[00:00] <daftykins> ooh mini dog
[00:00] <intrbiz> election night beer here
[00:02] <shauno> ch4's coverage is so cringy I'm embarrassed to admit I'm enjoying it
[00:02] <daftykins> different government bed night here :>
[00:03] <daftykins> have they cracked out a tag cloud yet?
[00:03] <daftykins> "here's some meaningless rubbish that keeps at least one extraneous staff member employed"
[00:04] <Seeker`> that exit poll certainly made things interesting
[00:04] <intrbiz> indeed
[00:07] <intrbiz> the change away from lib dem is severe so far
[00:07]  * popey returns from election-night dishwasher-empty-and-refill with election-night wine and election-night hula-hoops
[00:07] <popey> living the dream
[00:08] <daftykins> which flavour hula hoops? ... it's important
[00:08] <popey> ready salted
[00:08] <popey> first ones that came out of the cupboard
[00:08] <daftykins> :D
[00:09] <daftykins> i think McCoys reign #1 for me still
[00:09] <daftykins> of all such savoury snacks
[00:09] <popey> only saw them because I was putting away election-night chinese-take-away containers which live in the same cupboard as election-night hula-hoops
[00:09] <popey> now, if we're talking about the king of snacks...
[00:10] <daftykins> :O
[00:10] <popey> Snyders Hot Buffalo Wing
[00:10] <daftykins> i've not had chinese in a while again
[00:10] <popey> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0087C9S9C
[00:10] <popey> those bad boys
[00:10] <popey> or, indeed, girls
[00:11] <daftykins> :O that's worryingly impulse buy worthy
[00:11] <intrbiz> the jalapeno ones are good
[00:11] <popey> see also http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003SEHZF8
[00:11] <popey> yes
[00:11] <popey> *Bursting with flavour*
[00:12] <popey> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4khxeru5hs
[00:23] <intrbiz> interesting, turnout dropped from 77% in 1992 to 59% in 2001
[00:30] <ali1234> argh... stupid spi chip won't read when the cpu is in reset
[00:30] <ali1234> and the cpu keeps interrupting transfers
[00:31] <ali1234> going to have to do this the hardway then
[00:56] <Azelphur> Currently using NFS for file shares, thinking I should switch to something else over security concerns, it only locks to IP and I want to make my share writable, have this nightmare scenario of someone visiting me one time, jumping on my WiFi, and getting cryptolockered or something :)
[00:56] <Azelphur> Suggestions of alternative file sharing solutions, or ways to make NFS better?
[01:06] <ali1234> make a guest network
[01:07] <Azelphur> well, I want guests to have access to my network too, I have a RO share exposed so they can access stuff
[01:07] <Azelphur> and I generally want machines in the LAN to be able to talk to each other, just not be able to write to each other :)
[01:09] <directhex> use cifs!
[01:09] <directhex> finer grained access control than nfs
[01:10] <Azelphur> I just googled CIFS and I'm confused, I get lots of shit about Windows Shares?
[01:10] <Laney> here we go
[01:10] <Azelphur> is CIFS and SMB the same? XD
[01:10] <ali1234> yes
[01:10] <Azelphur> ah
[01:10] <ali1234> still better than NFS
[01:10] <Azelphur> ali1234: weird I'm sure it was you who told me to use NFS in the first place...
[01:10] <Azelphur> (this was years ago)
[01:10] <ali1234> i doubt it
[01:11] <ali1234> i tell people not to use NFS all the time
[01:11] <Azelphur> I see
[01:11] <Azelphur> so that's fairly unanimous then, stop using NFS and start using SMB/CIFS? any recommended docs to follow?
[01:12] <ali1234> i would probably go with a combination of upnp for read-only media shares, and sshfs for everything else
[01:12] <Azelphur> sshfs is slow as balls though
[01:12] <ali1234> use arcfour cipher then
[01:12] <ali1234> or "none", then it is still authenticated
[01:12] <Azelphur> also kinda want something XBMC/Kodi supports, so SMB ticks that box too
[01:13] <ali1234> so does upnp
[01:13] <Azelphur> uPnP can't write though :)
[01:13] <ali1234> how often do you edit your collection of pirate tv shows? ;)
[01:13] <Azelphur> ali1234: every time I watch, Kodi updates the NFO file with watched status.
[01:13] <ali1234> that's... stupid
[01:13] <Azelphur> that's... functional baring in mind I have multiple Kodi instances
[01:14] <daftykins> i've always used samba with kodi
[01:14] <daftykins> works just dandy :>
[01:14] <ali1234> yeah samba will work
[01:14] <Azelphur> just to clear up my head, what's the distinction here between CIFS and SMB?
[01:14] <ali1234> CIFS is like samba 2.0
[01:15] <Azelphur> so is there a CIFS server, or is it still called Samba?
[01:15] <ali1234> still called samba
[01:16] <Azelphur> righto, thanks :)
[01:16] <ali1234> the "standard" they are all based on is called server message block
[01:16] <ali1234> "samba" is just one implementation
[01:17] <intrbiz> jCIFS
[01:17] <intrbiz> being another
[06:07] <ali1234> okay i finally got a clean dump
[06:08] <ali1234> the rom has compressed sections which get uncompressed into ram by the first stage bootloader
[06:08] <ali1234> but i don't know what arch this thing is... it's probably mips
[06:08] <ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/11021051/ sections all start with "9ZZ"
[06:09] <ali1234> anyone recognize this compression?
[06:10] <ali1234> "zip2006" apparently
[06:11] <ali1234> it's not going to be complicated, the decompressor is like 300 bytes
[06:25] <ali1234> okay, found all the strings it looks for from the modem, no sign of the strings it sends though
[06:27] <ali1234> "Warring: SP1000 Decode code Load ERROR Please Contact sunpirit and reboot system"
[07:05] <diplo> Morning all
[07:11] <MooDoo> morning all
[07:14] <knightwise> Good mornin MooDoo , diplo
[07:14]  * knightwise is curious if he is going to get a TV Crew or the Newspaper at his house today
[07:23] <MooDoo> knightwise: why would you?
[07:28] <MooDoo> knightwise: are you anything to do with the election?
[07:36] <knightwise> no no :) i live in Belgium remember :)
[07:37] <knightwise> my company is celebrating its one year anniversary and we might get showcased in a news report about 'starting entrepreneurs'
[07:41] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[07:43] <knightwise> morning brobostigon
[07:43] <brobostigon> morning knightwise
[07:51] <MooDoo> knightwise: ah of course, well fingers crossed for you
[07:52] <brobostigon> shame about the election result, i would have hoped, the british public would have got rid of the right wing nutters we have in government.
[07:53] <MooDoo> yeah well that can go to #ukpolotics can't it :p
[07:53] <brobostigon> polotics? whats that?
[07:53] <knightwise> MooDoo: thanx :) kinda nervous about it.
[07:53] <MooDoo> typo, i'm a right wing nutter that can't type yet lol
[07:54] <knightwise> usually when i'm in front of a camera, I have a say in whats going to happen.
[07:54] <brobostigon> i see, MooDoo
[07:54] <brobostigon> mind you, there was much worse right wing nutters, that were standing as well.
[07:55]  * brobostigon is generalising, that people who are right wing, are also nutters,
[07:55] <MooDoo> :D
[08:08] <popey> morning
[08:09] <MooDoo> morning popey
[08:09] <popey> brobostigon: i agree with you. depressing isn't it
[08:09] <bashrc_> g'day
[08:09] <knightwise> mornin popey
[08:09] <brobostigon> very much so popey
[08:09] <knightwise> hey brobostigon
[08:09] <knightwise> hey bashrc_
[08:09] <brobostigon> hi knightwise
[08:12] <brobostigon> as my dad said, do people has such short memories about the conservatives in the 80's.
[08:12] <brobostigon> have*
[08:13] <davmor2> Morning all
[08:13] <brobostigon> morning davmor2
[08:15] <TwistedLucidity> brobostigon: Time to ditch first-past-the-post I reckon.
[08:15] <popey> its always been time to ditch fptp
[08:15] <MooDoo> morning davmor2
[08:15] <brobostigon> agreed.
[08:15] <TwistedLucidity> But then the peasants would have to be listened to!
[08:16] <davmor2> +1 on ditching fptp
[08:16] <popey> make it happen davmor2
[08:16] <popey> chop chop
[08:16] <TwistedLucidity> Can't have the proles deciding things. If they were any good at life, they'd all be rich and stuff.
[08:16]  * davmor2 touches the post that'll break it
[08:17] <TwistedLucidity> Hang on, who won South Thanet?
[08:18] <TwistedLucidity> Sorry "Thanet South"
[08:18] <foobarry> there are counting thanet south later this morning
[08:19] <popey> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results
[08:19] <TwistedLucidity> Oooo, the tension is palpable
[08:19] <popey> thats quite a sea of blue & yellow
[08:20] <foobarry> maggie simpson
[08:20] <TwistedLucidity> The swing to the SNP is a bit of a shock - why now *after* the referendum? It's too late
[08:20] <popey> they will re-run it
[08:21] <popey> maybe as soon as 2 years from now
[08:21] <TwistedLucidity> "You will keep voting until you make the correct choice!"
[08:21] <popey> indeed
[08:21] <TwistedLucidity> Isn't that how the EU works?
[08:21] <bashrc_> :)
[08:21] <popey> "once in a lifetime"
[08:22] <bashrc_> looks like a conservative landslide, with the libdems demolished
[08:22] <popey> however I actually think they should split off, wales too
[08:22] <popey> and cornwall.
[08:23] <popey> kernow
[08:25] <foobarry> before i was a no, now i'm a yes
[08:25] <foobarry> but they don't give us englishers the vote on scotland
[08:36] <TwistedLucidity> I think the North should split from from South; the economies are so different.
[08:37] <TwistedLucidity> London should aslo split - different again
[08:37] <TwistedLucidity> In fact, just keep splitting until we are our own countries.....
[08:38] <TwistedLucidity> "And the abassador from 23 Barnacle Grove is....Ms Amber Miggins."
[08:52] <davmor2> TwistedLucidity: no the germans tell europe what to do and they do it
[08:52] <TwistedLucidity> davmor2: Well, they are paying for it after all....
[09:02] <davmor2> where's jamestait already
[09:04] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Friday, and happy No Socks Day! 😃
[09:05] <foobarry> and VE day
[09:07] <davmor2> JamesTait: I have no socks already I must of known that or work from home
[09:08] <davmor2> foobarry: yeah which we don't celebrate because we won........wait a minute......we don't have Saint Georges day off and the French celebrate us winning......what's wrong with this Country :D
[09:10] <foobarry> maybe VE day could replace may day?
[09:10] <foobarry> the 2nd monday in may might be warmer too
[09:15] <JamesTait> foobarry, maybe it's just me, but it feels like the bank holidays could be spread out better.
[09:15] <bashrc_> indeed. More bank holidays should be invented
[09:15] <bashrc_> to fill the gaps
[09:16] <JamesTait> That could work. ☺
[09:19] <TwistedLucidity> Nah. We need to improve worker flexibility and productivity to boost the economoy and stimulate growth. Time to axe Bank Holidays.
[09:19] <TwistedLucidity> And weekends
[09:19] <nucc1> hi guys, anyone know how i can get that keyboard layout detector that runs during the installer to run now?
[09:20] <nucc1> i'm running an ubuntu vm on a mac and the keyboard is nigh unusable
[09:20] <nucc1> all the layouts I've tried seem to be doing nothing
[09:22]  * awilkins plugs in an external keyboard when he has to support a Mac
[09:23] <awilkins> The main reason I'll never buy a Mac - the special snowflake keyboard layout
[09:23] <awilkins> Why they think moving all the programmers characters like curly braces is a good idea I'll never know
[09:24] <TwistedLucidity> nucc1: Do you have an input switcher icon in the task bar? There was a bit of a problem with Ubuntu always using EN-us a while back, not sure if that affected layout as well.
[09:24] <nucc1> i do have a UK keyboard plugged in. it's docked
[09:24] <czajkowski> aloha
[09:24] <nucc1> it works fine on the mac itself, but the VM seems to be totally confused
[09:24] <nucc1> TwistedLucidity: yes, the switcher appears to be having no effect
[09:25] <nucc1> and to make it even more interesting, when i attempt to launch the control panel keyboard applet in ubuntu, it crashes and asks me to send a report
[09:25] <popey> czajkowski: you have an x1 carbon right?
[09:26] <TwistedLucidity> nucc1: You could try looking up how to change the input on an Ubuntu server; the same config changes/tools should work on desktop
[09:26] <TwistedLucidity> Unless other people have a better idea?
[09:28] <nucc1> no use. when i type: "a, ubuntu prints ä
[09:28] <nucc1> almost like the alt gr key is stuck, but it definitely isnt.
[09:32] <TwistedLucidity> How utterly bizzare!
[09:33] <nucc1> sudo dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration seems to be the magic
[09:33] <nucc1> just did that and rebooted and it's more sane. I chose mac from the list of available keyboards
[09:34] <nucc1> i chose a mac because it's got a retina screen, really that's the only reason. it's not proven to be any more reliable or stable than linux on bare hardware was for me
[09:35] <nucc1> well, and battery life is light years ahead of everything else.
[09:36] <foobarry> garage lost thanet south (as predicted)
[09:37] <MooDoo> 300 votes for al murray though lol
[09:37] <nucc1> conservatives seem to be in the lead according to the Goog
[09:38] <MooDoo> well in the lead, 5 away from majority
[09:38] <foobarry> the real al murray guy seems quite similar to nige
[09:39] <TwistedLucidity> nucc1: Lots of good things to be said about Apple hardware. Unfortunately there's lots of bad things to be said about it and their business practices as well.
[09:39] <foobarry> loves cricket, and the war, and drining pints
[09:39] <TwistedLucidity> For design and attention to detail, Apple are second-to-none. No denying that.
[09:39] <nigelb> me?
[09:39] <foobarry> may nigelb too
[09:39] <foobarry> maybe#
[09:39] <TwistedLucidity> Just a shame their WiFi support is such utter garbage (IME at least)
[09:40] <foobarry> looks like the seat was too tight to make silly votes like lib dem and al murray
[09:40] <foobarry> and al-zebabist nation of ooog
[09:41]  * TwistedLucidity ponders forming a single-issue party that will bring PR into law, then immediately stand-down and hold an election
[09:41] <awilkins> Yeah, I'd love to see magsafe connectors on regular laptops
[09:42]  * TwistedLucidity promises not to become power hungry.....
[09:42] <awilkins> As long as the module was user-replaceable because I hear the contacts wear out
[09:44] <directhex> magsafe is dead
[09:44] <directhex> all hail usb3.1 type c
[09:44] <TwistedLucidity> awilkins: Well it is replacable; buy a new Mac!
[09:44] <foobarry> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-32622224
[09:44] <foobarry> "For people to be working at night, weekends and holiday on emails is not good for the health of our country," the professor told the BBC.
[09:45] <nucc1> another schmuck with a mic :p
[09:45] <TwistedLucidity> I never check email when off-hours unless there was something urgent I couldn't finish and need some info.
[09:45] <nucc1> i check because i don't have a life.
[09:45] <TwistedLucidity> If there is a disaster, they have my number and can call
[09:46] <nucc1> and i like the fact that i can ignore it, because i'm not at work
[09:46] <czajkowski> popey: I do
[09:46] <czajkowski> my lovely pretty X1
[09:47] <TwistedLucidity> But I do get swamped with email. Must be upwards of a hundred a day - most of it irrelevant garbage I don't need.
[09:47] <TwistedLucidity> Marked "URGENT! MUST READ!"...usually from sales types where everything is urgent....
[09:47] <shauno> nucc1: the best solution I've found for the keyboard layout, is to look for an ISO US layout.  it's not perfect, but it's much more usable
[09:48] <awilkins> I like the notion that Atos is trying to phase out email altogether
[09:48] <awilkins> Other collaboration tools are definitely a better idea
[09:48] <shauno> (I've tried to find a better solution, but xkb is a dark dark place)
[09:48] <awilkins> Would like to see a hybrid between a ticket tracker, a wiki, and Google Wave
[09:49] <foobarry> "We need to ban emails [sent and received] within the same building," he said, advocating instead for face-to-face meetings and phone calls
[09:49] <foobarry> oh, thats just silly now
[09:49] <awilkins> I think things are slowly converging into that kind of thing
[09:49] <TwistedLucidity> awilkins: People who send documents by email (rather than placing them into the database) and then expect you to retain it in Outlook for X years need to be shot.
[09:49] <nucc1> foobarry: that's why i said "another schmuck with a mic".
[09:49] <awilkins> TwistedLucidity, If I was emperor of the company I'd ban document attachments in favour of cloud documents and other collaborative editing for a month
[09:49] <nucc1> TwistedLucidity: putting the document in a database/CMS doesn't necessarily make it easy to find.
[09:50] <shauno> indeed.  most our documents live in lotus scariness, which is why we just mail them
[09:50] <foobarry> the amount of allegedly technical IT people who struggle to use a wiki is unbelieveable
[09:50] <TwistedLucidity> Also, an email is a company record and subject to retention which may cause problems (unless you suddenly change your retention policy, err, I could cite some recent hacking scandals). Face-to-face convo's are off record.
[09:50] <awilkins> We had a document repository
[09:50] <nucc1> my solution is to simply put things i think i'll need in an email folder called "Reference"
[09:50] <awilkins> Literally no-one used it
[09:50] <foobarry> even linux people i've seen strugggle
[09:51] <TwistedLucidity> nucc1: It makes it very easy to find. But then, that's kinda my job.
[09:51] <shauno> our wiki only works because we've banned people from editing it.  there's two of us allowed, and everyone else mails us changes
[09:51] <foobarry> lol
[09:51] <foobarry> where's the internal documentation though?
[09:51] <foobarry> wiki is a godo collaborative toool for encourage people to document their own work
[09:51] <davmor2> south tharnet in 2000 vote majority for the conservatives
[09:52] <awilkins> Banning edits on wikis means you have the wrong culutre
[09:52] <awilkins> I got my users to write their own manuals on their wiki!
[09:52] <shauno> it's mostly because wikis suck
[09:52] <awilkins> Suck in terms of execution or concept?
[09:52] <TwistedLucidity> A wiki is a living thing - some some use cases you need a line in the sand, which is where documents are handy
[09:52] <shauno> in execution.  I haven't yet found one where I can trust a user to edit a table without having to go clean up after them
[09:53] <awilkins> TwistedLucidity, Gollum wiki? (or other wiki in a VCS)?
[09:53] <bashrc_> if wikis aren't actively curated then they tend to turn into spam over time
[09:54] <TwistedLucidity> awilkins: Hmm...not sure how that would work really. I guess one could to the auditing and e-signing in a VCS; but would be clunky.
[09:54] <shauno> especially anything that uses colspan or rowspan.  doubly-so anything that expects the user to add the correct values for same said
[09:54] <TwistedLucidity> Also, printing it would could be problematic I guess.
[09:54] <foobarry> shauno: i use twiki and enforce raw edit mode
[09:54] <foobarry> my "users" are technical though
[09:54] <awilkins> TwistedLucidity, For a while I was trying to foster the use of pull requests as a means of editing all our collaborative works
[09:55] <foobarry> markdown + github could be a next step though..
[09:55] <awilkins> TwistedLucidity, People use Markdown to write print books - don't see why printing it can't work
[09:55] <awilkins> And haven't you heard - print is dead ;-)
[09:55] <shauno> most of ours are hardware-technical, not markup-technical
[09:55] <TwistedLucidity> awilkins: I was more thinking of Contents, Intro, Chapters, Glossary, Index etc
[09:56] <TwistedLucidity> And then watermarkig etc etc
[09:56] <TwistedLucidity> Although that could probably be solved in other ways.
[09:56] <TwistedLucidity> Basically - arse covering.
[09:57] <shauno> we just don't print stuff.  printing is bad.  hardcopies are out of date, and usually immesurably so
[09:57] <awilkins> TwistedLucidity, Nothing stopping you having pages for those things, and a script that prints their links in sequence as the book
[09:58] <awilkins> But yes, print is worse than mailing documents around
[09:58] <foobarry> newsappers are out of date too
[09:58] <awilkins> They're both dead
[09:58] <foobarry> even todays freshest papers were old news
[09:59] <TwistedLucidity> awilkins: That'd be nice, but our customers would never work that way and as part of "dog fooding" we use our own stuff, so we don't work that way
[09:59] <TwistedLucidity> Maybe in 20 years or so they'll have moved forward.
[09:59] <TwistedLucidity> Everything is done in Outlook - it's depressing
[10:00] <bashrc_> Outlook. Ugh
[10:00] <awilkins> Yeah, we just had a meeting discussing collaborative work on a business prospect
[10:00] <TwistedLucidity> The resistance would also be "A wiki is not WYSIWYG", "A wiki doe snot integrate with Excel", "I can't draw graphs", "I can't edit off-line" and so on.
[10:00] <awilkins> We're going to stick it all in a spreadsheet
[10:01] <TwistedLucidity> Wikis are great, we have one, but they are not a universal tool for all documentation
[10:01] <TwistedLucidity> Although we vastly over-use Word docs; many of those would be much, much better in a good wiki (e.g. user help)
[10:01] <TwistedLucidity> But what do I know...
[10:02] <TwistedLucidity> ...setting up VisualStudio 2013 is an utter abhorrance...
[10:02] <awilkins> Not tried that in years :-)
[10:02] <awilkins> I just use SharpDevelop for all my Windows programming where possible now
[10:02] <awilkins> Not that I do much
[10:04] <nucc1> TwistedLucidity: visualstudio is still the best IDE out there… the IntelliJ stuff comes a close second
[10:04] <nucc1> xcode isn't bad too.
[10:04] <nucc1> Anjuta is just outrageously dumb
[10:04] <TwistedLucidity> nucc1: Yeah, that's the sad thing. It really is quite good. I use Eclipse mostly and that is becoming increasing dreadful
[10:06] <TwistedLucidity> Quite like IntelliJ; Maven support is far superior to Eclipse.
[10:06] <shauno> I tried eclipse recently.  it seems to suffer from gimp syndrome?
[10:06] <foobarry> need to google to remember how to do stuff?
[10:07] <shauno> eg it's perfectly capable, but the UI is the result of two blind guys having a foodfight
[10:07] <foobarry> gimp single window mode is default nowadays isn't it?
[10:07] <foobarry> still i struggle
[10:07] <intrbiz> what is wrong with the eclipse ui?
[10:08] <TwistedLucidity> Can't say the Eclipse GUI is any worse than IntelliJ or VS; I just change the defauls to suit my taste/needs. It seems to start out...sub-optimal
[10:09] <shauno> I couldn't find anything I was looking for.  I'll admit I didn't spent too long, it felt like Iwas getting into an argument that I didn't need to be in
[10:09] <TwistedLucidity> intrbiz: To start, the entire "workspace" concept as a flat structure
[10:09] <intrbiz> working sets
[10:09] <intrbiz> one thing I'd like to be able to configure, is line spacing, so I can have 1.5 spacing
[10:09] <intrbiz> projects down the left, code in the middle, console at bottom, basically covers it
[10:10] <TwistedLucidity> intrbiz: I should need to configure that - all the details are already in Maven; Eclipse should simply respect it.
[10:11] <TwistedLucidity> As IntelliJ does.
[10:11] <TwistedLucidity> It's not a deal-breaker, just an annoyance.
[10:11] <intrbiz> minor issue frankly
[10:12] <intrbiz> maven support could be better in a number of places
[10:12] <TwistedLucidity> Took me a sodding age to get Maven working, having to continually re-iterate what plug-in runs in what phase is a apin
[10:13] <TwistedLucidity> But there is one, massive failing with Eclipse; the compiler.
[10:13] <TwistedLucidity> It needs to burn
[10:13] <intrbiz> what is wrong with the eclipse compiler?
[10:13] <TwistedLucidity> (Or I need to find a way to separate the Eclipse output from the Maven compile)
[10:13] <TwistedLucidity> intrbiz: It can lead to non-running code appearing to compile and get deployed onto dev servers
[10:14] <TwistedLucidity> Due to the insertion of various bytecode shenanigans.
[10:14] <TwistedLucidity> Just use the defaul Java compiler and be done with it
[10:14] <intrbiz> well, that's what a build server is for
[10:15] <TwistedLucidity> Yes, it doesn't affect a nightly build; but it affects day-to-day work when you are pushing your current dev code to a server
[10:15] <intrbiz> personally only had one issue with eclipse compiler, which was being able to compile some Java 8 syntax that Oracles compiler could not
[10:15] <intrbiz> TwistedLucidity: if it's a bug in the compiler, report it
[10:16] <TwistedLucidity> Problem is, Eclipse will spit-out a .class for non-compiling code. If you then run Maven, it thinks that .class is valid and adds it into the .jar; boom!
[10:16] <TwistedLucidity> intrbiz: It's not a bug, it's by design!
[10:16] <intrbiz> ah, ok, well that's incremental
[10:16] <intrbiz> so, maven clean first
[10:16] <directhex> tl;dr: java is evil. switch to mono
[10:16] <TwistedLucidity> When we used Ant, we had the Eclipse and Ant output separate to avoid such an issue
[10:17] <TwistedLucidity> intrbiz: Can't, the build would take too long. Fixing this is on my ever growing list.....
[10:18] <TwistedLucidity> I am sure some of these problems are caused by how we manage our code...
[10:19] <nucc1> i'm looking at the code for ssldump and the darn thing seems to have two main() functions :(
[10:20] <TwistedLucidity> main() and mainerer()?
[10:20] <nucc1> both are main, in two different files
[10:20] <nucc1> one is in main.c, and appears to do little other than print help, and the other is in lex.yy.c
[10:24] <nucc1> seems like it was written on purpose to filter out dummies like myself
[10:24] <nucc1> and probably no surprise the program is now unmaintained
[10:27] <intrbiz> can't wireshark do what you need?
[10:27] <nucc1> i'm trying to see if i'm capable of patching ssldump to output JSON instead of the garbage it puts out currently
[10:27] <nucc1> quite often, it helps to get the data in text
[10:28] <nucc1> makes searching easier
[10:29] <nucc1> so this is me trying to workout the control flow so i can see where i need to edit. shouldn't be too hard, i imagine, if the program wasn't so opaque
[10:30] <nucc1> i just thought about it, and the hurdles I've had to jump to get here :)
[10:32] <nucc1> i often have to deal with ssldump generated output. usually i get a pre-master-secret file which is useful for wireshark, and then the text from ssldump too, which helps for finding out which connection you should be looking at.
[10:32] <nucc1> in wireshark, it's hard to find a specific message.
[10:32] <nucc1> in ssldump, it's easy with grep, but then more difficult to follow a particular conversation
[10:33] <nucc1> because the output of ssldump is a bit unpredictable and needlessly complicated, it's difficult to make an automated tool to arrange the output into conversations.
[10:33] <nucc1> i wrote one which works reasonably well, but in order to make it fool-proof, ssldump needs to use an output format that is more amenable to scripted processing
[10:34] <awilkins> I've had some things that the javac compiler can't parse and the Eclipse one can
[10:35] <awilkins> 'twas annnoying because it would test fine and not build on the CI server
[10:35] <awilkins> It was something really silly like comma placement in enums stretched over multiple lines
[10:35] <nucc1> ssldump output is not that simple.
[10:36] <nucc1> it uses two prefixes on each line to identify connection serial, and packet number.
[10:36] <nucc1> so for example: "1 10 …" means connection #1, packet #10 and what follows are some metadata
[10:36] <nucc1> the payload of "1 10" is then indented after that heading, using tabs.
[10:37] <nucc1> relatively easy for a human to deduce. slightly complex for a program but still possible.
[10:37] <nucc1> problem is, the output is not ordered according to connection, but rather in packet order, and we know packets have no sense of order
[10:37] <nucc1> and in some cases, ssldump will completely forget to indent the payload
[10:42] <TwistedLucidity> So Farage quit...huh...a politician who actually kept their word!
[10:43] <bashrc_> quit?
[10:43] <nucc1> that's what he wants you to think :p
[10:59] <JamesTait> TwistedLucidity, he sort-of-quit... but will consider whether to stand for the leader election in September. ☺
[10:59] <awilkins> Quick question to confirm : does the "encrypt my disk" in Ubuntu use LUKS on LVM or LVM on LUKS  (I think it's LVM on LUKS becuse a LUKS partition is being used as a physical volume in the ubuntu-vg volume group
[11:05] <OerHeks> awilkins, correct: http://askubuntu.com/questions/275921/what-algorithm-is-used-by-disk-utility-encryption
[11:09] <awilkins> OerHeks, Ta
[11:10] <awilkins> NOOOOOO, broke mah VM
[11:39] <zmoylan-pi> do you still have the sandbox it came in? :-)
[12:41] <awilkins> Struggling with maths in bas
[12:41] <awilkins> h
[12:41] <awilkins> Have a number in a shell script
[12:42] <awilkins> Trying to calculate that number + 512 + (THAT_NUMBER %512)
[12:42] <awilkins> Just running into lots of syntax errors
[12:42] <awilkins> Can do it on the command line, same stuff in a script chucks an error
[12:42] <awilkins> Arrgh
[12:44] <shauno> your script is using #!/bin/sh instead of /bin/bash?
[12:44] <awilkins> Nope
[12:44] <awilkins> Even explicitly running it as sudo bash <script>
[12:45] <awilkins> Finally got to a solution for having my SSD cache cake and encrypting it too
[12:45] <awilkins> Just wanted to automate it
[12:45] <shauno> fair enough.  was just curious because bash won't use bashisms if you call it sh
[12:45] <awilkins> Tried expr
[12:45] <awilkins> Tried $(( ))
[12:46] <awilkins> Can't get either working
[12:46] <awilkins> Ahaa
[12:47] <awilkins> Seems to work now
[12:49] <awilkins> Narrarh
[12:49] <awilkins> Still syntax errors on the target box
[12:50] <awilkins> That is deeply deeply annoying
[13:34] <foobarry> thunderbird defaults to bing search when selecting text
[13:35] <foobarry> the upshot is that i copy and paste into google
[13:35] <foobarry> so instead of less revenue, they get zero
[13:37] <zmoylan-pi> i think you can change it but i stopped using thunderbird yonks back
[13:40] <zmoylan-pi> not really a fan of evolution but still using it for now.
[13:41] <foobarry> evo feels so clunky!
[13:41] <foobarry> and horrid ui
[13:41] <foobarry> IMHO
[13:41] <foobarry> geary looks nice, but never moved over
[13:41] <zmoylan-pi> i use claws in imap mode for my ancient netbook and it's light and fairly responsive but i don't think i'd throw my 5-6gb of mail at it...
[13:42]  * bashrc_ uses Mutt
[13:42] <zmoylan-pi> i couldn't get mutt or alpine to work using the online tutorials.  i might give it a bash again
[13:59] <awilkins> Just in case anyone is interested : http://askubuntu.com/questions/620480/how-to-install-ubuntu-with-both-disk-encryption-and-ssd-caching
[14:01] <awilkins> I was going to bounty it but I imagine I'll be selecting my own answer...
[14:16] <Myrtti> zmoylan-pi: turns out claws is a bit unsecure, too
[14:17] <Myrtti> https://tails.boum.org/security/claws_mail_leaks_plaintext_to_imap/
[14:20] <diddledan> morning
[14:20] <diddledan> I go to bed on the exit polls suggesting a hung parliament and wake up to news that tories got a majority government
[14:22] <MooDoo> diddledan: yup indeed
[14:23] <diddledan> and all the leaders are gone
[14:23] <diddledan> seems everyone and their dog has resigned
[14:23] <MooDoo> well it was a pretty spectacular defeat for them
[14:28] <diddledan> last declaration is in - another tory gain from libdeb
[14:28] <foobarry> lib who?
[14:28] <MooDoo> wow i've had paulmellors.net 11 years now :D
[14:29] <popey> ooh, next week I'll have had popey.com for 16 years!
[14:29] <popey> blimey
[14:29] <popey> time flies
[14:30] <MooDoo> was just going to say popey.com was created 1999 lol
[14:30] <MooDoo> beat me again
[14:30] <popey> heh
[14:30] <diddledan> nice
[14:35] <awilkins> Ugh
[14:35] <awilkins> 331 sears
[14:35] <awilkins> seats
[14:36] <foobarry> problem?
[14:37] <MooDoo> FLAWLESS VICTORY!!!!
[14:37] <MooDoo> :)
[14:37]  * awilkins is a big lefty
[14:37] <diddledan> foobarry: I'm guessing libdeb is a library for manipulating debian packages? :-p
[14:38] <awilkins> Or how Nick Clegg is announced when someone has a headcold
[14:38] <diddledan> awilkins: is that like a big softie?
[14:39] <diddledan> I ask because I'm definitely a big softie
[14:40] <awilkins> I just want to curl up for a bit until the horrible Tories go away
[14:40] <ali1234> the only choice now is accelerationism
[14:40] <MooDoo> awilkins: the 5 year big sleep
[14:40] <foobarry> awilkins: did you vite blair?
[14:41] <awilkins> foobarry, I did
[14:41] <foobarry> its no different really
[14:41] <foobarry> saw a stat earlier
[14:41] <awilkins> Actually, not sure I voted that time around
[14:41] <foobarry> new labour 3-0
[14:41] <awilkins> I was moving so much I didn' t have the opportunity to register
[14:41] <foobarry> old labour 0-6
[14:41] <foobarry> over last 40 years or so
[14:44] <shauno> I honestly have no idea how anyone decides between them
[14:45] <foobarry> stealing £173k in the expenses scandal should have helped people decide
[14:45] <foobarry> but it didn't
[14:45] <foobarry> people have short memories
[14:46] <foobarry> or are stupid
[14:50] <shauno> just seems to me you get the choice between morally bankrupt or financially bankrupt.  it's really not much of a choice
[14:51]  * bashrc_ thinks Labour and Tories are basically the same party with different coloured ties
[14:53] <awilkins> I would actually like to see a Green government
[14:53] <shauno> my understanding is that the tories have evil plans to reduce the debt, labour have no plans.  the green party are hilariously crazy, and ukip are scarily crazy.
[14:53] <awilkins> Until they start making people eat raw spelt instead of beef, of course
[14:54] <awilkins> The Tories evil plans are nothing to do with reducing debt
[14:54] <awilkins> THeir evil plans are more along the lines of making sure as much public infrastructure is owned by their mates by the end of their term as possible
[14:55] <awilkins> The Greens just seem crazy because they are sane people standing against the background of UK politics
[14:56] <awilkins> UKIP are just Tories but they openly admit they don't like foreigners, so they have to have policies of deporting them instead of employing them as maids and builders
[14:56] <awilkins> and nurses and doctors
[14:56] <foobarry> and because they live in cloud cuckoo land
[14:56] <foobarry> (greens)
[14:56] <awilkins> foobarry, I agree that Greens could do with a dose of realism
[14:57] <ali1234> i think the election results show that UKIP's support is not Tory at all
[14:57] <awilkins> Their energy policy needs to accept that we need nuclear (fusion)
[14:57] <awilkins> Their support might not be Tory but their MPs are basically Tories
[14:57] <ali1234> their politicians might be
[14:57] <awilkins> Nigel was a flipping banker
[14:58] <awilkins> They're just Tories who figured out how to get the working man to vote for them
[14:58] <ali1234> but lets face it all politicians have more in common with each other than they do with their supporters
[14:59] <awilkins> The Green policies were very much in line with what people actually want when you ask them
[14:59] <awilkins> Keep the NHS public? 85%
[14:59] <awilkins> Renationalise rail? 65%, etc
[14:59] <popey> what people want till you tell them the consequences
[14:59] <awilkins> And they were the proponent of the Universal Basic Income which is an issue that needs examining seriously
[15:00] <popey> and the cost
[15:00] <bashrc_> although I don't really like any of them many of the green's policies make more sense to me
[15:00] <shauno> yeah, the cost is the elephant in the room for most of that
[15:00] <shauno> they have a lot of really neat ideas that they couldn't possibly afford to implement
[15:00] <awilkins> The cost is the cost of buying them back from the corporations who presumably will want to make a profit on something they bought from us for a loss....
[15:01] <bashrc_> having spent a lot of time inside the disaster that is the current unemployment system and having observed its many pathologies in the longer term I don't see much alternative to universal basic income
[15:01] <bashrc_> unless mass starvation becomes a policy aim
[15:01] <foobarry> the further you are from govt, the more populist and contradictory your policies can be
[15:01] <awilkins> In the case of rail you could pull the same trick they are doing on the NHS - cut funding to railtrack until the network grinds to a halt and the operating companies are worthless and then buy them for a couple of quid and a packet of rolos
[15:02] <awilkins> Shame about the disruption of the transit network though
[15:02] <shauno> (and I completely disagree with the greens on trident, which kinda flavours things too)
[15:02] <awilkins> Yeah. If you nuke things, everyone loses.
[15:03] <awilkins> The only people interested in nuking people now are nutters - e.g. the kind of people MAD doesn't apply to because they're, well, MAD.
[15:03]  * bashrc_ has noticed that the cold war ended some time ago
[15:03] <ali1234> awilkins: i think you have far too much faith in humanity
[15:03] <shauno> it did?  I seem to recall russia invading europe disturbingly recently
[15:04] <popey> not exactly cold
[15:04] <shauno> but I think that's the crux of my problem with scrapping it.  when we bought trident, in what, 1980, 81, we didn't imagine the wall was going to fall
[15:05] <foobarry> everyone needs more ubuntu
[15:05] <foobarry> whether the OS or the african word
[15:05] <shauno> let alone that everything would get rather asymetric in 2001, or that Putin would come back 10 years later
[15:05] <shauno> not renewing trident would be making some rather brave assumptions about the next 30-40 years
[15:06] <nucc1> people tend to forget that little powerless countries get trampled upon
[15:06] <foobarry> greens reckons we haven't been invaded since 1941 (forgotten about 7/7 etc), so we should disband the army and do town twinning
[15:07] <nucc1> we may have space travel and satellite communications now, but the dynamics of the roman empire era still very much apply in world politics
[15:07] <nucc1> you have to be powerful and scary in order to be undisturbed
[15:07] <shauno> they could have said the same thing in 1910.  and it would have sounded believable.  30-40 years is a long time.
[15:07] <awilkins> 7/7 .. how does that count as an invasion
[15:07] <foobarry> it means the nature of warfare has changed
[15:07] <awilkins> And how does a nuclear deterrent stop terrorism?
[15:08] <nucc1> it stops shenanigans like Russia-Ukrain
[15:08] <foobarry> and you don't think of threat as an army amassing at calais but something else
[15:08] <nucc1> Ukraine*
[15:08] <awilkins> "Hey, if you put a bomb in one of our bins we'll turn your country into a shiny glass mirror" isn't a threat with any credibility
[15:08] <awilkins> nucc1, Didn't though, did it?
[15:09] <foobarry> nuclear weapons are there because others have them
[15:09] <shauno> well there's a hypothetical.  if ukraine hadn't given up their nukes udner the bucharest agreement, would russia have invaded to readily?
[15:09] <nucc1> because Ukraine is a little guy with no power, awilkins
[15:09] <nucc1> do you think Putin could do that to the UK right now?
[15:09] <foobarry> unless everybody throws away their gun at a standoff then someone might get hurt
[15:09] <awilkins> Why did they give up the nukes if they represented power?
[15:09] <awilkins> Probably because they cost too much
[15:10] <shauno> to de-escalate the russian border, and because the US & UK said they'd protect them if anything went wrong
[15:10] <shauno> but apparently because it was an "agreement" and not a "treaty" we don't have to
[15:11] <shauno> which for me, is the whole problem with saying "we don't need them because we're friends with _".  when push comes to shove, X doesn't want to war with russia either.
[15:11] <popey> 7/7 bombers were british, shall we nuke leeds?
[15:11] <ali1234> it would probably improve the place
[15:11] <foobarry> lol
[15:12] <foobarry> 7/7 shows that wars is complicated
[15:12] <foobarry> and nukes and armies and intelligence and guns are probably needed , maybe a navy too
[15:13] <foobarry> greens can also merrrily claim that surveillance will be transparaent and lawful, and win some hipster vote, but all parties will claim that ghcq are lawful..if not they will change the law to make it lawful...
[15:14] <popey> meanwhile http://cutelifebot.github.io/sierpinski/ is a good way to make your eyes go funny
[15:16] <ali1234> doesn't work
[15:17] <foobarry> my wife just spammed twitter with cats and meerkats to make the politics go away
[15:17] <foobarry> worked for 10 seconds
[15:20] <zmoylan-pi> well uk has never had a expectation of privacy law.  they've spied on ireland for yonks
[15:20] <zmoylan-pi> not that it did much good
[15:20] <foobarry> https://twitter.com/SoccerrProblems/status/595756019617239041
[15:20] <foobarry> was that deliverate?
[15:30] <intrbiz> Upsert support just committed to PostgreSQL :) (devel version)
[16:14] <nucc1> isn't 15.04 supposed to handle high dpi displays better?
[16:15] <directhex> still app-dependent
[16:15] <nucc1> well, the whole desktop is unreadable
[16:16] <nucc1> and when i try to set display settings, it just tells me "org.gnome.settingsdaemon was not provided by any .service files" :/
[16:17] <nucc1> actually the "scale for menu and title bars" is doing what it says. everything else is too tiny
[16:18] <awilkins_> Hey, is USB Creator broken in Vivid?
[16:21] <davmor2> awilkins: it might be I haven't tried it why?
[16:23] <ali1234> awilkins_: yes
[16:23] <ali1234> it was broken in U as well
[16:23] <directhex> nucc1: changing the "scale for menu and title bars" slider doesn't change the window contents? e.g. the display window itself?
[16:24] <awilkins_> Hrrmph
[16:24] <ali1234> luckily there is absolutely no reason to use it at this point
[16:24] <ali1234> just dd the ISO
[16:24]  * awilkins_ just dd-ed the image to the key
[16:24] <nucc1> directhex: it isn't. it's only changing the title-bars
[16:24] <directhex> nucc1: sounds like breakage at your end - it scales for me.
[16:24] <awilkins_> Re-installing my machine
[16:24] <awilkins_> Need full disk encryption for the corporate security policy
[16:25] <awilkins_> Thanks to a bit of graft and testing with VMs I can have disk encryption AND ssd caching :-)
[16:25] <nucc1> directhex: let me re-install "ubuntu-gnome-desktop"
[16:26] <nucc1> I started out with ubuntu server, and then installed the GUI as I used more and more of it and decided to just make it full-fledged
[16:30] <nucc1> that and reboot looks to have helped. thanks.
[16:30] <nucc1> time to go see the world.
[16:40] <daftykins> awilkins_: did you throw up an article on it? :D
[16:44] <davmor2> why would you throw up on an article?
[16:45] <daftykins> to add flavour
[16:46] <diddledan> mm, lumpy
[16:46] <davmor2> daftykins: just read articles on carrots if that is what you want to see :D
[16:46] <diddledan> why does it always have carrots in it even if you haven't eaten carrots in forever?
[16:47] <zmoylan-pi> so you know it's puke on the ground and not something somebody spilled
[16:47] <daftykins> can't say i've seen carrots :>
[16:47] <diddledan> vegetable soup doubles quite nicely
[16:48] <davmor2> only I could mis-read a line and trigger a conversation about vomit :D
[16:48] <diddledan> \o/
[16:48] <zmoylan-pi> it's a friday. some of us will be weaving around it tonight or tomorrow...
[16:49] <diddledan> that presupposes that we have social lives
[16:50] <zmoylan-pi> een if you're just walking home...
[16:50] <zmoylan-pi> *even
[16:50] <diddledan> that presupposes we're likely to leave the house
[16:50] <diddledan> :-p
[16:50] <zmoylan-pi> house i grew up in had 5 pubs within 2 minutes walk
[16:50] <diddledan> that presupposes we grew up
[16:50] <ali1234> that saturday morning smell...
[16:51] <zmoylan-pi> occasionly had to scrub the foot path in front of the house...
[19:01] <foobarry> cant believe how weak the speakers on this laptop are
[19:02] <foobarry> can't hardly hear a programme
[19:02] <foobarry> thank goodness for vlc 125% mode
[19:12] <diddledan> foobarry: what exactly _is_ 100% volume, anyway
[19:12] <diddledan> "our amps are 1 louder because they go to 11"
[19:12] <foobarry> it works!
[19:12] <zmoylan-pi> his go to 12.5 :-)
[19:12] <diddledan> I'm assuming it's akin to 0% being absolute silence, where 100% is absolute loud
[19:13] <foobarry> movie player is too quiet at 100$
[19:13] <foobarry> 110%
[19:13] <foobarry> arrgh
[19:13] <foobarry> 100%
[19:15] <foobarry> it amplifies the sound , it works!
[19:15] <diddledan> foobarry: how can you go louder than loud tho
[19:15] <diddledan> 100% is everything
[19:15] <diddledan> you can't have more than everything
[19:16] <foobarry> you can!
[19:16] <diddledan> in which case why doesn't player X have more than 100% the same way vlc does?!
[19:16] <diddledan> vlc is just lying
[19:17] <foobarry> no, its real
[19:17] <foobarry> it performs E.Q. on the sound
[19:17] <diddledan> if it goes from 0 to 125% then it's really going 0-100% where what they're labelling 125 is actually 100
[19:17] <foobarry> no, i don't believe so
[19:18] <foobarry> in the same way as pushing all your graphic eq to max or min you get more or less volume
[19:18] <foobarry> you lose a bit of quality and balance
[19:18] <diddledan> exactly, I'm trying to play devil's advocate - what _is_ 100% volume anyway and why can't we have more in player X
[19:18] <diddledan> if vlc can give me more why can't player X
[19:18] <foobarry> it could
[19:19] <foobarry> maybe it already can
[19:19] <diddledan> so why doesn't it
[19:19] <foobarry> because vlc is awesome
[19:19] <diddledan> you mentioned your movie player was too quiet so you used vlc - the other movie player is giving you "100% volume" so if there is a possibility of it actually going louder why doesn't it give you the option!
[19:20] <diddledan> why have an arbitrary "100%"
[19:20] <foobarry> VLC allows amplification of the INPUT above the sound that was decoded. This is just like replay gain, broken codecs, badly recorded files or post-amplification and can lead to saturation.
[19:20] <foobarry> VLC does not (and cannot) modify the OUTPUT volume to destroy the speakers. VLC is a Software using the OFFICIAL platforms APIs.
[19:21] <foobarry> you will get some clipping maybe
[19:21] <foobarry> not noticeable on crappy speakers anyyway
[19:30] <ali1234> diddledan: pulseaudio goes up to 153*153%*
[19:31] <diddledan> \o/
[19:31] <diddledan> ali1234: now we're talking!
[19:31] <diddledan> ali1234: is that the definition of "absolute noise"?
[19:31] <ali1234> also, anything above 100% is actually amplifying the signal before playing it
[19:31] <shauno> I'm not sure I want to know how ali found that out
[19:31] <diddledan> i.e. the inverse of "absolutely silence"
[19:32] <ali1234> shauno: it goes up to 153% on the per-application volume control, and then 153% on the master volume control
[20:50] <diddledan> LaunchPad.net should have rewards (medals) for necromongers
[20:50] <diddledan> specifically I've been messing with one of czajkowski's from way back in 2012! :-p (https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/1000320)