[10:08] <wolfger> good morning
[12:18] <cmaloney> Good morning
[12:18] <cmaloney> I'm in training at the moment
[12:19] <cmaloney> having remote training == A+
[12:31] <mrgoodcat> morning
[12:47] <mrgoodcat> anybody here have an ergo keyboard they're really happy with?
[12:51] <phwelo> gm.  kinda cool that there's a MI linux channel on the network that i was already idling daily..
[12:52] <mrgoodcat> well hello
[12:53] <phwelo> ..thinking that i'll probably join MUG as well since it takes place right behind the building i work at :)
[12:56] <mrgoodcat> They'd love to have you. I've been to a couple meetings but my school schedule rarely lets me get over there
[12:57] <phwelo> the topics look pretty beneficial.  would have liked to have learned about it in time to attend the bind presentation
[12:58] <mrgoodcat> think that was last month right?
[12:59] <mrgoodcat> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NmklxfOnfo
[12:59] <mrgoodcat> and there you go
[12:59] <mrgoodcat> DNS in the Enterprise
[12:59] <phwelo> already subscribed and put it in my list ;)
[13:00] <phwelo> ty kindly though of course!
[13:00] <mrgoodcat> I don't attend but I try to watch the videos when i get time
[13:01] <phwelo> i'd never get approval to switch from windows DNS, but would love to get rid of my home windows server dns/dhcp.
[13:02] <mrgoodcat> home windows server?
[13:02] <mrgoodcat> what posessed you to set up a windows server at home?
[13:06] <cmaloney> mrgoodcat: You might want to wait until next week / next CHC. Rick has more experience with ergo keyboards
[13:06] <cmaloney> also I think greg-g uses ergo keyboards.
[13:06] <cmaloney> I personally can't stand them.
[13:07] <cmaloney> phwelo: We're always looking for new members / talks. :)
[13:07] <cmaloney> he nice thing is we meet every month
[13:07] <phwelo> i began my career as a windows admin, but have been moving more and more toward linux as time passes.  at this point i'm fairly unhappy with microsoft's server offering altogether
[13:07] <cmaloney> the fun part is we meet every month and need content. :)
[13:07] <cmaloney> Cool!
[13:08] <cmaloney> Yeah, I've been pleased with Linux as a server (and as a desktop. ;))
[13:08] <mrgoodcat> we have a windows domain controller at work
[13:08] <mrgoodcat> its about the only thing i use windows for by choice
[13:08] <phwelo> i really prefer it as a server offering.  honestly i still go back and forth on my laptop.  right now i'm doing the XFCE thing and it's decent
[13:08] <cmaloney> Yeah, we're doing the same thing with Linux / Samba at work
[13:09] <cmaloney> phwelo: That's cool. I"m using Unity, but I've always been partial to the Mac.
[13:09] <cmaloney> phwelo: Did you join the Meetup group for MUG?
[13:09] <mrgoodcat> I like unity
[13:09] <phwelo> cmaloney: i agree.  i can't figure out this hackintosh business on my current computer though and my macbook has gone senile
[13:09] <mrgoodcat> but i use i3 right now
[13:10] <cmaloney> mrgoodcat: I wish I could use a tiling window manager without wanting to hurt myself.
[13:10] <cmaloney> closest I've come is using tmux
[13:11] <phwelo> cmaloney: i haven't signed up for anything yet, the page seems to still show the previous meeting (if that's even what you're referring to)
[13:11] <phwelo> also tmux4lyfe
[13:11] <cmaloney> http://www.meetup.com/Michigan-usr-group-Linux-Users-Group-in-Farmington-Hills/
[13:12] <cmaloney> phwelo: Yeah, I've been slacking on getting hte next meeting notice out
[13:12] <mrgoodcat> cmaloney: what's the issue with tiling WMs?
[13:12] <cmaloney> The next meeting will cover Nagios, along with a discussion on how to preserve data for future generations
[13:12] <phwelo> is all of the content relating to debian-based linux or does it go whichever way the presenter chooses?
[13:12] <cmaloney> mrgoodcat: The issue is me. :)
[13:12] <mrgoodcat> lol
[13:13] <phwelo> cmaloney: nagios is one of the only topics i'm quite versed on, so maybe i'll come in handy right away!
[13:13] <cmaloney> phwelo: We cover mostly Linux these days, but we cover FreeBSD as well
[13:13] <cmaloney> phwelo: Awesome!
[13:13] <cmaloney> Anything UNIX is fair game.
[13:13] <phwelo> sorry, i meant RHL based vs Debian based
[13:14] <cmaloney> Right, I'm trying to say (obliquely) that we're more than just Ubuntu / Debian
[13:14] <cmaloney> or even just Linux
[13:14] <jrwren> if rhl v. debian is an issue, you need to step up your game :p
[13:14] <cmaloney> If Sun does something interesting then we'll cover it.
[13:15] <cmaloney> We also cover development as well as administation
[13:15] <cmaloney> I'm a developer with strong devops tendencies (Working with Ansible at the moment)
[13:15] <phwelo> sweet, looking forward.
[13:15] <jrwren> unless by RHL v. Debian you really mean ancient kernel v. newer kernel :p
[13:16] <jrwren> cmaloney: you know ansible?!?!  cool, imma ask U stuffs
[13:16] <cmaloney> jrwren: I'm targeting CentOS right now. It's like I'm wearing bell-bottoms
[13:16] <cmaloney> jrwren: I'm just learning right now. ;)
[13:16] <phwelo> jrwren: yeah for debian i have package names memorized, i know the structure, i know where my configs live, etc etc etc
[13:17] <mrgoodcat> I did the LFS project once
[13:17] <jrwren> phwelo: ah, familiarity. What is that saying about familiarity?
[13:17] <phwelo> but i know that a lot of commercial entities use RHL
[13:18] <mrgoodcat> I haven't personally seen RHEL at a workplace yet
[13:18] <mrgoodcat> idk if i'm an edge case though
[13:18] <cmaloney> Yeah, I've only seen CentOS
[13:18] <mrgoodcat> i've seen cent and debian
[13:18] <cmaloney> but then again I work at places that are allergic to support contracts for OSes
[13:18] <mrgoodcat> and one place that used ubuntu servers
[13:20] <phwelo> true, mostly centos, i'm lumping debian/ubuntu and rhel/centos/fedora
[13:20] <cmaloney> We have some Ubuntu machines acting as servers.
[13:20] <cmaloney> Yeah, I'd regard RHEL as an anomaly.
[13:20] <phwelo> but i'm aiming for the west coast and see a huge trend of centos unfortunately
[13:20] <cmaloney> if I saw Oracle Linux in the wild I'd really freak out
[13:21] <phwelo> cmaloney: i've seen it in job postings recently! yuck
[13:21] <cmaloney> Oracle Linux? Yipes.
[13:22] <cmaloney> CentOS isn't bad by any stretch; just feels clunky to me compared with Debian
[13:22] <phwelo> but yeah my wife says i'd better make some friends so i'm going to multitask and socialize while learning stuff.  glad to make you guys' acquaintance
[13:22] <cmaloney> And it's o-l-d.
[13:22] <cmaloney> Hey, we all started new. :)
[13:23] <phwelo> i always hit dependency issues that i can't use the package manager to meet, and it annoys the heck out of me
[13:23] <jrwren> ubuntu makes a great server os.
[13:23] <mrgoodcat> yea i like ubuntu server
[13:23] <jrwren> ubuntu-cloud-image is the most used OS in the cloud.
[13:23] <mrgoodcat> its what i use for my personal servers
[13:23] <jrwren> I was very surprised to see that Jono quote recently where he implied ubuntu desktop and debian server.
[13:23] <phwelo> what's different between the cloud-image and servers?
[13:24] <jrwren> phwelo: about 600MB :)
[13:24] <cmaloney> They're minimal images then?
[13:24] <jrwren> phwelo: cloud-image is about 400MB used deployed.  200MB compressed images.
[13:24] <phwelo> lol, isn't that like an 800m iso (server)?
[13:24]  * cmaloney doesn't know. :)
[13:24] <jrwren> cmaloney: they are minimal with some special cloud stuff like cloud-init
[13:24] <cmaloney> Ah, OK.
[13:25] <phwelo> do they have orchestration of any sort built in?
[13:25] <cmaloney> I've been playing with LXC and wondered why CentOS didn't ship with things like Tar
[13:25] <cmaloney> so something tells me it's more about getting the image down in size than anything
[13:25] <cmaloney> phwelo: You just entered the Juju sales zone
[13:26] <cmaloney> jrwren works on Juju
[13:26] <cmaloney> smoser works on Ubuntu Server
[13:26] <phwelo> oh neat
[13:26] <jrwren> even still, juju isn't built into ubuntu cloud img
[13:26] <jrwren> so I'd answer "no"
[13:27] <jrwren> and that orchestration with puppet, chef or juju can be added trivially and others, likely trivially, but I don't nkow
[13:27] <jrwren> cmaloney: really? it doesn't have tar?
[13:27] <phwelo> that's kind of the benefit to that crowd, how easy it is to add them to a minion/target/whatever
[13:28] <phwelo> alright jrwren i'm going to bite, does juju do baremetal provisioning?
[13:29] <mrgoodcat> oh boy
[13:29] <mrgoodcat> juju is the best
[13:29] <jrwren> phwelo: yes, it does.
[13:30] <jrwren> phwelo: it uses a provider model. maas is one of the provider models
[13:30] <phwelo> strangely enough, there aren't a ton of options that do
[13:31] <jrwren> its cool doing bare betal deploys, the image install might take a bit longer, but once you are running, OMG it is so fast.
[13:31] <jrwren> its easy to forget how slow cloud instances are.
[13:31] <phwelo> what does it use for the pxe part, or is it built ground-up?
[13:31] <jrwren> small, medium, large, SOOO SLOW!!!
[13:32] <jrwren> phwelo: its all open source. you can go use maas yourself right now.
[13:32] <jrwren> phwelo: it is an automation of the debian/ubuntu network boot stuff that has always been there, with a nice web frontend
[13:33] <phwelo> total tangent, but does ubuntu have a presence in s/e mi?
[13:33] <jrwren> phwelo: you are in it.
[13:34] <cmaloney> jrwren: At least the image I am using with LXC doesn't have tar. I had to include it.
[13:34] <phwelo> ah man i need to suck up, my long term goal is to get the F out of the financial world and into a legit tech company (without losing an ungodly chunk of salary in the transition)
[13:34] <jrwren> cmaloney: did you use the lxc-download template and choose centos from the list?
[13:34] <jrwren> phwelo: financial world is pretty great from what I hear.
[13:35] <cmaloney> I did lxc-create -r centos --name foo -- R 6
[13:35] <cmaloney> also: Legit tech companies are pretty scattershot.
[13:35] <cmaloney> some are awesome. Most are fair to good.
[13:36] <cmaloney> and some are pretty terrible.
[13:36] <phwelo> cmaloney: kind of like any business really i'm sure
[13:36] <cmaloney> Yep
[13:37] <cmaloney> I worked in the automotive industry for a long while. The corporate lines were pretty heavy into Microsoft. Fortunately I was able to carve out some Linux
[13:37] <cmaloney> depends on the manager and their willingness to buck the trend.
[13:37] <cmaloney> phwelo: Are you at Quicken Loans?
[13:38] <jrwren> oh right, that is financial. :)
[13:38] <phwelo> getting into a company who's developing tech serves a bunch of goals for me tho.  i want to work around people who i can learn from, i want budget going into IT, I want a freaking test environment, I want to be able to sleep at night, and i want to never tell my children i work for a bank
[13:39] <phwelo> nah not quicken.  though nearly half of the people you meet in metro detroit seem to work there!
[13:39] <cmaloney> phwelo: I can sympathize
[13:39] <cmaloney> I'm in marketing. :)
[13:39] <cmaloney> Though I'm in a company where the current management is exceptionally clueful about tech
[13:40] <cmaloney> at least as it relates to me
[13:40] <cmaloney> But yeah, getting an opportunity to work with folks who are making the stuff you use is awesome.
[13:41] <cmaloney> I worked at Sourceforge for a bit. Worked with the guy who maintains rsync.
[13:41] <cmaloney> and worked with mramm who maintained Turbogears for a while.
[13:42] <phwelo> idk turbogears, but rsync is a pretty big deal!
[13:42] <phwelo> can't wait til the kids are a little older and i can work on a project on the side :)
[13:42] <cmaloney> I can't say you won't be able to sleep at night though
[13:42] <cmaloney> s/won't/will/
[13:43] <jrwren> phwelo: Shore Mortgage?
[13:44] <cmaloney> heh, we're going down the list. ;)
[13:44] <jrwren> more interested if we have any common aquaintences
[13:44] <cmaloney> Same
[13:45] <cmaloney> Only other one I can think of is the auto-financials.
[13:45] <jrwren> cmaloney: so that centos lxc template is kind of cool. it doesn't look to install based on an image at all. It creates a filesystem and installs packages. It is its own installer.
[13:45] <cmaloney> yeah, it's pretty strange / neat how it works
[13:45] <cmaloney> when it asked me to install alien I figured it was going into strange and wonderful worlds.
[13:46] <cmaloney> and it looks like it updates every image and doesn't cache.
[13:46] <cmaloney> or rather it caches and does the update each install
[13:46] <cmaloney> (somewhere in there is what I mean)
[15:46] <jrwren> http://stevekinney.github.io/face-theremin/
[15:47] <cmaloney> http://helb.github.io/goodbye-sourceforge/
[15:48] <cmaloney> jrwren: That's pretty awesome
[16:16] <phwelo> kinda interesting that all it took was one large project pointing it out, when they've been doing the same thing for a year or two without much noise
[16:39] <cmaloney> GIMP is the first project to make noise about it because it's the first project that was appropriated despite their objections
[16:41] <jrwren> yes, my understanding is that they did it often without notice, but would undo it if asked.
[16:41] <jrwren> now they aren't undoing it
[16:42] <phwelo> i'd imagine the first point to be enough to move your project
[16:42] <cmaloney> well, there's nuance
[16:43] <cmaloney> they have an ad-sponsored program for revenue sharing
[16:43] <cmaloney> via the downloaders
[16:43] <cmaloney> GIMP refused and abandoned the project
[16:43] <cmaloney> SF.net doesn't delete projects if they release files
[16:43] <cmaloney> so after 18 months of abandonment they picked up the project
[16:44] <cmaloney> where it gets douchey is they continued to mirror GIMP Windows packages and added the adware on top
[16:44] <cmaloney> (which is my understanding)
[16:45] <jrwren> seems close to a GPL violation. sad that it isn't.
[16:46] <cmaloney> It's not GPL since it's binary distro
[16:46] <cmaloney> the original project was binary distro
[16:46] <cmaloney> again, some nuance in there
[16:50] <jrwren> um...
[16:50] <jrwren> GPL specifically covers binary distro.
[16:51] <jrwren> its not a GPL violation because its an installer which install 2 things. GPL software and malware.
[16:52] <cmaloney> Yep
[17:35] <jrwren> if anyone wants to trade their email to enter a free chair contest: http://virl.io/FUGoMtmk
[17:38] <phwelo> that is one fugly chair, but sure why not
[17:38] <phwelo> wth is twitch?
[17:46] <wolfger> video streaming. Typically video games
[17:48] <phwelo> ah a coworker was telling me about this, how his kid will just sit and watch other people watch videogames for hours
[17:48] <phwelo> s/watch/play
[18:04] <ColonelPanic001> god, that stuff
[18:04] <ColonelPanic001> that sounds terribly boring
[18:04] <greg-g> I uh... did that once, but I was sitting in a dorm room watching my friend play the game in person, and only for like 30 minutes
[18:05] <ColonelPanic001> it was college. he was experimenting.
[18:05] <greg-g> exactly
[18:14] <phwelo> is anyone in southfield?  is it raining over there?
[18:18] <brousch> my son does it on youtube sometimes
[18:18] <brousch> mostly for the crazy comments from whoever is playing
[18:19] <cmaloney> phwelo: I'm around Royal Oak. It was raining hard for a bit
[18:20] <cmaloney> Seems to have let up
[18:20] <phwelo> hopefully it's not travelling my way.  people drive poorly in the rain
[18:21] <brousch> off and on since lunch for me
[18:42] <wolfger> watching other people play video games is a thing now, I guess. "E-sports". I don't get it.
[18:42] <wolfger> but it's a real thing, with money and everything for the best players
[18:42] <greg-g> money doesn't make things real
[18:42] <greg-g> because money isn't real
[18:42] <greg-g> come on man
[18:42] <greg-g> :P
[18:43] <wolfger> friggin' hippie. You can't buy food with hugs.
[18:43] <wolfger> ...or I'd be fatter than I am.
[18:48] <jrwren> i watch people play video games for hours. I'm nuts about starcraft2
[18:48] <jrwren> it has a larger economy than the NHL
[18:48] <phwelo> oh yeah, i saw something about an "e-games" player retiring at the ripe age of like 20 from repetitive something injury in his hands
[20:26] <jcastro> I watched the International on ESPN
[20:26] <jcastro> thinking it would be stupid
[20:26] <jcastro> but it was awesome
[20:26] <jrwren> i'm watching WCS right now.
[20:26] <jcastro> which one is that?
[20:27] <jcastro> DOTA isn't as fun to watch as counterstrike to me
[20:28] <jrwren> starcraft2