[01:00] <derekv> I'm really not falling in love with ansible
[01:00] <derekv> it's been very frustrating to work with
[01:07] <cmaloney> Its pretty particular on how you organize things.
[01:10] <derekv> it feels like i'm trying to deploy a cluster by holding my hands over my eyes, and copy-pasting shell scripts I randomly find on the internet together and hoping it runs
[01:10] <derekv> which I think is pretty close to how this works
[01:11] <derekv> I have yet to have a singe thing just work without a fight after the first "ping" command
[01:12] <derekv> my favorite feature right now is how if a command never exits, you also never get to see it's output
[01:20] <derekv> e.g. if a command unexpectedly asks for user input, you'll never know why.  it just hangs.
[01:21] <cmaloney> Yeah, that can be a pain in the ass
[01:21] <cmaloney> but it's not quite that bad.
[01:22] <cmaloney> I've been able to deploy things wouthout out too much difficulty.
[01:22] <cmaloney> There's definitely a learning curve though
[01:22] <derekv> i'm going to try chef next as a point of comparison
[01:23] <cmaloney> Ther'es dome good books on Ansible as well
[01:24] <derekv> but this blows dude.  i lost count of how many infuriating things i've had to figure out.
[01:48] <jrwren> derekv: ^5, we can start an ansible apathy club.
[01:49] <jrwren> tagline: ansible: I don't see what the fuss is about.
[01:50] <cscheib> derekv: feel free to drop into the Puppet user group I run some time if you wanna learn about Puppet... search Detroit Puppet User Group on meetup.com for our meeting announcements and such
[01:51] <derekv> i'm about to start a "big shell script" user group
[01:51] <derekv> =P
[01:51] <derekv> i'm sour right now.
[01:55] <jrwren> big shell scripts are the best.
[01:55] <jrwren> its really sad what hoops people will jump through to avoid big bash.
[01:59] <cscheib> eh, shell scripts are ok for smaller tasks
[01:59] <jrwren> I'll write everything in shell
[01:59] <jrwren> fork multiple ones, have the talking ot each other.
[01:59] <jrwren> bash4 has a hash type.
[02:00] <cscheib> derekv: https://github.com/brandonhilkert/fucking_shell_scripts
[02:00] <jrwren> that said, I did find fabric rather useful
[02:00] <jrwren> hahaha, nice.
[02:01] <jrwren> the best config management tool is not using a config mgmt tool.
[02:01] <jrwren> manage system images like cattle, not pets.
[02:02] <cscheib> yes, most config management tools allow you to do just that, if you set things up properly
[02:02] <jrwren> ha!
[02:02] <jrwren> why set anyting up?
[02:02] <jrwren> just do it.
[02:02] <jrwren> don't need config
[02:02] <cscheib> cuz some people live in the real world
[02:02] <jrwren> right.
[02:03] <jrwren> the world changes.
[02:03] <cmaloney> Hey now,  Ansible is pretty cool
[02:03] <cmaloney> I'm really enjoying how it works.
[02:03] <cmaloney> I don't thnink you can appreciate how it works if you just try to copy / paste playbooks from the net.
[02:03] <cmaloney> THat's not going to get you anywhere.
[02:03] <cmaloney> You need to understand what it's trying to do and how it does that effectively.
[02:04] <cscheib> indeed
[02:04] <cmaloney> Otherwise no config management is going to work
[02:04] <cscheib> you definitely need to know your shit, it's not a shortcut to knowing a software stack
[02:05] <cmaloney> Nope
[02:05] <cmaloney> None of them are.
[02:05] <cmaloney> They'll just bury your non-knowledge into a shaky foundation
[02:05] <jrwren> nothing is
[03:27] <derekv> i feel like i get it
[03:27] <derekv> it's trying to do thing "idempotently".  however I see that as a pipe dream.
[03:28] <derekv> no way your going to manage machines with shell script in a way that is really idempotent
[03:29] <derekv> but what killed it for me was how difficult it was making it to debug what was happening
[03:30] <derekv> chef or puppet might be worse for all I know
[03:33] <derekv> I want to build system images in a deterministic way by running scripts on top of snapshots, and then deploy these with the a minimum configuration difference between instances (ports, hostnames, keys)
[03:33] <derekv> if I'm never going to modify a running instance, then it wouldn't matter how I ran those scripts
[03:34] <derekv> problem is, not really sure how to do that with data
[03:34] <derekv> stupid data, making everything complicated.
[12:44] <mrgoodcat> so apparently you can now get facebook to pgp encrypt emails they send you https://www.facebook.com/notes/protecting-the-graph/securing-email-communications-from-facebook/1611941762379302
[12:52] <cmaloney> Good morning
[13:07] <mrgoodcat> happy free speech day :)
[13:07] <mrgoodcat> for at least today the NSA is no longer allowed to collect your data en masse
[13:08] <cmaloney> For now
[13:09] <mrgoodcat> for now
[13:09] <mrgoodcat> and the cynic in me tells me there are probably workarounds they are trying to use
[13:10] <cmaloney> If those workarounds include getting an actual warrant from an actual judge then I'm OK with it.
[13:19] <wolfger> raise your hand if you think anything actually changed other than the legality of what they are doing.
[13:24] <_stink_> *crickets*
[13:26] <cmaloney> heh
[13:41] <phwelo> gm folks
[13:42] <cmaloney> Good morning
[15:59] <greg-g> "Tough anti-smoking measures have gone into effect in the Chinese capital, where smoking is now banned in restaurants, offices and on public transport." that's not what I would consider "tough"
[15:59] <greg-g> http://www.sky105.com/2015/06/beijing-bans-smoking-in-public-starting_1.html
[16:06] <cscheib> derekv: I dunno, that sounds exactly like the problem config mgmt is designed to solve.  Are you sure no one's going to modify a running instance once it's up?  Are your systems truly throwaway?  What happens if DNS changes, etc... Also, keep in mind there're things like rspec-puppet that make it fairly simple to unit test your script/code
[16:08] <cscheib> derekv: (I tend to mention puppet specific things, as that's what I'm familiar with in etail)
[16:08] <cscheib> *detail
[16:53] <derekv> cscheib: I have a lot to learn.  it's greenfield, so I can learn in stages
[16:57] <cmaloney> I'm playing with Ansible roles righ tnow
[16:57] <cmaloney> they're pretty interesting in how they work
[17:13] <phwelo> cmaloney: are you looking at Ansible for servers or networking equipment?  I thought the possibilities to automate networking tasks were pretty cool there
[17:13] <cmaloney> phwelo: Servers mostly.