| OvenWerks | zequence: Inlining menus does not seem to work on xfce | 00:18 |
|---|---|---|
| OvenWerks | zequence: I have also been unable to change a separator from ____ to some text. | 02:29 |
| zequence | OvenWerks: We might not be able to do all changes to the desktop files by the time for next release, so the menu may need to be as is until then. | 15:03 |
| zequence | We should aim at making the meny work with the future desktop files, not the ones we have now | 15:04 |
| zequence | I forgot about the custom freedesktop categories, that just begin with X-. Should not be too hard to get X-DAW accepted upstream | 15:05 |
| holstein | we should be able to get what we need up there | 15:05 |
| holstein | with the freedesktop folk | 15:05 |
| holstein | im sure others are having the same issue.. and then, the dev's can just put them where they want them, and we can respect that.. | 15:06 |
| holstein | rather than having all the audio folk deal with it on their own | 15:06 |
| holstein | not that there are that many.. or that many complaining about a menu.. | 15:06 |
| holstein | well, i joined the email list, and posted... i'll let you know if i hear anything | 15:14 |
| holstein | i just cant imagine this being exclusive to our community.. its gotta be a linux-wide issue that we may be able to address upstream | 15:15 |
| zequence | holstein: We're not really at the point where we are proposing any changes upstream yet, since we do not have a definitive list of stuff to recommend to be changed | 15:15 |
| zequence | But, of course, if you can get some answers on how we can do that, that would be great | 15:16 |
| holstein | i think *everyone*, including the creators of the applications can agree, there are no catagories for the applications | 15:17 |
| zequence | We should first finish the categorization of all packages that have desktop files in the Debian sections sound, graphics and video | 15:17 |
| holstein | sure.. but that would take care of that | 15:17 |
| zequence | There are some categories that are not being used | 15:17 |
| zequence | What would take care of that? | 15:17 |
| holstein | the creators can catagorize the packages, in compliance with freedesktop standards, that would just work for everyone | 15:18 |
| holstein | rather than, our "band-aid" for ubuntustudio | 15:18 |
| zequence | IT's not band-aid | 15:18 |
| holstein | its specific to just our repos | 15:18 |
| zequence | It's us doing what the upstream devs have not done properly first | 15:18 |
| holstein | yup | 15:18 |
| zequence | It's for all Debian, and then for all Linux | 15:18 |
| holstein | and, it may be a similar amount of effort to just do it up there | 15:18 |
| zequence | We don't do the changes in Ubuntu. We do them in Debian | 15:18 |
| zequence | Where? | 15:18 |
| holstein | upstream | 15:19 |
| zequence | Someone needs to change the desktop files | 15:19 |
| holstein | right | 15:19 |
| zequence | And, that's what we are doing | 15:19 |
| holstein | the creators of them can, if there are appropriate catagories | 15:19 |
| zequence | There are already a lot of them, that aren't being used | 15:19 |
| holstein | yup.. OvenWerks and i looked at them | 15:20 |
| zequence | Then, we need to figure out, while we do the categorization, what else we need to add | 15:20 |
| holstein | i dont think it would be much effort to clean them up | 15:20 |
| holstein | add/remove | 15:20 |
| zequence | You're welcome to participate in that | 15:20 |
| holstein | thanks | 15:21 |
| holstein | i am participating right now, by joining that mailing list, and asking about the categorization there | 15:22 |
| zequence | Yes, of course, but I meant to do the actual categorization work | 15:22 |
| zequence | There's one example for ardour3 on how it's done https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/AudioApplications | 15:23 |
| holstein | right.. but, i think we have been batting around categories for a while | 15:23 |
| zequence | Ross Gammon made some suggestions on the mail list on how to find which package has a desktop file | 15:23 |
| holstein | i think, we just need to nail something down, and then, someone/s can just implent the changes | 15:23 |
| zequence | That's exactly what that page is about | 15:23 |
| holstein | there are *many* suggestions | 15:23 |
| zequence | No, there aren't | 15:23 |
| holstein | zequence: cool | 15:23 |
| holstein | im going out now.. just let me know when its all settled, and i'll let you or OvenWerks know what i hear on that list | 15:24 |
| zequence | Sure | 15:24 |
| holstein | im sure theres a wiki page about it.. | 15:24 |
| zequence | About what? | 15:24 |
| holstein | the proposed menu structure.. | 15:25 |
| holstein | what goes where, and why | 15:25 |
| holstein | and, who decides.. and then, we just make the chagnes | 15:25 |
| zequence | Yes, and you can read all about it on the mail list. But, we are not there yet where we can start working on the menu properly | 15:25 |
| zequence | Since the categories haven't been dealt with in the actual desktop files | 15:25 |
| holstein | yes.. "properly" | 15:25 |
| holstein | so, outline that, and we'll have at it.. | 15:26 |
| holstein | or, OvenWerks can? | 15:26 |
| zequence | This is the order in which we need to do stuff, ok.. | 15:26 |
| zequence | 1. we do the categorization for all desktop files in the Debian/Ubuntu repos in these three pages: | 15:26 |
| zequence | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/AudioApplications | 15:26 |
| zequence | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/GraphicsApplications | 15:26 |
| zequence | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/VideoApplications | 15:27 |
| zequence | Once we are done, we make changes to desktop files upstream | 15:27 |
| zequence | Then, or at the same time, we recommend changes in freedesktop categories | 15:27 |
| holstein | sounds great | 15:27 |
| zequence | Finally, we are able to make the menu auto-populate from the existing desktop files | 15:27 |
| zequence | We can draft the menu now, but we can't make it work until the desktop files have been changed | 15:28 |
| holstein | having the sections, and knowing what goes where.. | 15:29 |
| zequence | Yeah | 15:29 |
| holstein | seems as simple as "ardour - audio - DAW" or whatever.. and someone just has to be in charge of that categorization.. and i dont have any preference, personally | 15:30 |
| holstein | i dont use a menu, so, it doesnt bother me.. but, at some point, someone just has to make the call.. and i was just saying *if* the categories were decided, then, that categorization could be done, in many cases, by the creators of the applications | 15:31 |
| holstein | i have run into the issue with trying to burn a data iso with brasero, and having to find it in an audio menu.. but, its got to go somewhere | 15:31 |
| zequence | Well, if that were true, they would make use of the ones that already exist | 15:31 |
| holstein | zequence: i dont think anyone has offered to address it up there | 15:32 |
| zequence | Freedesktop is not the main problem. The actual desktop files are | 15:32 |
| holstein | zequence: the ones that already exisit actually look like maybe someone from myth, etc, has been there | 15:32 |
| holstein | well, i think we could get into a chicken or egg things, here. but, im not suggesting no one edit a desktop file | 15:33 |
| zequence | It's not like that, once you realize which is the front and back of the horse | 15:33 |
| zequence | WHich, I'm not sure you are doing yet | 15:33 |
| holstein | all im saying is, the categories we, ubuntustudio, and the actual creators of many of these applications, dont have a suitable menu item in freedesktop | 15:33 |
| holstein | so, they dont catagorize them, as such | 15:33 |
| zequence | I have already stated many times, that there are suitable freedesktop categories that aren't being used | 15:34 |
| zequence | Also, devs upstream are probably not putting a lot of focus on this | 15:34 |
| zequence | This is why we have to do the work, since no one else will | 15:34 |
| holstein | if there are suitable ones, then, there shouldnt be any problem.. | 15:34 |
| zequence | The problem is in that they aren't being used properly in the desktop files | 15:35 |
| zequence | Also, we may need a few additional ones | 15:35 |
| holstein | additional what? | 15:35 |
| zequence | Freedesktop categories | 15:35 |
| holstein | you mean, additional ones that are *not* in the suitable set you mention? | 15:35 |
| zequence | ones that don't exist yet | 15:35 |
| holstein | becuase *thats* what im talking about | 15:35 |
| zequence | But, only a very few | 15:35 |
| zequence | And, those aren't the main problem, as I've been trying to convey here | 15:36 |
| zequence | The main problem is that the ones that exist aren't being used | 15:36 |
| zequence | Get it? | 15:36 |
| holstein | who's not using them? | 15:36 |
| holstein | debian? ubuntu? | 15:36 |
| zequence | The original devs for each piece of software that has a desktop files | 15:37 |
| zequence | file* | 15:37 |
| holstein | i think the entire issue is going to be more and more challenging as things just move away from a menu.. a traditional menu | 15:37 |
| holstein | anyways, im sure its more challenging than i understand | 15:38 |
| zequence | At first glance putting a category on something may seem trivial, but the more you categorize, the trickier it gets | 15:39 |
| holstein | i mean, if we are talking about just you and OvenWerks editing a couple thousand desktop files in the debian repos. thats not cool | 15:39 |
| holstein | i dont edit those.. i dont know that i can, or should | 15:39 |
| zequence | I'm not sure OvenWerks is about to change any desktop files- | 15:39 |
| holstein | if its something we can file bugs about, and get someone else to address, easily, maybe thats the way | 15:39 |
| zequence | But, I can do that in Debian | 15:40 |
| zequence | The big work is in drafting the suggested changes, which is what the wiki pages are about | 15:40 |
| holstein | im not following | 15:40 |
| zequence | I have access to the Debian multimedia sources | 15:40 |
| holstein | as i read above, the suggested change is "fix what isnt implemented" | 15:40 |
| zequence | So, I can make changes there in desktop files | 15:41 |
| holstein | the broken-ness.. | 15:41 |
| holstein | if they are already categorized.. and those desktop files are just "bad".. | 15:41 |
| zequence | holstein: Take a look at this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/AudioApplications | 15:41 |
| zequence | There are two columns of real importance | 15:41 |
| zequence | FDC (Freedekstop categories) | 15:41 |
| zequence | and "Suggested FDC" | 15:42 |
| zequence | We first need to check which freedesktop categories are being used for each package | 15:42 |
| zequence | Then, we suggest additions/changes for each of those | 15:42 |
| zequence | Once we have made suggestions for each, and feel ok with them, we do the changes upstream in Debian | 15:43 |
| zequence | I will need to talk with them about it, and as long as no one there disagrees.. | 15:43 |
| holstein | sure. i'll add a "leave it as-is, only working" column | 15:43 |
| zequence | That will make our menu work | 15:43 |
| zequence | Right, they were "Current FCD", and "Suggested FDC". Anyway | 15:44 |
| zequence | holstein: Don't add columns to the wiki | 15:45 |
| zequence | I've made that list with a script | 15:45 |
| zequence | "leave as is" can be written under "Suggested FDC" | 15:45 |
| zequence | holstein: If you want to help, you can help by researching which categories are used in the existing desktop files | 15:46 |
| zequence | That's where we need to start | 15:46 |
| holstein | zequence: well, i was joking | 15:47 |
| holstein | zequence: they are publically editable | 15:47 |
| holstein | what i have time for, right now, is to see where that email goes.. and, i'll check back in | 15:49 |
| zequence | I'm going to script the process of listing existing freedesktop categories | 15:58 |
| zequence | Would reduce the work load a lot | 15:59 |
| elfy | zequence: I see that I'm still listed on release team - going to remove myself from that now, was only needed for the tracker. If in future you want any help with that just shout. | 18:33 |
| zequence | Ok, elfy. Thanks a lot for all the help. | 20:23 |
| OvenWerks | zequence: our graphics/publishing/photographics menus already use categories quite heavily. I am not so sure about the 2d/3d categories though. I will try adding them on my own machine to see where things go. It seems that the audio area is the worst one. | 20:58 |
| OvenWerks | zequence: I think we have time to renew the menu. I can at least put all the existing categories in there and whatever apps we have to place by hand is ok. Then we have a list of apps that need work. | 23:07 |
| OvenWerks | zequence: debian changes the catagories when they package anyway. Perhaps we can get them to correct categories rather than deleting wrong ones. | 23:08 |
| OvenWerks | zequence: I think we should remove all the extra software desktop files. We will no longer really have room for them | 23:11 |
| OvenWerks | zequence: also in menuless systems they all show up in a clump which is confusing. One installer is all we need. | 23:12 |
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