[00:18] <OvenWerks> zequence: Inlining menus does not seem to work on xfce
[02:29] <OvenWerks> zequence: I have also been unable to change a separator from ____ to some text.
[15:03] <zequence> OvenWerks: We might not be able to do all changes to the desktop files by the time for next release, so the menu may need to be as is until then.
[15:04] <zequence> We should aim at making the meny work with the future desktop files, not the ones we have now
[15:05] <zequence> I forgot about the custom freedesktop categories, that just begin with X-. Should not be too hard to get X-DAW accepted upstream
[15:05] <holstein> we should be able to get what we need up there
[15:05] <holstein> with the freedesktop folk
[15:06] <holstein> im sure others are having the same issue.. and then, the dev's can just put them where they want them, and we can respect that..
[15:06] <holstein> rather than having all the audio folk deal with it on their own
[15:06] <holstein> not that there are that many.. or that many complaining about a menu..
[15:14] <holstein> well, i joined the email list, and posted... i'll let you know if i hear anything
[15:15] <holstein> i just cant imagine this being exclusive to our community.. its gotta be a linux-wide issue that we may be able to address upstream
[15:15] <zequence> holstein: We're not really at the point where we are proposing any changes upstream yet, since we do not have a definitive list of stuff to recommend to be changed
[15:16] <zequence> But, of course, if you can get some answers on how we can do that, that would be great
[15:17] <holstein> i think *everyone*, including the creators of the  applications can agree, there are no catagories for the applications
[15:17] <zequence> We should first finish the categorization of all packages that have desktop files in the Debian sections sound, graphics and video
[15:17] <holstein> sure.. but that would take care of that
[15:17] <zequence> There are some categories that are not being used
[15:17] <zequence> What would take care of that?
[15:18] <holstein> the creators can catagorize the packages, in compliance with freedesktop standards, that would just work for everyone
[15:18] <holstein> rather than, our "band-aid" for ubuntustudio
[15:18] <zequence> IT's not band-aid
[15:18] <holstein> its specific to just our repos
[15:18] <zequence> It's us doing what the upstream devs have not done properly first
[15:18] <holstein> yup
[15:18] <zequence> It's for all Debian, and then for all Linux
[15:18] <holstein> and, it may be a similar amount of effort to just do it up there
[15:18] <zequence> We don't do the changes in Ubuntu. We do them in Debian
[15:18] <zequence> Where?
[15:19] <holstein> upstream
[15:19] <zequence> Someone needs to change the desktop files
[15:19] <holstein> right
[15:19] <zequence> And, that's what we are doing
[15:19] <holstein> the creators of them can, if there are appropriate catagories
[15:19] <zequence> There are already a lot of them, that aren't being used
[15:20] <holstein> yup.. OvenWerks and i looked at them
[15:20] <zequence> Then, we need to figure out, while we do the categorization, what else we need to add
[15:20] <holstein> i dont think it would be much effort to clean them up
[15:20] <holstein> add/remove
[15:20] <zequence> You're welcome to participate in that
[15:21] <holstein> thanks
[15:22] <holstein> i am participating right now, by joining that mailing list, and asking about the categorization there
[15:22] <zequence> Yes, of course, but I meant to do the actual categorization work
[15:23] <zequence> There's one example for ardour3 on how it's done https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/AudioApplications
[15:23] <holstein> right.. but, i think we have been batting around categories for a while
[15:23] <zequence> Ross Gammon made some suggestions on the mail list on how to find which package has a desktop file
[15:23] <holstein> i think, we just need to nail something down, and then, someone/s can just implent the changes
[15:23] <zequence> That's exactly what that page is about
[15:23] <holstein> there are *many* suggestions
[15:23] <zequence> No, there aren't
[15:23] <holstein> zequence: cool
[15:24] <holstein> im going out now.. just let me know when its all settled, and i'll let you or OvenWerks know what i hear on that list
[15:24] <zequence> Sure
[15:24] <holstein> im sure theres a wiki page about it..
[15:24] <zequence> About what?
[15:25] <holstein> the proposed menu structure..
[15:25] <holstein> what goes where, and why
[15:25] <holstein> and, who decides.. and then, we just make the chagnes
[15:25] <zequence> Yes, and you can read all about it on the mail list. But, we are not there yet where we can start working on the menu properly
[15:25] <zequence> Since the categories haven't been dealt with in the actual desktop files
[15:25] <holstein> yes.. "properly"
[15:26] <holstein> so, outline that, and we'll have at it..
[15:26] <holstein> or, OvenWerks can?
[15:26] <zequence> This is the order in which we need to do stuff, ok..
[15:26] <zequence> 1. we do the categorization for all desktop files in the Debian/Ubuntu repos in these three pages:
[15:26] <zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/AudioApplications
[15:26] <zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/GraphicsApplications
[15:27] <zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/VideoApplications
[15:27] <zequence> Once we are done, we make changes to desktop files upstream
[15:27] <zequence> Then, or at the same time, we recommend changes in freedesktop categories
[15:27] <holstein> sounds great
[15:27] <zequence> Finally, we are able to make the menu auto-populate from the existing desktop files
[15:28] <zequence> We can draft the menu now, but we can't make it work until the desktop files have been changed
[15:29] <holstein> having the sections, and knowing what goes where..
[15:29] <zequence> Yeah
[15:30] <holstein> seems as simple as "ardour - audio - DAW" or whatever.. and someone just has to be in charge of that categorization.. and i dont have any preference, personally
[15:31] <holstein> i dont use a menu, so, it doesnt bother me.. but, at some point, someone just has to make the call.. and i was just saying *if* the categories were decided, then, that categorization could be done, in many cases, by the creators of the applications
[15:31] <holstein> i have run into the issue with trying to burn a data iso with brasero, and having to find it in an audio menu.. but, its got to go somewhere
[15:31] <zequence> Well, if that were true, they would make use of the ones that already exist
[15:32] <holstein> zequence: i dont think anyone has offered to address it up there
[15:32] <zequence> Freedesktop is not the main problem. The actual desktop files are
[15:32] <holstein> zequence: the ones that already exisit actually look like maybe someone from myth, etc, has been there
[15:33] <holstein> well, i think we could get into a chicken or egg things, here. but, im not suggesting no one edit a desktop file
[15:33] <zequence> It's not like that, once you realize which is the front and back of the horse
[15:33] <zequence> WHich, I'm not sure you are doing yet
[15:33] <holstein> all im saying is, the categories we, ubuntustudio, and the actual creators of many of these applications, dont have a suitable menu item in freedesktop
[15:33] <holstein> so, they dont catagorize them, as such
[15:34] <zequence> I have already stated many times, that there are suitable freedesktop categories that aren't being used
[15:34] <zequence> Also, devs upstream are probably not putting a lot of focus on this
[15:34] <zequence> This is why we have to do the work, since no one else will
[15:34] <holstein> if there are suitable ones, then, there shouldnt be any problem..
[15:35] <zequence> The problem is in that they aren't being used properly in the desktop files
[15:35] <zequence> Also, we may need a few additional ones
[15:35] <holstein> additional what?
[15:35] <zequence> Freedesktop categories
[15:35] <holstein> you mean, additional ones that are *not* in the suitable set you mention?
[15:35] <zequence> ones that don't exist yet
[15:35] <holstein> becuase *thats* what im talking about
[15:35] <zequence> But, only a very few
[15:36] <zequence> And, those aren't the main problem, as I've been trying to convey here
[15:36] <zequence> The main problem is that the ones that exist aren't being used
[15:36] <zequence> Get it?
[15:36] <holstein> who's not using them?
[15:36] <holstein> debian? ubuntu?
[15:37] <zequence> The original devs for each piece of software that has a desktop files
[15:37] <zequence> file*
[15:37] <holstein> i think the entire issue is going to be more and more challenging as things just move away from a menu.. a traditional menu
[15:38] <holstein> anyways, im sure its more challenging than i understand
[15:39] <zequence> At first glance putting a category on something may seem trivial, but the more you categorize, the trickier it gets
[15:39] <holstein> i mean, if we are talking about just you and OvenWerks editing a couple thousand desktop files in the debian repos. thats not cool
[15:39] <holstein> i dont edit those.. i dont know that i can, or should
[15:39] <zequence> I'm not sure OvenWerks is about to change any desktop files-
[15:39] <holstein> if its something we can file bugs about, and get someone else to address, easily, maybe thats the way
[15:40] <zequence> But, I can do that in Debian
[15:40] <zequence> The big work is in drafting the suggested changes, which is what the wiki pages are about
[15:40] <holstein> im not following
[15:40] <zequence> I have access to the Debian multimedia sources
[15:40] <holstein> as i read above, the suggested change is "fix what isnt implemented"
[15:41] <zequence> So, I can make changes there in desktop files
[15:41] <holstein> the broken-ness..
[15:41] <holstein> if they are already categorized.. and those desktop files are just "bad".. 
[15:41] <zequence> holstein: Take a look at this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/AudioApplications
[15:41] <zequence> There are two columns of real importance
[15:41] <zequence> FDC (Freedekstop categories)
[15:42] <zequence> and "Suggested FDC"
[15:42] <zequence> We first need to check which freedesktop categories are being used for each package
[15:42] <zequence> Then, we suggest additions/changes for each of those
[15:43] <zequence> Once we have made suggestions for each, and feel ok with them, we do the changes upstream in Debian
[15:43] <zequence> I will need to talk with them about it, and as long as no one there disagrees..
[15:43] <holstein> sure. i'll add a "leave it as-is, only working" column
[15:43] <zequence> That will make our menu work
[15:44] <zequence> Right, they were "Current FCD", and "Suggested FDC". Anyway
[15:45] <zequence> holstein: Don't add columns to the wiki
[15:45] <zequence> I've made that list with a script
[15:45] <zequence> "leave as is" can be written under "Suggested FDC"
[15:46] <zequence> holstein: If you want to help, you can help by researching which categories are used in the existing desktop files
[15:46] <zequence> That's where we need to start
[15:47] <holstein> zequence: well, i was joking
[15:47] <holstein> zequence: they are publically editable
[15:49] <holstein> what i have time for, right now, is to see where that email goes.. and, i'll check back in
[15:58] <zequence> I'm going to script the process of listing existing freedesktop categories
[15:59] <zequence> Would reduce the work load a lot
[18:33] <elfy> zequence: I see that I'm still listed on release team - going to remove myself from that now, was only needed for the tracker. If in future you want any help with that just shout. 
[20:23] <zequence> Ok, elfy. Thanks a lot for all the help.
[20:58] <OvenWerks> zequence: our graphics/publishing/photographics menus already use categories quite heavily. I am not so sure about the 2d/3d categories though. I will try adding them on my own machine to see where things go. It seems that the audio area is the worst one.
[23:07] <OvenWerks> zequence: I think we have time to renew the menu. I can at least put all the existing categories in there and whatever apps we have to place by hand is ok. Then we have a list of apps that need work.
[23:08] <OvenWerks> zequence: debian changes the catagories when they package anyway. Perhaps we can get them to correct categories rather than deleting wrong ones.
[23:11] <OvenWerks> zequence: I think we should remove all the extra software desktop files. We will no longer really have room for them
[23:12] <OvenWerks> zequence: also in menuless systems they all show up in a clump which is confusing. One installer is all we need.