[00:18] zequence: Inlining menus does not seem to work on xfce [02:29] zequence: I have also been unable to change a separator from ____ to some text. [15:03] OvenWerks: We might not be able to do all changes to the desktop files by the time for next release, so the menu may need to be as is until then. [15:04] We should aim at making the meny work with the future desktop files, not the ones we have now [15:05] I forgot about the custom freedesktop categories, that just begin with X-. Should not be too hard to get X-DAW accepted upstream [15:05] we should be able to get what we need up there [15:05] with the freedesktop folk [15:06] im sure others are having the same issue.. and then, the dev's can just put them where they want them, and we can respect that.. [15:06] rather than having all the audio folk deal with it on their own [15:06] not that there are that many.. or that many complaining about a menu.. [15:14] well, i joined the email list, and posted... i'll let you know if i hear anything [15:15] i just cant imagine this being exclusive to our community.. its gotta be a linux-wide issue that we may be able to address upstream [15:15] holstein: We're not really at the point where we are proposing any changes upstream yet, since we do not have a definitive list of stuff to recommend to be changed [15:16] But, of course, if you can get some answers on how we can do that, that would be great [15:17] i think *everyone*, including the creators of the applications can agree, there are no catagories for the applications [15:17] We should first finish the categorization of all packages that have desktop files in the Debian sections sound, graphics and video [15:17] sure.. but that would take care of that [15:17] There are some categories that are not being used [15:17] What would take care of that? [15:18] the creators can catagorize the packages, in compliance with freedesktop standards, that would just work for everyone [15:18] rather than, our "band-aid" for ubuntustudio [15:18] IT's not band-aid [15:18] its specific to just our repos [15:18] It's us doing what the upstream devs have not done properly first [15:18] yup [15:18] It's for all Debian, and then for all Linux [15:18] and, it may be a similar amount of effort to just do it up there [15:18] We don't do the changes in Ubuntu. We do them in Debian [15:18] Where? [15:19] upstream [15:19] Someone needs to change the desktop files [15:19] right [15:19] And, that's what we are doing [15:19] the creators of them can, if there are appropriate catagories [15:19] There are already a lot of them, that aren't being used [15:20] yup.. OvenWerks and i looked at them [15:20] Then, we need to figure out, while we do the categorization, what else we need to add [15:20] i dont think it would be much effort to clean them up [15:20] add/remove [15:20] You're welcome to participate in that [15:21] thanks [15:22] i am participating right now, by joining that mailing list, and asking about the categorization there [15:22] Yes, of course, but I meant to do the actual categorization work [15:23] There's one example for ardour3 on how it's done https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/AudioApplications [15:23] right.. but, i think we have been batting around categories for a while [15:23] Ross Gammon made some suggestions on the mail list on how to find which package has a desktop file [15:23] i think, we just need to nail something down, and then, someone/s can just implent the changes [15:23] That's exactly what that page is about [15:23] there are *many* suggestions [15:23] No, there aren't [15:23] zequence: cool [15:24] im going out now.. just let me know when its all settled, and i'll let you or OvenWerks know what i hear on that list [15:24] Sure [15:24] im sure theres a wiki page about it.. [15:24] About what? [15:25] the proposed menu structure.. [15:25] what goes where, and why [15:25] and, who decides.. and then, we just make the chagnes [15:25] Yes, and you can read all about it on the mail list. But, we are not there yet where we can start working on the menu properly [15:25] Since the categories haven't been dealt with in the actual desktop files [15:25] yes.. "properly" [15:26] so, outline that, and we'll have at it.. [15:26] or, OvenWerks can? [15:26] This is the order in which we need to do stuff, ok.. [15:26] 1. we do the categorization for all desktop files in the Debian/Ubuntu repos in these three pages: [15:26] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/AudioApplications [15:26] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/GraphicsApplications [15:27] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/VideoApplications [15:27] Once we are done, we make changes to desktop files upstream [15:27] Then, or at the same time, we recommend changes in freedesktop categories [15:27] sounds great [15:27] Finally, we are able to make the menu auto-populate from the existing desktop files [15:28] We can draft the menu now, but we can't make it work until the desktop files have been changed [15:29] having the sections, and knowing what goes where.. [15:29] Yeah [15:30] seems as simple as "ardour - audio - DAW" or whatever.. and someone just has to be in charge of that categorization.. and i dont have any preference, personally [15:31] i dont use a menu, so, it doesnt bother me.. but, at some point, someone just has to make the call.. and i was just saying *if* the categories were decided, then, that categorization could be done, in many cases, by the creators of the applications [15:31] i have run into the issue with trying to burn a data iso with brasero, and having to find it in an audio menu.. but, its got to go somewhere [15:31] Well, if that were true, they would make use of the ones that already exist [15:32] zequence: i dont think anyone has offered to address it up there [15:32] Freedesktop is not the main problem. The actual desktop files are [15:32] zequence: the ones that already exisit actually look like maybe someone from myth, etc, has been there [15:33] well, i think we could get into a chicken or egg things, here. but, im not suggesting no one edit a desktop file [15:33] It's not like that, once you realize which is the front and back of the horse [15:33] WHich, I'm not sure you are doing yet [15:33] all im saying is, the categories we, ubuntustudio, and the actual creators of many of these applications, dont have a suitable menu item in freedesktop [15:33] so, they dont catagorize them, as such [15:34] I have already stated many times, that there are suitable freedesktop categories that aren't being used [15:34] Also, devs upstream are probably not putting a lot of focus on this [15:34] This is why we have to do the work, since no one else will [15:34] if there are suitable ones, then, there shouldnt be any problem.. [15:35] The problem is in that they aren't being used properly in the desktop files [15:35] Also, we may need a few additional ones [15:35] additional what? [15:35] Freedesktop categories [15:35] you mean, additional ones that are *not* in the suitable set you mention? [15:35] ones that don't exist yet [15:35] becuase *thats* what im talking about [15:35] But, only a very few [15:36] And, those aren't the main problem, as I've been trying to convey here [15:36] The main problem is that the ones that exist aren't being used [15:36] Get it? [15:36] who's not using them? [15:36] debian? ubuntu? [15:37] The original devs for each piece of software that has a desktop files [15:37] file* [15:37] i think the entire issue is going to be more and more challenging as things just move away from a menu.. a traditional menu [15:38] anyways, im sure its more challenging than i understand [15:39] At first glance putting a category on something may seem trivial, but the more you categorize, the trickier it gets [15:39] i mean, if we are talking about just you and OvenWerks editing a couple thousand desktop files in the debian repos. thats not cool [15:39] i dont edit those.. i dont know that i can, or should [15:39] I'm not sure OvenWerks is about to change any desktop files- [15:39] if its something we can file bugs about, and get someone else to address, easily, maybe thats the way [15:40] But, I can do that in Debian [15:40] The big work is in drafting the suggested changes, which is what the wiki pages are about [15:40] im not following [15:40] I have access to the Debian multimedia sources [15:40] as i read above, the suggested change is "fix what isnt implemented" [15:41] So, I can make changes there in desktop files [15:41] the broken-ness.. [15:41] if they are already categorized.. and those desktop files are just "bad".. [15:41] holstein: Take a look at this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/AudioApplications [15:41] There are two columns of real importance [15:41] FDC (Freedekstop categories) [15:42] and "Suggested FDC" [15:42] We first need to check which freedesktop categories are being used for each package [15:42] Then, we suggest additions/changes for each of those [15:43] Once we have made suggestions for each, and feel ok with them, we do the changes upstream in Debian [15:43] I will need to talk with them about it, and as long as no one there disagrees.. [15:43] sure. i'll add a "leave it as-is, only working" column [15:43] That will make our menu work [15:44] Right, they were "Current FCD", and "Suggested FDC". Anyway [15:45] holstein: Don't add columns to the wiki [15:45] I've made that list with a script [15:45] "leave as is" can be written under "Suggested FDC" [15:46] holstein: If you want to help, you can help by researching which categories are used in the existing desktop files [15:46] That's where we need to start [15:47] zequence: well, i was joking [15:47] zequence: they are publically editable [15:49] what i have time for, right now, is to see where that email goes.. and, i'll check back in [15:58] I'm going to script the process of listing existing freedesktop categories [15:59] Would reduce the work load a lot [18:33] zequence: I see that I'm still listed on release team - going to remove myself from that now, was only needed for the tracker. If in future you want any help with that just shout. [20:23] Ok, elfy. Thanks a lot for all the help. [20:58] zequence: our graphics/publishing/photographics menus already use categories quite heavily. I am not so sure about the 2d/3d categories though. I will try adding them on my own machine to see where things go. It seems that the audio area is the worst one. [23:07] zequence: I think we have time to renew the menu. I can at least put all the existing categories in there and whatever apps we have to place by hand is ok. Then we have a list of apps that need work. [23:08] zequence: debian changes the catagories when they package anyway. Perhaps we can get them to correct categories rather than deleting wrong ones. [23:11] zequence: I think we should remove all the extra software desktop files. We will no longer really have room for them [23:12] zequence: also in menuless systems they all show up in a clump which is confusing. One installer is all we need.