[07:11] <ochosi> elfy: good to know. i'll try to prep our themes when i get my new laptop (gah, still 20 days :( )
[07:12] <elfy> :(
[07:12] <ochosi> yeah, that's what you get when you order the ubuntu laptop from dell
[07:13] <elfy> ... 
[10:36] <bluesabre> trusty/utopic/vivid folks: Synced the latest packages to the xfce-4.12 ppa this morning.  Some are still building.
[10:42] <bluesabre> Unit193: if you get a chance, can you work with the greeter 2.0.1 packaging?
[10:43] <bluesabre> need to migrate the ubuntu conf to the new dirs
[10:49] <ochosi> hey bluesabre 
[10:50] <ochosi> great!
[10:50] <ochosi> btw, i pushed another commit and am about to release a new dev version of xfpm
[10:50] <ochosi> so you can soon test that hidden panel setting again ;)
[10:51] <bluesabre> ochosi: cool :)
[11:08] <ochosi> bluesabre: will you be here for the meeting today?
[11:08] <bluesabre> ochosi: can't make it, during travel/work hours
[11:09] <bluesabre> we can have a quick discussion now though, if you'd like
[11:30] <ochosi> bluesabre: sure, and sry, was away for lunch
[11:34] <ochosi> are you still around or already gone..?
[11:37] <ochosi> elfy: any specific icons in LO that "haven't been ochosi'd" - as you put it - that you would say are high priority for you?
[11:38] <bluesabre> ochosi: hey
[11:38] <ochosi> oh good :)
[11:39] <ochosi> so to pick up from before: i will try to release xfpm 1.5.1 this weekend, so maybe we can provide that in the PPA for wily and vivid
[11:40] <bluesabre> ochosi: sure thing
[11:40] <bluesabre> ochosi: got a few orange icons on the right... :) http://i.imgur.com/XWXSEgb.png
[11:40] <bluesabre> Version: 4.4.2.2
[11:40] <ochosi> and wrt LO icons, thanks for fixing the packaging!
[11:41] <bluesabre> np
[11:41] <ochosi> yeah, the insertpagebreak and the insertfield icons havent been fixed yet
[11:41] <ochosi> but: look at the beautiful shapes you can insert!
[11:41] <bluesabre> :D
[11:41] <ochosi> for "insert field" i'm still a bit unsure how to represent that
[11:42] <bluesabre> also the paint tub and brush on the right
[11:42] <ochosi> that icon there doesn't make much sense to me tbh
[11:42] <ochosi> yeah, although that's sorta okayish
[11:42] <ochosi> not going to eliminate all orange icons just for the sake of it ;)
[11:42] <ochosi> note: it's not the same orange like the other two icons, so not ubuntu-orange
[11:43] <bluesabre> "Show Draw Functions", indeed, thats kind of a dumb icon in general
[11:43] <ochosi> yeah
[11:43] <ochosi> in LO-calc there is a lot more to do
[11:44] <ochosi> but i focused on -writer for now
[11:44] <ochosi> and even there, i wanna fix the list and indent icons
[11:44] <bluesabre> yeah
[11:44] <bluesabre> I won't mention the other apps (non-writer/calc) for a little while
[11:45] <ochosi> yeah, they're not as important for now
[11:47] <ochosi> you sent me that screenshot of catfish, have you pushed that already?
[11:48] <bluesabre> ochosi: nope, not yet
[11:48] <bluesabre> :D
[11:48] <ochosi> also, maybe we should discuss our general stance wrt CSD
[11:48] <bluesabre> its not working atm
[11:48] <bluesabre> and yeah
[11:48] <ochosi> we have some apps already that have CSD (calculator)
[11:48] <ochosi> but with many others we pushed for patches that prevent CSD
[11:49] <ochosi> i'm wondering whether we should revert that
[11:49] <ochosi> e.g. simplescan
[11:49] <bluesabre> yeah.. in a lot of those cases its ubuntu pushing those patches
[11:49] <ochosi> yeah, but we argued that we want to be included :)
[11:49] <ochosi> it checks the running DE
[11:49] <bluesabre> true
[11:49] <ochosi> in ubuntu gnome those apps use CSD afaik
[11:49] <bluesabre> the way they are patched makes them look dump fairly frequently
[11:49] <bluesabre> *dumb
[11:49] <ochosi> dump?
[11:49] <ochosi> :)
[11:50] <ochosi> yeah, so maybe we should discuss that as a team or something
[11:50] <ochosi> not sure
[11:50] <bluesabre> but, I also know that several folks here don't like CSDs, so it should be a broader conversation in xubuntu (and probably xfce)
[11:50] <ochosi> with xfce there are no plans to go for going for csd
[11:51] <ochosi> although i could imagine we could implement a setting for xfce apps
[11:51] <ochosi> i mean a general one
[11:51] <ochosi> e.g. in xfce4-session
[11:51] <bluesabre> I don't think a setting is necessary there
[11:51] <ochosi> with "broader discussion in xubuntu" you mean broader than theme?
[11:52] <ochosi> well i could imagine that we implement optional CSD in xfce apps
[11:52] <bluesabre> xfwm4 supports it gracefully, gtk 3.16 handles without compositing
[11:52] <bluesabre> I don't think it should be an optional thing
[11:52] <ochosi> right, why?
[11:52] <ochosi> (apart from the obvious ones: code complexity, maintainability)
[11:52] <bluesabre> toolbar+menubar != headerbar... no need to completely change the interface for a different titlebar
[11:53] <ochosi> yeah but headerbar+menubar looks really silly
[11:53] <bluesabre> yeah, and in that case it should not use a headerbar
[11:54] <bluesabre> if an app is going to support it, then it should do it fully and not have a switch to toggle
[11:54] <bluesabre> imo
[11:54] <bluesabre> :)
[11:55] <ochosi> k :)
[11:55] <bluesabre> in the same line of thought, I don't think it should be patched away in ubuntu ;)
[11:55] <ochosi> yeah, many ubuntu devs see it that way
[11:55] <ochosi> they might revert those patches actually
[11:55] <ochosi> it could happen any release, just depends on compiz supporting CSD better
[11:56] <ochosi> which is why i'm thinking it might be a good idea to be proactive about that
[11:56] <ochosi> although i have no idea what to do with e.g. evince, i mean how that would look without ubuntu patching the gnome app-menus to be menus in a menubar
[11:57] <ochosi> we might have to come up with a solution for that problem
[11:57] <bluesabre> ochosi: gtk handles that, drops the app menus into a menubutton on the headerbar
[11:57] <ochosi> oh ok
[11:57] <ochosi> i thought there was more to it than that
[11:57] <bluesabre> I think thats part of GtkApplication
[11:58] <ochosi> still, i wonder how all the menuitems in evince fit into a single menubutton..
[11:59] <bluesabre> er, GtkApplicationWindow
[11:59] <bluesabre> https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkApplicationWindow.html#GtkApplicationWindow--show-menubar
[11:59] <bluesabre> yeah
[11:59] <bluesabre> anyway, gotta run for now
[11:59] <bluesabre> maybe you have something to talk about in the meeting now ;)
[12:01] <ochosi> hah
[12:01] <ochosi> alright
[12:01] <ochosi> ttyl and hf!
[12:02] <elfy> ochosi: I tend not to look tbh (sorry) but mostly I calc than writer - and there appears to be a *lot*
[12:02] <elfy> and then I see the mention of calc in backlog ... 
[12:13] <ochosi> elfy: yeah, i'll work on calc at some point
[12:13] <ochosi> thing is, i won't just replace icons for the sake of it, if they're okay then i'll leave them
[12:14] <ochosi> (also because of limited time/motivation)
[12:14] <knome> elfy, can you use ubuntu-bug if you use a PPA?
[12:15] <knome> oh yeah...
[12:15]  * knome facepalms
[12:17] <knome> "It also helps if bugs you find with xfce packages can be reported on ..."
[12:17] <knome> not english :D
[12:21] <elfy> it *is* English 
[12:21] <knome> well...
[12:21] <elfy> just not grammatically correct :)
[12:22] <knome> engrish
[12:22] <elfy> lol 
[12:29] <elfy> !team | meeting
[12:30] <elfy> #startmeeting
[12:30] <meetingology> Meeting started Fri Jun  5 12:30:11 2015 UTC.  The chair is elfy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[12:30] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[12:30] <elfy> I'll hang about for a minute or two to see if anyone turns up ... 
[12:30] <knome> well i'm here..
[12:31] <dkessel> o/
[12:32] <elfy> so am I knome :)
[12:32] <knome> hei dkessel 
[12:32] <dkessel> hej knome
[12:32] <elfy> hi dkessel 
[12:32] <dkessel> hey elfy
[12:32] <elfy> #topic Open action items
[12:33] <knome> none i guess
[12:33] <elfy> this is easy as pie - only one to look at and that's -dev and -qa and I've got to assume that bluesabre and ochosi will ask 
[12:33] <knome> oh there is one..
[12:33] <knome> yep
[12:34] <elfy> and Unit193 and Noskcaj and micahg 
[12:34] <elfy> #done xubuntu-dev to liase with -qa when specific package testing required 
[12:34] <elfy> meh 
[12:34] <knome> heh
[12:34] <elfy> #topic Team Updates
[12:35] <elfy> anything from you knome ? 
[12:35] <knome> #info knome has been working on website content
[12:35] <knome> that's all
[12:35] <elfy> #info milestone image testing dealt with
[12:36] <elfy> that's all 
[12:36] <elfy> move along I guess
[12:36] <elfy> #topic Announcements
[12:37] <elfy> nothing that I'm aware of 
[12:38] <elfy> #topic Discussion
[12:38] <elfy> #subtopic Rebooting the FAQ articles
[12:38] <elfy> knome: that's your item 
[12:38] <elfy> anything happened with that recently? 
[12:40] <elfy> guessing not then ... 
[12:40] <knome> nope, but the work continues
[12:40] <elfy> :)
[12:40] <knome> sorry, i'm in a flu and have my other nostril dripping blood more or less consistently...
[12:40] <elfy> so people are doing that? 
[12:40] <elfy> :|
[12:40] <knome> we'll do at least something
[12:41] <knome> at least bluesabre said he could write something
[12:41] <knome> if not else, i guess i'll push the "back to the basics" series forward
[12:41] <elfy> ok - so any need for us to revisit this each meeting still ?
[12:41] <knome> likely not
[12:41] <elfy> or take it to mailing lists when needed or something 
[12:41] <knome> i'll just send a follow-up to the ML at some point
[12:41] <knome> yep
[12:41] <elfy> ack
[12:42] <knome> #action knome to follow-up on the FAQ reboot on ML
[12:42] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to follow-up on the FAQ reboot on ML
[12:42] <elfy> #subtopic Discuss blueprints and plans for 15.10 
[12:42] <knome> heh
[12:43] <elfy> which is ochosi's bag afaik - pretty sure the blueprints are being/been sorted
[12:43] <knome> looks like it
[12:43] <elfy> yep 
[12:44] <dkessel> definately
[12:44] <elfy> #action ochosi to follow up with team leads re blueprints as needed
[12:44] <meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to follow up with team leads re blueprints as needed
[12:44] <elfy> #subtopic Core as image
[12:44] <elfy> I put this on here expecting to set a time that bluesabre was here -which was fail :) 
[12:45] <elfy> personally my view is that it'd be nice to do that - maybe aim for the next cycle proper - which would be even nicer 
[12:46] <elfy> as far as QA goes - if we do that, then QA would do what is necessary for that
[12:46] <elfy> not got anything else to say on that though 
[12:47] <elfy> anyone else got anything to say on that? 
[12:48] <knome> yep
[12:48] <knome> what you say sounds good
[12:50] <elfy> anymore - if not I'll move along 
[12:51] <ochosi> o/
[12:51] <ochosi> sorry for being late
[12:51] <elfy> hi ochosi 
[12:52] <elfy> ochosi: anything you want to bring up? 
[12:52] <ochosi> had an important call
[12:52] <ochosi> i'll quickly catch up backlog wise, 1min
[12:53] <elfy> okey doke
[12:53] <ochosi> i'm surprised there were no team updates so far
[12:54] <elfy> not much to be said QA wise atm
[12:54] <ochosi> knome: what about the website content restructuring? (i mean sure, it's on the ML, but still)
[12:54] <ochosi> elfy: what about not using the tracker this cycle?
[12:54] <ochosi> or has that previously been discussed/announced in a meeting?
[12:55] <elfy> yea - that came up previously 
[12:55] <elfy> the draft mail is following up 
[12:55] <ochosi> mkay
[12:55] <knome> ochosi, what about that?
[12:56] <ochosi> knome: well i dunno, what are team updates about if not e.g. that?
[12:56] <elfy> ochosi: on the 12th May 
[12:56] <knome> ochosi, i did the update
[12:56] <knome> "working with website content"
[12:56]  * ochosi facepalms
[12:56] <ochosi> sorry, overread that
[12:56] <knome> np
[12:56] <elfy> :)
[12:56] <ochosi> guess i should've taken 1min30sec to read the backlog instead of just 1min
[12:57] <knome> lol
[12:57] <elfy> ha ha ha 
[12:57] <ochosi> anyhoo, there is a discussion item i wanted to bring up quickly
[12:57] <elfy> #chair ochosi 
[12:57] <meetingology> Current chairs: elfy ochosi
[12:57] <ochosi> we won't finish today, but i would like to hear both your opinions (at least)
[12:57] <elfy> then you can topic it 
[12:57] <elfy> (unless you can without chair ... )
[12:58] <ochosi> #subtopic Discuss Xubuntu's position on CSD (client side decorations)
[12:58] <knome> can't
[12:58] <elfy> knome: ty
[12:58] <ochosi> sooo
[12:58] <ochosi> so far, we've tried to get ubuntu's patches to work for xubuntu as well, which means our apps look like before
[12:58] <ochosi> btw, are we all clear on what CSD is?
[12:58] <elfy> not completely ... 
[12:59] <ochosi> ok, in vivid/wily, open the calculator
[12:59] <knome> maybe you should post reference for reference
[12:59] <ochosi> that's CSD
[12:59] <ochosi> so not using a traditional window decoration
[12:59] <ochosi> but one that looks like a toolbar with window controls
[12:59] <elfy> aah - ok - got that
[13:00] <ochosi> ok
[13:00] <ochosi> so basically the ubuntu desktop devs decided to patch that out in their default apps
[13:00] <ochosi> and since xfce didn't support it well at the time (well, that was the main technical reason) we went along and asked this to be patched out for us too
[13:00] <ochosi> however, that has changed, xfce supports it quite well now
[13:01] <ochosi> and it could be that the ubuntu desktop team decides any cycle to revert those patches and to use the apps with CSD in unity
[13:01] <ochosi> so the question is: are we proactive about this and consider reverting the patches for us?
[13:02] <elfy> reverting ends up with us looking like what? 
[13:02] <knome> there's obviously two sides to this
[13:02] <ochosi> or do we think CSD is not easy enough to use etc. so we wanna keep those patches as long as possible
[13:02] <ochosi> or look for alternatives
[13:02] <ochosi> elfy: i'll quickly look for screenshots, one sec
[13:02] <ochosi> but it depends on the app a bit
[13:02] <knome> using what the app provides (CSD) and no need to maintain patches
[13:02] <knome> or
[13:02] <knome> patching them out and keeping consistency and configurability to user
[13:03] <ochosi> 1) "old" calculator: http://screenshots.ubuntu.com/screenshots/g/gcalctool/5112_large.png
[13:03] <knome> i don't think you can affect much how the CSD stuff is laid out
[13:03] <knome> i mean, in which order you have the window controls etc
[13:03] <knome> or can you?
[13:03] <elfy> ochosi: ok - as I assumed, they'd look like they used to 
[13:03] <knome> at least the minimize icon is different too than in greybird xfwm
[13:03] <ochosi> 2) CSD calculator: http://i.imgur.com/oM3v65q.png
[13:04] <ochosi> knome: yeah, i'd have to work on that, but that can be fixed obviously
[13:04] <ochosi> btw, consistency yes, but configurability, not really
[13:04] <knome> well window button layout
[13:04] <ochosi> the amount of possible menuitems/options in an app doesn#t change with CSD
[13:05] <ochosi> no, xfwm4 supposedly syncs that now
[13:05] <knome> aha...
[13:05] <ochosi> so when you change you xfwm4 window button layout, your CSD layout changes too
[13:05] <elfy> aah right
[13:05] <ochosi> it's a simple gtk setting, exposed through xfce4-settings-editor (but auto-synced with xfwm4)
[13:05] <knome> right...
[13:05] <ochosi> so you can also override it
[13:05] <elfy> so I move the buttons about - my calc buttons are reversed to the screeny
[13:06] <knome> i guess if we can make the windows with CSD more like greybird..
[13:06] <ochosi> knome: yeah, the maximize and minimize would be adapted
[13:06] <knome> the CSD window borders are fat
[13:06] <ochosi> well, they're more than window borders
[13:06] <knome> and there's a lot of padding comparing to regular window borders
[13:06] <knome> sure
[13:06] <ochosi> because they hold lots of other buttons
[13:06] <ochosi> yeah, but if you lose menubar+toolbar, you still end up saving pixels
[13:06] <ochosi> (if that's a concern)
[13:07] <knome> size isn't, consistency is
[13:07] <knome> (from my POV)
[13:07] <ochosi> you mean "a concern"?
[13:07] <knome> yes
[13:07] <ochosi> yeah i agree
[13:07] <ochosi> but in the end that might mean that we have to look for alternative applications
[13:07] <ochosi> because this affects many of our default apps
[13:08] <ochosi> evince, calculator, simplescan, etcetc.
[13:08] <knome> yes, and surely, there's no guarantee they won't start using SCD too
[13:08] <ochosi> exactly
[13:08] <knome> i don't think it's sensible to replace those with new apps that are as good
[13:08] <ochosi> although Mate seems to dislike CSD, so we could try relying more on their apps
[13:08] <knome> sensible to think that we can*
[13:08] <ochosi> yeah, probably not
[13:08] <ochosi> i mean for instance with evince i'm *totally* happy
[13:09] <ochosi> and i've never heard a single complaint about it (so far)
[13:09] <ochosi> so i'd hate to replace that with something worse
[13:09] <knome> yep
[13:09] <knome> i don't like the menus in the window borders personally
[13:09] <knome> and another concern is how the menus look opened
[13:09] <ochosi> so anyway, i know this is a big topic, but we have to start thinking about this and discussing it
[13:09] <knome> that's not consistent either
[13:09] <ochosi> aha? which ones?
[13:10] <knome> well for example in calc
[13:10] <knome> open the "file" menu
[13:10] <knome> it has awful padding
[13:10] <ochosi> that can be tweaked
[13:10] <knome> it doesn't look bad, but it looks like it doesn't belong
[13:10] <ochosi> i just haven't spent much time on it
[13:11] <knome> yeah and sure, if we decided not to use CSD, then it would be more or less in vain
[13:13] <dkessel> how does one open such a CSD menu with the keyboard?
[13:14] <ochosi> knome: well we can keep it up as long as possible...
[13:14] <elfy> ochosi: so the options we have basically equate to keep it and hope for the best or proactively move away now 
[13:15] <ochosi> elfy: yeah, that's my view on the subject at least (and i think to some extent bluesabre's)
[13:15] <elfy> given that I'm not sure that anyone is going to be up for fiddling about much in the *next* cycle
[13:15] <ochosi> dkessel: not sure, a11y might be another con of CSD
[13:15] <ochosi> elfy: yes, exactly why i felt i'd rather bring it up now
[13:16] <elfy> so - if we do end up having to do something, then wily would be the time 
[13:16] <elfy> would be my position on it 
[13:16] <ochosi> ok, but on CSD itself?
[13:16] <ochosi> (and yeah, i hope we can agree on what you said there)
[13:17] <elfy> ochosi: so on CSD - you want my opinion on whether to keep that or go *old-school* ? 
[13:18] <ochosi> yup
[13:18] <ochosi> it could be that we have to vote on this in the end
[13:18] <ochosi> (just as an additional note)
[13:18] <ochosi> but i prefer to have a discussion beforehand
[13:18] <elfy> then I prefer not CSD - they always looks odd to me when there are other apps open that aren't CSD
[13:18] <ochosi> in a voting process there's often not enough time to thoroughly explain one's position
[13:18] <elfy> yea :)
[13:19] <ochosi> k
[13:19] <ochosi> btw, we can also proactively try to promote CSD and get consistency back that way
[13:19] <elfy> mmm 
[13:19] <ochosi> we can even try to suggest improvements upstream (e.g. if there are a11y concerns)
[13:19] <ochosi> and obviously that also concerns xfce
[13:20] <elfy> yep
[13:20] <knome> some apps will never have CSD though
[13:20] <knome> ff,tb,lo
[13:20] <elfy> hard for me to  have opinions on this type of thing tbh - I just use whatever I use 
[13:21] <ochosi> knome: yeah, possible
[13:21] <elfy> things have to be REALLY obvious for me to even notice ... 
[13:21] <ochosi> elfy: that's ok (and good to know)
[13:21] <elfy> :)
[13:22] <ochosi> knome: although if more DEs use CSD then the incentive for those apps to support something like CSD might be higher
[13:22] <elfy> like the fact that calc looks odd to me - really obviously different
[13:22] <knome> well i don't know
[13:22] <ochosi> i mean FF already has that sort of menubutton to some extent
[13:22] <knome> what would they do with CSD?
[13:22] <knome> they still need to show a lot of menus and options
[13:22] <ochosi> combine tab bar and window controls
[13:22] <knome> that can't look natural in CSD
[13:22] <knome> yeah, that's ugly
[13:22] <ochosi> well look at chrome
[13:23] <knome> another reason i don't use chrome...
[13:23] <ochosi> it already does that for a while
[13:23] <ochosi> well, in chrome it's configurable
[13:24] <ochosi> either way, i could add another workitem to improve our CSD support so that max and min buttons look like greybird (amongst others)
[13:24] <knome> yep
[13:24] <knome> ++
[13:24] <ochosi> and we can continue the discussion another time
[13:24] <ochosi> this was just meant as a kickstart anyway
[13:24] <elfy> yep
[13:25] <elfy> that makes sense - perhaps start a list thread too with the main points 
[13:25] <ochosi> yeah, ultimately that'll make sense
[13:25] <ochosi> but i'd prefer to discuss it a bit more with other team members before we take it to the list
[13:26] <ochosi> there might be other points (apart from visual consistency and the things i know about) that i might be missing
[13:26] <elfy> ochosi: yep - that makes sense too 
[13:28] <ochosi> elfy: ok, from my pov you can move along with the meeting or finish it
[13:28] <elfy> ochosi: ok ty 
[13:28] <ochosi> i have no other items i wanted to discuss
[13:28] <knome> any items you don't want to discuss?
[13:28] <knome> :P
[13:28] <elfy> heh
[13:29] <elfy> anymore for anymore? 
[13:29] <knome> no, FINISH IT
[13:29] <elfy> #topic Schedule next meeting
[13:29] <elfy> action bluesabre to set next meeting
[13:29] <elfy> #endmeeting
[13:29] <meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Jun  5 13:29:41 2015 UTC.  
[13:29] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2015/xubuntu-devel.2015-06-05-12.30.moin.txt
[13:29] <knome> thanks elfy 
[13:29] <elfy> thanks all 
[13:31] <ochosi> ty elfy 
[13:35] <elfy> I hate US date syntax ... 
[13:35] <knome> :P
[13:35] <elfy> knome: can you delete https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/2015-05-06
[13:35] <knome> done
[13:35] <elfy> meeting page is all done 
[13:36] <elfy> knome: thanks :D
[16:18] <elfy> bluesabre: something awry methinks ... http://i.imgur.com/TlNYZQl.png
[16:21] <elfy> running from a terminal just get 4 deprecated warnings 
[16:30] <elfy> thought I would check ... after remembering I accidentally -proposed,,but live session is the same
[16:43] <elfy> bug 1462445 
[16:43] <elfy> added bugzilla and to blueprint
[17:11] <PaulW2U> elfy: seeing that here too, just confirmed your bug in LP
[17:15] <PaulW2U> Also, I can't seem to close parole
[17:27] <elfy> thanks PaulW2U 
[22:40] <bluesabre> elfy: PaulW2U wily, I presume?
[22:40] <bluesabre> uh oh, I'm next at bat
[22:49] <bluesabre> elfy, not a fan of YYYYMMDD?