[07:11] elfy: good to know. i'll try to prep our themes when i get my new laptop (gah, still 20 days :( ) [07:12] :( [07:12] yeah, that's what you get when you order the ubuntu laptop from dell [07:13] ... [10:36] trusty/utopic/vivid folks: Synced the latest packages to the xfce-4.12 ppa this morning. Some are still building. [10:42] Unit193: if you get a chance, can you work with the greeter 2.0.1 packaging? [10:43] need to migrate the ubuntu conf to the new dirs [10:49] hey bluesabre [10:50] great! [10:50] btw, i pushed another commit and am about to release a new dev version of xfpm [10:50] so you can soon test that hidden panel setting again ;) [10:51] ochosi: cool :) [11:08] bluesabre: will you be here for the meeting today? [11:08] ochosi: can't make it, during travel/work hours [11:09] we can have a quick discussion now though, if you'd like [11:30] bluesabre: sure, and sry, was away for lunch [11:34] are you still around or already gone..? [11:37] elfy: any specific icons in LO that "haven't been ochosi'd" - as you put it - that you would say are high priority for you? [11:38] ochosi: hey [11:38] oh good :) [11:39] so to pick up from before: i will try to release xfpm 1.5.1 this weekend, so maybe we can provide that in the PPA for wily and vivid [11:40] ochosi: sure thing [11:40] ochosi: got a few orange icons on the right... :) http://i.imgur.com/XWXSEgb.png [11:40] Version: 4.4.2.2 [11:40] and wrt LO icons, thanks for fixing the packaging! [11:41] np [11:41] yeah, the insertpagebreak and the insertfield icons havent been fixed yet [11:41] but: look at the beautiful shapes you can insert! [11:41] :D [11:41] for "insert field" i'm still a bit unsure how to represent that [11:42] also the paint tub and brush on the right [11:42] that icon there doesn't make much sense to me tbh [11:42] yeah, although that's sorta okayish [11:42] not going to eliminate all orange icons just for the sake of it ;) [11:42] note: it's not the same orange like the other two icons, so not ubuntu-orange [11:43] "Show Draw Functions", indeed, thats kind of a dumb icon in general [11:43] yeah [11:43] in LO-calc there is a lot more to do [11:44] but i focused on -writer for now [11:44] and even there, i wanna fix the list and indent icons [11:44] yeah [11:44] I won't mention the other apps (non-writer/calc) for a little while [11:45] yeah, they're not as important for now [11:47] you sent me that screenshot of catfish, have you pushed that already? [11:48] ochosi: nope, not yet [11:48] :D [11:48] also, maybe we should discuss our general stance wrt CSD [11:48] its not working atm [11:48] and yeah [11:48] we have some apps already that have CSD (calculator) [11:48] but with many others we pushed for patches that prevent CSD [11:49] i'm wondering whether we should revert that [11:49] e.g. simplescan [11:49] yeah.. in a lot of those cases its ubuntu pushing those patches [11:49] yeah, but we argued that we want to be included :) [11:49] it checks the running DE [11:49] true [11:49] in ubuntu gnome those apps use CSD afaik [11:49] the way they are patched makes them look dump fairly frequently [11:49] *dumb [11:49] dump? [11:49] :) [11:50] yeah, so maybe we should discuss that as a team or something [11:50] not sure [11:50] but, I also know that several folks here don't like CSDs, so it should be a broader conversation in xubuntu (and probably xfce) [11:50] with xfce there are no plans to go for going for csd [11:51] although i could imagine we could implement a setting for xfce apps [11:51] i mean a general one [11:51] e.g. in xfce4-session [11:51] I don't think a setting is necessary there [11:51] with "broader discussion in xubuntu" you mean broader than theme? [11:52] well i could imagine that we implement optional CSD in xfce apps [11:52] xfwm4 supports it gracefully, gtk 3.16 handles without compositing [11:52] I don't think it should be an optional thing [11:52] right, why? [11:52] (apart from the obvious ones: code complexity, maintainability) [11:52] toolbar+menubar != headerbar... no need to completely change the interface for a different titlebar [11:53] yeah but headerbar+menubar looks really silly [11:53] yeah, and in that case it should not use a headerbar [11:54] if an app is going to support it, then it should do it fully and not have a switch to toggle [11:54] imo [11:54] :) [11:55] k :) [11:55] in the same line of thought, I don't think it should be patched away in ubuntu ;) [11:55] yeah, many ubuntu devs see it that way [11:55] they might revert those patches actually [11:55] it could happen any release, just depends on compiz supporting CSD better [11:56] which is why i'm thinking it might be a good idea to be proactive about that [11:56] although i have no idea what to do with e.g. evince, i mean how that would look without ubuntu patching the gnome app-menus to be menus in a menubar [11:57] we might have to come up with a solution for that problem [11:57] ochosi: gtk handles that, drops the app menus into a menubutton on the headerbar [11:57] oh ok [11:57] i thought there was more to it than that [11:57] I think thats part of GtkApplication === benonsoftware is now known as MerryChristmas [11:58] still, i wonder how all the menuitems in evince fit into a single menubutton.. === MerryChristmas is now known as benonsoftware [11:59] er, GtkApplicationWindow [11:59] https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkApplicationWindow.html#GtkApplicationWindow--show-menubar [11:59] yeah [11:59] anyway, gotta run for now [11:59] maybe you have something to talk about in the meeting now ;) [12:01] hah [12:01] alright [12:01] ttyl and hf! [12:02] ochosi: I tend not to look tbh (sorry) but mostly I calc than writer - and there appears to be a *lot* [12:02] and then I see the mention of calc in backlog ... [12:13] elfy: yeah, i'll work on calc at some point [12:13] thing is, i won't just replace icons for the sake of it, if they're okay then i'll leave them [12:14] (also because of limited time/motivation) [12:14] elfy, can you use ubuntu-bug if you use a PPA? [12:15] oh yeah... [12:15] * knome facepalms [12:17] "It also helps if bugs you find with xfce packages can be reported on ..." [12:17] not english :D [12:21] it *is* English [12:21] well... [12:21] just not grammatically correct :) [12:22] engrish [12:22] lol [12:29] !team | meeting [12:29] meeting: bluesabre, elfy, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193 [12:30] #startmeeting [12:30] Meeting started Fri Jun 5 12:30:11 2015 UTC. The chair is elfy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [12:30] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick [12:30] I'll hang about for a minute or two to see if anyone turns up ... [12:30] well i'm here.. [12:31] o/ [12:32] so am I knome :) [12:32] hei dkessel [12:32] hej knome [12:32] hi dkessel [12:32] hey elfy [12:32] #topic Open action items [12:33] none i guess [12:33] this is easy as pie - only one to look at and that's -dev and -qa and I've got to assume that bluesabre and ochosi will ask [12:33] oh there is one.. [12:33] yep [12:34] and Unit193 and Noskcaj and micahg [12:34] #done xubuntu-dev to liase with -qa when specific package testing required [12:34] meh [12:34] heh [12:34] #topic Team Updates [12:35] anything from you knome ? [12:35] #info knome has been working on website content [12:35] that's all [12:35] #info milestone image testing dealt with [12:36] that's all [12:36] move along I guess [12:36] #topic Announcements [12:37] nothing that I'm aware of [12:38] #topic Discussion [12:38] #subtopic Rebooting the FAQ articles [12:38] knome: that's your item [12:38] anything happened with that recently? [12:40] guessing not then ... [12:40] nope, but the work continues [12:40] :) [12:40] sorry, i'm in a flu and have my other nostril dripping blood more or less consistently... [12:40] so people are doing that? [12:40] :| [12:40] we'll do at least something [12:41] at least bluesabre said he could write something [12:41] if not else, i guess i'll push the "back to the basics" series forward [12:41] ok - so any need for us to revisit this each meeting still ? [12:41] likely not [12:41] or take it to mailing lists when needed or something [12:41] i'll just send a follow-up to the ML at some point [12:41] yep [12:41] ack [12:42] #action knome to follow-up on the FAQ reboot on ML [12:42] ACTION: knome to follow-up on the FAQ reboot on ML [12:42] #subtopic Discuss blueprints and plans for 15.10 [12:42] heh [12:43] which is ochosi's bag afaik - pretty sure the blueprints are being/been sorted [12:43] looks like it [12:43] yep [12:44] definately [12:44] #action ochosi to follow up with team leads re blueprints as needed [12:44] ACTION: ochosi to follow up with team leads re blueprints as needed [12:44] #subtopic Core as image [12:44] I put this on here expecting to set a time that bluesabre was here -which was fail :) [12:45] personally my view is that it'd be nice to do that - maybe aim for the next cycle proper - which would be even nicer [12:46] as far as QA goes - if we do that, then QA would do what is necessary for that [12:46] not got anything else to say on that though [12:47] anyone else got anything to say on that? [12:48] yep [12:48] what you say sounds good [12:50] anymore - if not I'll move along [12:51] o/ [12:51] sorry for being late [12:51] hi ochosi [12:52] ochosi: anything you want to bring up? [12:52] had an important call [12:52] i'll quickly catch up backlog wise, 1min [12:53] okey doke [12:53] i'm surprised there were no team updates so far [12:54] not much to be said QA wise atm [12:54] knome: what about the website content restructuring? (i mean sure, it's on the ML, but still) [12:54] elfy: what about not using the tracker this cycle? [12:54] or has that previously been discussed/announced in a meeting? [12:55] yea - that came up previously [12:55] the draft mail is following up [12:55] mkay [12:55] ochosi, what about that? [12:56] knome: well i dunno, what are team updates about if not e.g. that? [12:56] ochosi: on the 12th May [12:56] ochosi, i did the update [12:56] "working with website content" [12:56] * ochosi facepalms [12:56] sorry, overread that [12:56] np [12:56] :) [12:56] guess i should've taken 1min30sec to read the backlog instead of just 1min [12:57] lol [12:57] ha ha ha [12:57] anyhoo, there is a discussion item i wanted to bring up quickly [12:57] #chair ochosi [12:57] Current chairs: elfy ochosi [12:57] we won't finish today, but i would like to hear both your opinions (at least) [12:57] then you can topic it [12:57] (unless you can without chair ... ) [12:58] #subtopic Discuss Xubuntu's position on CSD (client side decorations) [12:58] can't [12:58] knome: ty [12:58] sooo [12:58] so far, we've tried to get ubuntu's patches to work for xubuntu as well, which means our apps look like before [12:58] btw, are we all clear on what CSD is? [12:58] not completely ... [12:59] ok, in vivid/wily, open the calculator [12:59] maybe you should post reference for reference [12:59] that's CSD [12:59] so not using a traditional window decoration [12:59] but one that looks like a toolbar with window controls [12:59] aah - ok - got that [13:00] ok [13:00] so basically the ubuntu desktop devs decided to patch that out in their default apps [13:00] and since xfce didn't support it well at the time (well, that was the main technical reason) we went along and asked this to be patched out for us too [13:00] however, that has changed, xfce supports it quite well now [13:01] and it could be that the ubuntu desktop team decides any cycle to revert those patches and to use the apps with CSD in unity [13:01] so the question is: are we proactive about this and consider reverting the patches for us? [13:02] reverting ends up with us looking like what? [13:02] there's obviously two sides to this [13:02] or do we think CSD is not easy enough to use etc. so we wanna keep those patches as long as possible [13:02] or look for alternatives [13:02] elfy: i'll quickly look for screenshots, one sec [13:02] but it depends on the app a bit [13:02] using what the app provides (CSD) and no need to maintain patches [13:02] or [13:02] patching them out and keeping consistency and configurability to user [13:03] 1) "old" calculator: http://screenshots.ubuntu.com/screenshots/g/gcalctool/5112_large.png [13:03] i don't think you can affect much how the CSD stuff is laid out [13:03] i mean, in which order you have the window controls etc [13:03] or can you? [13:03] ochosi: ok - as I assumed, they'd look like they used to [13:03] at least the minimize icon is different too than in greybird xfwm [13:03] 2) CSD calculator: http://i.imgur.com/oM3v65q.png [13:04] knome: yeah, i'd have to work on that, but that can be fixed obviously [13:04] btw, consistency yes, but configurability, not really [13:04] well window button layout [13:04] the amount of possible menuitems/options in an app doesn#t change with CSD [13:05] no, xfwm4 supposedly syncs that now [13:05] aha... [13:05] so when you change you xfwm4 window button layout, your CSD layout changes too [13:05] aah right [13:05] it's a simple gtk setting, exposed through xfce4-settings-editor (but auto-synced with xfwm4) [13:05] right... [13:05] so you can also override it [13:05] so I move the buttons about - my calc buttons are reversed to the screeny [13:06] i guess if we can make the windows with CSD more like greybird.. [13:06] knome: yeah, the maximize and minimize would be adapted [13:06] the CSD window borders are fat [13:06] well, they're more than window borders [13:06] and there's a lot of padding comparing to regular window borders [13:06] sure [13:06] because they hold lots of other buttons [13:06] yeah, but if you lose menubar+toolbar, you still end up saving pixels [13:06] (if that's a concern) [13:07] size isn't, consistency is [13:07] (from my POV) [13:07] you mean "a concern"? [13:07] yes [13:07] yeah i agree [13:07] but in the end that might mean that we have to look for alternative applications [13:07] because this affects many of our default apps [13:08] evince, calculator, simplescan, etcetc. [13:08] yes, and surely, there's no guarantee they won't start using SCD too [13:08] exactly [13:08] i don't think it's sensible to replace those with new apps that are as good [13:08] although Mate seems to dislike CSD, so we could try relying more on their apps [13:08] sensible to think that we can* [13:08] yeah, probably not [13:08] i mean for instance with evince i'm *totally* happy [13:09] and i've never heard a single complaint about it (so far) [13:09] so i'd hate to replace that with something worse [13:09] yep [13:09] i don't like the menus in the window borders personally [13:09] and another concern is how the menus look opened [13:09] so anyway, i know this is a big topic, but we have to start thinking about this and discussing it [13:09] that's not consistent either [13:09] aha? which ones? [13:10] well for example in calc [13:10] open the "file" menu [13:10] it has awful padding [13:10] that can be tweaked [13:10] it doesn't look bad, but it looks like it doesn't belong [13:10] i just haven't spent much time on it [13:11] yeah and sure, if we decided not to use CSD, then it would be more or less in vain [13:13] how does one open such a CSD menu with the keyboard? [13:14] knome: well we can keep it up as long as possible... [13:14] ochosi: so the options we have basically equate to keep it and hope for the best or proactively move away now [13:15] elfy: yeah, that's my view on the subject at least (and i think to some extent bluesabre's) [13:15] given that I'm not sure that anyone is going to be up for fiddling about much in the *next* cycle [13:15] dkessel: not sure, a11y might be another con of CSD [13:15] elfy: yes, exactly why i felt i'd rather bring it up now [13:16] so - if we do end up having to do something, then wily would be the time [13:16] would be my position on it [13:16] ok, but on CSD itself? [13:16] (and yeah, i hope we can agree on what you said there) [13:17] ochosi: so on CSD - you want my opinion on whether to keep that or go *old-school* ? [13:18] yup [13:18] it could be that we have to vote on this in the end [13:18] (just as an additional note) [13:18] but i prefer to have a discussion beforehand [13:18] then I prefer not CSD - they always looks odd to me when there are other apps open that aren't CSD [13:18] in a voting process there's often not enough time to thoroughly explain one's position [13:18] yea :) [13:19] k [13:19] btw, we can also proactively try to promote CSD and get consistency back that way [13:19] mmm [13:19] we can even try to suggest improvements upstream (e.g. if there are a11y concerns) [13:19] and obviously that also concerns xfce [13:20] yep [13:20] some apps will never have CSD though [13:20] ff,tb,lo [13:20] hard for me to have opinions on this type of thing tbh - I just use whatever I use [13:21] knome: yeah, possible [13:21] things have to be REALLY obvious for me to even notice ... [13:21] elfy: that's ok (and good to know) [13:21] :) [13:22] knome: although if more DEs use CSD then the incentive for those apps to support something like CSD might be higher [13:22] like the fact that calc looks odd to me - really obviously different [13:22] well i don't know [13:22] i mean FF already has that sort of menubutton to some extent [13:22] what would they do with CSD? [13:22] they still need to show a lot of menus and options [13:22] combine tab bar and window controls [13:22] that can't look natural in CSD [13:22] yeah, that's ugly [13:22] well look at chrome [13:23] another reason i don't use chrome... [13:23] it already does that for a while [13:23] well, in chrome it's configurable [13:24] either way, i could add another workitem to improve our CSD support so that max and min buttons look like greybird (amongst others) [13:24] yep [13:24] ++ [13:24] and we can continue the discussion another time [13:24] this was just meant as a kickstart anyway [13:24] yep [13:25] that makes sense - perhaps start a list thread too with the main points [13:25] yeah, ultimately that'll make sense [13:25] but i'd prefer to discuss it a bit more with other team members before we take it to the list [13:26] there might be other points (apart from visual consistency and the things i know about) that i might be missing [13:26] ochosi: yep - that makes sense too [13:28] elfy: ok, from my pov you can move along with the meeting or finish it [13:28] ochosi: ok ty [13:28] i have no other items i wanted to discuss [13:28] any items you don't want to discuss? [13:28] :P [13:28] heh [13:29] anymore for anymore? [13:29] no, FINISH IT [13:29] #topic Schedule next meeting [13:29] action bluesabre to set next meeting [13:29] #endmeeting [13:29] Meeting ended Fri Jun 5 13:29:41 2015 UTC. [13:29] Minutes: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2015/xubuntu-devel.2015-06-05-12.30.moin.txt [13:29] thanks elfy [13:29] thanks all [13:31] ty elfy [13:35] I hate US date syntax ... [13:35] :P [13:35] knome: can you delete https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/2015-05-06 [13:35] done [13:35] meeting page is all done [13:36] knome: thanks :D [16:18] bluesabre: something awry methinks ... http://i.imgur.com/TlNYZQl.png [16:21] running from a terminal just get 4 deprecated warnings [16:30] thought I would check ... after remembering I accidentally -proposed,,but live session is the same [16:43] bug 1462445 [16:43] bug 1462445 in parole (Ubuntu) "Parole starts with blank screen" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1462445 [16:43] added bugzilla and to blueprint [17:11] elfy: seeing that here too, just confirmed your bug in LP [17:15] Also, I can't seem to close parole [17:27] thanks PaulW2U [22:40] elfy: PaulW2U wily, I presume? [22:40] uh oh, I'm next at bat [22:49] elfy, not a fan of YYYYMMDD?