[02:29] <liuxg> how can I invoke scope from my QML application?
[05:10] <dupingping> hi, everyone.
[05:10] <dupingping> How many Ubuntu touch users in the world?
[05:12]  * ahoneybun raises his hand
[06:15] <dholbach> good morning
[06:21] <liuxg> does anyone know how to invoke a scope from an application? thanks
[07:32] <aquarisman> technical issue on kirillin here: apt-get install libudev-dev works well on stable but not on rc or proposed-rc. I get:
[07:32] <aquarisman> The following packages have unmet dependencies:  libudev-dev : Depends: libudev1 (= 219-7ubuntu3) but 219-7ubuntu6 is to be installed
[07:32] <aquarisman> any ideas why?
[08:35] <aquarisman> any devs here?
[08:52] <davmor2> aquarisman: lots, ask a question and they might be able to help you
[08:52] <ogra_> davmor2, he did above :)
[08:52] <sturmflut2> good morning
[08:53] <ogra_> aquarisman, kind of looks like your device doesnt know about the PPA
[08:53] <davmor2> ah missed that
[09:00] <sturmflut2> beuno: Ping
[09:01] <popey> om26er: neither will chroots, will they?
[09:01] <popey> er, s/om2er/ogra/
[09:02] <aquarisman> @ogra_ I expect things to work with the default apt/sources.list - should I add a repository?
[09:02] <aquarisman> @ogra_ and as I said - things work perfectly with the stable branch. problems are only when I try the rc branch.
[09:03] <popey> stable is utopic, rc is vivid+ppa
[09:03] <popey> well, utopic-ish
[09:03] <ogra_> aquarisman, well, i'm not sure we even add the ppa to the soucres.list at all ... check it
[09:03] <aquarisman> @ogra_ what would be the "workaround" to solve this mismatch? can it get upstream to proposed-rc then?
[09:04] <ogra_> we dont test deb stuff (except from when people test changes before they enter the archive but that sets up tehz PPA)
[09:05] <ogra_> just add the PPA if you want to use deb packages ... it will break anyway eventually and you need to re-flash so it is rather moot if you modify it more i guess
[09:05] <aquarisman> I try to install other software that requires libudev-dev and it is just broken on rc (and if nothing changes, it will be broken on the next "stable")
[09:06] <aquarisman> no problem to hack a little now, but I would like the stable branch to work out of the box.
[09:07] <ogra_> well, can you check if the PPA is really not enabled anywhere
[09:07] <ogra_> if you are 100% sure,. fiule a bug against livecd-rootfs
[09:07] <aquarisman> can you explain more what are the differences between 219-7ubuntu3 and 219-7ubuntu6 ?
[09:07]  * ogra_ has no idea ... i dont look at udev usually 
[09:08] <ogra_> look at the changelogs on launchpad perhaps ...
[09:08] <aquarisman> I just play with OTG usb stuff. that's a cool thing to have usb on your phone.
[09:09] <ogra_> well, it will most likely conflict with the gadget driver
[09:09] <aquarisman> for me it is already a desktop replacement when I connect the keyboard and fire up the shell.
[09:09] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Monday, and happy Nature Photography Day! 😃
[09:09] <ogra_> (unless the android driver actually has OTG support ... which is really device specififc if it does)
[09:10] <aquarisman> As I said - everything works perfectly with the latest "stable". Things break only on newer versions.
[09:10] <aquarisman> I work with the Aquaris E4.5
[09:19] <aquarisman> @ogra_ is the PPA enabled on the stable branch? Where can I check it online?
[09:20] <ogra_> my install has /etc/apt/sources.list.d/extra-ppas.list
[09:44] <cedian_linux> Hi
[09:45] <cedian_linux> Thanks to mariogrip I got apparmor
[10:02] <nhaines> So if everything's all lined up for bug 1464159, when might we expect to see that on the phone?  OTA-5 perhaps?
[10:02] <aquarisman> @ogra_ thanks. I will install rc and try adding this repository before apt-get install libudev-dev
[10:05] <ogra_> aquarisman, rc-proposed should have it enabled alöready
[10:06] <popey> nhaines: doesn't look fixed, so OTA-5 at the earliest
[10:07] <nhaines> popey: thanks.  I think it needed the language packs to be pulled before it would be fixed.
[10:07] <aquarisman> @ogra_ I tried rc-proposed 2 days ago and the apt-get install libudev-dev failed. was the ppa added lately?
[10:07] <nhaines> Shame about the timing.  I wish I'd noticed a week before.
[10:07] <ogra_> aquarisman, several months ago
[10:07] <popey> om26er: aquarisman the version deps of libudev-dev looks wrong to me here on wily
[10:07] <aquarisman> @ogra_ than it is not the solution ...
[10:08] <popey> depends on a specific version of libudev1
[10:08] <popey> or archive skew?
[10:08] <aquarisman> just in case, /etc/apt/sources.list.d/extra-ppas.list on my stable has this contents: "deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/ci-train-ppa-service/stable-snapshot/ubuntu vivid main"
[10:08] <ogra_> popey, -dev versions always depend oin their rescpective binary version
[10:08] <aquarisman> should I use the same on proposed-rc ?
[10:08] <popey> ogra_: but apt-cache search didn't find the matching binary version here
[10:09] <ogra_> can you define "stable" ?
[10:09] <ogra_> popey, wow, on wily ?
[10:09] <popey> unless I hadn't had enough coffee and didn't interpret correctly
[10:09] <ogra_> on vivid that can happen due to the PPA ... on wily which uses the archive only this shouldnt be possible at all
[10:10] <popey> ogra_: i was looking at a 15.04 armhf chroot
[10:10] <aquarisman> @popey: I got " The following packages have unmet dependencies:  libudev-dev : Depends: libudev1 (= 219-7ubuntu3) but 219-7ubuntu6 is to be installed"
[10:10] <ogra_> (thouh on vivid it would also only happen if someone uploaded udev to the PPA ... PPAs dont have proposed migration tests which usually blopcks the broken landing)
[10:10] <popey> ogra_: http://paste.ubuntu.com/11718659/
[10:11] <Sleep_Walker> hi, sorry for my silly question - I'm trying to follow http://developer.ubuntu.com/en/start/ubuntu-sdk/installing-the-sdk/ on my freshly made vivid chroot
[10:11] <ogra_> popey, looks all fine to me
[10:11] <Sleep_Walker> it said it is for 14.04 (trusty something) - can I use it anyway?
[10:11] <popey> Sleep_Walker: it says 14.04 (trusty *onwards*)
[10:12] <popey> meaning, from 14.04 onward, meaning, yes, also 15.04
[10:12] <ogra_> popey, the candidates have the same version ... and you dont have libudev-dev installed for the current version
[10:12] <popey> hmm
[10:12] <popey> i misread it, sorry.
[10:12] <ogra_> all correct as it should be :)
[10:12] <Sleep_Walker> popey: that page yes, but information shown after add-apt-repository no
[10:12] <ogra_> not sure what aquarisman sees there
[10:12] <aquarisman> so what is the conclusion - libudev-dev can be installed on proposed-rc or not? Can anyone try it?
[10:13] <popey> Sleep_Walker: i think you're overthinking it. just do what it says :)
[10:13] <aquarisman> [on my kirillin it didn't work]
[10:13] <Sleep_Walker> aye sir!
[10:13] <popey> aquarisman: I am on ubuntu-touch/rc-proposed/bq-aquaris.en here, is that the channel you mean?
[10:13] <aquarisman> yes
[10:14] <popey> let me try
[10:14] <aquarisman> thanks :)
[10:14] <popey> np
[10:14] <aquarisman> can you check which version was installed then?
[10:14] <popey> yeah
[10:14] <popey> i doubt libudev-dev is installed by default
[10:15] <ogra_> heh, yeah
[10:15] <popey> phablet@ubuntu-phablet:~$ apt-cache policy libudev-dev:armhf
[10:15] <popey> libudev-dev: Installed: (none)
[10:15] <popey> yeah, it's not.
[10:15] <ogra_> whats the Candidate ?
[10:16] <popey> http://paste.ubuntu.com/11718671/
[10:16] <aquarisman> and if you try to install libudev1 do you get 219-7ubuntu3 or  219-7ubuntu6
[10:16] <popey> 219-7ubuntu6
[10:16] <ogra_> yeah, looks fine
[10:16] <popey> i have   Installed: 219-7ubuntu6
[10:16] <popey> of libudev1
[10:16] <popey> aquarisman: do "apt-cache policy libudev1"
[10:16]  * ogra_ looks forward to snappy based phones ... 
[10:16] <popey> hah, shush
[10:16] <ogra_> then we wont have such probs anymore :)
[10:17] <popey> #shitcanonicalsays
[10:17] <ogra_> #shitiworkon
[10:17] <aquarisman> ok. I will try to flash again proposed-rc on the phone and reinstall. maybe it is something I messed in the repositories.
[10:17] <ogra_> :P
[10:17] <popey> aquarisman: http://paste.ubuntu.com/11718674/
[10:17] <popey> aquarisman: hang on
[10:17] <popey> run that command first
[10:17] <ogra_> i guess your package lists are just outdated
[10:17] <aquarisman> now I am on stable, so there is not much to test.
[10:17] <popey> yeah, probably
[10:18] <popey> oh, shame
[10:18] <ogra_> since the package db is readonly and we dont uipdate it ever
[10:18] <aquarisman> all repositories change with reflash, right?
[10:18] <ogra_> (but the db on the server moves on)
[10:18] <aquarisman> oh - so how do I "reset" the package db then?
[10:18] <popey> sudo apt-get update
[10:19] <popey> same as always
[10:20] <aquarisman> so, do I get fresh sources.list* with ubuntu-device-flash touch --channel ubuntu-touch/proposed-rc/bq-aquaris.en or not?
[10:20] <popey> you get one that _was_ fresh
[10:20] <popey> when the image was built
[10:20] <ogra_> right
[10:20] <popey> then you need to flip it RW and "sudo apt-get update"
[10:20] <aquarisman> sure :)
[10:21] <aquarisman> I just mean that my potential old garbage is deleted
[10:21] <popey> it will be gone by the reflash
[10:21] <aquarisman> ok. I will try later and report here.
[10:21] <popey> but you still need to apt-get update
[10:21] <aquarisman> ok.
[10:21] <ogra_> it formates the partitions before flashing the new image
[10:21] <popey> also, you should use chroots :)
[10:21] <ogra_> -e
[10:21] <ogra_> yeah
[10:21] <popey> rather than build on device
[10:21] <aquarisman> why chroot? I work on the device?
[10:21] <popey> I used to build on devices, then I saw the light
[10:22] <ogra_> even on the device you should use chroots
[10:22] <popey> yeah, much more flexible on pc than on device
[10:22] <popey> and faster
[10:22] <popey> unless your main computing device is a Commodore 64
[11:04] <sturmflut2> Are there any plans to give the user control over outgoing remote connections? I would like to see an option that enables a permission dialogie when an app tries to access a remote host for the first time.
[11:04] <ogra_> sturmflut2, accesses in what way ?
[11:05] <sturmflut2> ogra_: All of them, every try to establish a connection to a remote host.
[11:06] <ogra_> you mean you want a trust prompt for every http connection ?
[11:06]  * ogra_ doubts that would be usable 
[11:06] <sturmflut2> ogra_: Not for every single one, a dialogue that appears the first time and has a "remember this answer" option would already be enough.
[11:07] <ogra_> well, what would you gain by that ?
[11:08] <ogra_> (we have such prompts for all local actions so an app can not access local data without you knowing ... i think it is kind of assumed that apps can beyond this always access a remote server)
[11:09] <sturmflut2> ogra_: Well, currently you don't know what apps are doing behind your back. It's just "network disabled" or "network enabled". That's a bit too binary for my taste.
[11:09] <ogra_> why ? they cant access anything locally
[11:10] <ogra_> what do you gain by knowing an app accesses port 2567 on a remote server
[11:10] <ogra_> it wont be able to track your location, read aqny data, access the mic or camera without you knwoing
[11:10] <sturmflut2> A fake Telegram app could send all my messages to a rogue server
[11:11] <sturmflut2> There's nothing preventing DTelegram, Webogram or Sommergram from doing that
[11:11] <ogra_> well but if you install a telegram app you kind of expect it to connect to a server
[11:11] <ogra_> how would a user know that the server it accesses is some third party one ?
[11:12] <sturmflut2> I think I would notice that "http://zhukov.github.io/webogram/" doesn't look like a proper Telegram server
[11:12]  * ogra_ thinks such apps can only be identified via downvoting in the store and bad recommendations
[11:12] <ogra_> having such a prompt would gain you nothing
[11:12] <ogra_> users would just click it away
[11:13] <ogra_> it doesnt look like a proper telegram server for someone who knows what a proper telegram server is ... that wont help
[11:13] <sturmflut2> That's why I'm asking for an optional dialogue. One for us developers. So it gets easier to spot bad behavior.
[11:13] <sturmflut2> Currently I have to use phablet-shell and tcpdump and stuff
[11:14] <ogra_> well, file a whishlist bu ... but i dont think it is a good idea to perster the iuser with prompts for something he expects and which will have only cryptic info for normal people
[11:14] <ogra_> *bug
[11:14] <sturmflut2> Sure, the option would be off by default
[11:14] <popey> package up tcpdump and wrap it on some qml :)
[11:14] <ogra_> popey, +1
[11:15] <ogra_> like the nmap tool
[11:15] <popey> yeah, that's handy
[11:15]  * ogra_ still waits for a proper terminal widget 
[11:15] <popey> I was at a conf at the weekend and someone said "yeah, I really need a wifi scanner app before I could use Ubuntu phone".
[11:15] <popey> So I showed him the wifi analyzer app
[11:15] <popey> Then he said "Yeah, I also need an app for port scanning machines"
[11:15] <ogra_> so you can just hand it the command to the widget and have i.e. htop working
[11:15] <popey> So I showed him the nmap app
[11:16] <popey> "Oh! Okay, I think I might get one then!"
[11:16] <ogra_> haha
[11:16]  * ogra_ wants a terminal-app-container :)
[11:16] <ogra_> like the webapp container
[11:17] <sturmflut2> popey, ogra_: That's absolutely not the same. tcpdump doesn't decode protocols and can't look into encrypted connections. A proper system dialogue could tap into Qt and JavaScript and show you the actual hostname and maybe even the URL.
[11:17] <sturmflut2> Not even tshark would properly solve the problem.
[11:17] <ogra_> well, tcpdump wouldnt work anyway ...
[11:17] <ogra_> inside a confined click...
[11:17] <popey> no other platform does this, for good reason
[11:17] <cedian_linux> How can I find log data?
[11:18] <ogra_> ceedsystem logs are in /var/log as usual
[11:18] <ogra_> cedian_linux, ^^^
[11:18] <sturmflut2> At the moment webapp-container doesn't even show you the whitelist URL it's been called with. You have to take the .click apart and look at the desktop file to see what's happening.
[11:18] <sturmflut2> cedian_linux: http://sturmflut.github.io/ubuntu/touch/2015/05/15/hacking-ubuntu-touch-part-6-logfiles/
[11:18] <ogra_> app logs in ~/.cache/upstart/
[11:18] <cedian_linux> I mean logs of hardware ogra_
[11:19] <ogra_> what are "logs of hardware" ?
[11:19] <cedian_linux> Thanks sturmflut2
[11:19] <sturmflut2> It really was worth the effort to write all this down
[11:19] <ogra_> yeah
[11:19] <cedian_linux> ogra_ I meant kernel issues etc ogra_
[11:20] <ogra_> cedian_linux, they are in syslog
[11:20] <cedian_linux> sorry accidentally wrote 2 times ogra_
[11:20] <ogra_> and indeed you can see them also with the dmesg command
[11:20] <cedian_linux> nice
[11:21] <sturmflut2> cedian_linux: Lots of hardware messages also get logged to the Android logging system
[11:21] <ogra_> right
[11:21] <cedian_linux> where is that stored?
[11:21] <sturmflut2> cedian_linux: First chapter of the article I posted
[11:21] <ogra_> in ram ... you need to use the locgat command to read it
[11:21] <cedian_linux> Oj
[11:21] <cedian_linux> ok
[11:22] <cedian_linux> Ogra_ are you from canonical?
[11:22] <ogra_> i'm from germany ...
[11:22] <ogra_> :)
[11:23] <ogra_> but yes, i work for canonical
[11:23] <cedian_linux> I thought that already since I'i've seen your public files which are pretty cool
[11:24] <cedian_linux> they are on people.canonical.com
[11:24] <ogra_> heh, yeah, my people.c.c account is a big mess :)
[11:24]  * ogra_ needs to clean that up one day 
[11:25] <cedian_linux> Yeah
[11:28] <cedian_linux> This one is nice people.canonical.com/~ogra/touchbook-netboot.jpg
[11:29] <ogra_> heh, thats ancient :)
[11:29] <ogra_> (5 years(
[11:30] <cedian_linux> It's pretty I'm 15 but love ancient stuff
[11:30] <ogra_> this was the first device where you could detach the screen to have a tablet :)
[11:31] <ogra_> was before asus came up with the transformer netbooks
[11:32] <cedian_linux> Or people.canonical.com/~ogra/ubuntu-mobile-intrepid.png
[11:32] <cedian_linux> yeah and I've got a ancient laptop front 2011 an acer aspire which works still
[11:33] <cedian_linux> Ubuntu is pretty
[11:34] <cedian_linux> some stuff is too easy, that's why I also use Gen too to make it hard
[11:35] <cedian_linux> Ogra_ but how can I upgrade my preinstalled touch tar g?
[11:35] <cedian_linux> tar.gz
[11:40] <Se7> hellou all
[11:40] <Se7> long time for me :)
[11:41] <cedian_linux> Hi Se7
[11:42] <Se7> hi cedian_linux :)
[11:43] <ogra_> cedian_linux, with ubuntu-device-flash ...
[11:43] <ogra_> (or by setting up a system-image server like Tassadar has for the nexus5 builds)
[11:44] <Se7> anyone knows if it s possible to send mms??whith ubuntu phone
[11:46] <cedian_linux> Thanks ogra_
[11:50] <cedian_linux> ogra_ how long are you already working on Ubuntu for phones etc?
[11:51] <ogra_> for phones ... hmm,. i think 3 years ... pretty much when they were first announced publically
[11:56] <cedian_linux> nice
[12:03] <Sleep_Walker> oh, finally running ubuntu-sdk for the first time :')
[12:05] <cedian_linux> I ran it already sleep_walker sadly enough Ubuntu edge failed/was dead
[12:06] <Sleep_Walker> don't ruin my little victory today ;b
[12:07] <cedian_linux> I'm trying to make an app
[12:07] <cedian_linux> :)
[12:07] <Sleep_Walker> after all the attempts to provide native packages for openSUSE for ubuntu-sdk I ended with ubuntu in chroot ;b
[12:07] <cedian_linux> failed fetching
[12:08] <cedian_linux> I've installed Ubuntu instead of gentoo on my internal drive I got gentoo  external
[13:13] <cedian_linux> Trying some stuff for sound and camera
[13:26] <sturmflut2> popey, ogra_: Hmmm, I thought it over. What about an optional "Audit Mode"? When activated, it simply tells the runtime environments and the system to log specific app activity, like outgoing connection attempts and other things that could be interesting. I know that I can do most of that with strace and friends, but as said lots of information is lost when such low-level tools are used.
[13:26] <popey> still not a fan :)
[13:27] <sturmflut2> popey: Well, it would make *my* life easier ;)
[13:27] <ogra_> write it then :)
[13:27] <ogra_> phone-debugger_0.1_all.click
[13:28] <ogra_> woah, new terminal is 8M big !
[13:28] <ogra_> crazy
[13:28] <cedian_linux> Really?! Is there a new app ogra_?
[13:29] <dholbach> ogra_, fat package
[13:29] <ogra_> yeah, its a wobbly
[13:29] <ogra_> :P
[13:29] <ogra_> *all wobbly
[13:29] <ogra_> cedian_linux, it works on x86 too now
[13:29] <popey> be glad we don't also support powerpc and mips on the phone
[13:29] <popey> would be even bigger than
[13:29] <ogra_> just wait
[13:29] <popey> hah
[13:30] <ogra_> snappy supports amd64
[13:30] <ogra_> so you add another third
[13:30] <cedian_linux> ogra_ the new app works great
[13:30] <ogra_> and once that TV settopbox manufacturere makes a good offer to canonical you'll see MIPS too ;)
[13:30] <cedian_linux> I need arm ogra_
[13:30] <dholbach> snappy will have deduplication and be clever about downloading stuff, right? :)
[13:31] <ogra_> theoretically :)
[13:32] <ogra_> mzanetti, wow, shell rotation is quite annoying on the arale ... (i always hit the button and end up on the home screen unconditionally)
[13:33] <mzanetti> ogra_, I blame that button
[13:33] <ogra_> me too
[13:33] <ogra_> we should have killed it :/
[13:33] <mzanetti> it should not be there
[13:33] <mzanetti> yeah
[13:33] <ogra_> well, the led should
[13:33] <ogra_> just the button function should eb off
[13:33] <mzanetti> ogra_, well, we can't even control the led
[13:33] <ogra_> *be
[13:33] <ogra_> you can ... via /proc
[13:33] <mzanetti> oh
[13:34]  * ogra_ had it running as HDD eld for a while 
[13:34] <mzanetti> one sec, need to find a bug report
[13:34] <ogra_> *led
[13:34] <ogra_> it is actually very interestong to see the dosk IO
[13:34] <ogra_> *disk
[13:34] <dobey> mandel: how do i get debug logging for u-d-m?
[13:35] <mzanetti> ogra_, can you add that information to here please: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity8/+bug/1461682
[13:35] <ogra_> mzanetti, yeah, i know that bug ...
[13:35] <ogra_> it functions differently on the arale ... someone has to write a backend for that
[13:36] <popey> its just in a different place in /sys I thought
[13:36] <popey> I certainly poked at it just fine
[13:36] <ogra_> mzanetti, cat  /sys/class/leds/mx-led/trigger
[13:37] <cedian_linux> ogra_ where's phone debugger 0.1.click?
[13:37] <ogra_> cedian_linux, that was a joke :)
[13:37] <cedian_linux> ok
[13:37] <mzanetti> ogra_, thanks
[13:37] <ogra_> i guess the timer trigger is what you look for
[13:37] <cedian_linux> didn't read that part ogra_ but I use arm on my phone
[13:38] <ogra_> (wild guess though)
[13:39] <ogra_> mzanetti, hah ...
[13:39] <ogra_> echo 1 >/sys/class/leds/mx-led/blink
[13:39] <ogra_> and it blinks :)
[13:39] <mzanetti> ogra_, my arale's battery is dead atm. Can we also change the color?
[13:39] <ogra_> (echo 0 obviously stops it)
[13:39] <ogra_> not sure
[13:39] <ogra_> i think only the brightness
[13:42] <cedian_linux> Ogra_ terminal will be updated
[13:42] <cedian_linux> right now
[13:42] <jdstrand> Sleep_Walker: re 'apparmor is still alive'> yes very much so and healthier than ever. it is upstream, has a (small but) dedicated community, is in many distros, etc
[13:43] <popey> jdstrand: what shall we do about the offline maps app pending in the store? The developer asked for manual review.
[13:43] <ogra_> hah
[13:43] <ogra_> popey, beats me
[13:44] <jdstrand> Sleep_Walker: it's been healthy for years, though we can always use help :)
[13:44] <ogra_> jdstrand, i assume read_path wasnt intended for stoe apps (until we have a proper Sd card framework)
[13:44] <jdstrand> popey: we need someone authoritiative to respond to the list on what the plan is for app access on the sd card
[13:44] <cedian_linux> crap errors again
[13:44] <popey> I thought that might be you jdstrand :)
[13:44] <popey> s/thought/hoped/
[13:45] <jdstrand> no. I am not driving the implementation. we need an architect
[13:45] <popey> jdstrand: who might that be?
[13:45] <jdstrand> I'm neither driving the implementation nor the design
[13:45] <jdstrand> I CC'd tvoss in my first response
[13:45] <ogra_> do we actually have architects left in the phone area ?
[13:45] <jdstrand> yes, tvoss is the architect for ubuntu personal
[13:45]  * ogra_ thought they moved all to snappy too)
[13:46] <ogra_> ah
[13:46] <tvoss> jdstrand, yup, I will have a look tomorrow the latest, sorry for the delay
[13:46] <jdstrand> and personal will use snappy of course, so it is all related
[13:46] <ogra_> indeed
[13:46] <jdstrand> tvoss: no worries at all :)
[13:46] <jdstrand> things are quite hectic I know
[13:46] <ogra_> well, there are discussions atarting all over G+ currently
[13:47] <ogra_> because the app was announced
[13:47] <ogra_> *starting
[13:47] <jdstrand> that is unfortunate
[13:47] <ogra_> yeah
[13:47] <jdstrand> announcing the app before it is available. is that some sort of ploy to apply pressure?
[13:47] <popey> i tested the app - it's well done.
[13:47] <ogra_> "it is only the reviwers that hold it back now"
[13:47] <popey> if you live in belgium
[13:47] <ogra_> (quote from a post)
[13:48] <jdstrand> it isn't only the reviewers
[13:48] <ogra_> indeed
[13:48] <jdstrand> man, how can I have been more clear
[13:48] <ogra_> we dont have an SD impolementation yet
[13:48] <jdstrand> I did it in the review, in private email and on the public mailing list
[13:48] <ogra_> "but hey, i used read_path like the other apps"
[13:48] <Sleep_Walker> jdstrand: well, I'm working as support guy in the original company where apparmor was developed so that is where my opinion is comming from :)
[13:48] <ogra_> so it must work, right ? :P
[13:48] <jdstrand> I've probably literally spent a whole day just responding to this guy
[13:49] <jdstrand> Sleep_Walker: original as in immunix?
[13:49] <Sleep_Walker> SUSE
[13:49] <jdstrand> Sleep_Walker: you might want to hop in #apparmor on oftc and participate
[13:49] <jdstrand> suse is still quite involved
[13:50] <jdstrand> and well represented
[13:50] <jdstrand> "but hey, i used read_path like the other apps" - read_path isn't for other apps. it is a workaround for core apps
[13:51] <ogra_> jdstrand, thats what i told him
[13:51] <jdstrand> and using it doesn't address the multiuser bits at all
[13:51] <ogra_> not sure i got through though
[13:51] <jdstrand> bah. anyway, sounds like the discussion is going to pick up again
[13:51] <jdstrand> ogra_: at this point I'm doubting you can
[13:51] <ogra_> yeah
[13:58] <jdstrand> dholbach, ogra_, dpm: this is sounding like a PR issue. I'm stuck holding the line because there is no process for manual reviews and they are fairly meaningless anyway because there is no build from source upload functionality. plus he is trying to rush us to accept something rather than helping us drive to a design (once the design is understood, then maybe we could allow an exception, but at this point, the exception might change, etc)
[13:58] <jdstrand> dholbach, ogra_, dpm: which would affect the users
[13:58] <cedian_linux> apparmor is from immunix
[13:59] <cedian_linux> well originally
[13:59] <ogra_> jdstrand, yeah ... not good ...
[13:59] <mandel> dobey, you need to set the google log env vars
[13:59] <ogra_> jdstrand, we should probably disable manual reviews altogether
[14:00] <jdstrand> cedian_linux: yes, then Novell acquired them. http://wiki.apparmor.net/index.php/AppArmor_History
[14:00] <cedian_linux> some stuff breaks in kernels and jdstrand I read that ;)
[14:01] <dholbach> jdstrand, is this about an app which requires certain security privileges we can't grant easily?
[14:01] <popey> dholbach: it wants r/w on the sd card
[14:01] <popey> because it wants to download giant map files
[14:01] <cedian_linux> What map files?
[14:02] <ogra_> navigation maps
[14:02] <popey> we're talking about a mapping app
[14:02] <popey> offline
[14:02] <jdstrand> ogra_: well, we need them for the exceptions that we have but I think someone should define what they mean, define a process/policy around it, then link to it near the button to request it, then have people in charge of doing them. right now it is much too ad hoc
[14:02] <cedian_linux> and is it hard to port an android app to Ubuntu touch?
[14:02] <dobey> mandel: and those are? i don't know anything about google log. i guess this would make u-d-m the first project i've run into that uses it :)
[14:02] <popey> depends on the app cedian_linux
[14:02] <ogra_> dholbach, we  dont havve any proper handling for SD card access for third party apps yet ...
[14:02] <popey> (and the developer) :)
[14:02] <dholbach> popey, jdstrand: I guess we could update the reviewers tools to tell them that they can't have it right now because of reasons x, y and z and point them to where the discussion is happening(?)
[14:03] <jdstrand> dholbach: so, the developer knows the story
[14:03] <ogra_> dholbach, scattered across G+ and some of it is on the ML
[14:03] <ogra_> jdstrand, thats what you think :P
[14:03] <dholbach> ogra_, well, we could file a bug and discuss it there
[14:03] <jdstrand> dholbach: via reviews, then private email the public thread
[14:03] <mandel> dobey, no problem => https://google-glog.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/glog.html
[14:03] <mandel> dobey, look at setting flags
[14:04] <dholbach> jdstrand, yes - I think I recall having looked at the review page
[14:04] <popey> dholbach: bug would be good
[14:04] <jdstrand> I just mean adding a link in the review tools for this guy doesn't make sense-- he is who started the discussion on the list (after I advised him to do so)
[14:04] <ogra_> popey, btw, you said teh app is sane, how sane is that app on devices without SD card
[14:04] <ogra_> popey, does it blindly download the maps to /media/SD/* ?
[14:04] <dholbach> I just thought that it might help others who are blocked by this - but you are right, I'm not sure how many run into this
[14:04] <popey> it makes a maps folder i think
[14:04] <ogra_> (this is stuff the SD framework was supposed to solve)
[14:05] <dobey> mandel: oh, so all log messages are already being logged? it doesn't mention anything about a debug log level there
[14:06] <jdstrand> dholbach: if you file a bug with the review tools for what you want to help this with other developers, I'm happy to add it. I think however that we don't know what that is just yet because the conversation has only partly happened
[14:06] <dholbach> right
[14:06] <cedian_linux> thanks popey
[14:07] <dholbach> and maybe file a more general bug to implement the sd card story?
[14:07] <cedian_linux> I got some issues with the kernel :(
[14:07] <ogra_> jdstrand, dholbach, i think as a start the app should be rejected with a proper comment for now
[14:07] <ogra_> so he doesnt keep hoping for a positive review
[14:07] <ogra_> (and doesnt go on spreading the word)
[14:08] <mandel> dobey, something like => export GLOG_minloglevel=1 export GLOG_logtostderr=1
[14:09] <jdstrand> dpm, ogra_, dholbach: fyi, this was my response on the public list if you haven't seen it: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-phone/msg13033.html
[14:09] <mandel> dobey, look at the flags, there is a minlog level there and send to stderr
[14:09] <jdstrand> ogra_: I think that person should not be me. so far I have been the only person blocking him and I'm afraid if I act in that manner it will only fan the flames
[14:10] <cedian_linux> cc not found :(
[14:10] <ogra_> yes, it needs to be someone who wasnt involved before
[14:10] <ogra_> beuno, :)
[14:11] <dobey> mandel: right, but it says the default min log level is 0 which is INFO, which is already in the log file
[14:11] <beuno> ogra_, what what?  this is the guy who wants to get his app through?
[14:11] <mandel> dobey, correct, what is the issue that you have?
[14:11] <dobey> mandel: does that mean there are no lower level debugging messages in u-d-m then?
[14:12] <mandel> dobey, not lower than that, but I ofcourse add a vlog with a 10 for example for very verbose ones
[14:12] <dobey> mandel: i'm seeing u-d-m starting up, not downloading anything, and then just tiimng out. i want to figure out why it's not downloading anything
[14:12] <mandel> dobey, is the download being created?
[14:12] <dobey> afaik
[14:12] <jdstrand> beuno: yes, apparently now he is launching a google+ campaign to get the reviewers to yield
[14:12] <ogra_> beuno, yes, he wants to use the SD but we havent an Sd framework for third party apps yet ... so he copied the code from other apps beliving that will get him through ... we need a rejecttion with proper explanation that this isnt possible til an SD framework exists for store apps
[14:12] <mandel> dobey, you can start udb with -disable-timeout o that it does not diw
[14:12] <mandel> die*
[14:12] <ogra_> jdstrand, i'm not sure he launched it ... but it speards and he discusses in comments
[14:12] <jdstrand> beuno: also, see discussion here: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-phone/msg13033.html
[14:13] <mandel> dobey, then use dfeet to or anything else to interact with it and check if the download obj is present etc
[14:13] <jdstrand> ogra_: I'm not sure how that could be true. how would anyone know of the difficulties and start the discussion? regardless, things are not going well which is why I wanting the community people to step in
[14:14] <jdstrand> s/I/I am/
[14:14] <ogra_> jdstrand, i think he just made a youtube video of it ,., and someone else chared it on G+
[14:14] <ogra_> *shared
[14:14] <jdstrand> beuno: you might also want to read backscroll at least 16 minutes
[14:15] <beuno> right
[14:15] <beuno> so I have 2 thoughts on this:
[14:16] <dobey> mandel: ugh, the binary really shouldn't be in /usr/bin/ :)
[14:16] <beuno> 1) Maybe we just let it through and be less heavy-handed until we have what is needed in place
[14:16] <ogra_> beuno, ugh, no
[14:16] <beuno> 2) I SHALL NOT YIELD
[14:16] <ogra_> then we will have 100 apps doing the same in no time
[14:17] <beuno> so if you guys feel strongly against it, fine, I'll reply
[14:17] <ogra_> (and someone who documents how to do it in a blog etc)
[14:17] <jdstrand> beuno: it isn't about '2'
[14:17] <beuno> I would default to be a bit flexible here and there
[14:17] <ogra_> it is actually 3) we are not ready yet
[14:17] <jdstrand> beuno: I'm willing to do '1' provided someone give direction on it
[14:17] <jdstrand> because, yes, what ogra_ said
[14:18] <ogra_> i doubt "a bit of direction" will help here
[14:18] <dobey> mandel: hrmm. and running it with --logstderr=1 --disable-timeout, doesn't seem to actually work :(
[14:18] <ogra_> people will spread the word
[14:18] <ogra_> no matter if we give *him* direction
[14:18] <jdstrand> ogra_: you misunderstand
[14:18] <jdstrand> I need the direction
[14:18] <ogra_> oh, ok
[14:19] <jdstrand> if I know what we are moving toward, I can better provide workaround policy
[14:19] <ogra_> right
[14:19] <ogra_> well, for the current state, i would reject the app
[14:19]  * davmor2 let loose the balrog
[14:20] <ogra_> but hey, i'm a german asshole :) you guys are probably less hard :)
[14:20] <jdstrand> but right now, I don't know what to suggest. I mean, I suggested something, but don't know if it is what we should be doing cause I don't know what the plans are for the sd card
[14:20] <didrocks> I don't think it would be wise to reject the app without any ETA on our side when we would support the feature
[14:20] <didrocks> that will just create some flames IMHO
[14:20] <beuno> right
[14:20] <ogra_> didrocks, well, 6mounts to 1year
[14:20] <ogra_> *months
[14:20]  * ogra_ doesnt want to mount anything 6 times :P 
[14:21] <dobey> mandel: how can i tell if the download is being created or not, if there's nothing in the logs about it?
[14:21] <ogra_> thats loose enough ... and perhaps realistic
[14:21] <didrocks> but still a long way ahead for someone who prepared an app (and can be demotivating)
[14:21] <ogra_> yes
[14:21] <ogra_> he can store the maps in the homedir
[14:21] <jdstrand> tbh, I'm really curious how the sd card framework is supposed to work, cause, well, fat filesystems
[14:21] <ogra_> it is just limited
[14:22] <didrocks> I understand why you don't want to get it through, but beuno seemed to be to have the most reasonable suggestion
[14:22] <ogra_> jdstrand, +1
[14:22] <didrocks> jdstrand: yeah, I always wondered how google handled it
[14:22] <ogra_> jdstrand, loop mounted images per app ;)
[14:22] <jdstrand> didrocks: google threw their hands in the air
[14:22] <didrocks> like "you have access to everything"?
[14:22] <didrocks> so it's none or all?
[14:22] <jdstrand> didrocks: they treat the sd card as shared storage and are now trying to extricate themselves from that
[14:23] <ogra_> i think  they moved away from vfat
[14:23] <davmor2> jdstrand: like they just don't care?
[14:23] <abeato> davmor2, have you hit bug #1347855 after latest nuntium landing?
[14:23] <didrocks> ok, so shared storage ;)
[14:23] <jdstrand> they care--  that is why they are moving away from it
[14:23] <jdstrand> but android wasn't designed with security in mind to begin with
[14:23] <davmor2> abeato: no pmcgowan already ask and I hope updated the bug
[14:23] <davmor2> abeato: no repeats over the weekend
[14:23] <jdstrand> so they implemented something that would work for developers and now are trying to fix
[14:24] <jdstrand> it
[14:24] <abeato> davmor2, cool, I will mark it as released then
[14:24] <sergiusens> some apps can't install to the sdcard for this very reason
[14:24] <didrocks> sergiusens: those using some local db to store private data, I guess?
[14:24] <didrocks> (as it's a special app perm)
[14:24] <jdstrand> but that is a side point. we've said apps should not be able to interfere with other app's data. period
[14:25] <jdstrand> so the shared storage is out. but how to enforce that with fat filesystems? that is an excellent question for the sd card framework
[14:25] <beuno> jdstrand, so, I think I don't really know how to help here
[14:25] <beuno> I think you're saying you're happy to be flexible
[14:26] <beuno> but
[14:26] <davmor2> jdstrand: more a play on cameo word up! :) from me :)
[14:26] <beuno> we need a plan forward
[14:26] <jdstrand> beuno: me either, but that wasn't why you were brought in
[14:26] <jdstrand> beuno: the farther back backscroll is tvoss said he'd respond to the mailing list. which is good-- the discussions will move forward
[14:27] <jdstrand> beuno: you were brought in because it was suggested that the app be rejected. I stated I did not want to be the one doing it cause thus far I have been the only person blocking it (which is something I'm not entirely happy about-- we need processes and clear documentation on what manual reviews mean)
[14:28]  * beuno nods
[14:28] <jdstrand> beuno: so then it was thought you should reject it. personally, I don't hink it should be rejected. I think we need to wait for the discussions to recommence and then we can understand the appropriate in the mean time policy", if any
[14:28] <jdstrand> s/in/"in/
[14:29] <ogra_> jdstrand, well, it is pretty clear that it will not be accepted in the current state it is in
[14:29] <jdstrand> davmor2: oh haha I totally missed that
[14:29] <jdstrand> ogra_: maybe?
[14:29] <ogra_> (and i really dont want a /media/Maps folder created on my arale btw)
[14:30] <ogra_> (where i dont even have an SD)
[14:30] <jdstrand> it does seem wrong to me too
[14:30] <jdstrand> plus, if we allow that folder, how is the app supposed to migrate away from it? how are users supposed to deal with it
[14:30] <ogra_> right
[14:30] <jdstrand> I much rather be very careful here and understand what we are going to
[14:31] <ogra_> and how do we prevent the next 99 apps that will copy that behavior "because you let this one in, why cant mine too ?"
[14:31] <jdstrand> which, incidentally, is us caring about the users of the app
[14:31] <jdstrand> ogra_: right
[14:31] <jdstrand> which we are already getting for the gallery btw
[14:31] <ogra_> this is why i would reject it with a "we are working on it, til then please find another solution"
[14:32] <jdstrand> yeah, I tried that
[14:32] <beuno> ogra_, we prevent it because they get stuck for manual review each time
[14:32] <jdstrand> :)
[14:33] <jdstrand> then it went to personal email because he insisted the bq phone had too little internal storage, so then I suggested he bring it up on the list, then I would respond CC'ing and To'ing the correct people with all the gory details, and here we are
[14:33]  * ogra_ thinnks we have PR disaster enough with the deb apps that dont get reviewed already 
[14:33] <jdstrand> so I think we need to wait a little bit. but the community team needs to manage the potentially bad PR in the meantime
[14:35] <beuno> jdstrand, ogra_, let me chew on this for a bit, on calls
[14:35] <ogra_> thanks
[14:35] <beuno> maybe we should stick to our guns, apologise and hope people kick off creativity instead of rants
[14:35] <jdstrand> beuno: I feel quite strongly that someone needs to define the processes around manual reviews. I don't think it is something that a handful of individuals do in their spare time. Yes, I agree we shouldn't have them, but clearly we can't get rid of all of them. we need to manage expectations, know who to consult, have clear escalation points, have docs developers can read to understand, etc
[14:36] <beuno> jdstrand, agreed, I'll take that on
[14:36] <mandel> dobey, yes, in the logs it does state that downlod is created and registered to a dbus path
[14:36] <jdstrand> beuno: cool, thanks-- I'm happy to help review, etc
[14:36] <mandel> dobey, can you paste the logs and I'll take a quick look
[15:09] <dobey> mandel: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/11719895/
[15:10] <dobey> mandel: so looks like it's being started via dbus, but no download is being created for some reason?
[15:11] <mandel> dobey, looking
[15:15] <mandel> dobey, weird, it seems to not create the download after it gets the caller and then checks with apparmor to check your creds, how are you calling udm, is a confined app, a scope. have you checked you have the correct rights to call udm?
[15:15] <mandel> dobey, If you do not have them and I'm not returning and error, it is a bug of udm for sure, I should do return a dbus error of some kind
[15:16] <dobey> mandel: this is from unity-scope-click, which is unconfined
[15:16] <mandel> dobey, and calling the user session dbus, correct?
[15:17] <dobey> mandel: yes; i think it might be an issue in the scope now though, after more debugging. it seems this only happens when purchasing an app
[15:18] <dobey> mandel: so i guess the log might just be u-d-m being activated when we try to find an existing download for the app
[15:18] <mandel> dobey, neverthless.. I think there is something fishy in udm
[15:18] <mandel> dobey, let me know, neverthless I'm going to add verbose logging to udm so that we can set the verbosity to 10 and see more stuff
[15:18] <dobey> mandel: i'll have to debug more after my lunch to figure out what's going on exactly
[15:19] <mandel> dobey, ack
[15:19] <dobey> mandel: if you want a more verbose log level that isn't enabled by default, you will need to make it "-1" or something, i think
[15:19] <dobey> mandel: at least, according to those google log docs
[15:20] <dobey> mandel: why are you using google log anyway? it seems overly complicated :)
[15:20] <mandel> dobey, IShow all VLOG(m) messages for m less or equal the value of this flag.  The way I understand it, less or equal would be that if the default is 0, 10 will not be seen
[15:20] <mandel> dobey, we use it in lots of places already, so I grabbed it
[15:21] <dobey> mandel: then you are doing it backwards
[15:21] <mandel> dobey, excuse me, what do you mean?
[15:23] <dobey> mandel: according to those glog docs, only things higher than X should be shown for --minloglevel=X
[15:23] <mandel> dobey, VLOG works differently and I'm not using it atm
[15:24] <dobey> mandel: oh, i see now. you're talking about verbosity not log level
[15:24] <dobey> ugh, glob is too complex :)
[15:24] <mandel> dobey, yep :)
[15:26] <dobey> i should productize my logger.h or whatever i called it, and convince you and everyone else to use it
[15:48] <ogra_> mzanetti, hmm, so if i only have one app open and my phone is in landscape ... when i then swipe from the right there is no way to get back to my app from the scopes (it switches to scopes with the first swipe and subsequent swipes only get me the scopes manager)
[15:48] <ogra_> is that a known bug already ?
[15:48]  * ogra_ thinks not rotating the scopes is a mistake ... 
[15:55] <ogra_> kgunn, ^^^ do you know if it will stay that way?
[15:56] <kgunn> ogra_: i kinda feel like you do
[15:56] <ogra_> (feels very broken ... even with more than one app open and you accidentially land in the scopes)
[15:56] <kgunn> it was a design call
[15:56] <ogra_> (just had that twice in the last 10m,in)
[15:56] <kgunn> but we can open a bug to see if they'll consider
[15:57] <ogra_> we just need a sprint and get olga really really drunk to sign it off on paper ;)
[15:57] <ogra_> never got these sprints when you really need them :/
[15:57] <kgunn> :) or maybe easier, just have her try a device with a modified desktop file for dash
[15:58] <ogra_> yeah, we should steal all these iphones from them :=)
[15:59] <kgunn> ogra_: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-ux/+bug/1465331
[16:02] <ogra_> kgunn, commented :)
[16:06] <mzanetti> ogra_, "no way" is wrong... the edge gestures are bound to the panel location basically.
[16:06] <mzanetti> I do agree this is a bit odd
[16:06] <ogra_> my mom wouldnt understand it
[16:06] <mzanetti> not so sure...
[16:07] <ogra_> she would then call my by landline telling me the phone is broken
[16:07] <mzanetti> your mom would probably rotate the phone
[16:07] <ogra_> because she cant get out of that thing that expnaded
[16:07] <ogra_> you dont know my mom ;)
[16:07] <mzanetti> I know mine...
[16:07] <ogra_> but yours is a rocket scientist !
[16:08] <mzanetti> yeah, exactly
[16:08] <ogra_> :)
[16:08] <mzanetti> anyhow... if you switch to the dash, the painted orientation is changed
[16:08] <mzanetti> so not rotating the edge gestures with it would be wrong IMO
[16:08] <ogra_> well, if you only have one app open you can flick quickl between dash and the app in portatrait
[16:09] <ogra_> you cant do that at all in landscape
[16:09] <mzanetti> no... if you switch to an app that is locked to portrait, you need to interact with the phone in portrait
[16:09] <ogra_> i am opening a webapp in landscape ...
[16:09] <ogra_> then i flick back to the dash
[16:10] <ogra_> when i now want to flick back to the app i cant
[16:10] <mzanetti> well, you can, from another edge tho
[16:10] <ogra_> at least not with the same gesture i could use to get where i am or i can use in portatrait
[16:11]  * ogra_ wonders what makes portrait always come out typoed like that 
[16:11] <mzanetti> before, this was an issue with the browser for example... without shellrotation, you can't use the browser's bottom edge in landscape
[16:11] <mzanetti> you can do that now
[16:11] <JanC> it's especially annoying when you accidentally flick to the dash
[16:11] <ogra_> mzanetti, right
[16:11] <ogra_> mzanetti, but imho either the gestures should stick to the rotation ... or even better, simply make the dash rotate too
[16:11] <ogra_> JanC, thats what i was meanin
[16:11] <ogra_> g
[16:12] <ogra_> JanC, comment in bug 1465331 ;)
[16:12] <mzanetti> ogra_, yes, making the dash rotate would be a good thing IMO. Doesn't solve the problem when you're switching to another app that's locked to portrait tho
[16:12] <mzanetti> or when in portrait mode, and switching to an app that's locked to landscape
[16:13] <ogra_> can we now lock apps to a certain rotation ?
[16:13] <mzanetti> yes
[16:13] <ogra_> last time i tried it only blocked the rotating itself
[16:13] <mzanetti> yep, that's fixed too now
[16:13] <ogra_> but didnt fix any orienmtation
[16:13] <ogra_> ah
[16:13] <mzanetti> sadly, right now only in the .desktop file
[16:13] <mzanetti> but there's a plan to make an API and allow that dynamically
[16:22] <mariogrip> Can i have a remote cdimage-device instead of local? stgraber
[16:22] <mariogrip> (system-image server)
[16:23] <ahoneybun> Great to see your work on the OPO titles
[16:23] <ahoneybun> mariogrip:
[16:24] <ahoneybun> mhall119: and I talked about your port work at SELF
[16:29] <mariogrip> ahoneybun: Awesome :D
[16:31] <studio_> hi
[16:32] <ahoneybun> mariogrip: can't wait to try it once we have working radio lol
[16:33] <studio_> is there a "deadline" when x applications will work on mir, i mean the xmir?
[16:33] <popey> studio_: no
[16:33] <studio_> a "nearly" deadline?
[16:34] <popey> not that I know of
[16:34] <popey> ask kgunn :)
[16:34] <studio_> hmm :(
[16:34] <studio_> i thought xmir is a target from mir?
[16:34] <kgunn> studio_: well...what do you mean exactly?
[16:34] <kgunn> bregma: ^
[16:35] <studio_> kgunn, i mean to run all the x apps, that i know from ubuntu, to run on the touch device
[16:35] <mariogrip> ahoneybun: yeah, I think lots of ppl are waiting for radio :) but i had a small break to work on OTA, Multirom and Apparmor3 after requests
[16:36]  * ahoneybun waves at kgunn 
[16:36] <kgunn> studio_: got it , not just a specific one...but all, so that'll be done through an lxc
[16:36] <studio_> kgunn, for exp. lmms
[16:36] <ahoneybun> mariogrip: when I get some more money I'll try to shoot some to you for the work
[16:36] <kgunn> studio_: there's confinement issues with x apps in a generic sense...
[16:38] <kgunn> schedule wise i'd say we're looking around the fall of this year
[16:38] <studio_> i thought xmir will handle all that x apps?
[16:39] <studio_> ok
[16:39] <studio_> "this year" sounds good
[16:39] <kgunn> studio_: well, it'll handling the rendering/input....but xmir doesn't wrap them for click/snap etc and give them security policies
[16:40] <kgunn> so lxc is a way to get "all the xapps" without wrapping all of them
[16:40] <mariogrip> ahoneybun: Awww, thanks i really appreciate it :D
[16:41] <ahoneybun> And I really appreciate the work
[16:41] <mariogrip> :D
[16:42] <popey> kgunn: one big lxc, or lots of them, one per app?
[16:42] <jdstrand> kgunn: I missed context here. are you saying that as a means to get X apps there will be an lxc container for X apps that talk to a single xmir that runs alongside other apps?
[16:43] <jdstrand> so, I can run thunderbird and rhythmbox in this lxc and they will be using the same xmir?
[16:44] <jdstrand> and what is in the container is what comes from the ubuntu archive? (and thus, vetted using normal archive practices)?
[16:44] <jdstrand> tyhicks: you may want to see this ^
[16:45] <Walex> popey: the Click packaging system is described online in some introduction
[16:45] <popey> Walex: i know about click packaging :)
[16:48] <egon1> hi
[16:48] <Walex> jdstrand: my understanding is that policies regarding X apps and Mir and XMir are not quite fully defined. Right now my impression is that X apps are just not in scope. Eventually there will be "converged" phones where all these issues have been resolved. Interesting times at Canonical :-).
[16:48] <studio_> kgunn, btw. "security policies", what about the sd card and ext4 for the small memory in the bq e4.5, will ut able in the next future to handle that?
[16:48] <egon1> i have a aquaris 4,5 ubuntu... and want to use whatsapp... it is possible?
[16:50] <popey> egon1: there's no whatsapp yet
[16:50] <egon1> and a trick exists?
[16:51] <popey> a trick?
[16:51] <jdstrand> Walex: right, I might have read too much into kgunn's comments but it was sounding like things were getting defined, and I wanted to understand them :)
[16:51] <Walex> jdstrand: things I think are *getting* defined. :-)
[16:51] <bregma> jdstrand, there will not be a common XMir shared between the container applications
[16:53] <bregma> it will be more like each contained application has its own personal X server
[16:53] <dobey> oh my, again
[16:54] <Walex> jdstrand: what <bregma> says does not surprise me because the X protocol has some difficulty partitioning input events by application... :-)
[16:54] <Walex> I wonder sometimes what has happened to the "secure X" protocol
[16:54] <dobey> egon1: the trick is to convince whatsapp that ubuntu is a platform they should support. beyond that, there is no workaround to using whatsapp. there are alternatives you can use though, like telegram
[16:54] <jdstrand> indeed. I'm quite familiar with that
[16:55] <jdstrand> (not the secure X bit, but the isolation)
[16:55] <jdstrand> bregma: ok, that's cool, but there will be a common lxc container?
[16:55] <egon1> :)
[16:56] <Walex> jdstrand: you could open a terminal on your bq phone and have a look with multiple apps running :-)
[16:56] <Walex> for the current state of things at least...
[16:56] <bregma> jdstrand, yes
[16:57] <Walex> bregma: ????????? common among what?
[16:57] <jdstrand> bregma: ok. is there a design doc? I'm curious how the container is going to be maintained
[16:58] <jdstrand> cause it sounds like we may be reintroducing apt on converged devices
[16:58] <bregma> jdstrand, that is still under investigation, but since it's there for the purposes of supporting DEBs, it is likely to be something along the lines of "apt-get upgrade" somewhere
[16:58] <bregma> on the other hand, if a snappy app is shipping an XMir, the answer is simpler
[16:59] <jdstrand> bregma: we expect apps to ship their own xmir? won't the mir framework provide it for them?
[16:59] <studio_> again, will ut handle in the near future sd cards, formated in ext4, handle for additional memory/space ?
[16:59] <bregma> jdstrand, think of the container as a single app that provides an old-fasioned experience, like driving a classic car
[17:00] <Walex> bregma: so one container for all "traditional" apps, and one per each Click "confined" app, I guess.
[17:00] <jdstrand> studio_: there is a thread on that on ubuntu-phone and it was discussed earlier today in this channel. the conversation should be picking up on the mailing list again this week
[17:00] <bregma> Walex, clicks don't need to be in a container
[17:01] <jdstrand> bregma: that doesn't sound so simple :)
[17:01] <bregma> jdstrand, thinking of it that way is simple, it doesn;t mean the implementation is simple
[17:01] <Walex> bregma: and how do you enforce permissions then if a Click app in not in a container?
[17:01] <studio_> jdstrand, ok, nice to hear, it is in discussion ...
[17:01] <jdstrand> bregma: if this is getting written down somewhere, can you share the doc with me and tyhicks?
[17:01] <popey> Walex: apparmor
[17:01] <popey> Walex: same way we already do
[17:02] <bregma> jdstrand, I'll try to gather the docs together for you
[17:03] <jdstrand> Walex: this container approach sounds like a bridging technology. the best developer experience is going to be to support mir because then you can update whenever you want cause mir solves the X issue and apps are individually confined
[17:03] <bregma> jdstrand, we're currently stumbling on some security-related issues anyway and need some input
[17:03] <jdstrand> Walex: the container is a way to get stuff going on converged for existing apps in the archive
[17:03] <Walex> popey: uhm. that's a bit surprising. Then why use Click at all?
[17:04] <popey> click apps are confined with apparmor, that's been the case on phone ~forever.
[17:04] <bregma> the container approach will never give a fully satisfactory fully-integrated experience
[17:04] <bregma> exception maybe the most trivial of cases
[17:04] <jdstrand> yeah. there are very interesting questions surrounding filesystem access, etc
[17:05] <jdstrand> anyway, that is precisely why I asked for us to get involved :)
[17:05] <jdstrand> we don't have to solve it here
[17:05] <Walex> https://penguindroppings.wordpress.com/2015/01/30/snappy-app-trust-model/ by some "jdstrand"#
[17:05] <jdstrand> Walex: that would be me
[17:05] <Walex> what a coincidence :-)
[17:05] <studio_> one last question for today, what about "DisplayLink" an ut? i have seen, that displaylink is supporting drivers for their devices on (arm) based devices. will they in the near future also work on ubuntu (touch)?
[17:05] <jdstrand> yes, small world :)
[17:08] <jdstrand> studio_: fyi, this was the mailing list discussion I was referring to earlier: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-phone/msg13033.html
[17:09] <popey> studio_: DisplayLink support isn't great in Linux.
[17:09] <Walex> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Specifications/SnappyConfinement
[17:11] <studio_> jdstrand, thanks for the url. popey, i thought this, ASIN: B005RUSWHQ (amazon) is working under ubuntu, isn'tit?
[17:11] <popey> i know of no phones with a USB A port like that :)
[17:12] <studio_> is it depending from a "phone"?
[17:12] <popey> i was joking
[17:15] <Walex> OK guys I think I will have a look at recent Touch/Snappy docs, blog posts, mailing list stuff because it seems interesting and more fluid than I thought. I had though that AppArmor's role was to help confine LXC containers, instead of being an alternative, for example.
[17:16] <jdstrand> Walex: fyi, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Specifications/ApplicationConfinement#Questions
[17:16] <Walex> I think you have got quite a challenge, but getting there.
[17:18]  * ogra_ wouldnt think of it as an alternative ... 
[17:18] <jdstrand> Walex: apparmor is used to confine lxc containers. it is used to confine processes in the distro. it is used to confine apps (along with secure designs like mir) to confine apps on touch. it is used with a few container techniques in snappy
[17:19] <jdstrand> Walex: app containers are great for certain things. if that tool works, use them (eg docker). however our requirements were different that simple app containers. that ApplicaionIsolation document gives a lot of detail on why we are doing what we are doing
[17:19] <Walex> jdstrand: you are listing a (small) number of somewhat different mixes of various techs. That was what I think has been confusing me.
[17:20] <jdstrand> SnappyConfinement iterates on that
[17:20] <Walex> jdstrand: I have read a bit of your latest URL and seems sensible to me.
[17:20] <studio_> popey, if canoncial can spend you this "www.amazon.co.uk/Accell-J130B-001B-UltraVideo-DVI-I-Adapter/dp/B005RUSWHQ" for testing, can you please test it?
[17:21] <jdstrand> Walex: right. the point I was making is that apparmor isn't an alternative to lxc containers for confinement. that presumes that lxc containers meets all the requirements and we chose something different to meet the requirements
[17:21] <Walex> studio_: the Ubuntu Edge was supposed to have a mikcro-HDMI connector.
[17:21] <ogra_> studio_, weird, i thought anpok_ explained to you that these devices wont work due to the drm driver last time
[17:21] <ogra_> (or rather the missing drm driver)
[17:22] <Walex> jdstrand: I understand that now. I am not find of containers... I had imagined from various bits and pieces that Touch was more like Snappy or even the SystemD/BTRFS/Builder approach.
[17:22] <popey> oh yes
[17:22] <ogra_> why would canonical have any interest in testing them if we already know they cant work
[17:22] <studio_> Walex, the is no Ubuntu Edge, just bq E5 and E4.5, without MHL and Meizu MX4 with MHL
[17:23] <popey> 20:42 < anpok_> tathhu: hmm no.. it mostly means that you have another drm device not capable of rendering.. but capable of page flips/plane configuration.. so you need to find an efficient way to get the content from the android native buffer there
[17:23] <ogra_> and it is likely that neither will get a convergence mode
[17:23] <popey> yeah
[17:23] <ogra_> the converged phone will actually have properly selected HW that will support external displays out of the box ...
[17:23] <popey> yeah, that's step 1 :D
[17:24] <jdstrand> Walex: ah! ok, yes then I see why you might be confused
[17:24] <ogra_> and i doubt there is any other focus on supporting convergence on any other devices for this iteration (later perhaps ... )
[17:24] <jdstrand> Walex: we've not had too many people look at snappy first then touch :)
[17:24] <ogra_> which kind of flipped around recently :)
[17:25] <ogra_> (today it is snappy first)
[17:25] <jdstrand> Walex: so, ApplicationConfinement was for touch. touch came first. we learned a lot from that and are developing snappy. snappy for ubuntu core exists today. snappy for ubuntu personal is the future of touch/converged
[17:25] <studio_> popey an orga, does that mean, your re-postings, that the mx4 ubuntu-edition do not support mhl?
[17:25] <jdstrand> Walex: so everything in the touch world is moving to snappy, but it isn't there yet, so there are some differences
[17:25] <Walex> jdstrand: well maybe you need some communication about that because it is easy to think Touch is built on Snappy... While I now seem to understand they sort of parallel for now.
[17:26] <ogra_> studio_, no, it means that nobody will look into doing anything with MHL on that device
[17:26] <ogra_> focus for convergence will be on the convergence phone
[17:26] <studio_> *lol*
[17:26] <jdstrand> Walex: very soon touch will be on snappy-- people are actively working on it as we speak
[17:26] <jdstrand> fyi
[17:26] <Walex> ahhhhhhh.....
[17:26] <ogra_> and the few developer resources we have will work on making this work flawless
[17:26] <ogra_> instead of looking into phones that are clearly only phones for now ...
[17:27] <ogra_> as i said, they might get supported at a later poiint but surely not before 16.04 release
[17:27] <jdstrand> Walex: well, 'very' is perhaps strong. there is a lot to do, but there is a big focus with deliverables for 15.10 and then more for 16.04. I don't have all the details or the timelines, but we want everything to be on snappy as soon as possible
[17:28] <studio_> ogra_, what is the different between a "phone", "smart-phone", "PDA" and an "handheld pc"?
[17:28] <ogra_> Walex, yeah, the gors of developers moved from phone to snappy for this ...
[17:28] <ogra_> *gros
[17:28] <Walex> studio_: exactly! The Edge was designed as a high end converged phone with the ability to drive an external display, but it does not exist yet. The bq ones haven't been designed to be converged phones.
[17:29] <ogra_> studio_, the installed stuff we put on their images
[17:29] <ogra_> the phones will stay phones for a while ... convergence focus will be on the converged device that will eb developed by bq
[17:30] <studio_> ogra_, houch, maybe i missed the point, thanks that you pointed to "we put ..."
[17:30] <ogra_> also i highly doubt you can make MHL work easily with the mx4 ... the PVR driver has its issues (like al PVR drivers always had)
[17:31] <Walex> BTW I am quite happy with the bq 4.5 it is very good value as a midrange phone. Ubuntu Touch 14.10 has some big functionality missing but it is quite usable and I quite like the swipes, excellent idea.
[17:31] <ogra_> (it is too bad that such beautiful hardware has such bad drivers ... (we had this prob with all TI hardware and it didint really change over the last 5-6 years)
[17:32] <ogra_> functionallity will grow as people push apps to the store
[17:32] <popey> yeah, it's already surprised me what people have been able to do
[17:32] <popey> that'll get even better as more devices are out there
[17:32] <popey> in more regions :)
[17:33] <ogra_> (liek the SD card issue that came up today ... that triggers proper planning of an SD card service that apps can use for example)
[17:33] <Walex> ogra_: I means really big stuff like GPS, SIM contacts, the vexed SD issue above, unmounting the SD, ...
[17:33] <popey> yeah, new apps trigger those conversations
[17:33] <ogra_> Walex, the OTA4 upudate should come today or tomorrow
[17:33] <Walex> but I heard in this channel some of those things will be fixed in that update.
[17:33] <ogra_> Walex, at least GPS now works pretty reliable
[17:33] <ogra_> (and sim contact import too)
[17:34] <Walex> good good
[17:34] <ogra_> Sd is quite a thing, since we need to secure it
[17:34] <ogra_> so that will end up with a service that SDK apps can use to write to it or some such
[17:34] <Walex> yes, I was reading the SD discussion.
[17:34] <ogra_> no direct access etc
[17:34]  * Walex is about to vanish to catch a train
[17:35]  * ogra_ would actually go with a sparse img file per app that gets loop mounted :) 
[17:35] <ogra_> that way you can still keep shared dirs like Music and Documents ... and can keep vfat
[17:35] <ogra_> but have per app dirs too
[17:37] <studio_> Walex, i don't know, why some peoples write in the internet, that the next/first convergence phone will be build by bq ... DisplayLink would be nice on all ubuntu devices ...
[17:37] <ogra_> studio_, again, the driver will prevent that from working
[17:38] <studio_> ogra_, i didn't wrote that the device is working on ubuntu, i only posted the asin
[17:39] <ogra_> studio_, well, anpok_ gave you the info that display link cant work a week ago ...
[17:39] <ogra_> due to drm drivers
[17:39] <DexterF> hi
[17:39] <popey> hi
[17:39] <ogra_> yo
[17:40] <ogra_> popey, that remids me ...
[17:40] <ogra_> why dont we have a YO! app yet !!!
[17:40] <popey> haha
[17:40] <studio_> ogra_, the guys who posted the ASIN B005RUSWHQ is working under ubuntu also wrote it is depending from the kernel
[17:40] <ogra_> or am i old fashioned and the trend is over ?
[17:40] <popey> studio_: linux support for displaylink is not great
[17:40] <popey> ogra_: i have it installed on my android device
[17:41] <popey> but only rarely "Yo" people
[17:41] <ogra_> studio_, whatever he wrote, i trust the person working on Mir a bit more about what works with it and what doesnt :)
[17:41] <anpok_> (well i didnt that sayt it wont work.. it just needs a code path that we do not have yet.. and it may be possible someone sorts that out..)
[17:41] <ogra_> (and since Mir does use a similar driver stack to wayland i guess displaylink will over time stop working on all distros)
[17:41] <anpok_> but I think studio_ is pitching that from the wrong direction..
[17:41] <DexterF> Google has annoyed me long enough and I noticed the Bq Aquaris E5 HD comes with Ubuntu preinstalled, too. So, does U/P cover all the devices features, dual sim, gps? and: is there any app that can talk to Threema?
[17:42] <ogra_> anpok_, as iusual ...
[17:42] <anpok_> /1/ Will clients of system compositors server want anything other than
[17:42] <anpok_> fullscreen surfaces? This is what the Mir code does by default, as does
[17:42] <anpok_> Unity8 and the USC spinner. (When I checked with Gerry on IRC he didn't
[17:42] <anpok_> oops
[17:42] <anpok_> wrong channel
[17:42] <ogra_> DexterF, not threema, but telegram
[17:42] <ogra_> DexterF, beyond that ... yes to all other questions
[17:43] <studio_> ogra_, how can it be, that the device is working under 14.04, but not under 14.10 or 15.04? So the must be have some changes in the kernel for ubuntu?
[17:44] <popey> studio_: displaylink devices aren't working well on linux
[17:44] <ogra_> studio_, no, distros switch away from Xorg ... and the DRM drivers used for it
[17:44] <DexterF> ogra_: hmm, bugger. I have a lot of Threema contacts. Would have to work them into switchign *again*.
[17:44] <studio_> hmm, how to fix that?
[17:44] <ogra_> and beyond that ... i think popey said 5 times now that displaylink devices are a pain under linux in general
[17:45]  * ogra_ has a few DL USB devices and they are ... well usable for consoles ... 
[17:45] <studio_> ogra_, is it general linux or only ubuntu?
[17:45] <ogra_> studio_, you talk to the vendors, talk to the driver developers, talk to the linx developers and send them patches that fix it
[17:46] <ogra_> studio_, please read the backlog, i dont want to parrot popey all the time
[17:46] <popey> studio_: linux - specifically the linux kernel
[17:49] <ogra_> DexterF, well, you could convince threema to provide a client ;)
[17:49] <studio_> popey, thanks. i am a bit confused about Android-Kernel, Ubuntu-Touch, Ubuntu-Next, Xmir, Mir, Snappy, Debian and Wayland ...
[17:49] <ogra_> thats a lot stuff unconditionally mixed together
[17:49] <popey> studio_: that's why I very deliberately said "Linux" every time. Linux is the kernel
[17:49] <DexterF> ogra_: I will ask them, actually, I just doubt they will listen
[17:49] <zyga> ogra_: I have a usb3 vga adapter
[17:49] <zyga> ogra_: works for 1080p
[17:49] <zyga> ogra_: a bit weird but works
[17:49] <ogra_> zyga, under Mir or wayland ?
[17:49] <zyga> ogra_: neither
[17:50] <ogra_> see :)
[17:50] <zyga> ogra_: under vmware
[17:50] <zyga> ogra_: and windows
[17:50] <ogra_> and once Xorg is gone there wont be a way to use it ...
[17:50] <zyga> ogra_: it's not bad apart from that
[17:50] <zyga> ogra_: (linux drivers are coming, so they say0
[17:50] <ogra_> but perhaps vaendors will recognize that and provide proper drivers
[17:51] <zyga> ogra_: the hell is very cold lately so that's quite possible
[17:51] <ogra_> lol
[17:53] <studio_> zyga, what device are you using?
[17:54] <zyga> studio_: one sec
[17:54] <zyga> studio_: usb ID: 1d5c:2000
[17:54] <zyga> studio_: it's a new chip
[17:55] <zyga> studio_: seems to be called "Fresco"
[17:55] <ogra_> because it is fresh 1
[17:55] <ogra_> !
[17:55] <ogra_> :)
[17:56] <zyga> ogra_: (fanfare) :-)
[17:56] <zyga> ogra_: I don't know if it's possible but it seems to be lossless
[17:56] <zyga> ogra_: the quality is perfect
[17:56] <popey> at 3fps?
[17:56] <studio_> zyga, what chipset is it using?
[17:56] <zyga> popey: no, full video
[17:56] <zyga> popey: I use it to roll random stuff that helps me work
[17:56] <popey> oh, usb3
[17:57] <ogra_> yeah
[17:57] <popey> missed that
[17:57] <zyga> popey: yes, it does 800x600 over usb 2
[17:57] <popey> and doesn't work at all on linux, right?
[17:57] <ogra_> with USB3 you can even have crappy drivers :)
[17:57] <zyga> popey: yep
[18:01]  * ogra_ decides to give up on py-snapper today ... 
[18:01] <ogra_> why cane everyone use shell ... all these fancy programming languages !!!
[18:01] <ogra_> *can't
[18:03] <zyga> ogra_: because they are rewriting 26 man-years of $everything to go ;-)
[18:03] <ogra_> go away !
[18:03] <ogra_> :P
[18:12] <conyoo> pfff image 160 rc proposed gives me a black screen in emulator x86
[18:13] <conyoo> i can connect adb shell to the emulator
[18:13] <ogra_> yeah, there was some issue with the gles stuff iirc
[18:13] <conyoo> connection to Mir server failed. Check that a Mir server is
[18:13] <conyoo> running, and the correct socket is being used and is accessible. The shell may have
[18:13] <conyoo> rejected the incoming connection, so check its log file
[18:13] <conyoo> ok i see
[18:13] <conyoo> thanks
[18:13] <ogra_> the emulator needs specific gles rebuilds of the driver stack
[18:13] <brunch875> hey guys I just went for a stroll and I noticed the GPS works now
[18:13] <brunch875> also, the new rotation is amazing
[18:14] <brunch875> good jerbs!
[18:14] <ogra_> sil2100, ^^ wasnt that supposed to be solved ?
[18:14] <ogra_> (qtmir-gles and friends)
[18:14] <conyoo> ogra_, thanks :P
[18:16] <svij> "Software is up to date" … *waits*
[18:16] <ogra_> haha
[18:17] <cedian_linux> Hi I'm back
[18:19]  * ogra_ feels the power 
[18:19] <popey> http://people.canonical.com/~alan/screenshots/device-2015-06-15-191414.png
[18:19] <ogra_> there it goes again
[18:19] <popey> \o/
[18:19] <ogra_> hah, you won the lottery !
[18:19] <ogra_> why is it so small ?
[18:20] <ogra_> that should be closer to 450M
[18:21] <davmor2> ogra_: I suppose that popey has all the apps updated from the store
[18:21] <ahoneybun> If I'm on wily with r220 when will we get the GPS and rotation fixes?
[18:21] <ogra_> well, that wont make the tarball he downloads smaller
[18:21] <cedian_linux> no
[18:21] <davmor2> ogra_: indeed does seem wrong
[18:22] <ogra_> ahoneybun, it is in rc-rproposed ...
[18:22] <cedian_linux> I got some errors
[18:22] <ogra_> ahoneybun, just use a sane channel . wily isnt really that
[18:22] <ahoneybun> So I think I'm on rc-proposed
[18:22] <ogra_> then you have the shell rotation
[18:23] <ahoneybun> I've not seen a big update
[18:23] <ogra_> rotate with an app open and see if the panel rotates along
[18:23] <ahoneybun> Some small app updates
[18:24] <ahoneybun> Nope
[18:24] <mariogrip> ahoneybun: I just checked, it does on rc-proposed
[18:24] <ogra_> ahoneybun, what device ?
[18:24] <ahoneybun> Mako
[18:24] <ogra_> on the bq you should be on 36
[18:24] <mariogrip> ah, i bq
[18:24] <cedian_linux> mariogrip: http://paste.ubuntu.com/11720957/
[18:24] <ogra_> ah, havent booted that in 6 months :)
[18:25] <ahoneybun> I'm on edge with it atm
[18:25] <ahoneybun> So no way I'll download a update if it does come
[18:25] <mariogrip> cedian_linux: did you pull the vendor files?
[18:25] <cedian_linux> yes I think so
[18:25] <popey> finished
[18:26] <ahoneybun> I'll reboot and check
[18:26] <popey> so ~9 minutes total ogra_
[18:26] <cedian_linux> mariogrip: nothing in there
[18:26] <ogra_> popey, how many apps ?
[18:26] <popey> phablet@ubuntu-phablet:~$ click list | wc -l
[18:26] <popey> 86
[18:26] <ogra_> mine was closer to 15 ... but that was from rtm-proposed to rc-proposed
[18:26] <ogra_> and a while ago
[18:26] <ogra_> (two weeks or so)
[18:27] <mariogrip> cedian_linux: it seems like it didn't fetch all the vendor files, i think you need to fetch them again
[18:27] <ahoneybun> So not ported to the mako yet
[18:29] <mariogrip> cedian_linux: download a working version of cm and flash it to the device and run the extract-files.sh (in device/oneplus/bacon)
[18:29] <mariogrip> cm11
[18:29] <ogra_> ahoneybun, well, it is a rootfs change ... should be identical on all devices ... but if you are on edge it perhaps simply doesnt show you the new image
[18:29] <ahoneybun> Yea maybe
[18:30] <ahoneybun> I'll check it out once I get decent wifi
[18:30] <conyoo> mmm bacon
[18:30] <cedian_linux> mariogrip: Can I sync it too?
[18:31] <mariogrip> cedian_linux: ? what to you mean by sync
[18:32] <cedian_linux> mariogrip: repo sync
[18:32] <mariogrip> ah yeah
[18:32] <mariogrip> but that will not fetch the vendor files
[18:32] <cedian_linux> not?
[18:32] <mariogrip> nope
[18:32] <cedian_linux> I got them in another directory, I think,
[18:33] <cedian_linux> they're copied
[18:33] <mariogrip> cedian_linux: http://wiki.cyanogenmod.org/w/Doc:_porting_intro#Add_the_blobs_to_the_vendor.2F_directory
[18:35] <cedian_linux> mariogrip: that's weird
[18:35] <cedian_linux> mariogrip: I thought Muppets had them
[18:37] <mariogrip> you can use this https://github.com/TheMuppets/proprietary_vendor_oppo/tree/cm-11.0
[18:37] <cedian_linux> Yeah I know mariogrip, I used it
[18:46] <bunty> anybody has any idea about x11 server issue on nexus 7 using ubuntu touch? please help.
[18:47] <lotuspsychje> bunty: wich touch channel did you install?
[18:48] <bunty> touch channel? i didn't understand?
[18:48] <lotuspsychje> bunty: you installed ubuntu touch on your nexus7 right
[18:48] <bunty> yes
[18:48] <lotuspsychje> bunty: there are several channels you can install
[18:48] <bunty> ohh yeah right
[18:49] <lotuspsychje> bunty: devel, devel-proposed,etc
[18:49] <bunty> let me tell u
[18:49] <bunty> it's devel
[18:49] <lotuspsychje> bunty: try installing devel-proposed, works very good on my nexus7
[18:49] <bunty> ohk
[18:50] <bunty> are you using gstreamer for videos?
[18:50] <lotuspsychje> no
[18:50] <bunty> because I am using this video player for running Real time streaming.
[18:51] <bunty> do you know any video player? because I can only find VLC
[18:51] <lotuspsychje> bunty: didnt test myself, you can ask in chat here
[18:51] <bunty> that to not working on my device. I am opening it but it again closes automatically
[18:52] <SturmFlut> Waiting for an OTA is always so nervewrecking
[18:53] <ogra_> lol
[18:53] <ogra_> come on :)
[18:53] <svij> SturmFlut: hehe
[18:53] <bunty> anybody using gstreamer on ubuntu touch??
[18:53] <ogra_> impatient youngsters ...
[18:53]  * ogra_ shakes his cane
[18:54] <SturmFlut> ogra_: I think we are about the same age
[18:54] <ogra_> bunty, everyone who uses media froma QML app :)
[18:54] <ogra_> *from a
[18:55] <ogra_> SturmFlut, geez, really ?
[18:55]  * ogra_ did think of you as below 30 :) 
[18:55] <ogra_> you surely have less wrinkles on IRC :)
[18:56] <svij> lol
[18:56] <SturmFlut> ogra_: Hm no, wait, you're actually ten years older
[18:56] <ogra_> ha !
[18:56] <SturmFlut> "Grandpa ogra_ is telling war stories again"
[18:56] <ogra_> well ... back then ... you know ...
[18:57] <bunty> Ogra_: I am facing problem while using gstreamer. it say X11 server problem
[18:57] <ogra_> when we compiled linux 0.99 with a steam engine ...
[18:57] <ogra_> bunty, you try to use gstreamer directly ?
[18:57] <SturmFlut> Yeah, yeah, we know, back when rubber boots were still made out of wood
[18:57] <bunty> directly?
[18:57] <ogra_> instead of through media-hub ?
[18:57] <ogra_> SturmFlut, they were so much more comfortable ... and they didnt sink if you lost them !
[18:58] <SturmFlut> ogra_: I know, everything was better back then. Even the future.
[18:58] <ogra_> yeah
[18:59] <davmor2> Luxury When I were a lad you wore broken  glass on your feet and were grateful for it ;)  I love that sketch
[18:59] <bunty> not really. I have downloaded package gstreamer 1.0 from terminal window and tryig to run it but no video pop up and even I also try to capture a animated image but its not creating that too
[19:00] <ogra_> yeah, thats not how it works
[19:00] <bunty> then?
[19:00] <ogra_> what is your final goal of this ?
[19:00] <SturmFlut> ogra_: The funny thing is that you are ten years older, but we both spent the same time using Linux.
[19:00] <bunty> I have to run a RTSP stream on gstreamer
[19:01] <taiebot> getting confused here with the channels list. What channel should i used to get mako #20 if i flash with ubuntu-device-flash touch --channel=ubuntu-touch/stable i get version #19
[19:01] <bunty> I have it on my ubuntu 12.04 desktop
[19:01] <ogra_> so you would write a QML wrapper that recieves the rtsp and hand it to the medis-hub service
[19:01] <ogra_> *media-hub
[19:01] <bunty> and the same i want on my ubuntu touch tablet
[19:01] <davmor2> SturmFlut: yeah but that is because Linux isn't that old :)
[19:01] <ogra_> SturmFlut, yeah !
[19:02] <SturmFlut> taiebot: The stable channel should give you OTA-4 (#20) within the next 24 hours
[19:02] <ogra_> i worked in non coomputer jobs until linux came around :)
[19:02] <bunty> Ogra: I am not getting your point. can you please tell me more on it
[19:03] <taiebot> Sturmflut i though forcing a channel update would give me #20
[19:03] <ogra_> bunty, to have your app work on the phone you shoulld use QML ... in QML the system offers you to use the media-hub to play audio, video and/or stream stuff
[19:03] <SturmFlut> davmor2: Both ogra_ and me started around 1995. That was 20 years ago! Old enough!
[19:03] <bunty> it means gstreamer will not work right?
[19:04] <ogra_> bunty, https://developer.ubuntu.com/api/qml/development/
[19:04] <ahayzen> Anyone else getting bug 1458897, i was getting it on rc-proposed #159 but now not on #160, it seems a bit random as it keeps getting 'fixed' and then returning, would be interested if anyone else has seen it?
[19:04] <ogra_> bunty, Ot.Multimedia uses gstreamer ... but your app wont have direct access, it needs to go through media-hub (either by using C++ and link against it or voa QML)
[19:04] <ogra_> *via
[19:04] <davmor2> SturmFlut: Meh I use BBC micros back in the day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Micro which means I used arm before it was cool :)
[19:06] <ogra_> SturmFlut, my first computer was a TI57a though ... my second one a VC20
[19:06] <ogra_> (and there was no C64 on the market back then)
[19:06] <davmor2> SturmFlut: I have a boxed SuSE Linux 6.3 on my shelf that was my first dabbling with Linux :)
[19:06]  * ogra_ has a 14 floppy SuSE version 
[19:06] <davmor2> SturmFlut: and then Fedora Core before it got numbers
[19:06] <ogra_> right before they started pressing CDs
[19:07] <davmor2> ogra_: this has both
[19:08] <ogra_> http://tajzsite.free.fr/ComputerMuseum/TI57a.jpg .... there is nothing like red glowing wires to draw numbers :)
[19:09] <ogra_> pixels are lame :)
[19:09] <SturmFlut> bunty: The phone does currently not work the same way the desktop does. The phone can run gstreamer, but you don't interact with it the way you do on the desktop.
[19:10] <davmor2> ogra_: hahaha
[19:10] <SturmFlut> bunty: I just used phablet-shell to log into my phone and tried "ubuntu-app-launch mediaplayer-app rtsp://184.72.239.149/vod/mp4:BigBuckBunny_115k.mov", it seems to work somehow. I can hear the audio, but there's no video.
[19:10] <bunty> SturmFlut: ok got it. but then what if I want to run my shell scripts on it?
[19:11] <SturmFlut> bunty: You can run your shell scripts using the "Terminal" app or phablet-shell, but there's an App Lifecycle which probably stops them in many cases.
[19:12]  * ogra_ wonders if anyone filed a bug for user crontabs not being writable btw 
[19:12] <bunty> actually in my case my shell scripts is running and also giving the proper output as i needed but when it comes to video streaming it saying x11 server error and generic error.
[19:12] <ogra_> (it came up so often on the ML now ... but i bet there is no bug)
[19:13] <mariogrip> the "generic" device on the image server is arm and just a "installable version" of the cdimage preinstalled-armhf right?
[19:13] <ogra_> bunty, because there is no X111 on the phone
[19:13] <SturmFlut> bunty: There is no X11 on the phone
[19:13] <bunty> you mean tablet right? as i am having nexus 7 tablet
[19:13] <SturmFlut> bunty: Let's say "device"
[19:14] <SturmFlut> bunty: There's no X11 on the device, it uses Mir instead.
[19:14] <bunty> yeah. so what are the possibilities to get it done?
[19:14] <ogra_> "thing" ... since we live in the aera of internet of things :)
[19:15] <ogra_> bunty, well, i gave you one above ... a few lines of QML should get you going
[19:15] <bunty> I saw a weblink given by you. but I am not getting it actually
[19:15]  * davmor2 now pictures the internet made of this http://addamsfamily.wikia.com/wiki/File:The-Thing-addams.jpg
[19:15] <ogra_> (there are surely others)
[19:15] <bunty> is it like a C++Qt?
[19:16] <ogra_> QMl is more like HTML actually
[19:16] <SturmFlut> bunty: What is your script trying to accomplish exactly? If it isn't confidential, can you post it on http://paste.ubuntu.com and post the link?
[19:16] <dobey> davmor2: just think of all the free hands there will be, to help with typing code
[19:16] <ogra_> dobey, like monkeys you mean ?
[19:16] <davmor2> dobey: so you got no excuse right :P
[19:17] <bunty> yes i can do it.
[19:17] <dobey> ogra_: an infinite number of disembodied hands, typing on an infinite number of keyboards, will recreate Shakespeare?
[19:17] <ogra_> and marx !
[19:18] <SturmFlut> Every time I think of ogra_ it ends with Snappy Skynet
[19:18] <ogra_> lol
[19:18] <SturmFlut> Snappy Skynet satellites, built from Ubuntu Fridges
[19:18] <bunty> SturmFlut: here is the line which i am trying to execute on terminal: gst-launch-1.0 rtspsrc connection-speed=100000 latency=0 buffer-mode=none location=rtsp://admin:12345@192.168.7.207 ! rtph264depay ! avdec_h264 ! videoconvert ! deinterlace mode=interlaced ! fpsdisplaysink sync=false -v
[19:19] <lotuspsychje> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-OTA-4-Update-Officially-Released-OS-Now-Based-on-Ubuntu-15-04-484370.shtml
[19:19] <dobey> bunty: you'll need to use sdl or something as the sink, which can work under mir.
[19:20] <dobey> better of course would be to perhaps sync to a stream that media-hub is playing from
[19:20] <SturmFlut> bunty: Oh, that's a pretty elaborate one. I think dobey is right, you need something at the end that talks to Mir instead of X11
[19:20] <ogra_> probabyl jhodapp can give you a hint ...
[19:20] <ogra_> (though seems he just dropped off IRC)
[19:21] <ogra_> but as the media guy he surely knows the runes
[19:22] <bunty> dobey: what kind of sink under mir you are talking about?
[19:22] <zyga> ogra_: I envy you
[19:22] <zyga> ogra_: the stuff you work on has hordes of people interested in and active
[19:22] <dobey> bunty: outputs in gstreamer are "sinks"
[19:22] <ogra_> zyga, come over to the dark side :)
[19:22] <dobey> bunty: you'll need to use one for your video, which supports rendering on mir
[19:22] <ogra_> bunty, there is jhodapp_ ;)
[19:23] <ogra_> he might be able to help you
[19:23] <zyga> ogra_: I wish I had 0.1th of that
[19:23] <dobey> zyga: meh. loads of interest == lots of people whining about things, too :)
[19:24] <ogra_> yeah
[19:24] <ogra_> and bugs
[19:24] <davmor2> or just dobey  :D
[19:24] <bunty> ogra: thanks man. i will ask him
[19:24] <ogra_> davmor2, dont you say anything bad about dobey, dobey  is always helpful and pays in scotch
[19:25] <zyga> ogra_: do you have cookies? ;)
[19:25] <zyga> dobey: that's an indication of good and bad things
[19:25] <zyga> dobey: bad is that stuff doesn't work
[19:25] <zyga> dobey: good is that people care
[19:25] <dobey> zyga: people whining doesn't necessarily mean stuff doesn't work
[19:25] <davmor2> ogra_: I don't care you're not my dad :P
[19:26] <ogra_> lol, not *that old :)
[19:26] <dobey> davmor2: no scotch for you. you get miller lite
[19:27] <SturmFlut> davmor2: never anger ogra_, he has satellite fridges. And he *will* use them.
[19:27] <ogra_> i'm working on sharks with lasers though
[19:27] <zyga> dobey: send everyone what whines to #checkbox, ;-)
[19:27] <davmor2> dobey: I don't drink you're influence is nill to me ;)
[19:27] <ogra_> sattelite fridges are so last month
[19:28] <zyga> ogra_: I was just dreaming of a micro-sat that gets launched on a rocket
[19:28] <zyga> ogra_: to get snappy into space
[19:28] <ogra_> +1
[19:28] <conyoo> *rkt
[19:28] <zyga> ogra_: I would hate to have that "oops, I boot from eMMC bug" on orbit
[19:28] <zyga> ogra_: maybe you can merge my patch ;->
[19:28] <SturmFlut> I can't think of anything cooler than an Ubuntu Fridge
[19:28] <jhodapp_> ogra_, what'd I do? ;)
[19:28] <dobey> zyga: just flash an image to a satellite that's already in orbit
[19:28] <ogra_> zyga, will care for it during the week
[19:29] <dobey> zyga: maybe you can convince the lightsail people to use it ;)
[19:29] <zyga> ogra_: thanks
[19:29] <ogra_> jhodapp, bunty tries to run gstreamer directly with an rtsp stream from commandline and doesnt know what output sink to use for Mir
[19:29] <SturmFlut> dpm: o/
[19:29] <zyga> ogra_: if it needs some more testing or different desing do tell me
[19:29] <zyga> ogra_: I just want it fixed for what we're building
[19:29] <dpm> hey SturmFlut
[19:29] <ogra_> zyga, i think we're fine with testing
[19:30] <jhodapp> ogra_, thanks, talking with him now
[19:31] <SturmFlut> ogra_, jhodapp: We could have just looked at http://sturmflut.github.io/ubuntu/bq/2015/05/31/hacking-the-bq-part-3-supported-media-plugins-and-codecs/ , there's "mirsink"
[19:32] <ogra_> lol
[19:32]  * zyga just had a quick design idea, long press on camera setting (hdr, for example) toggles the option)
[19:32] <ogra_> but who reads documentation if he can chat on IRC :)
[19:32] <jhodapp> ogra_, :)
[19:32] <SturmFlut> ogra_: I don't reverse-document all your crazy ideas for nothing!
[19:33] <ogra_> mine ?!?
[19:33] <SturmFlut> We reverse-documentists take pride in our work
[19:33] <zyga> hmm, I just reflashed krillin, is the stable channel still on the 14.09 image?
[19:33] <zyga> how does phased upgrades interact with the image server?
[19:33] <SturmFlut> zyga: system-image-cli takes a "--percentage" parameter
[19:35] <SturmFlut> zyga: look at http://system-image.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-touch/stable/bq-aquaris.en/krillin/index.json , at the very end it says "phased-percentage: 18"
[19:38] <zyga> SturmFlut: how can I flash the new version without           waiting?
[19:39] <beuno> SturmFlut, I assume your earlier ping was re: review?
[19:39]  * ogra_ wonders if u-d-f supports --percentage ... i doubt it 
[19:39] <ogra_> so you likely have to flash what you get and then use system-image-cli
[19:40] <conyoo> unknown flag `percentage'
[19:42] <ogra_> lol
[19:43]  * ogra_ sees SturmFlut's last G+ post and notes that most of his apps are still on 14.04 
[19:44] <dobey> would be nice to see how many people have upgraded to the new image once the rollout is done, and it's been a couple days
[19:45] <dobey> see how many people with the e4.5 didn't upgrade
[19:46] <SturmFlut> beuno: No, it was a question about flagging an inappropriate app in the store at first, but it quickly extended into a more general discussion about more things. Consider it solved for the moment, I'll write to the mailing list once I have throught everything through.
[19:46] <zyga> ogra_: I tried s-i-c --percentage both 1 and 100 and still nothing?
[19:46] <ogra_> zyga, i think you need to match the percentage in the index.json
[19:47] <zyga> ah
[19:47] <zyga> ok
[19:47] <beuno> SturmFlut, ack. We have an API to flag them that the client doesn't use (yet)
[19:47] <ogra_> (not sure though)
[19:47] <SturmFlut> dobey: I thought the exact same thing just a couple of hours ago! We really need more statistics about the store, so we developers can target the platforms of our users better
[19:48] <SturmFlut> beuno: Ooooh! I didn't know about that.
[19:48] <beuno> SturmFlut, luckily, it hadn't been terribly important so far  :)
[19:49] <zyga> ogra_: nope, doesn't work either
[19:49] <ogra_> sad
[19:49] <zyga> SturmFlut: do you know perhaps? --percentage, how to use it?
[19:49] <ogra_> zyga, oh, did you stop the running backend first ?
[19:50] <ogra_> running s-i-c twice in a row witout killing the dbus process is a bit tricky
[19:50] <ogra_> (it times out after 10 or 15min)
[19:51] <SturmFlut> beuno: Yep, today was the first time that I came across an app where I thought "this is not right, this should be checked"
[19:51] <dobey> SturmFlut: are you talking about that telegram app?
[19:51] <ogra_> yeah
[19:52] <dobey> it looks ok to me
[19:52] <SturmFlut> dobey: Jep, sorry for nagging about it
[19:52] <dobey> well, i didn't go through the code, but the code for the web site looks to be gplv3 and it's on github, and it's a fork of the other webogram app
[19:53]  * ogra_ wanders away t the Tv to watch the world cup ... 
[19:53] <beuno> there's one that redirects all your data through their own service
[19:53] <beuno> that was unpublished
[19:54] <SturmFlut> dobey: There are three of those apps now, DTelegram, Webogram and Sommergram. They all load unsigned code from a third-party website, while we have a native Telegram app and while there is https://web.telegram.com . I have no idea what the guy behind Sommergram is planning, he just forked Webogram to change the color of the icons and so he can host the code himself.
[19:56] <SturmFlut> In all three cases I would expect that it's just a webapp wrapper around the official web client, not that it pulls code from somewhere else.
[19:57] <dobey> SturmFlut: well, webogram was made before telegram had the web or ubuntu clients
[19:57] <ogra_> SturmFlut, oxide allows you to inject any kind of code in the browser ... so be happy they are doing it that obvious ...
[19:58] <ogra_> the could just use a local greasemonkey script and you wouldnt notice
[19:59] <SturmFlut> dobey: As far as I understand it, web.telegram.com is an officially hosted instance of Webogram
[19:59] <SturmFlut> s/web.telegram.com/web.telegram.org/
[20:01] <conyoo> i'm gonna start learning c, can you guys give me some pointers?
[20:02] <conyoo> pointers, hehe (i'm so dumb)
[20:02] <dobey> write code
[20:03] <SturmFlut> I don't want to nag about it too much, I fully understand that some things cannot be prevented and the world will never be perfect. I just have the feeling that some security-related things could be improved. Let's end the discussion for today, I'll come up with some proposals and then we can look if any of it makes sense.
[20:05] <SturmFlut> beuno: Are there any plans to show the requested AppArmor profiles before an app is about to be installed?
[20:06] <beuno> SturmFlut, quite the opposite
[20:06] <beuno> there's a write up somewhere as to why we don't want to replicate what android did
[20:06] <beuno> and instead show users in context when an app tries to access something
[20:10] <SturmFlut> beuno: But that doesn't apply to all AppArmor profiles, right? e.g. there is a permission dialogue if an app tries to geolocate the user, but there is none if it tries to connect to remote hosts.
[20:11] <dobey> SturmFlut: but apps can't read arbitrary paths on the filesystem either
[20:12] <SturmFlut> dobey: Sure, but you can do lots of stupid things without requiring access to user data. For example I could turn my QML game into a DDoS bot, and at this moment nobody would ever notice that a simple QML game attacks remote hosts while the user is playing.
[20:13] <dobey> SturmFlut: also, i don't think allowing it to a choose a contact magically grants it permissions to read all your contacts. it only gets the contacts you pick via content-hub, as i understand
[20:13] <dobey> SturmFlut: well, if it's qml/js, so i'm sure someone would figure it out by reading the source :)
[20:14] <dobey> SturmFlut: but sure. but you can only do that while the user is actively using the app. and if the purpose of your game is to ddos stuff, it's probably going to be a very unresponsive and crappy game while you are performing those attacks, so nobody will want to play it, and thus nobody will be running it :)
[20:17] <dobey> SturmFlut: then there's also the problem that people don't view network as private data, and expect everything does something on the internet, so asking that for every app is going to be daunting for the user.
[20:17] <zyga> ogra_: no, thanks for the tip!
[20:18] <SturmFlut> dobey: I think full network access is so powerful that the user should be informed if an app wants to use it. It doesn't have to request permission for every connection, a general "do you really want this app to access the network" dialogue the first time would IMO already be much better than what we have now.
[20:19] <SturmFlut> dobey: Users are actually quite sensitive about app permissions, just look at the Android App Store. There are lots of people who write negative reviews because of too extensive permissions requested.
[20:20] <dobey> SturmFlut: yes, but android's permissions are also very unclear, and often very broad. nobody complains about the apps having network access though.
[20:20] <dobey> SturmFlut: you'd be better off comparing ubuntu to what ios does, i think
[20:21] <jjohansen> SturmFlut: install permy it will show you the set of permissions the app has
[20:21] <SturmFlut> dobey: Good point, I've never used iOS. Will have to do some research.
[20:24] <SturmFlut> jjohansen: Good call. I think something like Permy should be integrated into the core system.
[20:25] <jjohansen> SturmFlut: yeah, it really should
[20:25] <SturmFlut> *note*
[20:28] <cedian_linux> jjohansen I'll use Ubuntu 14.04 or what the latest LTS was mariogrip: I'll remove Ubuntu 15.04 and go back to the latest LTS due to build problems
[20:29] <jdstrand> writing it down and bring it up for discussion is a good thing. I can say that the current behavior is that we want tasteful contextual prompting. contacts is a good example of contextual prompting-- the user picks a contact and then behind the scenes that is implied permissions
[20:30] <jdstrand> an app that tries to access location service is an example of straight up security prompting-- it asks the first time, but then is remembered
[20:31] <jdstrand> assuming networking could be made to work like loaction service, nearly every app would ask for the networking permission
[20:31] <jdstrand> or rather
[20:31] <jdstrand> nearly every app current does ask for the network permission and if we prompted on first access, all of those would ask on startup
[20:32] <jdstrand> there are scores of scopes installed on the device now
[20:32] <jdstrand> they all hit the network in some fashion
[20:32] <jdstrand> so there is an interesting user experience issue to deal with on networking
[20:34] <jdstrand> and prompting the first time (nearly) every new app is launched is not a good user experience or tasteful. people understand in this day and age nearly everything hits the network and prompting for it would desensitize people
[20:34] <cedian_linux> BTW Google wants to allow users what to share with a  app ops kind of thing  while app ops never was planned to release, but CyanogenMod kept it
[20:34] <jdstrand> so we don't prompt on that but do make sure apps can't steal data and send it off
[20:35] <SturmFlut> jdstrand: I could imagine some kind of "Audit Mode" for us paranoid people. It would simply log some things, like basic information about established network connections, to the logfile. This way it doesn't annoy the "normal" user, it makes my life much easier, and the information could be much more detailed than a simple tcpdump/tshark because the runtime environment (e.g. Qt or the JavaScript engine) could "enrich" it.
[20:35] <jdstrand> fyi, Ubuntu touch supports removing permissions from an app (eg, 'networking') if people want to do that
[20:36] <jdstrand> it isn't exposed via a gui though, but it can be done. it is also expected most apps won't function correctly if you remove the permissions they ask for
[20:36] <jdstrand> but again, it is there for people who want it
[20:36] <jdstrand> SturmFlut: I would not at all be opposed to audit mode
[20:37] <SturmFlut> \o/
[20:37] <dobey> i could see a case for prompting for network access, when on a data plan that can be quite costly, for things that would be running in the background
[20:37] <dobey> it would be weird though to have youtube asking me for network access
[20:38] <cedian_linux> but most people allow everything in order for free stuff. I've read that there were people who made a free open wife access point a which was fake they got around 10-20 users, later they made a fake page which people were redirected to on which stood that everyone who wanted wifi access should've gave his first born child or any pet
[20:38] <jdstrand> yeah, it is an interesting problem
[20:38] <cedian_linux> a lot of people accepted it
[20:38] <jdstrand> do note application lifecycle prevents this background thing, but that will have to be adjusted for converged anyway
[20:39] <jdstrand> cedian_linux: yeah, the world can be a scary place with bad people :\
[20:39] <jdstrand> that sounds dismissive, but it wasn't
[20:40] <jdstrand> people put so much trust into the network they are on and the apps they have installed without even thinking twice about it
[20:40] <jdstrand> let alone the isp they use or the country they are in :)
[20:41] <SturmFlut> jdstrand: I'll see if I can write something up until the end of the week. I'll be on trains for a *very* long time, lots of time to think
[20:41] <cedian_linux> some manufacturers of NAS added anonymous FTP. It was on avrotros opgelicht/avrotros scammed
[20:41] <cedian_linux> yeah jdstrand
[20:42] <cedian_linux> and with a simple Google search people had access to digital identification papers
[20:42] <cedian_linux> or any search
[20:43] <cedian_linux> in my country the Netherlands the government has a bad security department
[20:43] <cedian_linux> I mean web security
[20:44] <cedian_linux> cool SturmFlut
[20:46] <SturmFlut> While we're at it: LastPass was hacked
[20:47] <SturmFlut> Storing passwords in the cloud, what could go wrong
[20:47] <cedian_linux> Keepass is also decrypted
[20:48] <cedian_linux> Yeah what can go wrong with key data we store bad encrypted publically for everyone
[20:50] <cedian_linux> My phone wanted to type keep ass instead of keepass
[20:58] <K1773R> jdstrand: thinking twice about it? i would be happy if they think once about it...
[21:01] <jdstrand> haha
[21:03] <cedian_linux> K1773R is right
[21:06] <brunch875> Damn I need a bluetooth headset
[21:06] <brunch875> better yet, what I need is to answer calls on my desktop
[21:07] <brunch875> oh please tell me you've got something on hands
[21:25] <SturmFlut> With OTA-4 on krillin there's a single white pixel in the top left of the indicator bar. Does anybody else see this too?
[21:30] <SturmFlut> What the...
[21:32] <SturmFlut> popey, mzanetti: Ping
[21:33] <mzanetti> you, what up?
[21:33] <mzanetti> SturmFlut, ^ :)
[21:34] <SturmFlut> mzanetti: On the first reboot after the OTA-4 update it looked like the whole framebuffer on krillin was shifted one pixel to the right.
[21:34] <mzanetti> hmm... yeah... we have seen that before, but never found a way to reproduce and it doesn't seem to happen often
[21:34] <SturmFlut> A-ha!
[21:34] <mzanetti> must be in the lower layers somewhere, quite sure it's not unity
[21:35] <SturmFlut> I would think so, I took screenshots and the problem is not visible on them
[21:35] <mzanetti> yep
[21:35] <SturmFlut> Let me see if I can trigger this...
[21:41] <SturmFlut> Hm, no, at least my idea didn't trigger it once in five reboots
[21:46] <SturmFlut> ogra_: Oh, apparently the phased update logic changed between OTA-3.5 and OTA-4?
[22:00] <cedian_linux> Notification led works on the opo
[22:10] <SturmFlut> rsalveti: Ping
[22:14] <SturmFlut> sil2100: Ping
[22:15] <sil2100> SturmFlut: pong
[22:16] <nhaines> Hmm, it worked just fine in the vivid-proposed days, and it works fine on wily, but OTA-4 broke contenthub with my webapp.
[22:17] <SturmFlut> sil2100: I was just looking at the phased update process out of curiosity, and I'm probably just an idiot, but the code shipped with OTA-4 is different from the one in OTA-3.5 and checking the github code for ubuntu-system-image the version in OTA-4 seems to have been replaced last year
[22:19] <SturmFlut> sil2100: Was the system-image-common package somehow reverted back to an older version on OTA-4?
[22:23] <sil2100> SturmFlut: hmmm, I just checked an I'm a bit worried now, it seems that indeed barry didn't backport the s-i version to the vivid overlay
[22:24] <SturmFlut> sil2100: I just found out because the code for the calculation of the phased update percentage is broken in this version, otherwise I wouldn't have noticed
[22:24] <sil2100> 14.09 had a custom system-image version, wily got the 3.0 s-i, but it seems none of those got prepared for the PPA
[22:25] <SturmFlut> sil2100: And lots of other files in that package have timestamps from last year too
[22:28] <sil2100> SturmFlut: thanks for noticing, it's indeed troublesome that barry didn't forward the changes there
[22:28] <SturmFlut> sil2100: :/
[22:29]  * sil2100 needs to go to sleep now
[22:29] <SturmFlut> sil2100: Yeah, me too, same timezone
[22:29] <sil2100> I'll bring it up with him tomorrow once he's up
[22:29] <SturmFlut> sil2100: Good night
[22:30] <sil2100> Good night!
[22:33] <cedian_linux> Good night folks
[22:42] <ignacio> Hi everyone :P