[16:30] <sladen> evening all
[16:30] <sladen> T-30 minutes
[16:31] <ahoneybun> just so you know that calendar link is dead
[16:32] <sladen> ahoneybun: the calendar link in the /topic?
[16:32] <ahoneybun> yep
[16:32] <ahoneybun> http://ubuntu-news.org/calendars/fridge/
[16:32] <ahoneybun> this is the right one
[16:32] <sladen> should be http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/  (plural)
[16:32] <ahoneybun> yes
[16:32] <ahoneybun> that works
[16:33] <ahoneybun> no meeting today on there
[16:34] <sladen> ahoneybun: I confuse that I don't know how to update the calendar
[16:34] <sladen> ahoneybun: I confess that I don't know how to update the calendar
[16:34] <ahoneybun> oh ok
[16:34] <ahoneybun> np
[16:35] <sladen> ahoneybun: if you know then we could get it added
[16:35] <sladen> abhopefully we can facilitate the meeting advertised in  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2015-June/000612.html
[16:36] <ahoneybun> seems it is using google calenday
[16:36] <ahoneybun> *calendar
[16:36] <sladen> and originally suggested in  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2015-June/000609.html
[16:37] <ahoneybun> sladen: are you saying this is the KC and CC meeting?
[16:38] <ScottK> sladen: I don't think there's a meeting today.
[16:38] <sladen> ahoneybun: well we don't know; but I'm happy to put energy into anything that helps move things along
[16:38] <ScottK> You suggested it, but almost no one is available.
[16:39] <sladen> ahoneybun: various people are unavailable; so it may just be me---in which case people are most welcome to join, but we of course can't force only one, only invite and make space available
[16:39] <sladen> ScottK: it was suggested in this email  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2015-June/000609.html
[16:39] <ScottK> I know.
[16:39] <ahoneybun> sladen: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Calendar
[16:40] <sladen> ScottK: I hope my contribution has been to positively reinforce the idea and to put things in place in case they are useful
[16:40] <ScottK> sladen: I find that tone problematic.  One might infer from that since you've made space available, anyone not taking advantage of it is uninterested in a solution.
[16:40] <ScottK> This isn't a useful exercise.
[16:41] <ScottK> It would be much better to just schedule something far enough out that we can pick some time when most people can participate.
[16:41] <nealmcb> Hi, sladen - thanks for trying to help out in a sticky situation
[16:41] <nealmcb> Hi, ScottK!
[16:41] <ScottK> Hello nealmcb
[16:41] <sladen> ScottK: it's entirely optional. And anyone else is welcome;  could you suggest a better wording that is clear that it is not putting an onerous on anyone
[16:42] <ScottK> I think "nevermind, I was confused about the day the CC was meeting on" would work.
[16:43] <sladen> ScottK: well there's already more people here now and talking so far, than there were yesterday---so any confusion may have been a happy accident
[16:43] <sladen> ScottK: we may have a better idea in an hour or so's time
[16:43] <ScottK> Virtually no one from the Kubuntu Council is around.
[16:44] <ScottK> It's the middle of my work day and today I certainly don't have time for an extended distraction from that.
[16:46] <sladen> ScottK: that's perfectly okay, and I'm sure many will appreciate the extra time you've take to pop by and clearly say so
[16:46] <sladen> taken
[16:47] <nealmcb> minutes from yesterday's ubuntu community council weekly meeting at 17:00 yesterday: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/06/18/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
[16:47] <nealmcb> oops - not minutes - just the log...
[16:49] <sladen> nealmcb: excellent.  One thing I was hoping to get done was to grab links for the most relevant answers so that they could be pasted into the Wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda for better context/quick reference
[16:49] <sladen> nealmcb: I haven't managed to do that yet, would it be something you would be able to cast an independent eye over and help with
[16:50] <sladen> nealmcb: it might be possible to pair up some of mhall119's updates with some of the collection of points that have come up on the community-list in the last months and so might come up in conversation
[16:54] <nealmcb> sladen: Today I'm working hard on our spark course, and celebrating my birthday :)  I might be able to carve out some time on Sunday if others think it would be helpful.
[16:55] <sladen> nealmcb: okay, I'll try and do it now in case it comes up
[16:55] <sladen> nealmcb: but perhaps there would be an opportuntity for anyone else who joins to collectively sing happy birthday
[16:56] <Kilos> happy birthday nealmcb
[16:56]  * Kilos greets everyone else
[16:57]  * nealmcb smiles
[16:59] <sladen> greetings kilos
[17:01] <Riddell> hi
[17:03]  * ovidiu-florin waves
[17:04] <sladen> hello Riddell and ovidiu-florin
[17:04] <sladen> and any other whom migth be around
[17:05] <sladen> various people have mentioned that they are already at work/busy/unavailable, which is perfeclty reasonable as it was only 36 hours ago that the idea was first suggested
[17:06] <sladen> there have been a lot of topics come up in the last month, many of which have large emotional associations for some people
[17:06] <sladen> so perhaps it would be useful to initially look at things that are less contraverversial
[17:07] <sladen> for a positive goal by the end it might be worth seeing if the idea suggested of a Doodle poll could be taken forward by somebody
[17:07] <sladen> and to name who that person might be (if a Doodle hasn't already been set up)
[17:07] <nealmcb> Note that the weekly ubuntu community council meeting was yesterday (Thursday) at 17:00.  IRC log here: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/06/18/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
[17:08] <Riddell> polling for dates/times is just how a meeting is scheduled, if someone wants to schedule a meeting they should go ahead
[17:08] <nealmcb> With some updates on some of sladen's agenda items
[17:08] <Riddell> I don't have the energy and I don't have the desire while stuff like petty articles on fridge are being posted and defended and I doubt anyone else in Kubuntu does either
[17:09] <sladen> there is also the chance to reflect objectively on some of the less hot potatoes
[17:10] <Riddell> there has been a spectacular failure of communtiy management by the CC, it's really draining of any motivation to be part of the project
[17:10] <sladen> Riddell: I can certainly see that particular item may be frustrting; I'm also aware that other individuals involved have items and wording which they too find frustrating
[17:11] <sladen> Riddell: so it would be useful to see what can be offered equally, so that there are clear mutual steps for all involved
[17:11] <sladen> the first of which may be to simply get used to each others' faces, mannerisms, and personas
[17:11] <Riddell> why? the CC started this nonsense, they should clear it up, community management is the role they're supposed to have
[17:13] <sladen> from some of the items joted down on  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda#General_Agenda_Items_and_Proposals  I can see that frusration was also for instance expressed at a caption on an image
[17:14] <sladen> I'm not sure that "them"/"they"/"us" and seeking to attribute blame  is likely to helpe people start talking
[17:14] <sladen> within our community/communities we are all equally responsible for taking things forward
[17:15] <sladen> and helping each other to talk and listen
[17:15] <Riddell> no we're not, we have defined roles in ubuntu
[17:15] <sgclark> Woah, wait, we are not allowed to have captions on our personal blogs?
[17:16] <Riddell> I've never heard anyone frustrated at that blog post, I've no idea what they would be frustrated by
[17:16] <sladen> sgclark: please don't reflect on any individual frustration; what matters is to recognise that frustrations are present in _all_ directions
[17:17] <sladen> sgclark: so focusing on what can be proactively _offered_ to others, over making _demands_/_ultimatiums_
[17:17] <nealmcb> Yes - lots of frustrations, and lots of great volunteer work by great people all around also.  I give thanks for the latter :)
[17:18] <sgclark> I asked a simple question, please don't call me out like that.
[17:18] <sladen> nealmcb: yes, positive reenforcement is good; I try to do this whenever possible, and I hope that others can do too
[17:18] <Riddell> sgclark++
[17:19] <sladen> sgclark: could you suggest how responses could be phrased more clearly, eg, would it be better for use all to use 'nickname:' prepending during this conversation, or to try and always reply without highlighting anyone else?
[17:20]  * Riddell sees no relevance in that
[17:20] <sladen> sgclark: I can see why higlighting might give the impression of personalisation
[17:20] <ovidiu-florin> sladen: she did not talk about the highlighting
[17:20] <sladen> Riddell: could you clarify what "that" is is; is it about highlighting, or frustrations, or image captions, or something else?
[17:21] <Riddell> highlighting
[17:21] <sgclark> well ok we are getting off track here.
[17:21] <sgclark> next
[17:22] <sladen> there as been some suggestion of a Doodle for finding dates (not everyone has been available today, nor at such short notice)
[17:22] <sgclark> correct
[17:23] <sladen> I'd be interested (as a member of the *buntu community) whether there has been started/done/is in progress
[17:23] <Riddell> I've not heard from anyone on it
[17:23] <sladen> and if not whether we could find somebody whowould take on the responsibilty for trying to make it happen
[17:23] <Riddell> mark said to contact claire to organise a date but I've no desire to spend my time and energy organising anything
[17:23] <sgclark> doodle poll would be best, none started I don't think.
[17:24] <sladen> sgclark: would this be something you'd be willing to have a crack at doing?
[17:24] <mhall119> sladen: I'm working on getting sabdfl's availability, as I think it's important for him to be there if at all possible, and will send out a proposed time or a doodle poll of multiple times
[17:25] <sgclark> No, this is not my responsibility. looks lik mhall119 is already on it :)
[17:26] <sladen> mhall119: that's wonderful to hear---not being @canonical at the moemnt I don't have the privilege of easily checking sabdfl's calendar!
[17:26] <mhall119> sladen: I'm going through Claire as Mark suggested
[17:27] <sladen> mhall119: is the Doodle something you would be happy to take on organisation
[17:27] <sladen> mhall119: it sounds like you might be hinting at this having some some leg-work on it already
[17:27] <mhall119> sladen: yes, if we have more than one day/time where mark is available
[17:27] <mhall119> sladen: it has been started yes
[17:29] <sladen> mhall119: groovy, is there any additional assistance that might be required---if not would you be able to email the community-team mailing list so that others are able to follow the progress and know that things are happen
[17:29] <sladen> appening
[17:29] <sladen> happening
[17:29] <mhall119> sladen: email saying that a day and time is being worked on?
[17:30] <sladen> mhall119: perhaps an email updating when a Doodle link has been sent out
[17:30] <mhall119> sladen: I can do that if you think there is value in progress updates like that
[17:31] <sladen> mhall119: but if that takes more than a couple of hours days, then yes, an email update saying that it is still in progress (and hasn't been dropped) would help to keep things visible for the wider *buntu community
[17:31] <mhall119> ok
[17:32] <sladen> mhall119: yes, proactive updates (even to say that something has/hasn't been done---which is perfectly okay) are often useful the updates answers people's questions before they have thought of them, and so help to reduce the potential for tension
[17:33] <mhall119> that's fine, as long as I'm not spamming the ML with useless stuff
[17:33] <sladen> mhall119: it might also be useful doing this eg. on a weekly based for the FSF/SFLC/copyright/trademark issue---so that it's clear and transparent that a delay is not attributable to the Community Council itself, if that is the case
[17:34] <sladen> voids/gaps tend to get filled in, and presumptions used to fill the voids may not always prove accurate of correct
[17:34] <mhall119> sladen: Canonical and the SFLC should both be publishing an announcement when the IP Policy changes land, until that happens there's nothing really to post other than the fact that it hasn't happened yet
[17:35] <Riddell> the CC should make a statement saying there is no need for derivatives to recompile binaries beyond removing trademarks which is entirely within their power, but they don't want to do that for some reason and so potential for confusion and the resuling harm it does to ubuntu continues
[17:37] <ogra_> Riddell, how is the CC qualified to make such statements ?
[17:37] <Riddell> ogra_: because it's their role to ensure the community management of ubuntu
[17:37] <sladen> mhall119: yes, thats often the key: it helps to clearly separate out what is parked vs. delayed vs. cancelled---and if it's clear after a while that there is a hold-up/log-jam elsewhere, other people following have a better idea and indication where and whom to start asking instead
[17:37] <sgclark> Pretty sure that is something that needs to be published by authoritive figures.
[17:37] <Riddell> this is something that harms ubuntu so they should manage it
[17:37] <ogra_> sure ... community management means not "interpreting licensing" ... thats lawyer territory ...
[17:38] <Riddell> no it's not
[17:38] <sgclark> yes it is
[17:38] <Riddell> I'm trusted by ubuntu to review licences every day for ubuntu
[17:38] <ogra_> yes, they shoudl manage the communication to lawyers
[17:38] <mhall119> the CC will not make any statements about the IP Policy other than to announce the changes when they are published
[17:38] <ogra_> but they are not lawyers and in no way qualified to make any such statements
[17:39] <sladen> ogra_: for clarity 'they' == individuals on the Ubnutu Community Council?
[17:39] <mhall119> The changes to the policy and their associated interpretations are being handled by lawyers from Canonical and the SFLC
[17:39] <ogra_> sladen, and the council itself
[17:39] <ogra_> sladen, so "they" as a whole ...
[17:39] <Riddell> this is a very basic part of free software, it's really not at all complex, it's what binds us all together
[17:39] <Riddell> if they can't even comment on it then they're not capable of understanding the community
[17:40] <sladen> ogra_: thank you---been gently trying to encourage avoiding of "they"/"them"/"us" as it often introduces tension, and brings with it lack of clarity about precise whom is being referred to
[17:40] <sgclark> We are once again off topic.
[17:40] <ogra_> in my vision nobody on the council or the council as an entity is able to make such statements ... but i fuully agree that they are responsible for carrying community requests to lawyers forward (in either direction, i dont mean canonical lawyers here, they could pick whomever)
[17:41] <mhall119> ogra_: which has been done, now are are simply waiting for those lawyers to come to their conclusions and state them
[17:41] <Riddell> ogra_: as I say I review licences for ubuntu every day, it's really not hard, it's the basics of what allows open source to function
[17:41] <ogra_> yes, sorry, didnt mean to drag you guys offtipoc
[17:42] <mhall119> unless anything changes, there is nothing more for the CC to do on this topic but wait
[17:42] <sgclark> Right, so carry on with the rest of the meeting please.
[17:42] <ogra_> Riddell, thins is about a statement on an official project wide page ... not about any packaging licenses
[17:43] <Riddell> claiming the work we do on ubuntu can't be freely shared is directly in contradition to the ubuntu promise that founded this project, the CC is perfectly able to stand by that promise and alay any fears about it not being true
[17:43] <Riddell> ogra_: it's a statement about packaging licences
[17:43] <ogra_> (and about its phrasing or the changing of this phrasing)
[17:44] <sgclark> We are wasting our time here.
[17:44] <sladen> perhaps we can collectively recognise that there is a disagreement on this particular point
[17:44] <sladen> that we have heard the update from mhall119 that the issue is out-standing
[17:44]  * ogra_ will just shut up, since i dragged you away from the topic ... sorry again :) 
[17:45] <mhall119> the SFLC and Canonical have agreed to changes (not yet published) that both sides agree will guarantee that the IP Policy is compliant with all the open source licenses we use
[17:45] <sladen> and we chave heard the possibility of more regular updates about reporting issues that out-standing because they are blocked waiting on the actions of others or other groups outside of direct influence
[17:45] <sladen> ogra_: I have found your input and thoughts interesting to read---so chances are other people have too
[17:46] <sladen> to echo sgclark's suggestion, lets take another item that's easier to talk about and surrounded by less emotion
[17:46] <sladen> about 15 minutes ago, dpm posted an update on the Canonical Community Team's work in the last week
[17:46] <sladen> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2015-June/000624.html
[17:49] <sladen> I've had the privilege of working with various levels of insight into Canonical, and so I know there can be issues about creating visibility of what is happening
[17:49] <sladen> as frequently that is often only shared internall, or within a team, or those at eighbouring desks
[17:49] <sladen> so this is an interesting insight into what is happening, and would like to see them continue to unfold
[17:50] <sladen> dpm also made a suggestion the day before in   https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2015-June/000619.html
[17:50] <sladen> about moving to a 3-week cycle
[17:51] <sladen> for Community things, and I wonder whether this would have a perceived positive or negative impact on those recent developments to encourage updates
[17:52] <sladen> eg. how would it fit in with organising contributions to events like the South East Linux Festival(/)
[17:52] <sladen> ...I would also be interesting in hearing more about that
[17:53] <sladen> it's a while since I would regularly organsing Ubuntu and outreach events
[17:53] <sladen> so I don't have quite so much insight at the moment about how Ubuntu is perceived
[17:53] <sladen> is there anyone who would like to share any recent interactions about how they've explains Ubuntu, how it is perceived and so forth?
[17:54] <sladen> ...for example I know I've found it difficulty to authoritively explain recent developments to other people even less informed about Ubuntu, through not having information myself
[17:56] <sgclark> We (my loco) teamed with KDE and represented *ubuntu @ LFNW and it was a great response.
[17:56] <sgclark> We burned many CDs of all flavors including Unity
[17:57] <sgclark> This was before reecent events though
[17:58] <sladen> LFNW seeems to be Linux Fest North West
[17:58] <sgclark> that is correct
[17:58] <sladen> sgclark: would you be able to share a little more about where its held, and what you managed to organise, many people , and what setup you used
[17:59] <sgclark> Disorganized and choas, but we had a blast anyway
[17:59] <sladen> sgclark: did you use any of the marketing materials---table clothes etc (if so did the person arranging these have any difficulties getting them)
[17:59] <sladen> these thigns often feel that way, but the adrenaline keeps people going!
[17:59] <sgclark> wxl WAS KIND ENOUGH TO TAKE CARE OF THAT :) NO ISSUES THAT i AM AWARE, WE DID NOT HAVE ANY FANCY DECORATIONS THOUGH.
[18:00] <sgclark> oops
[18:00] <sgclark> caplock..
[18:00] <wxl> sgclark: we did have those nice whiteboard drawings tho ;)
[18:00] <sgclark> we did get some great swag, it went super fast.
[18:01] <sgclark> wxl: true!
[18:02] <mhall119> sgclark: at SELF I asked ahoneybun if there was artwork for Kubuntu DVDs and sleeve and he didn't know of any so he's taken it up to create some, do you have any for the ones you burned?
[18:03] <sgclark> mhall119: no :( it was a pity, we had to marker all our burns, hense the unorganized and chaos statement, that is something we need to work on.
[18:04] <ahoneybun> I just need the size that the Canoncial uses
[18:04] <ahoneybun> for the DVD sleeves
[18:04] <mhall119> ahoneybun: do you have the email address for anyone in the design team?
[18:04] <mhall119> they should be able to give you sizes
[18:04] <sladen> wxl: you have pictures;  and sgclark/wxl: about the 'swag', what do you think worked well/mostly effectively/least effectively?
[18:05] <ahoneybun> um I think someone gave me and pleia2 some unicorn and vervet svgs
[18:05] <ahoneybun> not sure if they are in the design team
[18:05] <wxl> sladen: yeah we tweeted some pictures. i've been meaning to create a blog about it but i'm hella behind on things. :(
[18:05] <wxl> well, tweets and g+
[18:05] <sgclark> sladen: tshirts were gone in minutes lol
[18:05] <mhall119> ahoneybun: I'll email john lea and CC you in on it
[18:06] <wxl> sladen: regarding swag, we got the usual stuff from ubuntu. it all sort of went quickly but the lanyards were the slowest ;)
[18:06] <ahoneybun> mhall119: thank you michael
[18:06] <sgclark> yeah I did the G+ and twitter thing
[18:06] <sgclark> also behind in blog posts here
[18:06] <wxl> sladen: i'd say we also had really good response from offering DVDs of your choice, burning on the spot
[18:06] <sgclark> yeah
[18:06] <sgclark> our booth was always pretty swamped
[18:07] <mhall119> was there a good turnout at LFNW? any attendee numbers available?
[18:07] <ahoneybun> mhall119: how could I get a cloth like the Ubuntu one but with Kubuntu and blue?
[18:07] <mhall119> ahoneybun: you'd probably need to get one made
[18:08] <mhall119> that's what loco teams have done too
[18:08] <ahoneybun> mhall119: any place you know of?
[18:08] <sladen> ahoneybun: I think there night be some; there was one at FOSDEM in Brussels this year---perhaps Riddell knows how it got there/what its origin was
[18:08] <sgclark> mhall119: yes great turn out 2000 I think ?
[18:08] <mhall119> no, but itnet7 might know, I think he had one for the florida loco
[18:08] <mhall119> sgclark: oh wow, so it's really big
[18:08] <ahoneybun> oh ok
[18:09] <sgclark> it is no oscon, but for our corner of the US it is great :)
[18:09] <sladen> trouble is that often soembody has to carry/transport make sure these things arrive
[18:09] <mhall119> sgclark: bigger than SELF was over here from the sound of it
[18:09] <Riddell> it was a KDE one we had at FOSDEM, but there is a community fund anyone can apply to if they want to make their own one
[18:09] <sgclark> cool :)
[18:09] <Riddell> logistics is often a problem indeed
[18:10] <ahoneybun> Riddell: mhall119 I'll check out getting one for Akademy if possible
[18:10] <mhall119> ahoneybun: will there be booths at akademy?
[18:10] <ahoneybun> no clue XD
[18:11] <ahoneybun> well good to have either way
[18:11] <sgclark> no it is not that kind of cnonference
[18:11] <sgclark> we work >.<
[18:12] <sgclark> well I guess there are a few tables, but I did not have time to spend much time at them lol
[18:13] <sladen> I'm still enjoying listening to this, but before everyone drifts away, could I say:
[18:13] <sladen> Thank you to Kilos ovidiu-florin nealmcb Riddell sgclark mhall119 ogra_ wxl ahoneybun for all your contributions, time and sharing during the last hour; it has been really enjoyable and reassuring to read what has been happening---and plus updates with getting the Doodle organised and updates about keeping visibility up on out-standing topics.
[18:13] <sladen> More on the ubuntu-community-team mailing list---it may be a long road, hopefully this gentley provides the opportunity for evenyone individually to get the ball rolling!
[18:14] <sladen> and perhaps we can sing Happy Birthday to ncbetoo!
[18:14] <wxl> haaaaaaappy birthday to yoooooooooou
[18:14] <sladen> and perhaps we can sing Happy Birthday to nealmcb!
[18:14] <Kilos> sladen  happy to be here
[18:14] <ogra_> hah
[18:14] <wxl> haaaaaaappy birthday to yoooooooooou
[18:14] <sladen> happy birthday tooo  youuuuu
[18:14] <wxl> happy biiiiiiirthday ncbetoo and nealmcb
[18:14] <ogra_> happy bday nealmcb
[18:14]  * sladen grins
[18:15] <Kilos> hip hip
[18:15] <Kilos> i would like to see all the differences sorted out amicably
[18:15] <sgclark> happy birthday !
[18:15] <Kilos> i love kubuntu and use unity too
[18:16] <sladen> nealmcb: have a wonderful day, and I hope the weather is within your preference parameters
[18:16] <sgclark> yes, I am ready for this to be done, so I can work in peace and harmony
[18:16] <sladen> and that the sky near you is either Blue or Orange, or a combination of all colours inbetween
[18:16] <wxl> i love kubuntu and lubuntu and snappy! and unity— on the phone. ;)
[18:17] <Kilos> imo we are a family, and families squabble now and again but still remain family
[18:17] <sgclark> wxl: ever sort out your ubuntu phone?
[18:17] <wxl> sgclark: no. that's one of the things my blog post was waiting on.
[18:17] <sgclark> :(
[18:17] <wxl> yeah, oh well. time to work on a port ;)
[18:17] <sgclark> that is so sad, stealing from a booth..
[18:20] <ahoneybun> wxl: missing your phone?
[18:20] <Kilos> that sucks
[18:22] <wxl> ahoneybun: yeah, tl;dr my ubuntu phone that canonical sent for development, testing, showing off, etc., got stolen from lfnw
[18:22] <ahoneybun> oh no
[18:22] <ahoneybun> wxl: BQ one?
[18:22] <wxl> ahoneybun: oh no, just an old nexus, but still.
[18:23] <ahoneybun> wxl: I have the N4 as well
[18:23] <ahoneybun> I'm sorry to hear that
[18:23] <wxl> i'm not going to cry about it. it is what it is.
[18:24] <wxl> canonical was very nice about the whole thing, but they couldn't promise me another phone. i'm disappointed, but totally 100% understand. i'm thankful for the time i did have with it. so much so, that the porting i mentioned i'm actually serious about.
[18:24] <wxl> ok folks, i gotta jet
[18:25] <wxl> hugs to all :)
[18:25]  * sgclark hugs wxl
[18:25] <Kilos> cheers wxl