bluesabreochosi: I'll have to check it out then... its definitely screwy on my vivid+gtk3.16 box00:54
bluesabrere the greeter, its a known issue, and there is a workaround00:55
ubottuUbuntu bug 1460303 in LightDM GTK+ Greeter "(15.04) lightdm-gtk-greeter-settings configures a white background and ignores my image" [Undecided,New]00:55
Unit193"downgrade" :---D00:55
Unit193You know, it's harder to troll/make comments when the Xubuntu devs are the actual upstream maintainers...00:56
bluesabremaybe I should go ahead and fix it myself00:57
Unit193What about the dialog box flicker?00:57
Unit193Started in 2.0.0 I believe, a bit annoying IMO.00:57
bluesabrehaven't seen a flicker00:59
Unit193I see it in Xubuntu and Debian.01:01
bluesabrewhen does it happen?01:04
Unit193It is the login password prompt, right when typing your password and hitting <Enter>, it'll go away, flash up for a split second, then disappear again.01:06
bluesabrenever noticed that before01:07
bluesabreever file a bug?01:07
Unit193https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=786620 heh.01:13
ubottuDebian bug 786620 in lightdm-gtk-greeter "lightdm-gtk-greeter: Login screen does not display background graphics" [Normal,Open]01:13
bluesabrethat might be the previous image not being cleared on the screen01:16
bluesabrethe "flicker" that is01:16
bluesabreI might be able to fix that01:17
Unit193It's minor, but a bit annoying.01:18
bluesabreI'll also try to fix the background drawing without the workaround01:19
bluesabremight not happen tonight, but I think that's my immediate goal01:19
Unit193Heh, yep.  More annoying.01:20
ochosimorning everyone06:50
ochosibluesabre: maybe you can just post some issues/screenshots of your issues and i'll check what's up with it in wily08:15
ochosilunchtime, babl10:13
Unit193Good plan.11:39
ochosibluesabre: feel free to create a workitem on the lp bp as well11:39
Unit193Oh gosh, two trackers.11:41
Unit193Plus junk/todo.txt :311:41
bluesabreone's easier for comments11:41
Unit193One gets tracked in here, one via my email. :P11:42
YanpasHello everybody! Recently xfce leader  Olivier Fourdan has fixed old annoying bug: tearing of xfwm4 compositor! https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10439 18:01
ubottubugzilla.xfce.org bug 10439 in General "Use GLX for compositing instead of Xrender" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]18:02
YanpasWhat does it mean for Xubuntu? New xfwm4 should be compiled with libepoxy-dev and libepoxy0 should included to Xubuntu18:02
Yanpas15.10 of course18:03
ochosiYanpas: hey. yes we're aware of that and i presume that'll land in wily (if it hasn't yet)18:08
Yanpasgood to hear :)18:12
YanpasAnd what is the status of QT icons support and theme? (In 15.04 QT apps gtk+ theme was fixed by saving qt4-qtconfig file, but it's no the correct way, just temporary workaround, cause both icons and theme work in trusty qithout any config files in user dir). Icons still unsupported. Is it XFCE or Xubuntu problem?18:19
ubottuUbuntu bug 1451993 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "QT apps doesn't have icons from theme" [Undecided,New]18:19
knomeok, so we got first user telling they use chaletos...20:08
drcI saw some discussion the otherday about xubuntu-derivatives...what's the official position, help or no help?20:19
knomeit's not black and white, but if it were, no help20:19
Unit193bluesabre: https://packages.qa.debian.org/e/evince/news/20150624T221919Z.html22:23
ochosiUnit193: oh, no more evince-gtk22:35
ochosiknome: ping22:39
knomeochosi, pong22:41
ochosiyou around for a bit?22:41
knomei guess22:41
ochosimotivated too?22:42
ochosithat sounds more like it22:42
knomeawwh, she exposed me22:42
knomepleia2, tut tut!22:43
* knome hugs pleia222:43
* pleia2 hugs22:43
knomeochosi, so, what's up?22:44
Unit193ochosi: Hopefully it's not needed, but we'll see.22:44
ochosiknome: was just wondering whether you wanna work on some stuff together22:45
ochosibut if you're drinking, i really don't wanna keep you... ;)22:45
knomeicons, likely not22:45
ochosiwell you still owe me the window-close icon for greybird ;)22:46
ochosiwe need that for CSD22:46
knomewait, why do i owe it to you again?22:46
knomenone of the other icons are in svg either!22:46
knomei mean i'm sure that was part of the problem22:47
ochosicause you made the original and we agreed you'd be most fit to redo it in svg ;)22:47
knomeexporting an svg didn't look good22:47
knomei remember doing some pixel pushing22:47
ochosiyeah, but the current icon sucks22:47
ochosieven without making it crispy-crisp, it has to be improved22:47
knomeyou need it in the same size?22:47
knomeand in svg?22:47
ochosii was also considering doing one or two more xfwm4 themes that are greybird-compatible that we can ship22:48
knomewhat does that mean?22:48
ochosifor higher res screens and maybe one with thicker borders so ppl with resize problems can use it22:48
knomeand on the same note, why not the a11y version?22:48
knomethat's it22:48
ochosii'm just listing stuff that i'd be up for22:48
ochosia11y version is too much work22:49
ochosinot exactly an all-nighter22:49
knomebut thicker borders can be a start for that22:49
ochosiwell xfwm4 theme is only a tiny part for an a11y theme anyway22:49
ochosithe real work is elsewhere22:49
* knome shrugs22:49
ochosimostly in gtk222:49
ochosibut also in gtk322:49
ochosimight also just draw some more LO icons, i'm almost done with what i wanted to achieve there anyway22:52
knomeanything else than icon work?22:52
* ochosi goes to check the blueprints22:54
knomewe have the derivative guideline work22:54
knomeand we might get pleia2 to help22:54
ochosiyeah, could also do that22:54
knomeas you see in the pad, i've went through some of the derivatives22:56
knomeand checked how they've done with our guidelines22:56
knomewell, the WIP guidelines22:56
knomebasically voyager is the only one very clearly breaking the rules22:56
knomelin4neuro is another that pretty much looks xubuntu with a different app selection22:57
ochosiso what is it you wanna do right now, wanna contact the most problematic ones?22:58
ochosior do you want to finalize/publish the guidelines somewhere first?22:58
knomeprobably finalize them22:58
knomeand get the rest of the derivatives checked22:58
knomeand do a bit more research on derivatives22:58
knomeeg. to see if we've missed some still22:59
ochosisounds a bit boring considering the hour22:59
knomeafter that, i'd like to discuss with some kind of group what to do with the derivatives that are clearly breaking the rules22:59
ochosibut ok22:59
ochosii guess we oughta get in touch with them22:59
knomeanother thing we need to cover on the guidelines is derivatives for home or very private use23:00
ochosido we need any for that usecase?23:00
knomethere was a question on the -devel queue about using a modified xubuntu system on a small office23:00
knomefor like 3 people23:00
knome(i replied them)23:00
knomewell it's probably good to mention that it is ok to modify xubuntu for personal/private use as long as it isn't distributed publicly23:01
ochosiright, i don't see any problem with private use23:01
pleia2this is a good document23:01
ochosithat's a sentence we can add in23:01
pleia2knome: I know you had asked about money/donations whatever, but I'm inclined to ignore it entirely here and handle it privately on a case by case basis23:01
pleia2since they really do just need to chat with canonical legal23:01
knomepleia2, thing is, many of these derivatives ask for donations23:02
knomei'm wondering what we could do23:02
pleia2not my job23:02
knomeone of the options i have been thinking is to ask them to consider tipping the community tip jar back23:02
knomeeven if that doesn't explicitly mean *we* get the money back23:03
ochosiyeah, i'm not sure that's really something i wanna get too involved in though23:03
pleia2one of the things support from canonical gets us is lawyers, I don't care but it's not my repos/direct resources they're leveraging and slapping their own name on23:03
knomethat's another thing we should discuss23:03
knomewell, or not23:03
knomebasically, pretty much all of these are using ubuntu repositories23:04
pleia2again, I don't really care and don't want to get involved23:05
knomeme neither23:05
knomebut it's good to ack that23:05
pleia2if they ask, we'll point them to canonical, but I don't want to initiate the discussion23:05
knomethey likely won't ask23:05
pleia2if canonical has a problem with it, they'll let them know23:05
knomeand they likely won't ;)23:06
pleia2pretty much23:06
ochosii'd rather not invest time/effort into "hunting folks down" for little/no obvious benefit23:06
knomeyeah, that's not our point23:06
ochosiideally yeah, they'd contribute back23:06
ochosibut they could've done so in the first place23:07
ochosipersonally, the approach i prefer is sending out this questionnaire23:07
pleia2I think the point is having a complete document here for derivatives, but I'd rather just ignore it23:07
ochosithat might get us somewhere and it's basically already there, so not too much energy has to go into sending it out etc23:07
knomethe complete document is the main point23:07
knomethe questionnaire is to try to start some communication23:08
knomepeople can't really lie to us23:08
pleia2yay communicatino23:08
knomethey can't tell they don't point people to our support outlets if they use our slideshow23:08
ochosipleia2: is that spanish for "communication"? :]23:08
knomewell they can, but we can call them out23:08
pleia2ochosi: har, I haven't even had beer yet!23:08
ochosipleia2: that's not my fault!23:09
ochosiknome: true, i guess for most you've done the necessary research already23:09
knomefor some of the derivatives, yeah23:09
knomewe still have a bunch to go23:10
ochosibut doing that research is just really boring and i wonder where it'll get us if we don't act on it23:10
knomeit likely is somewhat in vain23:10
knomebut i don't think it's bad to know what people do with xubuntu either23:11
ochosi(i mean, maybe not the most boring thing i can imagine, since it's interesting to know... then again, i can imagine more constructive things to do)23:11
knomefor example, pretty much all derivatives use the whisker menu23:11
knomeso using it is likely a good idea23:11
knomeor at least something the derivatives agree on23:11
ochosiright, we got no complaints about that one23:12
ochosiat least none that i heard/red23:12
knomethere is that one list too23:13
knome"Packages with Xubuntu branding"23:13
knomei need some insight to that from you/sean23:13
knomeand Unit193 of course23:14
knomeochosi, remeber that we practically tell them to not use the *name* xubuntu either, so it needs to be a nasty purge :>23:14
knomeso, onto specific problems....23:15
knome1) voyager uses our installer slideshow; this is something i wouldn't give rope on - it needs to go23:16
knome2) uxubos (http://sourceforge.net/projects/uxubos/) is problematic on several levels23:16
knomeit claims to be a "respin" (which isn't a good/supported term) and implies to be "up-to-date"23:17
knomethe latter can be interpreted as "xubuntu isn't up-to-date (or safe)"23:17
knomeit also uses the xubuntu branding without the slightest intention to hide it23:17
knomeand the long-version name "updated xubuntu os" is against the trademark laws23:18
knomeif you asked me, i would rather just ask the person running it to stop doing it completely23:18
knomebut of course they can keep on doing it - under a different name and with no xubuntu branding23:19
Unit193There's a few stray icons, I'd put them in the 'meta' xubuntu-artwork.  You also mentioned xubuntu-docs, I don't like the restriction personally on this even though it does have a lot of Xubuntu related stuff, it's valid for basic respinds.23:19
knome3) security onion (http://securityonion.net/) is basically a PPA for ubuntu23:19
knomei would be in touch with them and discuss if they really want to go on distributing an ISO23:20
knomebecause then we could - based on our guidelines - likely support the core part of the OS23:21
knomejust not the PPA23:21
knomeUnit193, if you are really interested in being very kind to derivatives, we should 1) separate the startpage to another package 2) make sure the documentation doesn't have any mentions to xubuntu and 3) provide the logo from another package and link to it23:22
knomemy personal opinion is that shipping the xubuntu documentation isn't a huge problem23:23
knomeshipping the startpage is23:23
ochosihumm, i think i'm with pleia2 on this one, i'd rather ignore the derivatives. so far none of them has posed a real problem. as soon as they flood our support ML or channel, i'd probably reconsider. but for now i just see too little incentive (or maybe i'm just tired)23:23
knomeochosi, with what exactly? you both said the last thing 15 minutes ago23:24
knomeochosi, i think she was referring to using canonical/ubuntu repositories and asking for donations23:24
pleia2no, I'm not interested in going after them in general23:24
knomeusing the repositories won't be a problem to us - ever23:24
pleia2we should ask them to stop things that actively cause us problems, like using our support resources23:25
ochosiwell, even following up with derivatives - even with problematic ones like voyager - is what i meant23:25
drcAnd what will you(all) do if you do not ignore them and one/any of them tell you to FOAD?23:25
knomei've seen enough support questions from voyager people to start to get annoying23:25
knomepleia2, ++23:25
pleia2but I won't go on a hunt for people using our logos, because eh23:25
ochosithat's ok, we can tell voyager to stop pointing at our support resources23:26
pleia2we will officially ask them not to on our page, so they will know they're breaking rules (I think they're just unaware)23:26
knomepleia2, we'll see...23:26
Unit193pleia2: Like all the annoying French voyager users that join #xubuntu...23:26
pleia2Unit193: yes, that's really disruptive to us23:26
knomedrc, you know i don't like that kind of language on this channel.23:26
Unit193"Ask nicer"?23:27
drcmy appoligies.23:27
Unit193That is, to ask them nicer? :P23:27
drcthe question remains.23:27
knomeanyway, things we need to tackle (imo) are voyager, uxubos (updated xubuntu os) and that weird "xubuntu piqo edition"23:28
knomeno, i don't think they can say "xubuntu" on the derivative name, that's a bit too far (yeah, it isn't too hard to not do that...)23:28
pleia2I don't really have the energy for the latter 223:28
knomewho said you should? :)23:29
knomei can handle that23:29
knomeand when i say handle, i don't mean i'll pester them night and day until they stop doing that23:29
pleia2heh, ok23:29
knomei mean just asking them and pointing out that they really shouldn't do that23:29
knomeand "here's the derivative guideline document"23:29
knomedrc, ^ does that answer your question?23:30
knomebut seriously,23:30
drcyes, but what if they continue to ignore it/you?  23:30
drcAnd I am serious.23:31
knomeeven the voyager questions might be more okay on our channel if we actively communicated with the voyager developer(s) about what they are changing in xubuntu etc23:31
drcWhat I'm getting at is you have only one option...sic the lawyers on them....have you cleared this with the lawyers yet?23:31
knomei don't know, but it isn't out of question to poke the canonical legal dept.23:31
pleia2except in the case of voyager using our support resources, I'd just let the rest go23:32
knomewe don't need to clear this with the lawyers - canonical owns the trademark "xubuntu" and legally, they need to defend their trademarks23:32
knomepleia2, sure, i was referring to those who mention xubuntu in the OS name23:32
drcbut will they, that's what I'm asking?23:32
pleia2we can contact them, explain the rules, and live our life23:32
knomewell that's constructive23:33
knomeyeah, whether canonical legal will or won't do something isn't to my interest23:33
knomedrc, whether canonical legal will or won't do something isn't to my interest23:34
knomebut from a common sense point of view, if i was a derivative developer, i'd think twice changing the derivative name if somebody said they'll notice a legal department about a potential trademark breach23:35
knomeand no, my intention isn't to scare derivatives off23:36
knomei'd like their developers to hang out on this channel (and be active enough that we knew who they were)23:36
Unit193Wait, so they can't say "derivative of Xubuntu"? 0_o23:38
knomethey can.23:38
Unit193So, I read what you said wrong then.23:38
knomebut the derivative name can't be "Xubuntu Piqo Edition" (for example)23:38
knomenor can they say (or imply) that they are a respin or any other official variant of xubuntu23:39
knomewhich is what uxubos and voyager might be doing23:39
knomeuxubos because what they tell they are (and the name) and voyager, because they use our installer slideshow which says "welcome to xubuntu"23:39
knomecompare the latter to the documentation, which says "welcome to xubuntu xx.xx documentation"23:40
ochosisry folks, i'm out. too tired, need to get some sleep23:41
pleia2night ochosi 23:41
knomenighty ochosi 23:41
knomeand the guidelines do say that we try to make removing the branding easy too23:43
knomewhich is what we should try to do23:43
knomeit's not like we're deliverately hiding xubuntu icons in every possible package23:43

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