[03:59] <lotuspsychje> good morning to all
[04:03] <lotuspsychje> http://news.softpedia.com/news/will-i-have-the-latest-software-versions-in-ubuntu-with-snappy-485490.shtml
[06:03] <ObrienDave> *waves*
[08:57] <lotuspsychje> EriC^^: good morning
[08:57] <EriC^^> morning lotuspsychje
[08:58] <lotuspsychje> how r u mate
[08:58] <EriC^^> great you?
[08:58] <lotuspsychje> fine tnx, sunny weather
[08:58] <EriC^^> cool
[08:58] <lotuspsychje> and later on coffee chat with friends n pies
[08:58] <EriC^^> yummy
[08:59] <EriC^^> pies.. *homer simpson drool*
[08:59] <lotuspsychje> lol
[08:59] <EriC^^> :P
[09:05] <lotuspsychje> seems like #ubuntu-women is filled with mostly men :p
[09:08] <EriC^^> lol
[09:09] <TJ-> Morning (belatedly)
[09:09] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: good day sir
[09:09] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: hows your project going?
[09:09] <TJ-> Are you sure ... could be Madam :D
[09:09] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: excuse me mylady :p
[09:10] <TJ-> It worked last night on top of Linux v4.1 ... then this morning I noticed that the v4.2 merge window has moved the loop device workqueue from the driver to per-loop ... which stopped my patches doing anything useful... refactoring them now :)
[09:10] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: never saw a girl, that trying to 4K sectors before :p
[09:10]  * TJ- tuts
[09:12] <lotuspsychje> http://news.softpedia.com/news/will-i-have-the-latest-software-versions-in-ubuntu-with-snappy-485490.shtml
[09:12] <lotuspsychje> i wonder how that will turn out
[09:14] <lotuspsychje> tintedwindows: welcome
[09:15] <tintedwindows> thanks good to be here, Ubuntu is my fave
[09:15] <lotuspsychje> tintedwindows: what do you like about ubuntu?
[09:15] <TJ-> If snappy requires Unity 8, Canonical are going to loose developer input
[09:16] <tintedwindows> i love the control of ubuntu and the configuration you have is just so much better than main stream operating systems.
[09:16] <lotuspsychje> tintedwindows: wich version are you on?
[09:17] <TJ-> Over my time working with Ubuntu (since 2005) I've come to distrust the way Canonical internalise supposedly 'community' development teams and stands, locking out any input from developers. Very walled garden, take-it-or-leave-it
[09:17] <tintedwindows> 15.04, you?
[09:18] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: the same way shuttleworth had to appologize that unity was a mistake?
[09:18] <TJ-> EriC^^: can you remind me of that pipe you use to termbin ?
[09:18] <lotuspsychje> tintedwindows: 14.04.2 64bit
[09:18] <EriC^^> TJ-: nc termbin.com 9999
[09:19] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: Across so many key parts... it always struck me as Shuttleworth's frustration with the community approach. I know it makes it uncomfortable for many Debian developers who are employed by Canonical and find themselves compromised by it
[09:19] <TJ-> EriC^^: ha! yeah, it is so simple I couldn't recall it :)
[09:21] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: my first unity frustration was the dock at left side, always loved gnome bottom dock
[09:21] <TJ-> Canonical's attitude is in many ways similar to Google's ... very touchy about keeping things private and internal
[09:21] <tintedwindows> i would like to know who isn't 64 bit here?  lol is anyone running some old stack 32 bit?
[09:21] <lotuspsychje> tintedwindows: your on 32bit?
[09:22] <TJ-> I gave up on mainstream Ubuntu GUI when it switched to Unity and Gnome messed up v2 - switched to KDE here and it is the only GUI that works for my requirements
[09:22] <tintedwindows> you can get unity-tweak-tool
[09:22] <Hobbet1> i am running a xpc pentium 4 with 2 gigs of memory
[09:22] <lotuspsychje> Hobbet1: wich ubuntu on it?
[09:22] <Hobbet1> lubuntu
[09:22] <lotuspsychje> cool
[09:22] <tintedwindows> that is cool
[09:23] <tintedwindows> you should put a rambo sticker on the side of it
[09:23] <Hobbet1> and it runs just fin i am on opera with 7 tabs open
[09:23] <Hobbet1> lol
[09:23] <tintedwindows> gtg nice chatting
[09:24] <lotuspsychje> Hobbet1: i like chromium better then opera
[09:25] <Hobbet1> i only use opera for the  irc chat, i can adjust the text to make it bigger easier on my eyes
[09:25] <TJ-> I have notebooks I bought in 2002 still in use with 384MB of RAM
[09:26] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: running ubuntu on them also
[09:26] <TJ-> Yes, with my own kernel builds (non-PAE) and stripped down to the essentials
[09:27] <lotuspsychje> cool
[09:29] <lotuspsychje> !info gdisk
[09:36] <lordievader> Good morning.
[09:36] <lotuspsychje> lordievader: hi mate
[09:36] <lotuspsychje> all ok?
[09:37] <lordievader> Hey lotuspsychje, doing ok here. How are you?
[09:37] <lotuspsychje> fine tnx, sunny outside
[09:38] <lotuspsychje> and a heated week comming upon us
[09:38] <lotuspsychje> 30+
[09:38] <lordievader> Yeah.... -.-
[09:45] <lordievader> Time to mistreat a VM with Java.
[09:54] <lotuspsychje> scary silent in #ubuntu on sundays
[09:54] <Hobbet1> is this room pretty active?
[09:55] <lotuspsychje> Hobbet1: at some times very, its timzeone related i guess
[09:55] <Hobbet1> well i am in phx, az its 3am here lol
[09:55] <lotuspsychje> 11h55 here
[09:57] <Hobbet1> how long have you been using ubuntu
[10:01] <lordievader> What is the bare minimum of packages you need to run X?
[10:01] <lordievader> Meh, nevermind...
[10:02] <lordievader> xserver-xorg selects a bunch.
[10:02] <TJ-> lordievader: You want to support headless Java?
[10:03] <lordievader> Headless Java works, but this thing I'm trying to do requires a gui...
[10:03] <lotuspsychje> Hobbet1: replaced windows for ubuntu years ago
[10:03] <lordievader> I'm messing with MaryTTS again, to install extra voices you need X -.-
[10:03] <TJ-> lordievader: OK ... when you mentioned VM I wondered if you were creating a headless install
[10:06] <Hobbet1> lotuspsychje I still havent complete stepped away from windows because there are something i cant do without it, i just found out how to get amazon instant video to work on ubuntu
[10:07] <lordievader> TJ-: It should be headless. Using VNC for the moment to get this done.
[10:10] <Johnny_Linux> shoot
[10:11] <lotuspsychje> Johnny_Linux: welcome
[10:11] <Johnny_Linux> mornin
[10:11] <lotuspsychje> Johnny_Linux: we have gathered most active supporters here
[10:11] <Johnny_Linux> cool, thanks
[10:11] <lotuspsychje> Johnny_Linux: we do alot of support, and never have the chance to talk 2 each other
[10:11] <Johnny_Linux> i see that
[10:12] <Johnny_Linux> i just booted, going for  coffee
[10:12] <lotuspsychje> Johnny_Linux: okay cheers!
[10:13] <lotuspsychje> !cookie | Johnny_Linux to dip in your coffee
[10:13] <Hobbet1> i wish i drank coffee, i guess my soda will have to do lol
[10:13] <lotuspsychje> Hobbet1: what do you still need in windows?
[10:13] <TJ-> Everyone still needs Windows
[10:13] <lotuspsychje> i dont :p
[10:14] <TJ-> ... to remind them how good Linux is
[10:14] <lotuspsychje> haha
[10:14] <lotuspsychje> +1
[10:14] <TJ-> Gotchya! :)
[10:14] <lordievader> I use it for Lightroom.
[10:14] <lotuspsychje> lordievader: wasnt there a linux alternative for that yet?
[10:15] <lordievader> There was, but I never checked it out. I quite like Lightroom.
[10:15] <Hobbet1> work stuff for the fiancee she needs it so i dual boot the laptop but for myself since i found that amazon thing i dont really need windows and we can do netflix on ubuntu i hear with google chrome
[10:17] <lotuspsychje> !info darktable
[10:20] <TJ-> I only use Windows in VM, and that's to use Internet Explorer to manage some so-called 'intelligent' managed switches that have web interfaces that break with all modern HTML/ECMAscript-compliant browsers, such as my Netgear GS748TP.
[10:23] <Hobbet1> i told my better half that i was going to challenge her , i was going to make her use ubuntu for a week without windows and see how she likes it
[10:24] <lotuspsychje> Hobbet1: give her cool packages to make her life easy
[10:24] <lotuspsychje> !info cycle | Hobbet1
[10:26] <Hobbet1> cool any other recommendations i just installed cycle
[10:28] <lordievader> My Windows can be used as a VM is performance isn't critical. It can also be dual booted :D
[10:28] <lotuspsychje> Hobbet1: telegram for ubuntu desktop can be interesting aswell
[10:29] <lotuspsychje> Hobbet1: to chat from ubuntu to your wife on smartphone example
[10:33] <Hobbet1> sorry lotuspsychje that was an accident honest
[10:33] <lotuspsychje> Hobbet1: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2014/05/telegram-whatsapp-rival-web-app-ubuntu
[10:38] <TJ-> Telegrams are *so* 19th century ... personally I prefer hand delivery :)
[10:39] <lotuspsychje> lol
[10:40] <Hobbet1> cool thank you
[10:41] <lotuspsychje> Hobbet1: what else does your wife use windows for?
[10:41] <Hobbet1> she uses familytree maker but i am going to have her try gramps
[10:42] <lotuspsychje> !info gramps
[10:42] <lotuspsychje> nice
[10:42] <lotuspsychje> never heard of this one b4
[10:43] <Hobbet1> she watches hulu, but since i figured out how to watch amazon that is taken care of
[10:45] <Hobbet1> she playes games on facebook so that is taken care of with google chrome, i will probably install like mahjong and tetris games for her
[10:47] <EriC^^> TJ-: this works /usr/bin/dbus-send --system --print-reply --dest="org.freedesktop.ConsoleKit" /org/freedesktop/ConsoleKit/Manager org.freedesktop.ConsoleKit.Manager.Stop
[10:47] <EriC^^> i don't remember it being that command though
[10:48] <TJ-> EriC^^: bloody 'ell !!
[10:48] <TJ-> Good luck giving that to someone :D
[10:48] <EriC^^> lol
[10:48] <TJ-> EriC^^: this works: *flips big OFF button*
[10:49] <EriC^^> lol
[10:49] <EriC^^> he wants it for a script though
[10:49] <Hobbet1> lotuspsychje i personally dont like  unity that much so i will probably install cairo dock for her to make transition a little easier
[10:50] <EriC^^> so i guess he won't mind it being so long
[10:50] <lotuspsychje> Hobbet1: you can use docky too for lightweight feeling
[10:50] <lotuspsychje> !info docky | Hobbet1
[10:51] <TJ-> I very much prefer KDE to Gnome or Unity
[10:51] <Hobbet1> hmm didnt know about that one
[10:52] <lotuspsychje> im pretty used to unity myself now
[10:52] <lordievader> TJ-: KDE \o/
[10:52] <lotuspsychje> its pretty intuitive even for older users
[10:52] <TJ-> You should try Unity (or Gnome) on 6 HD monitors!
[10:52] <TJ-> It's more than anightmare
[10:53] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: the average user, is not like you multitasking 4K :p
[10:54] <TJ-> That's not the point; the point is, if as a developer you change a key part of the stack (the GUI) then you do *not* introduce major regressions. That's what Unity and Gnome 3 did
[10:55] <TJ-> I'd sack any of my dev's if they did that. Rather like Linus's "You do NOT break userspace" mantra
[10:55] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: will mir fix that in the future?
[10:56] <TJ-> wayland is a step back for multi GPU multi monitor styup so far.
[10:56] <TJ-> Mir is the same ... targeted at the phone/tablet brigade
[10:56] <lotuspsychje> right
[10:57] <TJ-> Canonical's projects are driven by the need to find money-pots to fund the company and that is in the ODM/OEM/Cloud space, not in workstations
[10:58] <Hobbet1> can somebody please tell me the transitioning to a tablet from a leptop is, if your just going to add a keyboard to it
[10:58] <TJ-> And that is why many key developers have left of backed off their involvement in Ubuntu as a project. The recent issue between the CC and Jonathan Riddell made a lot of devs sit up and reevaluate supporting Ubuntu
[11:11] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: this is reall all getting complicated.. i wish they left the choice to the end user
[11:11]  * TJ- nods
[11:11] <TJ-> I'm moving more towards Debian now
[11:12] <lotuspsychje> more freedom?
[11:12] <TJ-> Openness
[11:13] <TJ-> I don't like decisions made in private without consultation that change project objectives ... Ubuntu has a Dictator... that's not really compatible with the ethos
[11:13] <lotuspsychje> i agree on that for sure
[11:14] <lotuspsychje> but still i like ubuntu's ease to install/use
[11:14] <TJ-> The reason upstart failed was it was an internal Canonical project imposed, rather than seeking design input and developers across the Linux community
[11:14] <lotuspsychje> and now all moving to systemd again..
[11:14] <TJ-> I don't see much difference in ease-of-use ... I like Debian for its packaging system
[11:14] <lotuspsychje> well its been long ive tested debian
[11:15] <TJ-> I chose to develop for Ubuntu originally because its development and release tempo was more suited to my aims
[11:16] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: so whats your 'feeling' about ubuntu touch conker the world with smartphones?
[11:17] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: It'll pass away the same as other Canonical money-making projects. Without critical mass these projects lose money
[11:17] <TJ-> The release tempo on smartphones is even more intense than for 'regular' Linux distros; that requires costly engineering resources permanently assigned
[11:18] <lotuspsychje> well i rather have ubuntu on a device, then malware nightmare android..
[11:18] <TJ-> What malware? I mainly use Cyanogen mod which I can build from source if needed
[11:19] <TJ-> Android's security model is very good in terms of applications isolation
[11:19] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: android is very unsecure
[11:19] <lotuspsychje> and play store full of dangerous apps
[11:19] <Hobbet1> thanks for letting me know i have android phones lol
[11:19] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: I diagree. Android uses SELinux MAC
[11:20] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: An app isn't dangerous if you don't install it!
[11:20] <TJ-> https://source.android.com/devices/tech/security/selinux/index.html
[11:20] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: yeah but this is the real world mate, everyone uses pc banking on android
[11:20] <lotuspsychje> and its a danger!
[11:21] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: Show me technical evidence not inuendo.
[11:21] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: the internet leaks with android security/malware issues
[11:22] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: same for Ios
[11:22] <lordievader> What?
[11:22] <lordievader> Where did you get that idea?
[11:23] <Daekdroom> They are app security issues.
[11:23] <lotuspsychje> anyone wants stolen pics from iphones/android?
[11:23] <lotuspsychje> =insecure
[11:23] <Daekdroom> They can plague whatever mobile OS lets 3rd party develop apps.
[11:24] <lotuspsychje> Daekdroom: try to break security on ubuntu touch
[11:25] <Daekdroom> lotuspsychje, whatever issues there were with Android apps that allowed people to sniff website passwords through WiFi wasn't an Android security breach at all, but poor app design
[11:25] <Daekdroom> The same thing can happen with Ubuntu Touch once it develops an app ecosystem
[11:25] <lordievader> lotuspsychje: An application can only get acces to photos when the user permitted the application to do so. If the application cannot handle that privilege how is the OS then insecure?
[11:25] <lotuspsychje> if poor apps can infiltrate an Os..
[11:25] <lordievader> It is the user trusting the application.
[11:25] <Daekdroom> It's not infiltration.
[11:26] <Daekdroom> You install an app, you guarantee certain permissions to it.
[11:26] <Daekdroom> But some people never bother with what the permissions might mean in the first place.
[11:26] <Daekdroom> And transmitting passwords over insecure HTTP is something that can happen in any platform.
[11:26] <Daekdroom> (i.e. it's a danger to internet usage, plain and simple)
[11:27] <lordievader> lotuspsychje: Does Ubuntu touch use apparmor too?
[11:27] <lotuspsychje> lordievader: not sure
[11:28] <Johnny_Linux> just a side note, selinux was created by our loving NSA
[11:28] <lordievader> True, and from what I have heared they done a good job.
[11:29] <Johnny_Linux> especially with the windows back doors
[11:29] <TJ-> You have to remember also that SDCard storage, where many large-data applications store user data, is not protected by application separation
[11:29] <lordievader> The only reason I am not using it is the stories I heared about SELinux made me feel like it was a PITA.
[11:30] <TJ-> Johnny_Linux: And has had very extensive workouts over a long period, and is one of several alternative MACs in the Linux kernel
[11:31] <lotuspsychje> the whole world is one big botnet of androids, pc's, servers
[11:31] <lotuspsychje> security is a big joke
[11:32] <Johnny_Linux> agreed
[11:32] <lordievader> What are you talking about? O.o
[11:32] <lordievader> lotuspsychje: Are you trolling?
[11:32] <lotuspsychje> many admins have no idea their servers are h4cked and are to proud to investigate
[11:33] <lotuspsychje> lordievader: im not, its the truth
[11:33] <lordievader> Right...
[11:33]  * lordievader goes back to coding
[11:33] <TJ-> I'd take SELinux over AppArmor any day. AppArmor is path-based whereas SE can attach to processes as well as files
[11:34] <lotuspsychje> rbots,sqlscanners,vnc,webstores,drupal,windows servers,rootkits..the whole world
[11:34] <lotuspsychje> and mobiles
[11:35] <Johnny_Linux> and smart meters
[11:35] <lotuspsychje> and all the 0day exploits, nobody still know..
[11:35] <TJ-> Better turn the PC off now, then!
[11:35] <Johnny_Linux> mine is solar powered
[11:35] <lotuspsychje> haha
[11:35] <TJ-> Or simply stop using insecure network connected programs
[11:36] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: can we tell that to the average user?
[11:36] <TJ-> Sure
[11:36] <lotuspsychje> using unsecure windows and android
[11:37] <TJ-> They have free choice ... and convenience usually wins out... just look at how people have flocked to Facebook
[11:37] <lotuspsychje> true
[11:37] <Johnny_Linux> and mark caled them all suckers
[11:37] <lotuspsychje> another exploit nightmare Fb
[11:38] <Johnny_Linux> facebook is a cia exploit
[11:38] <lotuspsychje> fb, skype,..
[11:38] <Johnny_Linux> magically thier stocked bloomed with no product, over nite
[11:38] <Johnny_Linux> stock
[11:38] <TJ-> People generally are not interested in preventative measures over convenience... until they get bitten by, for example, their personal identity data being compromised, or their PC getting locked by ransomware
[11:39] <lotuspsychje> how many ppl got money stolen over pc banking by romanian hackers?
[11:39] <lotuspsychje> millions
[11:40] <TJ-> Please, they're CRACKERS not Hackers. I'm a hacker, and I take exception to the misuse of the term for journalistic hype
[11:40] <lotuspsychje> under the hood of internet its a warzone, you all have to admit right
[11:40]  * lotuspsychje gives TJ- a whitehat :p
[11:41] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: All technology has been weaponised, since the invention of the flint knife
[11:41] <lotuspsychje> true
[11:41] <lotuspsychje> anyway ill rest my case and go into the sun :p
[11:41] <lotuspsychje> see you next debate lol
[11:42] <lotuspsychje> have a good sunday!
[11:44] <lordievader> TJ-: Do you watch Hak5?
[11:44] <TJ-> What's that?
[11:45] <lordievader> A tech show for hackers: http://hak5.org/
[11:45] <lordievader> I quite like it.
[11:45] <TJ-> I rarely touch TV or video ... too low a Shannon information content :)
[11:46] <TJ-> I prefer short succinct accurate text ... video just makes me want to get up and go do something useful :)
[11:46] <lordievader> Hehe, to each his own ;)
[11:51] <Hobbet1> Hak5 is a cool show, alsow category5 is a linux show also
[11:51] <Hobbet1> same with linux action show
[13:03] <BluesKaj> Hi folks
[14:29] <daftykins> o/
[14:37] <BluesKaj> hi daftykins
[14:37] <daftykins> g'day
[14:38] <daftykins> sad times for spacex, seems a lauch just blew up
[14:38] <BluesKaj> not again :/
[15:07] <daftykins> mmhmm
[19:14] <TJ-> Earlier I was helping a user that had managed to delete all the system shell packages from the system and was stuck with just the running BASH instance. As a result most commands could not be executed and I spent some time trying to find a way using only BASH internals to execute a command. There were 2 problems: 1) being able to list files in directories in the absence of 'ls' and 2) being able to execute a binary
[19:16] <TJ-> oh, and 3) not being able to use 'cat' to view file internals
[19:17] <TJ-> 1) is solved with the simple "for f in /some/path/*; do echo $f; done"
[19:17] <TJ-> 3) is solved with "while read line; do echo "$line"; done </path/to/file"
[19:17] <TJ-> 2) is solved by using 3) to find ld-linux.so, the library that executes commands
[19:19] <TJ-> It involves reading the contents of "/proc/self/maps" and parsing out the entries for ld-<version>*.so
[19:20] <TJ-> reduced into a single line that sets a variable it is:
[19:20] <TJ-> export EXEC=$(while read line; do A=${line/#*  /}; B=${A/#*ld-*\.so/YES}; [ "$B" == "YES" ] && echo $A && break; done </proc/self/maps)
[19:20] <TJ-> now any system executable can be launched with: $EXEC /absolute/path/to/executable
[19:22] <Bashing-om> TJ-: Now that shows such a deep comprehension of the operating system . I just love it .
[19:22] <TJ-> necessity is the mother of invention... and the father of "man bash" !!!
[19:23] <TJ-> maybe something to add to your emergency toolkit
[19:28] <daftykins> see i'd have just had them boot a live session and chroot
[19:28] <daftykins> why waste effort ;)
[19:28] <BluesKaj_> hmm, looks like greek to me :-) , but most of those commands containing non alphabet characters might as well be a foreign language
[19:28] <daftykins> impressive, though
[19:31] <TJ-> daftykins: not always possible
[19:31] <daftykins> maybe, but if someone's doing this stuff in a server context (only one where they couldn't that i can think of) then they're grade A fools :)
[19:32] <TJ-> daftykins: if files have been unlinked (e.g. with rm -rf *) but some running process is maintaining an open file handle to them, then the only way to save those files is to access the owner-process's /proc/$PID/fd/<number> and copy it back into the file
[19:33] <TJ-> daftykins: Think: database files for example :)
[19:33] <daftykins> you didn't mention them having open data
[19:34] <daftykins> i don't really follow that though
[19:34] <daftykins> so how did this user manage to screw up so badly?
[19:34] <TJ-> I'm generalising as to how this kind of tooling can save the day
[19:34] <daftykins> ah, yeah but that just stretches to justify your point
[19:35] <TJ-> The user was using Slackware and somehow the package manager somehow got its dependency graph wrong and decided to remove many key packages during what was supposed to be a routine package upgrade
[19:35] <daftykins> ouch
[19:35] <daftykins> that's a BAD package manager *smacks*
[19:37] <TJ-> daftykins: No it doesn't, I've used this construct in the distant past to save servers. They didn't lose the shells, but I had to use ld-linux.so to execute due to some corruption in the file-systems, and of course ld-linux.so was in-memory and therefor could be relied on when launching any further shells couldn't be
[19:41] <daftykins> maybe i just don't understand well enough :) seems an awful lot of hassle
[19:43] <TJ-> It can be but sometimes knowing this is possible can save the day. I was intrigued as to whether it was possible to achieve it from a single in-memory shell without recourse to any external utilities
[19:46] <daftykins> :D
[19:46] <TJ-> mentioning it here, I know I can always find it again via the IRC logs :)
[20:28] <daftykins> you mean you don't keep an engineers log book? :D
[20:37] <TJ-> I keep a Wiki but I forget where in it I save things :)
[20:59] <JanC> hehe
[21:00] <JanC> wiki's search not working well?  :)