rick_h_bwuhahahaha, waterproof camera arrival. You'll all get a lot more pics of the fish catch now!13:47
jrwrenwaterproof but not underwater? do you dislike phone cameras?13:54
rick_h_I don't trust my phone in a kayak out in the open13:55
rick_h_this thing has a floating strap and can be submerged floating while I fish it out of the lake if I drop it13:55
jrwrenah, cool!13:55
rick_h_paying full price for cell phones makes you a little bit more cautious about where you stick it :)13:56
devinheitmuellerI don’t know if you’re interested but Lennart Poettering did a systemd talk last night here at NYLUG.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDHTcB63NXs&feature=youtu.be13:57
devinheitmuellerMight be worth Scott taking a look prior to MUG’s talk on July 14th to see if he wants to steal any materials.  :-)13:58
jrwrenfull price? You mean like $599 instead of free or $99 ?14:00
jrwrenwho does that? :)14:00
cmaloneyGood morning pt. 214:09
cmaloneydevinheitmueller: Thanks for the link14:10
devinheitmuellernp.  Hope it helps.14:10
jrwren2h40m. anyone got a summary?14:12
cmaloney"Hi, I'm Lennart and I wrote systemd. Here's why it's awesome"14:13
devinheitmuellerI think the video was a livestream so it started before the actual talk.  Hence you can likely fast forward through the parts where people are just standing around drinking beer and finding their seats.14:13
devinheitmuellerI’ve personally had some unpleasant exchanges with Lennart in the past, and I have to say though that I was actually pretty impressed.14:14
devinheitmuellerHaving some background behind the motivation behind some of the design decisions, and why they just didn’t extend Upstart was pretty useful.  I came out of it feeling less like there’s a consipiracy for systemd to take over the world.14:16
cmaloneyYeah, same with pulseaudio14:22
cmaloneythere's some good thinking in there.14:22
jrwrenall that is in the systemd FAQ. I read it, and was no longer anti-systemd14:23
jrwrenerr, not faq, but this: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html14:24
devinheitmuellerI think for many it was just a huge shift from the traditional sysvinit thinking (and there is lots of added complexity with any parallel init system).  Hence I can appreciate people trying systemd, running into to some case where it didn’t behave the way they would have expected, and then been bewildered with the process of debugging what went wrong.14:25
jrwreni never understood what "traditional sysvinit thinking" was. There was always init pid 1 and it did whatever it did. That changed a lot over the years.14:25
devinheitmuellerPlus many were/are irked by systemd’s importing of functionality that was previously done by standalone processes (udev, networking, etc).  That said, I came out of the talk appreciating that there was some pretty good rationale for some of these decision.14:26
jrwrenMaybe because I admined BSD for years along with linux, I was thinking about things differently? I don't know.14:26
devinheitmuellerI think many are still of the mindset where they think about runlevels and linear startup (i.e. init scripts running in order).  Plus it was relatively easy to hack an existing init script to add debugging when things didn’t do what you expected.14:27
jrwrencould be.14:27
jrwrenit hasn't been that way for many years.14:27
devinheitmuellerWho hasn’t jammed “set -x” into the top of an init script so they could see what it was doing at boot?  That sort of thing can be harder with systemd.14:28
jrwrenupstart has been in ubuntu for 4+yrs, right?14:28
jrwrenand upstart was in at least 1 debian release.14:28
jrwrenand iirc upstart was in a rhel release and a few fedora releases.14:28
jrwrenit has been harder with upstart just the same :)14:28
devinheitmuellerI think upstart better preserved some of the older conventions though by being able to run things like the existing “service” commands and reliance on shell scripts for the actual business logic.14:29
devinheitmuellerSome of this is certainly a comfort issue.  People get set in their ways and learn a subset of commands they use regularly, and then along comes this thing that is totally different and requires to you learn a whole new set of commands to manage.14:29
jrwrenyou are wrong on teh second point.14:30
devinheitmuellerAm I?14:30
jrwrenon teh first point, yes, making service _ start/stop work is great.14:30
jrwrendevinheitmueller: yes, there is fallback to /etc/init.d/ scripts, but it did not rely on them.14:31
jrwrenin fact, it was often very confusing to see if /etc/init.d script was being used v. /etc/init upstat job because both would exist.14:31
jrwrenyou had to know that the /etc/init job would be used and /etc/init.d script ignored.14:32
devinheitmuellerEntirely possible.  I’ll be the first to admit I haven’t done any Linux server admin in several years, and the use cases for my Ubuntu desktop have “just worked”.14:32
jrwrenyes, its nice.14:32
jrwrenand systemd is nice too.14:32
jrwrenso if you have used upstart, systemd is not much of a change.14:32
jrwreneven the shell scripts thing is being worked around in the complex cases, so services still use shell scripts to start.14:33
jrwrene.g. a systemd service with ExecStart=/etc/init.d/yourservice systemd-start14:39
jrwrenlooks to be the pattern from debian/ubuntu14:39
jrwrenand that way you can have service packages which work with 3+ init systems easily.14:40
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