[02:21] <Roguehorse> nhaines: Well, I wish I could attend your talk coming up as I will be scrounging for pointers and tips while I work on my first book.
[02:22] <akk> I wish I could too -- sounds like a great talk.
[02:23] <nhaines> Roguehorse: thanks, and congratulations on your first book!
[16:54] <Roguehorse> what's the best line spacing to use while writing my drafts? 2? so there is room for editing and notations?
[16:59] <nhaines> Single.
[16:59] <nhaines> You can change to double-space before you print, if you need it.
[16:59] <nhaines> Otherwise, most editing and notations are digital.
[16:59] <nhaines> It really depends on what kind of book you're writing and how it's being presented.  :)
[17:06] <pleia2> and rules in place for editing, I added "natural" space (a couple newlines after headings, between sections, etc) to my documents in my first chapter and they were all "stop that"
[17:07] <nhaines> pleia2: don't do that!  :)
[17:07] <pleia2> inorite
[17:07] <pleia2> so now I keep it simple, and someone else cleans it up where I make a mistake
[17:07] <pleia2> and no more random spacing
[17:08] <nhaines> You can do a search and replace, basically s/\n\n/\n/ but ick.  :)
[17:08] <pleia2> word doc over here
[17:08] <nhaines> You can do it in LibreOffice too.
[17:08] <pleia2> ah :)
[17:10] <nhaines> I had a 300 page Word Doc I had to layout for print, and line breaks was a huge hassle.  :)
[17:11] <nhaines> It breaks widow/orphan stuffs, makes for ragged top margins, and makes paragraph spacing less flexible.
[17:12] <pleia2> yeah, you're welcome
[17:12] <pleia2> :D
[17:13] <nhaines> :D
[17:13] <pleia2> I'm now using the built in templatey things that come with the doc outlines that my publisher uses
[17:13] <pleia2> it's still a bit clumsy, but better
[17:13] <nhaines> Yup, that's what I'm doing.  It's definitely more simple.
[17:13] <nhaines> akk: I owe you an email!
[17:14] <akk> nhaines: No hurry. Did you give your talk yet?
[17:14] <pleia2> thursday!
[17:15] <akk> I used the templatey things for my first edition, and it worked okay in OOo.
[17:15] <nhaines> Nope!  Which means I still have to figure out what to do for a presentation.
[17:15]  * nhaines likes talking, dislikes creating slides.
[17:15] <akk> The second edition was a nightmare because they had me start from these doc files that were generated backouts from the formatted PDFs that went to the printer.
[17:15] <nhaines> Eep!
[17:16] <pleia2> tempting to find some revision-controllable format if I were to do this again, but word docks landing on my lap were just simple and writing a book is already "omg everything is new and I don't know what I'm doing"
[17:16] <akk> They were full of invisible codes that made OOo and Word not like each other
[17:16] <akk> so e.g. I'd edit something send it to them and it would crash Word on their end.
[17:16] <nhaines> ha
[17:16] <pleia2> akk: ouch, frustrating
[17:16] <nhaines> pleia2: pretty much.
[17:17] <akk> If I ever do a third edition with them I want to try something like writing in latex then using a latex-to-word generator.
[17:17] <nhaines> I can predict they'd love that.  No, wait.
[17:18] <nhaines> I think they switched out the templates on me.  Part of me wants to ask for updated templates, and the other part of me is glad it's not my job to worry about.  :)
[17:25] <nhaines> My concern went from "I want to make sure I remember to change the page headers with the chapter name" to "Oh, it doesn't repeat the header automatically?  The typesetter can do that then."
[17:25] <nhaines> I do the first and second pages and the rest is up to somebody else.  What am I paying them 90% of net for anyway?  ;)
[17:26] <pleia2> hehe
[17:34] <nhaines> Roguehorse: what are you writing?
[17:37] <Roguehorse> CHRONIC: Living With Minimal Change Disease - and autobiography  http://www.roguehorse.net/projects.html
[17:37] <darthrobot`> Title: [Scott DuBois - Projects]
[17:38] <Roguehorse> I'm using LibreOffice 4.2 (default install for Kubuntu)
[17:38] <nhaines> Ooh
[17:39] <akk> What's the target? Published as books, ebooks, websites?
[17:39] <pleia2> Roguehorse: that's wonderful (the book, obviously, not the disease!)
[17:40] <Roguehorse> book
[17:40] <Roguehorse> maybe ebook
[17:40] <Roguehorse> pleia2: Thank you
[17:41] <pleia2> "we don't love Amazon" if you're not aiming it at a publisher, a close friend of mine has found a lot of success with her independent books via Amazon's epub and print services, she's winning awards and things now <3 http://www.amazon.com/Christina-Simpson/e/B00CVBDEA4
[17:41] <darthrobot`> Title: [Amazon.com: Christina Simpson: Books, Biography, Blog, Audiobooks, Kindle]
[17:42] <pleia2> s/if/but if
[17:43] <Roguehorse> how come we don't love Amazon? I LOVE Amazon! My Kindle apps are my best friends!
[17:44] <akk> Ugh, I definitely don't love kindle spyware. But I'm a hypocrite because I buy from amazon a lot.
[17:45] <Roguehorse> =) ...... I understand. I am torn the same way on a constant basis.
[17:45] <pleia2> Roguehorse: they treat publishers and signed (non-independent) authors poorly, undercut pricing, etc etc
[17:46] <pleia2> they've pretty much have destroyed brick and mortar book industry, which is quite sad
[17:46] <Roguehorse> oh....well, they're big. They can be mean and get away with it.
[17:46] <pleia2> yep
[17:47] <pleia2> I still frequent my local bookstore because it's a nice place to be and I don't mind paying a bit more to lurk there for a bit
[17:47] <Roguehorse> I do miss book stores. I remember many a day just hanging out at B&N
[17:47] <pleia2> but I do buy books on amazon too :(
[17:48] <pleia2> there are also a few used bookstores hanging on in the area, an amazing one for scifi and fantasy in berkeley: http://www.darkcarnival.com/
[17:48] <darthrobot`> Title: [Dark Carnival Bookstore]
[17:49] <Roguehorse> Yeah, still some good indies up around you guys. Down here, not so much.
[17:49] <pleia2> plus there's a comic book store and one of the best judaica stores in the bay area on the same block <3
[17:49] <akk> I never really had a good local non-chain bookstore, so I was all for chains like B&N and now Amazon.
[17:49] <pleia2> pretty much need a car to get there, but otherwise it's nice going there
[17:49] <akk> Even though I like the *idea* of the great small local bookstore.
[17:50] <Roguehorse> I get torn because I also believe in "saving the trees"
[17:51] <pleia2> I have a barnes & noble Nook for ebooks, usually novels or books I don't think I'll loan out or read again (vendor+format lock in, I don't expect they'll be accessible in 20 years)
[17:51] <pleia2> tech books I have to have paper, and books I want to loan out or read in the future I'll buy paper of
[17:52] <pleia2> I've noticed I've been shifting more to paper again, my nightstand is turning into a book mountain again
[17:52] <Roguehorse> makes sense for notes and markup
[17:53] <akk> A lot of books aren't available as ebooks. I wish I could get things like the Roadside Geology series as ebooks.
[17:53] <nhaines> I pretty much love Amazon.
[17:53] <akk> Things I mostly want when traveling but always forget to bring the paper ones.
[17:53] <nhaines> pleia2: it'd be interesting to chat about KDP.
[17:53] <pleia2> I bring my Nook and a couple magazines when traveling, no paper books
[17:53] <pleia2> nhaines: KDP?
[17:53] <nhaines> Kindle Direct Publishing.
[17:53] <pleia2> ah :)
[17:54] <akk> I usually do that too, pleia2
[17:54] <akk> though on my last short trip I was in the middle of a library paperback so I brought it.
[17:54] <Roguehorse> \o I'm for that!
[17:54] <nhaines> 70% of gross with direct pricing control and no-length contracts is better than 8% of net with no price controls.  :)
[17:54] <pleia2> nhaines: message CrissiD some time and tell her I sent you (she's the author I linked, co-founder of FOSSCON in Philadelphia too! she's awesome)
[17:54] <akk> Real publishers are really screwing authors over on ebook royalties these days
[17:54] <akk> so self-publishing or kindle direct or programs like that make a lot of sense.
[17:55] <pleia2> akk: yeah
[17:55] <nhaines> pleia2: I do a lot of ebook formatting for indies.
[17:55] <akk> Apress's new royalty rates are ridiculous -- the same % for ebooks as for paper! when ebooks have no marginal cost to them!
[17:56] <akk> It used to be 50% for ebooks.
[17:56] <nhaines> Oh, did it?  I didn't know that.
[17:56] <Roguehorse> This is all stuff I'm going to have to look into
[17:56] <akk> yep, ebooks were actually a significant part of the money you could make off a book
[17:56] <Roguehorse> A whoile new world!
[17:56] <akk> even though only crazy people bought the ebook, because Apress charges more for the ebook than the paper book costs on Amazon.
[17:56] <Roguehorse> whole
[17:57] <akk> s/crazy/rich
[17:57] <pleia2> I probably should care, but I for real am not writing a tech book for money (my day job pays very well, sales of a tech book wouldn't change my life even if I got all the profit)
[17:57] <nhaines> I'm very happy with Apress, but the only reason I'm publishing with them (or anyone) is because I understand that tech books are usually purchased on paper.  Which makes sense.
[17:57] <nhaines> And yeah, tech books don't sell well.
[17:57] <akk> True nuff, should never write a book for the money 'cause it ain't worth it for that.
[17:57] <pleia2> (though I did get a lawyer to look over my contract and did negotiation, because I'm a grown up)
[17:58] <nhaines> Roguehorse: get someone to do a cover for your book. Don't do it yourself.  I can immediately tell your mockup was done in WordArt and wouldn't buy it.  :)
[17:58] <nhaines> I can probably refer you to an expensive cover designer or two once the book is in revisions.
[17:58] <Roguehorse> well, I'm broke and things aren't in great shape right now so I'm being as creative as possible
[17:58] <nhaines> s/expensive/inexpensie
[17:58] <Roguehorse> nhaines: k
[17:59] <nhaines> You shouldn't worry about the cover yet.  But that cover will drive away sales.
[17:59] <nhaines> It's clean and one of the better ones I've seen, but no good.  :)
[17:59] <Roguehorse> I just wanted something to represent...it's what first came to mind
[18:01] <Roguehorse> I did the cover in Inkscape
[18:01] <nhaines> It not bad as a placeholder.  Trust me, I've seen *horrible* things.  I could nitpick a couple typesetting things but it's not terrible.  Just plan for it to be a placeholder only.  :)
[18:01] <Roguehorse> k
[18:02] <nhaines> I was super excited when I saw Apress added a book cover to my book.  But I'm still like "okay, but I still have to finish the book first."  https://www.amazon.com/author/nathanhaines
[18:02] <darthrobot`> [R: www.amazon.com] Title: [Amazon.com: Nathan Haines: Books, Biography, Blog, Audiobooks, Kindle]
[18:02] <pleia2> heeh
[18:03] <nhaines> Although, to be honest, I sort of miss the old yellow covers.
[18:03] <pleia2> I got to pick from 10 or so drafted covers, I don't think it's public yet though
[18:03] <pleia2> and the ubuntu book is pretty much the same cover as previous editions https://www.amazon.com/author/elizabethkjoseph
[18:03] <darthrobot`> [R: www.amazon.com] Title: [Amazon.com: Elizabeth K. Joseph: Books, Biography, Blog, Audiobooks, Kindle]
[18:05] <nhaines> pleia2: ooh  :)
[18:05] <pleia2> I also forget what it looks like, I think there were clouds and a big circle thing
[18:05] <nhaines> I don't remember why I didn't try to grab "nhaines" as my friendly URL thing.
[18:06] <pleia2> heh, I was in the tail end of my name-change-again identity crisis :)
[18:06] <pleia2> but I did settle on Elizabeth K. Joseph for a name, so
[18:07] <nhaines> haha.  Well, you can always change it!
[18:07] <pleia2> if I change my name again, it's just going to legally be pleia2
[18:07] <pleia2> ;)
[18:07] <nhaines> Haha
[18:09] <Roguehorse> I love this infographic https://www.dropbox.com/s/52dx02zl90lc0iv/best_jobs_for_introverts.png?dl=0
[18:09] <darthrobot`> Title: [Dropbox - best_jobs_for_introverts.png]
[18:11] <nhaines> Haha.  :)
[18:11] <Roguehorse> Makes me feel like at least I'm heading in the right direction
[18:11] <Roguehorse> =)
[18:14] <akk> Lawyers? Don't most lawyers have to interact with people quite a bit?
[18:14] <Roguehorse> depends on the lawyer, most have paralegals that interact for them I think
[18:15] <Roguehorse> I did a study once that said th best job for me would be an Archivist
[18:16] <Roguehorse> I think I would dig that to be honest. Just not a lot of call for it though.
[18:17] <akk> Archivist sounds like a great introvert job.
[18:19] <Roguehorse> I think it would be. Good luck finding it though. I think I'm going to be better off digging at app development.
[18:20] <Roguehorse> Web UI/UX.....something like that
[18:20] <Roguehorse> my body is shot ....... I have to jocky a desk
[18:22] <Roguehorse> I'm even digging at simple data entry admin stuff just to have income.....whatever
[18:22] <Roguehorse> can't be on my feet all day so customer service is out
[18:23] <Roguehorse> move too slow so manufacturing is out
[18:24] <akk> I would think people hiring archivists would look for people with librarian backgrounds.
[18:24] <Roguehorse> but right now, I still can't get to an interview because I'm still too sick and heavily medicated so I'm kind of in a limbo state
[18:24] <akk> And research librarian would be a fun job too, if you didn't have to walk around reshelving things.
[18:25] <Roguehorse> Yeah, except libraries are kind of going by the wayside like bookstores
[18:25] <akk> Are they? I don't think the libraries where I've lived have fewer librarians now than they used to.
[18:26] <akk> They get more technical questions now, I'm sure, and have to help with the computers.
[18:26] <Roguehorse> from the last time I was at the local, they're all on open source software too
[18:27] <Roguehorse> or at least "free" as much as they can....that's what I saw anyway
[18:28] <Roguehorse> I took the library test just before going to work fo AT&T and got selected
[18:29] <Roguehorse> I missed my interview.....showed up at the wrong location and ended up at AT&T....(what a huge mistake)
[18:29] <Roguehorse> that job damn near killed me in the first week
[18:29] <akk> I think ours still use windows on all the user-visible machines.
[18:30] <nhaines> I wish the library used Ubuntu on the computers.  Some old Windows, though.
[18:30] <nhaines> Which is fine.  I don't use them.  :)
[18:31] <Roguehorse> I would think Ubuntu in libraries would be very smart
[18:32] <akk> It sure would make sense. Except that librarians, now, are not very tech savvy, so they don't want to learn a new OS.
[18:33] <akk> nhaines: I use the card catalog ones pretty often. Not the other ones.
[18:33] <Roguehorse> I can't even drive commercially because I can't pass the vision test. LOL! OH LORD I'm pitiful.... +(
[18:33] <Roguehorse> =(
[18:35] <nhaines> akk: I remember when there were card catalogs.
[18:36] <Roguehorse> I suppose I could chase down library gigs...I'll have to dig into the county job boards again
[18:36] <akk> nhaines: Yes, d and I were talking about the term "card catalog" the other day and wondering how many people would understand it.
[18:36] <Roguehorse> Oh yeah! Dewey Decimal buddy!
[18:36] <akk> Sort of like "dialing" a phone.
[18:36] <akk> I gripe about the poor search in most library online catalogs, but they sure are better than card catalogs.
[18:37] <nhaines> That's for sure.
[18:37] <Roguehorse> see...now I would be in hog heaven building a database like that
[18:37] <nhaines> I do miss card catalogs... but probably in the same sense that I miss modems.
[18:37] <nhaines> In that, I miss them because I haven't had to put up with one in 15 years.
[18:38] <Roguehorse> cataloging books into a digital archive all day.....oh hell yeah!
[18:38] <akk> nhaines: There was something cool about that big row of little industrial-looking drawers, made me feel like an insider using it when I was a kid.
[18:39] <akk> But I have to say, nowadays I think the space would be better used for more books, or (second choice) more computers.
[18:39] <nhaines> That's exactly it.
[18:39] <Roguehorse> They were really nice weren't they? All big and wood filled with troves of info.
[18:39] <akk> Often they were metal, not wood.
[18:40] <nhaines> For as much as I miss WWIV-based BBSes, I'm not certain I would actually use one.  :)
[18:40] <akk> Depends on how posh your library was. :)
[18:40] <Roguehorse> Ah, I rememeber the big wood ones.
[18:40] <Roguehorse> Then there was microfish
[18:40] <Roguehorse> ugh
[18:40] <akk> That was really cool the first one or two times, then a pain any other time.
[18:41] <akk> The first one or two times I felt like a spy getting to access special tiny miniaturized information.
[18:41] <Roguehorse> LOL =)
[18:41] <Roguehorse> yeah, well, ya do what ya gotta
[18:41] <nhaines> Yeah, I always meant to look at microfiche.
[18:42] <Roguehorse> you never used it?
[18:42] <pleia2> akk: haha, I don't think I ever grew out of the spy phase (I am old enough that they were used faaar more than the internet in my school library)
[18:43] <nhaines> Nope, never needed to.
[18:43] <Roguehorse> I don't think it's a whole lot different than digging through a Google search really. LOL
[18:43] <Roguehorse> just no links to go anywhere
[18:44] <akk> Yeah, like a google search if you had to skim with your eyes through files on google's disks one by one instead of searching. :)
[18:44] <pleia2> I also prefer ads from 1912 to modern ones
[18:44] <pleia2> because so amusing!
[18:44] <Roguehorse> actually, a LOT like using eLinks or any other CLI browser
[18:44] <pleia2> and they don't blink
[18:44] <pleia2> or talk
[18:45] <akk> Early ads can be a lot of fun.
[18:46] <akk> I'm sure ours will be just as funny in 50 years.
[18:46] <Roguehorse> the Wendy's tables
[18:54] <nhaines> http://i.imgur.com/P5cYt72.png
[18:54] <darthrobot`> Content type: [image/png] Size: [581319]
[19:07] <Roguehorse> sometimes I prefer the left side.....less clutter
[19:08] <Roguehorse> not as visually stimulating but it's like comparing a book to TV really
[19:08] <Roguehorse> imo
[19:16] <nhaines> Yup.  I never use elinks, but I would be comfortable on a text-only terminal.
[19:17] <Roguehorse> I don't use it much either, but it's small and if X isn't there..it works
[19:18] <nhaines> I used to use lynx.
[19:18] <nhaines> Used to use pine, too.
[19:18] <Roguehorse> yeah, there's a few of them over the years
[19:18] <Roguehorse> elinks just happens to have bells and whistles
[19:18] <nhaines> http://i.imgur.com/hkkj0yR.png
[19:18] <darthrobot`> Content type: [image/png] Size: [139858]
[19:20] <Roguehorse> yeah...I use mutt
[19:20] <nhaines> I would, but obviously whatever I used at 14 is the superior software.
[19:22] <Roguehorse> https://www.dropbox.com/s/dnixgshj4ne7t9f/mutt.png?dl=0
[19:22] <darthrobot`> Title: [Dropbox - mutt.png]
[19:22] <Roguehorse> LOL!
[19:23] <Roguehorse> In my case that would be paper....=)
[19:24] <Roguehorse> 1984 didn't have a lot of general public email ... great Van Halen albums yeah...but not email
[19:30] <nhaines> Every so often I want to dig out and host Trade Wars 2002 again.  I don't have a v3 license (although I can get one cheap) but I do have a v2 license.
[19:34] <Roguehorse> what's that? Never heard of it
[19:39] <nhaines> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TradeWars_2002
[19:39] <darthrobot`> Title: [TradeWars 2002 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia]
[19:40] <nhaines> It was a door game that is sort of a trading sim.
[19:40] <nhaines> But in space!
[19:49] <akk> I still use mutt. It's so much faster to get through my mail than waiting for gui clients.