[18:25] <zequence> holstein: Actually, len may be doing more coding than me, so there's at least the two of us :).
[18:26] <zequence> I'm not burned out, so don't worry about me
[18:27] <holstein> oh, im not worried that you are burned out
[18:27] <zequence> But, there is a problem with how we deal with a lot of stuff - mainly because our community is too small
[18:27] <holstein> its that, you *will* .. since, there is literally no plan in place to swap leads
[18:27] <holstein> you just go, til, somewhere, behind closed doors, you hand it off to someone
[18:27] <zequence> That's not my plan though
[18:27] <holstein> we should just document it as such, thats all
[18:28] <zequence> My plan has always been to have an election, but for one to take place - with members who know what they are voting for, we need more people actively involved
[18:28] <zequence> Also, there needs to be more than one other person to vote for
[18:28] <holstein> i assure you, im not interested in beind lead
[18:29] <holstein> i was, as i told you, personally, in PM,when the lead position was handed over to you, interested in entertaining someone like falk, or the AVlinux creator.. for example
[18:30] <zequence> Can't hand anything over to anyone who doesn't do Ubuntu Studio development
[18:30] <holstein> lol
[18:30] <zequence> The only way to do this is to do this
[18:30] <holstein> they would do whatever it takes, and be voted on..
[18:31] <holstein> anyways, ideally, i think it was be great if you or len were MOTU's.. whatevrer sponsorship, $$, or work  that takes..
[18:31] <zequence> I have upload rights for our packages, so that's always something
[18:31] <zequence> I also have access to Debian multimedia sources
[18:32] <zequence> Neither falktx or the AVLinux guy (to my knowledge) have been even trying to get into that
[18:32] <zequence> That's kind of the problem
[18:32] <holstein> right
[18:32] <holstein> and why?
[18:32] <holstein> why are we not attracting that kind of talent?
[18:32] <zequence> No one is stopping them
[18:33] <holstein> right.. so, again... why?
[18:33] <zequence> It's up to them what they want to do
[18:33] <holstein> what limitations? can we do something to attract them? do we need to? etc..
[18:33] <zequence> It's not like there there are a lot of barriers in the way
[18:33] <zequence> It's pretty open to whoever has the interest
[18:33] <zequence> If you don't have the interest, well..
[18:34] <holstein> you would think.. so whats up?
[18:34] <holstein> thats all i would like to know, and address
[18:34] <holstein> is it upstream? is it not having support in the work flow? is it *us* here? etc
[18:34] <zequence> I think it's mostly personal stuff, but that's my opinion
[18:34] <holstein> not that we have to make it a goal to be attractive.. but, why are folks not working with us, and making their own stuff?
[18:35] <zequence> No one here is stopping anyone from doing stuff
[18:35] <zequence> falktx doesn't want to do things the hard way - following a policy made by a community
[18:35] <holstein> right.. the door is open, i get that.. but to what?
[18:36] <zequence> That's my interpretation of what he told me, anyway
[18:36] <zequence> He likes to do things his own way.
[18:36] <zequence> That doesn't work
[18:36] <holstein> nah
[18:36] <zequence> I mean, to a limit
[18:36] <holstein> thats what ubuntu is ;)
[18:36] <holstein> someone setting up a way, and the community following it, and re-defining it
[18:36] <holstein> falk is talented. if he wanted to get more involved upstream.. etc
[18:37] <zequence> Everyone is welcome to continue the work, but you also have to respect the work
[18:37] <holstein> anyways, its deoesnt have to be falk..
[18:37] <holstein> do you have to repect the work?
[18:37] <zequence> None of falktx applications have been packaged in Debian yet
[18:37] <holstein> respect what work? where?
[18:37] <holstein> you mean, they have to "respect upstream"? and who does? anyone?
[18:37] <zequence> What work? The work that the community does, for Debian, and Ubuntu
[18:37] <holstein> its not documented that respect is part of the equation.. etc..
[18:38] <zequence> You have to respect the policies, and other stuff that the community has agreed on, in one way or another
[18:38] <zequence> YOu cant just bypass everything
[18:38] <zequence> But, if you want to, you can always start your own distro
[18:39] <OvenWerks> Part of the limitation with US is that we have to work with our repo. Often the version of a major app or utility we are stuck with in an LTS ends up broken.
[18:39] <holstein> well, there was a suggestion to breakk it off into a PPA
[18:39] <holstein> which, i think is a valid conversation
[18:39] <OvenWerks> Jackd2 in 14.04 as an example.
[18:40] <OvenWerks> putting it in a ppa, makes it the same as falk's work
[18:40] <holstein> if we, based on work flow, are *always* limited by that, and releasing something that is always behind, or, not good enough, then, its something to discuss, for sure
[18:41] <zequence> I got to go, sorry. But, I will be available a lot more the coming week. Planning to do a lot of work then.
[18:41] <holstein> anyways, this is the kind of thing we can discuss at meetings.. which, i will hopefully be having time for setting up in the fall
[18:41] <OvenWerks> I am speaking from mostly an audio POV for sure as I don't do enough of anyting else
[18:43] <holstein> i would like to speak constructively about how to identify, and potentially address what may keep contributors from joining
[18:43] <holstein> "respect" is not a requirement ;)
[18:44] <OvenWerks> encouragement probably is
[18:44] <holstein> its not documented anywhere that i know of.. folks disagree all the time, and identify, and address, and change things.. it doenst have to be a sign of disrespect to want to change things.. 
[18:44] <OvenWerks> I agree
[18:45] <holstein> i would just like to brainstorm.. why do folks start their own spins, instead of contributing here, to US
[18:45] <holstein> if its because we are always limited to the repo, can we address that? do we need to maintain an official port, etc..
[18:46] <holstein> if its, "its just too hard to properly work with upstream ubuntu", then, we need to mention that to upstream, and see about getting a liason, or whatever..
[18:46] <OvenWerks> If you look at kzstudio, it always has the latest fixes. Even quicker than they get to debian, let alone ubuntu.
[18:47] <holstein> yup
[18:47] <holstein> and if thats the appeal, how do we compete with that? and do we need to?
[18:47] <OvenWerks> The day after (hour after?) ardour 4.1 was out, it was in kxstudio
[18:47] <holstein> ubuntu-mate is going to implement some form of 'work flows' soon.. meta packages for different production
[18:47] <holstein> are we being made irrelevant?
[18:48] <holstein> we dont contrbute any code, other than the low latency kernel, AFAIK
[18:48] <holstein> so, could we just do that? just be "the ubuntustudio kernel"..?
[18:48] <OvenWerks> When people ask for a recomended distro, it is almost never Studio.
[18:48] <holstein> again.. just brain storming.. but, having a kernel, in the main repo, that works well.. that would contribute to everyone.. 
[18:49] <OvenWerks> Yes.
[18:49] <holstein> OvenWerks: its always specifically, that ubuntustudio is *not* a good choice
[18:49] <OvenWerks> kx uses it :)
[18:49] <holstein> OvenWerks: i challenge it, and am usually met with "ok, i havent actually tried it in years".. or whatever
[18:50] <holstein> but still.. its a bad reputation.. and i would like to, from the ground up, look at all the moving parts.. or, non-moving parts, and see what we need to do to fit whatever goals it is we have
[18:50] <holstein> who is we? etc..
[18:50] <OvenWerks> holstein: I think there are some things in the linux world that are not generally done right for audio.
[18:50] <holstein> OvenWerks: for audio production, for sure.. and are we always burned by that? if so, the PPA thing sounds like a good idea
[18:51] <holstein> though, then, we compete with falk..
[18:51] <OvenWerks> right
[18:51] <holstein> i have to run, or i will miss the double gigs i have.. cheers!
[18:51] <OvenWerks> I think the (semi)pro audio linux world needs to start with running jack from session start
[18:51] <OvenWerks> holstein: o/