[11:06] <zequence> OvenWerks: holstein: -controls is supposed to do that sort of stuff.
[11:07] <zequence> I'm on vacation right now, with very poor internet, so I might not be logged in much, but I will be doing some work this week
[12:54] <OvenWerks> zequence: Yup, controls will need to have more than one executable/script probably.
[13:02] <holstein> so, we already have that, then?
[13:02] <holstein> or, we need to implement it, and it should be implemented in controls?
[13:16] <OvenWerks> holstein: we need to implement it and controls is the GUI at least.
[13:18] <OvenWerks> holstein: What I have is specific to my system and requires manual setup. Controls should be able to show the AIs to the user and ask which ones to use for what.
[13:18] <holstein> OvenWerks: right.. but, its good to hear its working for you
[13:19] <holstein> i want/need that manual setting control.. thats why i disabled the auto start stuff in kxstudio
[13:19] <OvenWerks> holstein: http://www.ovenwerks.net/software/audsysmode.html is what my gui looks like.
[13:21] <OvenWerks> holstein: but the part that starts jack/a2jmidid is a script that runs if the GUI is there or not.
[13:23] <OvenWerks> My start script has the beginnings of being configurable as all the jack commandline stuff uses variables so a configuration file could be read in first. The file could/should be managed by a GUI
[13:27] <OvenWerks> holstein: did you know that jackdbus allows (through jack_control) to change jack settings without stopping starting jack?
[13:28] <OvenWerks> What kinds of settings do you want to change? Latency can be changed on the go... but some applications do not deal with it correctly like rakarrack.
[13:29] <holstein> OvenWerks: yup.. latency settings like that.. thats all
[13:29] <OvenWerks> guitarix and ardour have no problem
[13:30] <OvenWerks> jack_bufsize changes frames per period
[13:31] <OvenWerks> pulse is ok with latency changes as well.
[13:32] <OvenWerks> jack_bufsize 1024 ... jack_bufsize 64   etc.
[13:33] <OvenWerks> holstein: I think jack_bufsize comes with jackd
[13:33] <OvenWerks> Yes, it does
[13:36] <OvenWerks> One of the problems with jackd and settings, is that jack will not set frames too big, but will set frames too small and then jack would crash.
[13:36] <holstein> well, folks break things now
[13:37] <OvenWerks> I think we can deal with that for some well known cards like HDA stuff
[13:37] <holstein> what did i do? i downloaded ubuntustudio, and 64studio.. 64studio live, or ubuntustudio installed.. i would clickk something like ardour, it would throw an error i didnt understand about jack not running
[13:37] <holstein> jack would be hung in the background, and audio broke
[13:37] <holstein> i didnt understand what that meant, for literally months..
[13:37] <OvenWerks> Jack running all the time fixes that
[13:37] <OvenWerks> ... now that ardour doesn't need jack anymore
[13:38] <OvenWerks> ardour without jack in linux still has issues on some systems though.
[13:39] <holstein> i think jack running all the time is the lesser of the issues
[13:39] <holstein> its just ridiculous, that, most menu items, when clicked, just kick an error, and break the audio ;)
[13:40] <holstein> and, thats just addressing issues for new users, and adopters..
[13:40] <holstein> not that we have to address those users.. that may not be a target of the distro.. which, is fine
[13:40] <holstein> but, we are not targeting folks who want the latest and greatest..
[13:40] <OvenWerks> ubuntu deals with new users more than any.
[13:40] <holstein> it might be an angle to take.. even if it means stripping things out
[13:42] <OvenWerks> One of the big problems we have is people going to LAU and getting all kinds of wierd info some of which was true some years ago, but is no longer.
[13:42] <holstein> yup.. but, we cant necessarily address that, other than cleaning up our own wiki's
[13:42] <holstein> which, are a mess, from the top down
[13:42] <holstein> the ubuntu forums.. etc.. even the simple irc bots..
[13:42] <holstein> its *very* challenging to keep all that up to date
[13:42] <holstein> !xubuntu
[13:43] <holstein> !lubuntu
[13:43] <holstein> ^ for example.. not that im complaining.. just that, how long has lxde been installed instead of unity?
[13:44] <holstein> its easy to have, and collect mis-information.. or, simply information that is particular to specific hardware
[13:44] <holstein> and, can i pay for ubuntu support? if so, can i, as a studio owner, or audio production professional pay for ubuntustuduio support?
[13:44] <holstein> if not, is that a goal? if its not, is it a goal of ours? is it necessary? etc..
[13:45] <holstein> maybe those folks still just go to lau.. which is fine, but, i agree, problematic
[13:48] <OvenWerks> holstein: the whole RT framework is changing in Linux too.
[13:49] <OvenWerks> It could be interesting :)
[13:49] <holstein> OvenWerks: where are you following that? a mailing list?
[13:49] <holstein> OvenWerks: maybe we should stop doing a distro, and do a news podcast ;)
[13:50] <OvenWerks> holstein: we have to work with what we are each good at. Len doesn't do podcasts... or explain things well.
[13:50] <holstein> i think, the end result, with linux pro-audio setup is *so* nice.. but, not easy for new folks, for sure
[13:50] <holstein> even if its easy for some.. its not the common way other os's have to do it
[13:50] <holstein> not that we have to address that.. but, i think we need a clear answer for it
[13:51] <holstein> not "oh, its just magic, and you can RTFM.."
[13:51] <OvenWerks> the term "Pro" has it's pitfalls
[13:51] <holstein> OvenWerks: lol.. totally
[13:51] <OvenWerks> It is used more for advertizing than anything else
[13:51] <holstein> i just mean, a person at a studio, for example.. implementing that at a $100/hour studio
[13:52] <holstein> you buy protools.. and apple.. and some interface.. guarantees support.. calling 1800-company and getting at least things working, if not answers..
[13:52] <OvenWerks> An analog studio had "engineers" for a reason.
[13:52] <holstein> or, you click menu items, something about jack.. something about realtime.. RTFM on forums.. etc..
[13:52] <OvenWerks> The studios wanted one off solutions
[13:52] <holstein> OvenWerks: i can get with what i think you are implying.. that it *is* technical..
[13:53] <holstein> we could document that, and just have that as the answer.. "its complex"..
[13:54] <OvenWerks> I agree that a GUI should make it easy, but I still think that the person running it should have some idea that audio comes out of one box and goes into the next... 
[13:54] <holstein> we dont have to provide a typical answer to what the other OS's do..
[13:54] <holstein> i just dont think it should say, or imply magic
[13:55] <holstein> thats frustrating.. "oh, my friend said this was the best, and my interface isnt supported? this OS is crap.."
[13:55] <holstein> ^ common story.. and nothing we can address.. but, something we could at least try and have a clear statement about
[13:55] <OvenWerks> I think a lot of people do not understand that windows hides audio errors and latency and other issues
[13:56] <holstein> and, make contact with vendors about
[13:56] <holstein> if we had a "vendors ubuntustudio has contacted about linux support" and answers..
[13:56] <OvenWerks> AT least the USB situation is getting better
[13:56] <holstein> *way* better..
[13:56] <OvenWerks> More of them are standard
[13:57] <OvenWerks> net audio interfaces look to be easier to use in the long run too.
[13:57] <holstein> i think, support in general, for hardware, is getting better..
[13:57] <OvenWerks> the routing is all web interface.
[13:58] <holstein> but, i think its also easy for us to forget, its not the responsibility of linux to provide that support
[13:58] <OvenWerks> yes
[13:58] <holstein> its quite surprising, when i listen to, for example, the linux action show, and hear an interview with the fedora team, and the question "what are you doing to provide support for macbooks" comes up..
[13:59] <holstein> i mean, linux is not preventing apple from providing support.. and, *that* is where the pressure should be.. it would be simple.. "i wont buy your hardware until you support linux".. if literally everyone did that, we would have linux support
[13:59] <OvenWerks> that is where Linux comes from though. Taking HW that was never ment for it and making it work anyway.
[13:59] <holstein> not that we have that kind of market sway, but, that would fix it, and quite quickly..
[14:00] <holstein> OvenWerks: i agree.. i just dont think its neccessarily constructive to spend (arguable waste) time on that..
[14:00] <holstein> supporting the unsupported..
[14:01] <holstein> not that we are personally doing that.. but, its something we could at least have documented. so, folks understand who to ask for motu support
[14:01] <OvenWerks> But for add on cards, yes I think Linux should be expecting manufactures to provide support/make stanard IFs
[14:01] <holstein> so, it doest seem like, linux/ubuntu isnt supporting "industry standards"
[14:02] <holstein> i think, thats detracting.. "my $2000 interface doesnt work?".. and why?..
[14:02] <holstein> if more of those folks try to decide *before* buying the 2k interface, and require linux support, we'll get it
[14:03] <OvenWerks> for someone with $2k ... audio science has some nice stuff
[14:03] <holstein> do we have, on the site, recommended/supported interfaces?
[14:03] <OvenWerks> They work hard at linux support
[14:03] <OvenWerks> holstein: is it up to date ?   ;)
[14:03] <holstein> i say, if folks give linux support, we should link them back.. and support that effort..
[14:04] <holstein> OvenWerks: hehe
[14:04] <holstein> well, those are the kind of "pencil pushing" things i could do..
[14:04] <holstein> i dont think i'll ever contribute code, but, when i get free from the house build here, we could get some easy-ish ideas like that, that others may appreciate
[14:05] <holstein> i think the best asset ubuntustudio has is that name.. ubuntu..
[14:05] <OvenWerks> I think that looking at some of the SW projects that are used profesionally like Rivendale and see what HW they use is good.
[14:05] <holstein> companies would have heard of it, potentially.. 
[14:07] <OvenWerks> holstein: one of the things I have seen that I think needs to be addressed is two audio cards, one in and one out.
[14:07] <holstein> OvenWerks: can it be?
[14:07] <OvenWerks> There is not a well thought out way of doing this, but it is quite common
[14:07] <holstein> you think jack would do it upstream? that would be ideal.. make it so everyone would get it..
[14:08] <OvenWerks> people get a USB mic or guitar if and want to use the internal for output
[14:08] <OvenWerks> It can be done right now.
[14:08] <holstein> i personally dont want it, but, folks who have one of those USB devices without monitoring *really* need it
[14:08] <OvenWerks> The problem I think is people go about it backwards
[14:08] <holstein> or, the mic, as you mention
[14:09] <OvenWerks> Most of the time it is recomended to use the internal as the jack backend and then use zita a2j for the mic.
[14:10] <OvenWerks> I think it should be the other way around. the input shold be the jack backend and the internal can use zita_j2a to ouput.
[14:10] <OvenWerks> This would give best quality, I think.
[14:10] <holstein> OvenWerks: i'll have to make some time, and have you help me setup some test senarios for that, so, i know whats going on there
[14:11] <holstein> i have some USB hardware to use for testing..
[14:11] <OvenWerks> What I would like to see in jack, is the ability to rename clients as system ports.
[14:11] <holstein> OvenWerks: wont hurt to ask..
[14:12] <holstein> i think that would help folks.. i see folks saying "i only see 2 inputs on my 4 channel card".. when, its really just 1L 1R 2L 2R, as a label
[14:12] <OvenWerks> SO that zita outputs would be listed as system1 and 2.
[14:12] <holstein> i think that would help folks label as they want.., right?
[14:12] <holstein> though, i see what you mean..
[14:13] <OvenWerks> There is supposed to be support for renaming ports, but not in our jack version yet :)
[14:13] <OvenWerks> falk just added it to jack2 last week.
[14:13] <holstein> would backporting address that for US?
[14:14] <OvenWerks> jack1 had it a while ago.
[14:14] <holstein> we should talk about doing only an LTS release, as well.. and backporting, vs, a release every 6 months..
[14:15] <OvenWerks> the way the ubuntu repos work make back porting hard. Rolling release is starting to look good to me.
[14:15] <holstein> OvenWerks: right? it always seemed challenging.. but, i thought it was just me
[14:16] <OvenWerks> ubuntu is behind debian which is behind the world already
[14:16] <holstein> wonder if we could be some test-bed for a rolling release model..
[14:16] <OvenWerks> That is why kxstudio exists
[14:16] <holstein> i *know* main ubuntu is talking about it..
[14:16] <holstein> could be quickly quite a mess..
[14:17] <holstein> anyways, im quite late.. i gotta run. cheers..
[14:17] <OvenWerks> ubuntustudio has been caught with bad versions of audio apps in our LTS a few times
[14:17] <OvenWerks> bye