[00:00] <bluesabre> oh yeah
[00:00] <bluesabre> August 6th - Ubuntu 14.04.3
[00:10] <knome> hrhr, productive night
[00:11] <jjfrv8> indeed!
[00:11] <knome> for you too :)
[00:11] <knome> nice to see you around again
[00:11] <jjfrv8> been lurking
[00:23] <knome> ochosi, there's now "some hover-style"
[00:25] <knome> pleia2, id you don't mind, you could reply to the people on the G+ list about the progress (by linking to the mail or in your own words if you wish)
[00:28] <knome> pleia2, ahem, other question that i've just forgot the answer to... was there anything stopping us from publishing the derivative guidelines (except maybe the package list)
[04:37] <pleia2> knome: updated g+ thread, and the derivative guidelines are fine aside from the package list
[04:59] <krytarik> knome: The outcome of my review of the docs' PDF addition (slightly excessive bzr diff): http://paste.openstack.org/show/TqRvKDxmr9moJBkJD66C/
[05:14] <ochosi> bluesabre: i did, but only briefly
[05:17] <ochosi> bluesabre: works nicely! i really dig it :) the only small thing that could be improved is the "apply" icon. not sure that one is really ideal. plus the proposed filename for exporting is currently "Unnamed" instead of Backup_2015_7-22_07_15_30.tar.gz (or whatever our file-format was again)
[05:18] <ochosi> bluesabre: from my pov a 0.1 can still be released and we can tweak those things for 0.2
[05:21] <ochosi> bluesabre: also, interesting diff in "date modified" for the same panel setup that was exported and imported again: http://i.imgur.com/KQbmw9R.png
[05:22] <ochosi> bluesabre: and as a last note, maybe ctrl+w/q or alt+c could close the window (or esc)
[05:22] <ochosi> bluesabre: other than that, premium work!
[06:19] <Luyin> hi knome 
[06:20] <Luyin> knome you asked for XSLT on the mailing list. here I am ;)
[10:05] <knome> Luyin, oh hello! the branch is lp:xubuntu-docs and the stylesheet at desktop-guide/libs/xubuntu-docbook-pdf.xsl
[10:07] <knome> Luyin, i don't have a clear idea what we should do with it (yet), but if you have ideas, feel free to experiment around :)
[10:08] <Luyin> knome well I'm not that into the material, and atm busy with organising my wedding, but I'll be glad to help from october on :)
[10:09] <Luyin> I'm going to subscribe in launchpad and keep watching out. if I can do anything in between, I'll do
[10:09] <knome> Luyin, great! thanks for your interest, and congratulations on the wedding :)
[10:10] <Luyin> thx, and yw ;)
[13:19] <knome> slickymasterWork, how do we want to work with the different paper sizes?
[13:20] <knome> export all languages in all paper sizes, or keep up a list of preferred paper sizes (either or both) for certain languages?
[13:20] <slickymasterWork> I think the later would be the best option knome 
[13:21] <knome> Unit193, i have some Makefile hacking for you... see slickymasterWork's comment above
[13:33] <astraljava> Could it be made dynamic, so that people could select which size they'd want, and the server would generate it for them?
[13:33] <knome> "the server"?
[13:34] <knome> [:
[13:34] <astraljava> Wait, where is this documentation?
[13:34] <knome> i'm talking about shipping these with the package
[13:34] <astraljava> Ohh, right.
[13:34] <knome> also, dynamic is meh
[13:34] <astraljava> My bad.
[13:34] <knome> it's mostly NA people who want something else than A4
[13:34] <astraljava> Dynamic is super awesome, but yeah doesn't really work here. :D
[13:35] <astraljava> The way I see it, they must be forced to the metric system anyway, why not start here? :D (granted, I have no idea whether paper sizes relate to the metric/imperial struggle)
[13:36] <slickymasterWork> ~yes, I really don't believe there's a wide 'market' for other sizes other than the most used
[13:39] <qwebirc846751> damn connection
[13:39] <knome> at least it's a non-problem here to produce various sizes
[13:40] <knome> so considering that, we could just do a4 and letter for all
[13:40] <knome> en needs both
[13:40] <knome> es needs both
[13:40] <knome> fr needs both
[13:41] <knome> what's left? fi and pt for a4
[13:41] <knome> oh and de likely needs both
[13:42] <knome> so it's not like we're building dozens of letter versions in vain
[13:42]  * slickymasterWork agrees
[13:42]  * astraljava wonders why fi would need both?
[13:42] <astraljava> Oh, sorry. Doesn't say so.
[13:42] <knome> astraljava, it wouldn't, but it's more work to NOT produce the letter size
[13:42] <astraljava> Right, because of the stupid Makefile?
[13:43] <knome> who knows if american finnish people want to read the documentation on paper
[13:43] <astraljava> Hahaha!
[13:43] <knome> just that we should maintain the list for languages that do not need both size
[13:43] <knome> +s
[13:43] <knome> and read that at build time
[13:43] <astraljava> Yes, understood.
[13:44] <knome> pleia2, slickymasterWork: wondering if we really need the canonical copyright statement for the docs
[13:45] <knome> even our website says: © 2012–2015 The Xubuntu community. Xubuntu and Canonical are registered trademarks of Canonical Ltd.
[13:45] <knome> (yes, i've silently went and changed that at some point)
[13:46] <knome> anyway, for anybody interested: http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/docs-pdfexport/xubuntu-documentation.pdf
[14:01] <Reklan> knome, thats looking really good.
[14:07] <pleia2> knome: I'd use the same wording as on the site
[14:15] <ochosi> knome: i'd say a4-only is fine for de
[14:16] <ochosi> and yay, that looks yummy! nice work!
[14:20]  * pleia2 gets sent photos of xubuntu being used in a clinic in uganda
[14:20] <pleia2> <3 <3
[14:20] <pleia2> I'll see if these can be shared
[14:30] <ochosi> pleia2: sounds great! so a third "xubuntu at..." article? :)
[14:31] <pleia2> ochosi: they're affiliated with one we previously interviewed, so likely not, but if they non-profit makes them public I'd share them on social media
[14:32] <ochosi> oh ok
[14:37] <knome> pleia2, i'll do "The Xubuntu documentation team", because... yeah, the "community" doesn't own the copyright
[14:38] <knome> probably better change the wording on site to "The Xubuntu team" too
[14:38] <knome> or sth
[14:38] <pleia2> knome: yeah
[15:20] <knome> bbl
[17:37] <krytarik> knome: I'm guessing you overlooked this change -- sed -i 's@\(>The contributors to\) this translation of the \(documentation are:</\)@\1 the various translations of this \2@' fo/C.fo -- here?: http://paste.openstack.org/show/TqRvKDxmr9moJBkJD66C/
[17:39] <knome> krytarik, maybe.
[17:39] <krytarik> You can blame bzr for that, of course! :P
[17:39] <knome> krytarik, another thing i think we should do is separate the translation target so targets like translate-pdf can peruse that
[17:58] <knome> krytarik, i'll be working with the branch today and i will get to the diff at some point, but if you don't mind doing a merge request for the rest of your change (and why not the translation thingy too), i'd love to see one :)
[17:59] <krytarik> Oh, I was hoping you'd merge those in with the rest of the stuff. :P
[18:01] <knome> ehh :)
[18:01] <knome> as i said, i'll do that at some point
[18:01] <knome> that is, if you don't do the MP
[18:02] <knome> what do you thin about splitting the translation stuff?
[18:02] <knome> +k
[18:03] <knome> if we set it up wisely, we can avoid creating translations for xml twice
[18:04] <knome> question:
[18:04] <knome> if all calls: clean html translate translate-pdf
[18:05] <knome> and both translate and translate-pdf call the same target, does it simply get done twice?
[18:05] <knome> or is the makefile wise enough to avoid doing the same target another time?
[18:08] <krytarik> The output format for both is different - and another one for each print size.
[18:15] <knome> xml isn't
[18:15] <knome> wait
[18:15] <knome> it is
[18:15] <knome> bah
[18:23] <krytarik> Reg. that, '--stringparam paper.type "$$paper"' is missing from the 'pdf' and 'translate-pdf' targets.
[18:24] <knome> mmh
[18:26] <krytarik> If we could somehow create HTMLs from 'fo- files, however.
[18:26] <knome> emmmh.
[18:26] <krytarik> * 'fo'
[18:27] <knome> i don't think that would be sensible though
[18:27] <knome> why add one more processing step if you can avoid it
[18:27] <krytarik> Because right now, as you mentioned, it triplicates.
[18:28] <knome> only duplicates
[18:28] <krytarik> 1 HTML, 1 A4, 1 US Letter.
[18:28] <knome> i also fear that even if doing fo -> HTML would be possible, it would mean changes in the HTML output -> need to change the CSS
[18:28] <knome> that's life
[18:29] <knome> i wonder if we could hack the fo file
[18:29] <knome> to first allow for an A4 export, then US letter
[18:29] <krytarik> Yeah.
[18:29] <knome> most likely yes
[18:30] <knome> page-width="8.5in" page-height="11in"
[18:30] <knome> occurs once per page
[18:30] <krytarik> Lovely.
[18:31] <knome> then the .fo file is ~765kB, not sure how fast grepping that is
[18:31] <knome> well, compared to simply creating another fo..
[18:31] <krytarik> lol
[18:32] <knome> oops, i found a bug in mousepad
[18:32] <knome> open multiple windows
[18:32] <knome> enable word wrap in one
[18:32] <knome> -> all documents are word wrapped (as expected i guess)
[18:32] <knome> then go to another window
[18:32] <knome> the word wrap item in the menu shows a wrong state (eg. as if word wrap was disabled)
[18:33] <knome> hmm
[18:33] <knome> now it doesn't happen
[18:33] <knome> no it does
[18:33] <knome> and when you then select that, nothing happens
[18:33] <knome> but the state is now correct
[18:34] <krytarik> Just the state indicator doesn't update immediately, it seems.
[18:35] <knome> yep, that
[18:36] <knome> ok, new makefiles pushed
[18:36] <knome> thanks
[18:37] <krytarik> Well, at least I won't have to do an MP now. :P
[18:37] <knome> yep :P
[19:15] <krytarik> knome: First, http://paste.openstack.org/show/6IpT3KcvwH83hljx2MuN/ - and I'm working on the other thing.
[19:21] <knome> uhhh
[19:21] <knome> still? :P
[19:22] <krytarik> Well, that's the thing with not testing stuff properly. :D
[19:22] <knome> noooo, is THAT it? (;
[19:22] <knome> i have it changed locally, when you have more incoming stuff i'll commit+push
[20:02] <knome> so one interesting question...
[20:03] <knome> droid sans doesn't have italic, should we continue using it but drop in the open sans italic style, or switch completely?
[20:06] <knome> and for future reference, we might need to include more droid fonts if we had some languages that didn't use latin alphabet
[20:06] <knome> but that's a stretch...
[20:16] <krytarik> knome: Switch completely from Droid Sans, no; make italic use something fitting, yes.
[20:19] <knome> open sans is derived from droid sans, so...
[20:21] <krytarik> Do they always look the same though?
[20:21] <knome> not at all
[20:21] <knome> but the italic style should be close enough to not look awkward
[20:34] <knome> yeah... we have no problems with this
[20:34] <knome> it's a perfect hoax
[20:35] <knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/docs-pdfexport/droidsans-with-opensans-italic.png
[20:36] <flocculant> odd wording
[20:36] <knome> which one?
[20:36] <knome> hoax? :)
[20:36] <flocculant> to the most common 
[20:36] <flocculant> yea - hoax is pretty odd :p
[20:37] <knome> well... we have this bzr branch...
[20:37] <flocculant> mmm
[20:38] <flocculant> ok - so I had a few guesses at that branch name 
[20:38] <knome> bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs
[20:41] <flocculant> oh good 
[20:41] <flocculant> all that ssh key stuff again 
[20:41] <knome> :)
[20:41] <knome> funee
[20:44] <flocculant> no keys at all here
[20:45] <knome> need help?
[20:50] <flocculant> nah
[21:12] <flocculant> knome: ok - so what file is that in? 
[21:13] <knome> desktop-guide/C/index.xml
[21:14] <flocculant> ta
[21:14] <flocculant> looked in there - couldn't see it ... 
[21:14] <flocculant> looked again 
[21:15] <knome> heh
[21:18] <flocculant> https://code.launchpad.net/~flocculant/xubuntu-docs/xubuntu-docs
[21:18]  * knome checks at some point
[21:18] <knome> stupid xsl processing
[21:20] <flocculant> thanks - I'll conveniently forget quickly about doing doc stuff 
[21:47] <krytarik> knome: There you go - decided for 'bzr diff' still: http://paste.openstack.org/show/PtdjFdz6lLMoCYhVjnnO/
[22:00] <knome> ookay
[22:00] <knome> let's see if i can figure this out - i've made some changes to the Makefile myself since this and i'm also dropping the test target
[22:01] <krytarik> Heh, and here I updated it for you too. :P
[22:02] <knome> are pushed now
[22:03] <knome> flocculant, your changes as well
[22:03] <flocculant> okey doke
[22:04] <knome> now, that is
[22:04] <flocculant> time to wander off now 
[22:04] <flocculant> night all 
[22:04] <knome> good night!
[22:10] <knome> krytarik, wondering if the A4 version should be without -A4 in the filename, but let's leave that for another day
[22:10] <krytarik> Yeah, I wondered about that too, since it's the default now.
[22:11] <krytarik> However, I decided that it's better as it is.
[22:12] <krytarik> Because the reader doesn't know what's the default.
[22:12] <knome> i guess so
[22:12] <krytarik> Next up is linking them somehow. :P
[22:12] <knome> yyep, just added a work item for that
[22:13] <knome> i have this crazy idea
[22:13] <knome> to make a full fledged table to the front page
[22:13] <krytarik> Eww.
[22:13] <krytarik> :D
[22:14] <knome> "Finnish    View in HTML    PDF  A4  US letter"
[22:14] <knome> or a subpage for the front page
[22:14] <knome> that would mean no extra magic would be needed for the website
[22:14] <knome> "See all formats and languages"
[22:14] <knome> view?
[22:14] <knome> whatever..
[22:15] <krytarik> Yeah, we'll figure it out.
[22:15] <knome> or Unit193.
[22:16] <krytarik> However, I earlier thought about linking them from the respective doc version's main page, at the top.
[22:16] <knome> like http://docs.xubuntu.org/1504/ ?
[22:17] <knome> or like http://docs.xubuntu.org/1504/fi/index.html ?
[22:17] <krytarik> The latter.
[22:17] <knome> yeah, why not
[22:17] <knome> one *more* thing
[22:17] <knome> the "welcome" section is technically the "abstract" for the documentation
[22:18] <knome> and while that isn't so crap for the website, it's a bit awkward how it's presented on the PDF
[22:18] <knome> so maybe we need to reconsider the technicality of that
[22:26] <krytarik> Yep, I agree.
[22:34] <krytarik> knome: Btw, reading your mail finally, I'm not sure we want to *ship* all those PDFs too, rather than just make them available on the website - after all, the docs *are* already offline available at that point.
[22:35] <knome> but not in a printable form
[22:35] <knome> i think ochosi wants to ship them too
[22:35] <knome> and i don't think that's at least a bad idea
[22:36] <knome> but i don't have strong feelings about it
[22:36] <knome> i'm happy that the export is there now
[22:36] <knome> let's allow users to use it as they please :)
[22:37] <knome> - even to the point of printing it out
[22:37] <knome> i know we wanted to get rid of that, but maybe we should reintroduce the version number on the documentation
[22:37] <knome> not only the startpage
[22:38] <knome> actually, maybe we can do it in a way that is invisible for the web
[22:38] <knome> but visible in the PDF
[22:38] <krytarik> Yeah, print version, I agree.
[22:38] <knome> yep
[22:38] <knome> useless in the HTML version
[22:39] <krytarik> I mean, reg. shipping the PDFs.
[22:39] <knome> aha :)
[22:40] <krytarik> Yeah, was busy with deleting emails. :P
[22:40] <knome> and the PDF version does give some benefits over the HTML version
[22:40] <knome> some like that
[22:40] <knome> for example continue-where-you-left
[22:40] <krytarik> Yeah, noticed.
[22:40] <knome> and the chapter index can be more useful
[22:40] <krytarik> Mhm.
[22:41] <knome> and yeah, printing out even parts of it - a troubleshooting guide or so, so you can checkmark what you've done
[22:41] <knome> and if listing one more target for buildtime is what we need to do to ship it... then yeah, no reason not to
[22:42] <krytarik> Can't we specify the version number for the footer or something?
[22:42] <knome> or just the verso page
[22:43] <knome> (the one(s) after the title (secto) page)
[22:43] <knome> see, i'm all too deep into docbook/xsl(t)/fo
[22:44] <krytarik> Neck deep really, yes. :P
[22:44] <knome> stuff happens.
[22:51] <krytarik> knome: http://docs.xubuntu.org/1504/C/index.html → "Xubuntu Documentation <release>" - problem solved. :P
[22:51] <knome> :P
[22:52] <krytarik> I think there is nothing wrong with showing it like that.
[22:52] <knome> but then that will be the PDF title
[22:52] <knome> which is not the most ideal imo
[22:52] <krytarik> Bleh, yes.
[22:52] <knome> so rather something that can be output on the PDF easily
[22:52] <knome> but that is left out from HTML
[22:52] <knome> or hidden
[22:53] <krytarik> Actually, that'd "Xubuntu <release> Documentation".
[22:53] <krytarik> + be
[22:53] <knome> that's even worse
[22:53] <knome> there's no way to translate that to finnish
[22:53] <krytarik> lol
[22:53] <knome> both versions would have to be translated to "Xubuntu dokumentaatio versiolle X"
[22:53] <knome> if you wanted to be very correct...
[22:54] <krytarik> So, no difference... :D
[22:54] <knome> well...
[22:54] <knome> i talked about this with pl-eia2
[22:55] <knome> "right-click X" -> "napsauta X:ää hiiren oikealla painikkeella"
[22:55] <knome> welcome to finland.
[22:55] <krytarik> Uff, yeah.
[22:56] <knome> and if X is a button, it would better to be "napsauta painikeeta X hiiren oikealla painikkeella"
[22:57] <krytarik> Enough with that already! :P
[22:57] <knome> *painiketta
[22:57] <knome> just had to correct that error...:P
[22:57] <krytarik> Yeah, I get that. :P
[23:11] <krytarik> knome: Just noticed, again I think, the page title of  http://docs.xubuntu.org/1504/  is "Welcome to Xubuntu!", while the page *header* is "Welcome to Xubuntu 15.04 Documentation!".
[23:11] <knome> heh
[23:11] <krytarik> In that context.
[23:12] <knome> true.
[23:13] <knome> maybe the title should be "Xubuntu Documentation"
[23:13] <krytarik> Yeah, at least.
[23:13] <knome> that is, the <title>
[23:14] <krytarik> That is, "Welcome to Xubuntu Documentation!"
[23:14] <knome> this is hard because
[23:14] <knome> this isn't the documentation
[23:14] <knome> the documentation is the official documentation link
[23:15] <knome> this is just the startpage for the docs/support/getting involved info
[23:17] <krytarik> But the header states so! :D
[23:17] <knome> mhm...
[23:17] <krytarik> I think that's just too picky. :P
[23:18] <krytarik> Both should refer to the same anyway.
[23:18] <knome> mmh
[23:19] <krytarik> Speaking of which, "The Official Documentation provides information to the most common issues with Xubuntu." :P
[23:19] <knome> yep, i noticed!
[23:19] <krytarik> Consistency FTL! :D
[23:20] <knome> that paragraph should make more sense anyway
[23:20] <knome> it was just a placeholder when i put it there
[23:20] <knome> but then... life happened :P
[23:20] <krytarik> Yeah, could be more elaborate, I guess.