[05:22] <magespawn> good morning
[05:55] <Kilos> morning all
[06:10] <Kilos> hi pieter2627 
[06:10] <pieter2627> morning all and oom Kilos 
[06:11] <pieter2627> lekker gereen van oggend
[06:11] <Kilos> 6.5mm rain last night
[06:11] <Kilos> en krag af meeste van die nag ook
[06:11] <Kilos> ai!
[06:11] <pieter2627> haha, ons sin aan vir a slag
[06:12] <Kilos> haha
[06:13] <pieter2627> teen minste nie so erg - het eintlik net gister se shedding gemis nadat elke dag die week af was
[06:13] <Kilos> sjoe ons was nog nie een keer af nie
[06:14] <Kilos> net gisteraand van die storm
[06:15] <Kilos> wb magespawn 
[06:32] <ThatGraemeGuy> morning
[06:32] <Kilos> hi ThatGraemeGuy 
[06:47] <inetpro> good mornings
[06:49] <Kilos> hi inetpro mazal 
[06:49] <mazal> More oom
[06:49] <mazal> Morning everyone
[06:49] <mazal> TGIF !!!!
[07:50] <Kilos> hmm...
[08:05] <Kilos> do we still have members in durban
[08:05] <Kilos> dbnlug is planning lp1 courses and the lp11 guys will help them
[08:06] <Kilos>  LPI Southern Africa, would like to assist
[08:07] <Kilos> wwk doing good down there
[08:07] <Kilos> pity he forget to irc
[08:07] <Kilos> forgets
[08:36] <ThatGraemeGuy> Cryterion is in that region
[08:36] <Kilos> aha ty ThatGraemeGuy 
[08:56]  * Cryterion is in Dbn
[09:04] <Kilos> Cryterion  did you read
[09:05] <Kilos> ill try remember to get wwk here to the meeting next weekso you guys can meet
[09:05] <Kilos> or do you know him already
[09:06] <Kilos> very nice guy and always helpful
[09:07] <Kilos> or pm me your email address and ill forward his mail to you
[09:07]  * mazal peeks in for 5 min
[09:08] <mazal> It's one of those Fridays that's Monday 
[09:08] <Kilos> iirc it was an idea to get ubuntu peeps and lugs to work together and wwk agrees
[09:08] <Kilos> ai! mazal wat nou
[09:08] <Kilos> just fix things man
[09:08] <mazal> Oom , lot's of pebkac and crap domain and crap technitians problems today
[09:09] <mazal> And people not listening , and people not reading
[09:09] <Kilos> ai!
[09:09] <mazal> etc. etc. etc.
[09:09] <Kilos> people never listen anymore
[09:09] <Kilos> yu should be used to that by now
[09:09] <mazal> And quick favor this and quick favor that
[09:09] <Kilos> lol
[09:09] <mazal> Which is never quick
[09:10] <mazal> And it always amazes me how quickly people suddenly develop a "problem" when they see you
[09:11] <mazal> You go for 1 thing and wind up with 20 
[09:11] <mazal> maaz it's time
[09:11] <Maaz> mazal: What?
[09:11] <mazal> maaz time for lunch
[09:11] <Maaz> mazal: Huh?
[09:12]  * mazal has a cheeseburger on the way :)
[09:19] <mazal> hmm... http://www.pcworld.com/article/2949106/software-web/one-ubuntu-pc-maker-is-kicking-adobe-flash-off-its-linux-systems.html
[09:25] <Cryterion> Kilos yes I did read, where could I get more info on it?
[09:26] <Cryterion> hi mazal
[10:17] <Kilos> Cryterion  i asked wwk to approve you
[10:17] <Kilos> might need to be vince0 that does it, i forget
[10:19] <Kilos> here is their site methinks http://durbanlinux.org.za/?page_id=10
[10:19] <Squirm> 'lo
[10:20] <Kilos> we as buntu peeps need to work more at getting lugs peeps onto irc
[10:20] <Kilos> hi Squirm 
[10:20] <Squirm> Fighting with ssh-agent and git :/
[10:20] <Kilos> ai!
[10:22] <Squirm> I need to start ssh-agent, add a key and clone a few repo's in one scipt
[10:22] <Squirm> For the life of me, I can't get it working
[10:24] <Squirm> Not authenticating :/
[10:24] <Kilos> ai!
[10:25] <mazal> Hi Cryterion , sorry I was attacked swamp here by lots of users again
[10:28] <Squirm> Using hashicorp's Atlas. Somehow the ssh command is run as root, but the rest of the commands are run as user
[10:29] <magespawn> Squirm: and the user cannot run the commands as root?
[10:30] <Squirm> magespawn: now that I know the ssh command runs as root. I can work around it
[10:30] <Kilos> hi magespawn 
[10:30] <Squirm> We're trying to get packer to build our dev box on Atlas, as apposed to running it locally
[10:30] <magespawn> does it run as root automatically?
[10:30] <magespawn> hi Kilos 
[10:30] <Squirm> magespawn: yes :/
[10:30] <magespawn> hmm
[10:31] <Squirm> "ssh-add" runs as root, where "ssh -vT git@bitbucket.org" is running as the user
[10:31] <Squirm> sorry, swapped around :D
[10:31] <Squirm> "ssh-add" runs as the user, where "ssh -vT git@bitbucket.org" is running as root
[10:33] <inetpro> NOTE: as of today (July 23, 2015), Ubuntu 14.10 is no longer supported... 
[10:35]  * Kilos no worry
[10:35] <Kilos> im happy with 14.04
[11:08] <mazal> Oe nice , I just discobered I have 10gig spare in the bank :)
[11:08] <mazal> discovered*
[11:27] <Kilos> sjoe
[11:28] <mazal> Hallo oom
[11:31] <mazal> Guys what is a good brand to look at when concidering an SSD ?
[11:31] <Kilos> Squirm  
[11:31] <Squirm> Kilos: ?
[11:31] <Kilos> can you help please
[11:32] <Squirm> With?
[11:32] <Kilos> Good day
[11:32] <Kilos> Does anybody know where Red Hat Administration Training is done. My
[11:32] <Kilos> organization would like to send someone for training.
[11:32] <Squirm> Where are they based?
[11:32] <Kilos> this is from some other country in africa
[11:32] <Kilos> i forget where
[11:33] <Squirm> http://www.redhat.com/en/services/training/locations-facilities#emea
[11:33] <Kilos> oh i think ghana lug
[11:33] <Kilos> ty
[11:33] <Kilos> or zim
[11:35] <Kilos> all these emails drive me nuts
[11:35] <Kilos> i should say more nuts
[11:38] <Squirm> Home time
[11:39] <Kilos> lekker
[12:14] <Kilos> hi qwebirc80545 
[12:15] <qwebirc80545> Hi Kilos, this is my first time here
[12:16] <Kilos> welcome to ubuntu-za
[12:16] <Kilos> if you need help just state what you need
[12:19] <stickyboy> We should reach out to LUGs in Asia.
[12:19] <stickyboy> :P
[12:19] <Kilos> lol we need to get all africa lugs first stickyboy 
[12:19] <stickyboy> k
[12:20] <Kilos> but the rest of the world will be next, dont worry
[12:20] <Kilos> do they make nice feta?
[12:22] <qwebirc80545> Thanks for the welcome. I will do ask and keep in touch as I am planning to to fully migrate to Ubuntu. I'm running a dual boot machine and two other machines and a server running Ubuntu. So I am excited  being here  
[12:23] <Kilos> great qwebirc80545 yu can start by getting a proper irc client like hexchat if you are using unity]
[12:23] <Kilos> then you done have to come via the site or browser
[12:23] <Kilos> dont
[12:24] <mazal> Hi qwebirc80545 , welcome :)
[12:24] <qwebirc80545> Great, I'll sure get the client, 
[12:24] <qwebirc80545> Hello mazal :D
[12:24] <Kilos> you know how to use the terminal
[12:25] <Kilos> then its simple
[12:25] <mazal> Hey , that's the best smile I got all day :)
[12:25] <Kilos> haha
[12:25] <mazal> Even oom Kilos gave me cold shoulder today :(
[12:25] <Kilos> never man
[12:25] <mazal> is
[12:25] <Kilos> :D
[12:26] <Kilos> i was busy in africa most likely
[12:26] <mazal> I am right here in africa as well
[12:26] <qwebirc80545> haha yes I am able to use terminal
[12:26] <Kilos> and im looking at the frree electricity video in between
[12:26] <Kilos> right qwebirc80545 type in
[12:26] <Kilos> sudo apt-get install hexchat
[12:27] <mazal> ok , time to start shutting down
[12:27] <qwebirc80545> I'll have to do that when I get home, mean time I'll copy that command , thanks kilos
[12:28] <mazal> Have a nice afternoon everyone
[12:28] <mazal> Bye for now
[12:28] <Kilos> cool qwebirc80545 we are here most of the time
[12:28] <Kilos> chers mazal 
[12:28] <Kilos> cheers
[12:28] <mazal> Cheers all
[12:28] <mazal> Cheers maaz
[12:29] <mazal> maaz bye
[12:29] <Maaz> Cheers mazal
[12:29] <mazal> daarsy :)
[12:29] <mazal> lol
[12:29] <Kilos> lol
[12:30] <qwebirc80545> Cheers mazal, @kilos That's awesome. Plus tomorrow there is a server I need to finish installing and configuring so I'm gonna  need advice on that
[12:30] <ThatGraemeGuy> haha
[12:30] <Kilos> well you have come to the right place
[12:30] <ThatGraemeGuy> tomorrow this place is a ghost town
[12:30] <Kilos> lol
[12:31] <Cryterion> I'll be around configuring a server tomorrow as well
[12:31] <Kilos> there you go
[12:31] <qwebirc80545> Well then I'll have to ask you guys now then, but Cryterion to my rescue :)
[12:31] <ThatGraemeGuy> sounds like work
[12:31] <ThatGraemeGuy> and I don't work on weekends
[12:32] <ThatGraemeGuy> well unless stuff breaks
[12:32] <Kilos> the ubuntu-za team always has answers
[12:32] <ThatGraemeGuy> but not this weekend
[12:32]  * Cryterion logs onto ThatGraemeGuy's server to go break it
[12:32] <ThatGraemeGuy> good luck with that :)
[12:33] <Kilos> many of us are here 7 days a week qwebirc80545 
[12:33] <Cryterion> So I must try? ;)
[12:33] <ThatGraemeGuy> it's your minetest game, be my guest
[12:33] <ThatGraemeGuy> lol
[12:33] <Cryterion> lol, I know
[12:33] <ThatGraemeGuy> there's nothing else on there to break
[12:33] <Kilos> haha
[12:37] <ThatGraemeGuy> have a good weekend everyone, it's beer o'clock
[12:38] <Cryterion> enjoy, I have to wait :(
[12:38] <qwebirc80545> As I am going to install a server, I can either install it as a virtual machine or dedicate a machine to operate only Ubuntu Server, right now I am thinking of installing Ubuntu desktop then run Ubuntu Server on a virtual machine. The idea is to host multiple website on those servers but I am concerned with regards to performance and maintenance 
[12:41] <Kilos> Cryterion  your turn
[12:42] <Cryterion> Just run with the desktop version, you can add in the extra packages to make it a full server
[12:42] <Cryterion> So it'll become a server with a gui
[12:43] <pieter2627> qwebirc80545: personal sites?
[12:43] <Kilos> i ran server on a seperate machine
[12:44] <Cryterion> Not sure yet how to add multiple sites yet, but I run a single .co.za domain on 14.04lts desktop
[12:44] <qwebirc80545> Both personal and non personal. Yes its going to be on a separate machine 
[12:45] <qwebirc80545> Apache is able to create virtual host for different websites
[12:45] <pieter2627> there might not be a reason to create a VM for each - VMs take a lot of resources
[12:45] <Cryterion> Yes apache can, just haven't done that yet
[12:46] <Cryterion> pieter2627 Virtual Hosts not VM's is what Apache does
[12:46]  * pieter2627 personally likes containers over VM - quick to build, move and use less resources
[12:47] <pieter2627> Cryterion: exactly, but sounded like he wanted to create a vm for each (or i am not reading properly)
[12:48] <Cryterion> Think he mean 1 machine with the desktop, and a VM for the server OS
[12:49] <pieter2627> 'host multiple website on those servers' threw me off
[12:49] <Cryterion> thought so :)
[12:49] <qwebirc80545> I tried the virtual host on a virtual server, but I wondered about VM 's for each website on a single desktop
[12:50] <Cryterion> that'll be a waste of resources as pieter said with multiple vm's
[12:52] <Cryterion> I would just let Apache handle the seperating of each site
[12:52] <pieter2627> rather use a VM for each service (mySQL, apache, etc.)
[12:53] <stickyboy> pieter2627: How do you use containers in production?
[12:53] <stickyboy> Buy a server on AWS or Linode and run containers on it?
[12:53] <stickyboy> SSH to the host and deploy containers?
[12:53] <stickyboy> I just can't wrap my head around it.
[12:54] <qwebirc80545> Cryterion That is what I need to know, so running mysql, apace etc as vm's won't waste resources?
[12:54] <stickyboy> Also, I hate the Docker jargon, branding, fanbois, etc. Ugh.
[12:54] <pieter2627> stickyboy: i only use containers for dev and home server
[12:54] <stickyboy> pieter2627: Ah.
[12:55] <Cryterion> this might help http://myownhomeserver.com/2012/12/how-to-create-multiple-websites-using-apache-xampp/
[12:56] <Cryterion> https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/vhosts/examples.html
[12:56] <pieter2627> stickyboy: but i have seen tools to move containers to productions servers effortlessly when i looked into containers
[12:57]  * pieter2627 remembers using webmin in his earlier days with apache... too bad that it is no longer an option
[12:58] <Cryterion> qwebirc80545 this could help you for the multiple MySQL servers https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/multiple-servers.html
[12:59] <stickyboy> pieter2627: Right now I'm into Ansible, templates, host and group variables, etc.
[12:59] <stickyboy> I think I'll just watch the container stuff evolve a bit more.
[13:00] <pieter2627> stickyboy: have no idea what any are
[13:00] <qwebirc80545> Thanks Cryterion, I would have been knocking my head all day and night about this. I'm clear headed now
[13:01] <Cryterion> qwebirc80545 The way I see it just passing through those sites is run 1 Apache Server, then multiple instances of MySQL, 1 for each site
[13:01] <Cryterion> yw :)
[13:02] <pieter2627> Cryterion: why multiple instances of MySQL?
[13:03] <Cryterion> 1 for each site 1 instance/server, each on it's own thread, rather than a vm running extra background stuff to run it
[13:03] <pieter2627> qwebirc80545: ubuntu server also has a minimal install option that is great for VMs
[13:04] <pieter2627> Cryterion: 1 VM, multiple instances?
[13:05] <Cryterion> a vm would make a new machine, needing a kernel, background io stuff, apache on each
[13:06] <Cryterion> Why run multiple vm's, multiple Apache servers when mysql only has to be multiple
[13:07]  * pieter2627 thinks one VM with multiple mySQL instances is great, just wanted to make it clear
[13:07] <qwebirc80545> So I would run apache with virtual hosts containing different sites and  multiple vm's with mysql on each one...
[13:08] <Cryterion> No, apache running, and just multiple instances of mysql
[13:08] <Cryterion> If you put mysql into a vm, i'll need it own apache server
[13:09] <stickyboy> Multiple MySQL databases... one instance...
[13:09] <Cryterion> All of it can run on a desktop ubuntu, no need for a vm
[13:11] <pieter2627> For a start i would suggest one machine for all like Cryterion just said
[13:11] <Cryterion> stickyboy I think rather multiple instances, as multiple databases would probably become multiple database to 1 site
[13:13] <stickyboy> Cryterion: Multiple instances means more overhead...
[13:14] <stickyboy> Just use naming prefixes for your databases: site1_blah, site1_omg
[13:14] <stickyboy> Seriously, it's what you are supposed to do.
[13:15] <Cryterion> qwebirc80545 maybe tryout what stickyboy is saying, ^^^^^
[13:15] <Cryterion> That being for MySQL
[13:15] <qwebirc80545> What if I need a fallover? Should it be multiple mysql?
[13:15] <stickyboy> qwebirc80545: Failover on another machine? Yes.
[13:17] <qwebirc80545> Ok I need to write this down
[13:19] <stickyboy> Well the failover thing is just common sense.
[13:20] <stickyboy> If attempting to protect from hardware failure, then you need to have a MySQL slave.
[13:20] <stickyboy> (on a separate machine)
[13:23] <qwebirc80545> Yes of course
[13:26] <qwebirc80545> I have read through the next meeting's agenda, and I'll signup
[14:00] <Kilos> qwebirc80545  welcome aboard
[14:00] <Kilos> best channel to be on hey
[14:05] <qwebirc80545> Thanks Kikos it is very helpful
[14:45] <Kilos> qwyou still here?
[14:46] <Kilos> you can join us you know
[14:46] <Kilos> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-za
[14:47] <Kilos> become part of the coolest community around
[14:48] <Kilos> aw
[14:48] <Kilos> oh well
[14:48] <Kilos> more is nog n dag
[14:49] <Kilos> sjoe inetpro jy nog nie huis toe nie?
[15:04] <Kilos> hi kulelu88 mazal 
[15:04] <Kilos> ohi Private_User 
[15:05] <mazal> hi
[15:16] <kulelu88> hello
[17:08]  * Cryterion waits patiently for Ubuntu server 15.04 to download
[17:10] <Private_User> hi Kilos
[17:20] <Kilos> ai!
[17:24] <mazal> oi!
[17:31] <inetpro> ui! 
[17:32] <Kilos> lol
[17:33] <mazal> ish!
[17:33] <Kilos> ish is an ubuntu guy in mauritius
[17:34] <Cryterion> eish!
[17:34] <Kilos> lol
[17:34] <Kilos> Cryterion  wht 15.04
[17:34] <inetpro> he is irish :-D 
[17:34] <Kilos> why
[17:35] <inetpro> I rish
[17:35] <Kilos> is server support longer?
[17:36] <Kilos> you should told the new guy we here dark times as well
[17:38] <Cryterion> 15.04 is latest stable, I wanted to go server only, anything above 15.04 is 64-bit, needed a 32-bit version
[17:39] <Cryterion> The newguy wanted a desktop and server, hence where the VM came in
[17:39] <Kilos> yeah but isnt it only 6 months support
[17:40] <mazal> 9
[17:40] <mazal> I think
[17:40] <Kilos> oi!
[17:40] <Cryterion> even if only 6months is fine for me now
[17:40] <Kilos> against 5 years for lts
[17:40] <Kilos> oh ok
[17:41] <Cryterion> It's a tryout for me, putting it on a seperate hdd so I can just swop out on the machine
[17:41] <Kilos> ok
[17:44] <Kilos> oh Cryterion 
[17:45] <Kilos> you going to use the scond drive as a vm from the first drive?
[17:45] <Kilos> second
[17:46] <Cryterion> nope, physical swop out
[17:46] <Kilos> o
[17:46] <Cryterion> machine can only hold the 1 hdd
[17:47] <Kilos> aw
[17:47] <Kilos> laptop?
[17:48] <Cryterion> I needed to start from a scratch install to setup iRedMail, so thought I'd try out server only this time
[17:48] <Kilos> ok
[17:48] <Cryterion> very mini pc, mecer nettop
[17:48] <Cryterion> the size of my to hands put together
[17:49] <Cryterion> two*
[17:49] <Kilos> wow
[17:49] <Kilos> ok now lets say
[17:50] <Kilos> if i put a second drive in a laptop in place of the dvdrom
[17:50] <Cryterion> physically won't fit
[17:50] <Kilos> could i install server on a vm there and use it
[17:51] <Kilos> oh wont it
[17:51] <Kilos> aw
[17:51] <Cryterion> vm is virtual, needs to run under the main os
[17:51] <Cryterion> you can't run the vm without the main os running
[17:51] <Kilos> oh cant it use another drive
[17:52] <Kilos> the vm i mean
[17:52] <Cryterion> yes can, for it's storage, but the other drive would have to mounted in the main os first
[17:53] <Kilos> yes
[17:53] <Kilos> so then it becomes like just another partition
[17:53] <Cryterion> yes
[17:54] <Cryterion> and you can allocate whatever space needed be the vm there
[17:54] <Kilos> cool
[17:55] <Cryterion> be back in a bit, need to go pickup my daughter
[18:15] <magespawn> good evening
[18:15] <Cryterion> evening
[18:18] <magespawn> how are you Cryterion ?
[18:23] <magespawn> that good, wow
[18:27] <magespawn> Maaz seen Kilos
[18:27] <Maaz> magespawn: Kilos was last seen 32 minutes and 34 seconds ago in #ubuntu-za on freenode [2015-07-24 10:54:28 PDT], and has been offline on freenode since 2015-07-24 11:02:14 PDT
[18:46] <inetpro> ai!
[19:01] <inetpro> wb Cryterion
[19:03] <Cryterion> tks inetpro
[19:04] <inetpro> MaNI: what's the difference?
[19:04] <Cryterion> L & I are different!!
[19:04] <inetpro> hmm...
[19:05] <inetpro> left and in?
[19:05] <Cryterion> maybe, not sure 
[19:07] <MaNI> someone was impersonating me (taking advantage of the two chars looking similar in certain fonts)
[19:07] <MaNI> so I registered it as my alt (for when I timeout) to prevent it happening again
[19:08] <inetpro> ah
[19:08] <MaNI> don't ever trust sans fonts for important stuff :)
[19:11] <inetpro> Cryterion: how's your installation going?
[19:15] <superfly> Ohi 
[19:16] <Cryterion> 15.04 gets stuck at ifup-wait-all-auto.service and can't do anything from there inetpro
 don't ever trust sans fonts for important stuff :)
[19:16] <inetpro> eish!
[19:16] <superfly> So true 
[19:17] <Cryterion> waiting for 14.04 to finish downloading, then gonna try that
[19:18] <Cryterion> can't even ssh into the 15.04, just refuses the connection, grrr
[19:18] <Private_User> evening all
[19:18] <Cryterion> hiya Private_User
[19:18] <Private_User> hi Cryterion
[19:20] <Cryterion> looks like he has inetpro blems, lol
[19:20] <inetpro> ai!
[19:21] <inetpro> looks like a known bug as well
[19:22] <Cryterion> will look later, anyway need to go for a bit to pick up son
[19:23] <inetpro> wb Private_User
[19:23] <Private_User> thanks inetpro
[19:23] <Private_User> my connection seems to be very slow at the moment
[19:23] <Private_User> getting ping responses of like over 3000ms
[19:24] <Private_User> and request time outs
[19:28] <Private_User> oh well I might as well bbl hopefully when I get back the connection has improved
[19:28] <Private_User> BBL people
[19:40] <mekiss> Hi all. Cryterion you already started with the installation? 
[19:41] <magespawn> bed time, good night all
[19:41] <Cryterion> mekiss, yes had completed the installation
[19:53] <kulelu88> whos in mauritius here?
[20:00] <Kilos> sigh
[20:11] <gremble> sup
[20:11] <Kilos> gremble  wb
[20:11] <gremble> How are you Kilos?
[20:11] <Kilos> just before i go to bed
[20:11] <Kilos> good ty and you?
[20:12] <gremble> I am well thank you
[20:12] <Kilos> im trying to remember how clever you are
[20:12] <gremble> Not very
[20:12] <gremble> :P
[20:12] <gremble> Why?
[20:12] <Kilos> who does soldering and stuff? not you?
[20:12] <gremble> No, I have never been very good at soldering
[20:13] <gremble> I don't have enough hands
[20:13] <Kilos> lol
[20:13] <gremble> I'd like to learn though
[20:13] <Kilos> i found how to make free power
[20:13] <Kilos> i will help you get soldering right
[20:13] <Kilos> its all in the temperature
[20:14] <Kilos> im gonna spam here with good links
[20:14] <Kilos> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOq9C3YSjKg
[20:14] <Kilos> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2vF--q3swQ&feature=youtu.be&t=8m53s
[20:14] <Kilos> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJDretlCt8g
[20:14] <Kilos> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e9XnP0jI38
[20:14] <Kilos> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ7I9XgaW3A
[20:14] <Kilos> wacth them and see if you keen
[20:14] <kulelu88> free as in free beer? 
[20:15] <Kilos> im going to start the hendershot fuelless generator as soon as i can get the caps and magnet
[20:15] <Kilos> free
[20:15] <Kilos> out the air
[20:15] <Kilos> them guys researchd teslas work and got it working
[20:16] <Kilos> should actually tweet and g+ and fb that before they have "accidents"\
[20:16] <gremble> "To date no successful device exists that will be allowed to be independently and credibly tested" Would be nice to see a paper published about it
[20:17] <Kilos> who can stop you doing stuff at home
[20:17] <gremble> No one
[20:17] <gremble> ofc
[20:17] <kulelu88> I don't know. Electricity from air doesn't sound plausible, considering how much we use
[20:17] <gremble> ^
[20:18] <Kilos> i will start the first one and let you know when it works
[20:18] <gremble> Please do
[20:18] <MaNI> that hendershot stuff is an age old scam :p though as long as you have fun and don't kill yourself I guess no harm
[20:18] <Kilos> the one guy uses 36 volts to make big power
[20:18] <gremble> I am scepticle, but I will certainly not dissuade you. I like being surprised :D
[20:19] <Kilos> but i want to do the first one then not need batteries as well
[20:19] <Kilos> when you got time watch the videos
[20:19] <Kilos> lots looking but could be well worth it
[20:20] <Kilos> if they arent fact then they cleverly sneaked power in where you cant see it
[20:21] <gremble> I'm a stickler for mathematics
[20:21] <Kilos> its all about using radio frequencies not actual ac or dc volts
[20:21] <superfly> By the way, we're still looking for developers
[20:21] <superfly> if anyone is interested in moving to Cape Town
[20:21] <Kilos> ohi superfly 
[20:21] <superfly> hi Kilos
[20:22] <kulelu88> Do you guys know how to loop through a nested dictionary? superfly ?
[20:23] <superfly> kulelu88: a dictionary in a dictionary? or how does it look?
[20:23] <kulelu88> dict['users'][X]['item1']. I want to loop through X
[20:24] <superfly> where X is changing?
[20:24] <superfly> for key, value in dict['users'].iteritems()
[20:24] <superfly> (or just items() if you're using Python 3)
[20:25] <Kilos> ok then all. sleep tight and keep warm, we 15°c max tomorrow
[20:26] <kulelu88> yeah, X is changing and I am making a fixed call on item1
[20:26] <kulelu88> I was learning about datetime today. what a weird lib it is
[20:27] <superfly> a lot less weird than other date time implementations
[20:27] <superfly> I think the only thing I find irritating is that there's no easy way to convert between a Python datetime object and a unix timestampp
[20:28] <gremble> submit a PR to python's datetime :P
[20:28] <superfly> but being able to do yesterday = datetime.now() - timedelta(hours=24)
[20:29] <kulelu88> I could use that line also. I need to make my script check the date once a day
[20:33] <kulelu88> gremble: lets move to cape town!!!
[20:33] <gremble> I'll be no good as a developer :x
[20:33] <kulelu88> we'll do this most of the summer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cGwBhgJecc
[20:33] <gremble> Therefore cape town has no good jobs
[20:34] <gremble> You mean sharkpunching?
[20:34] <superfly> gremble: but what do you want to do?
[20:34] <kulelu88> I think I'll be a shitty dev also. TDD and all that weirdness
[20:34] <superfly> kulelu88: TDD is actually really cool once you understand it, and you're not trying to retrofit some large obscene mess of code with tests
[20:35] <kulelu88> This may sound stupid, but do you need to write tests for variables if you declare them as var1_int? var2_string ?
[20:35] <kulelu88> I know you could easily make var1_int = "a", but how thick would 1 have to be to not see var1_int ?
[20:35] <superfly> why are you writing tests for variables? it seems a little silly to me?
[20:36] <kulelu88> that's part of TDD apparently. 
[20:36] <superfly> unit testing is about testing functions and methods
[20:36] <kulelu88> don't you need to test what the variables return?
[20:36] <superfly> kulelu88: a sort-of side effect of TDD is that you code becomes cleaner  and more modular
[20:36] <gremble> Hmm. I really like this mathematics business. So I want to see how far I can take it. But as I am sitting here I am working on a computational linear algebra library in C++ to sharpen my skill in C++ and programming something slightly less trivial than what I have been messing around with in Lisp and Haskell the past couple of weeks
[20:37] <superfly> gremble: ever delved into machine learning?
[20:37] <kulelu88> gremble needs to work for a bank like standard bank. 
[20:37] <superfly> kulelu88: what methods and functions return, sure. variables not so much
[20:37] <gremble> superfly: I've read some blog posts on it, but I will probably look at it more in an applicative sense when I do statistics again
[20:38] <superfly> (we need someone who can do or learn machine learning)
[20:38] <kulelu88> in order to test a function, you have to write a function right? what stops your testing function from failing? 
[20:39] <superfly> kulelu88: yes, but you predefine your inputs and outputs, and then make sure that the function you're testing works according to how you think it should be working
[20:39] <superfly> kulelu88: there are various caveats, and testing is not going to be perfect, but it's a whole lot better than untested code
[20:40] <superfly> I've worked with large codebases of both, and let me tell you, the TDD codebase was WAY less buggy
[20:40] <kulelu88> what is different in writing tests for a language like C#/Java over Python/Ruby ?
[20:40] <gremble> TDD - test driven development?
[20:40] <superfly> kulelu88: not much, from what I can tell
[20:40] <superfly> gremble: yes
[20:41] <gremble> Oh. That is the one of the better coding paradigms
[20:41] <superfly> kulelu88: there are various ways you can test things, and various scopes of testing too.
[20:41] <kulelu88> I recall someone saying something about the issue of dynamic languages having mutable types and you use TDD to make sure that your types become immutable
[20:41] <gremble> I usually make a main.cpp file that has the "expected results" of my code and just test it against my code
[20:42] <superfly> kulelu88: at our company we also do pair programming (which some folks like to call extreme programming), which helps to catch bugs and increase code quality
[20:42] <superfly> kulelu88: not really. you can still mess things up in a statically typed language
[20:43] <superfly> though I do understand that dynamically typed languages have the potential of having type-related bugs
[20:43] <kulelu88> Would that be useful though? I'd like to dabble in writing a library that can test types in dynamic languages
[20:43] <gremble> It *should* get caught by the compiler though
[20:43] <kulelu88> would be hard but fun
[20:44] <gremble> kulelu88: if I recall correctly, that is a phD thesis
[20:44] <gremble> :P
[20:44] <superfly> kulelu88: it's not too hard. just write a test to check the return value type
[20:44] <kulelu88> how so? gremble . Unless they are generalizing it at some higher-order mathematical level, which is where I "fekk off" back into the basement 
[20:45] <gremble> Sec, I might be lying
[20:45] <kulelu88> :P
[20:45] <kulelu88> I really like this: http://mypy-lang.org/
[20:46] <gremble> I fear I was incorrect.
[20:46] <gremble> Can't find the article I was reading
[20:46] <kulelu88> It must be a ruby-gem already
[20:46] <superfly> http://bin.snyman.info/phj8w
[20:47] <gremble> superfly, you guys use python, correct?
[20:47] <superfly> gremble: and C++, but the machine learning would be in Python
[20:47] <superfly> kulelu88: ^^ that's a simple test, it would catch incorrect errors
[20:48] <superfly> *incorrect types
[20:48] <kulelu88> this article: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1519 ? gremble 
[20:50] <Cryterion> NEVER EVER, connect a pc with win7 start on it to your network, grrrr
[20:50] <gremble> Hmm It may have been about type inference, but it wasn't a lambda-the-ultimate one
[20:50] <gremble> why Cryterion?
[20:50] <MaNI> haha, thats nothing, try with win xp :/
[20:51] <gremble> windows powershell is so slow
[20:51] <gremble> lol
[20:51] <Cryterion> gremble, my entire network kept crashing, and only while it was trying to get inet access
[20:51] <kulelu88> Thinking about it, even with some type-checking, what benefits will it have?
[20:54] <superfly> kulelu88: you talking about TDD, or type-checking variables?
[20:55] <kulelu88> superfly: type-checking. apparently, that is how pypy works?
[20:56] <superfly> I'm not really familiar with how PyPy works
[20:56] <kulelu88> I'm discussing it in #python
[20:56] <superfly> I don't think PyPy is statically typed though?
[20:57] <kulelu88> it's a JIT IIRC
[20:58] <gremble> Stealing machine learning textbooks from the internet would be so much quicker if mweb wasn't so slow
[20:58] <kulelu88> eeuuww mweb
[20:59] <gremble> I'm poor. It's the internet that poor people can have
[20:59] <gremble> I'm just stoked that it isn't dail-up
[20:59] <gremble> You have to pay R30 extra to get dail-up
[21:00] <kulelu88> I had dial-up P2P speeds last night. fekking ISP with their new shaping policy, even after 12am
[21:00] <gremble> Guys, guys. I don't know if you know; but it is cold. Like really
[21:01] <superfly> earlier I could see my breathe... in my bedroom.
[21:01] <gremble> What you need is a heater
[21:02] <kulelu88> taking a dump right now would be absolute joy
[21:02] <gremble> It's too cold to take your pants off though
[21:04] <kulelu88> what if you were with the most attractive woman you'd ever and will ever lay your eyes on?
[21:04] <superfly> I already am. She's my wife.
[21:04] <gremble> get with her under a blanket. Not pull my pants off to sit on a cold porcelain seat
[21:05] <kulelu88> superfly: based on how a dynamic language works, can it really do type inference if the code is interpreted line by line or would some checking basically be building a compiler on top of python?
[21:09] <superfly> kulelu88: Python is dynamically typed, not PHP or JavaScript which change depending on how you're using it, the time of day, and the weather in Timbuktoo right now.
[21:10] <superfly> kulelu88: if you set a variable to be a string, and then you use it like and int, Python is going to throw a TypeError
[21:10] <superfly> granted, at runtime, not compile time, but if you're using TDD, you'll pick that up WAY before production
[21:12] <kulelu88> that's true as well. 
[21:14] <kulelu88> superfly: I hope you guys become a sponsor for PyCon. I think PyConZA 2015 may be epic
[21:15] <superfly> I've been asked if I don't want to speak at PyCon. Not really sure I want to.
[21:15] <superfly> And I would prefer PyCon being in Cape Town
[21:16] <gremble> Why don't you want to talk at pycon?
[21:17] <superfly> I'm not a public speaker
[21:17] <kulelu88> codes in the debian dungeons with poettering
[21:17] <gremble> I thought about making a numpy presentation at one of the SFD's because I vehemently dislike matlab, so I want everyone to use numpy/scipy
[21:18] <superfly> gremble: do that, please do
[21:18] <kulelu88> PyCon is that place gremble . R300 ticket for you as a student
[21:19] <gremble> Your ML thing gave me an idea. Going to play around and see if I can make something interesting
[21:19]  * superfly doesn't even know what he would talk about
[21:19] <superfly> gremble: ML?
[21:19] <gremble> kulelu88: at pycon everyone already knows about python, secondly I don't have R300 to spend on shit :P
[21:19] <gremble> Machine Learning
[21:20] <superfly> oh right
[21:20] <superfly> have fun!
[21:20] <superfly> by the way guys, don't forget to save up for tickets to DebConf in Cape Town next year.
[21:21] <kulelu88> superfly: using your suggested way to loop through my nested dict, I get this error: AttributeError: 'list' object has no attribute 'iteritems'
[21:21] <gremble> Are these software conferences interesting?
[21:21] <gremble> I've only been to an information science conference and that was pretty bland
[21:21] <superfly> kulelu88: oh, it's a list inside a dictionary?
[21:22] <superfly> kulelu88: then just for value in dict['user']
[21:22] <kulelu88> gremble: according to what I see on the webz, the chilling together and smalltalk is more interesting than the conference-talks
[21:22] <gremble> Ah
[21:23] <superfly> debconf also has a debcamp the week before, which is a hackathon type thing
[21:23] <kulelu88> superfly: how would I access the key then? My nested dict is basically a JSON file that has the user info stored one level lower
[21:23] <kulelu88> let me paste you my JSON
[21:23] <superfly> kulelu88: you've got a dict in a list in a dict
[21:24] <superfly> kk
[21:24] <superfly> for user in dict['users']:
[21:24] <superfly>     print 'Name:', user['name']
[21:25] <superfly> Assuming: dict['users'][0]['name']
[21:26] <kulelu88> superfly: https://pastee.org/3p5mk
[21:26] <kulelu88> I want to loop through each name
[21:27] <kulelu88> and check it's value
[21:27] <superfly> right, so as I said, a dict within a list within a dict
[21:28] <superfly> then just loop through the list and check the value of the dict
[21:28] <kulelu88> fekk, JSON converts terribly into Python
[21:28] <superfly> actually, it converts the same
[21:29] <gremble> json is not terribly goodlooking itself :P
[21:30] <gremble> It's not really supposed to be
[21:31] <kulelu88> whoa, shit it worked, and I understood how as well
[21:31] <kulelu88> a dict within a list within a dict
[21:32] <kulelu88> so while using "value" looping through the dict, I took that same "value" as "value"[item] :/
[21:37] <superfly> http://bin.snyman.info/ceegv
[21:37] <kulelu88> why do you say u'users' ?
[21:37] <gremble> with your lips?
[21:38] <kulelu88> why not how
[21:38] <kulelu88> :/
[21:38] <kulelu88> haskell programmers :/
[21:38] <gremble> Why did I read how?
[21:38] <gremble> I am retarded
[21:39] <superfly> kulelu88: because there's a "users" in the data you gave me
[21:39] <kulelu88> aah ok
[21:39] <gremble> This textbook uses wordpad as an editor
[21:39] <gremble> I'm snickering
[21:40] <superfly> gremble: I'd probably be throwing. That text book. Out the window.
[21:40] <gremble> Just because they're shit with using tools doesn't mean they're shit with their mathematics
[21:41] <superfly> If they're mathematicians, OK, but if they were developers...
[21:42] <kulelu88> at least they're not asking you to setup a netbeans environment 
[21:42] <kulelu88> hashtag minimalists!
[21:42] <gremble> This is most certainly not written by developers
[21:43] <superfly> I've recently started being quite productive in VIM
[21:43] <superfly> I don't really use PyCharm anymore.
[21:43] <gremble> dude. I discovered emacs
[21:43] <gremble> D:
[21:43] <superfly> gremble: they say there's a text editor somewhere in there. I still have my doubts.
[21:44] <gremble> There is? It is an amazing lisp interpreter though
[21:44] <kulelu88> I tried light-table, then realized that it was a node-webkit application and was laggy compared to Sublime, so I'm waiting for limetext to become a thing
[21:44] <superfly> kulelu88: have you tried Atom?
[21:44] <kulelu88> same problem as light table, they use electron, another javascript beauty
[21:44] <kulelu88> is it fast though? 
[21:44] <kulelu88> I *could* try it
[21:44] <superfly> It was pretty responsive the last time I used it
[21:45] <kulelu88> *makes note to try it*
[21:45] <superfly> There's also VSCode
[21:45] <superfly> But I don't think that's open source
[21:45] <gremble> it is also nodejs though (atom)
[21:45] <superfly> gremble: yes, I know.
[21:45] <superfly> my personal opinion is that NodeJS is being used for WAY too much.
[21:46] <kulelu88> or I could try writing 1 using Vala D;
[21:46] <superfly> (I'm not entirely sure why I would want JS on my server)
[21:46] <kulelu88> the MEAN stack
[21:48] <superfly> MongoDB, EmberJS, AngularJS and NodeJS?
[21:48] <kulelu88> there's a good reason for it though, besides Node being hard to understand as an async thing
[21:48] <kulelu88> MongoDB, ExpressJS, AngularJS and NodeJS
[21:48] <gremble> Database people seem to dislike mongo :P
[21:48] <kulelu88> because Node isn't a framework but express is :D
[21:48] <superfly> I want to cry every time I use Async in Angular.
[21:49] <kulelu88> Angular takes a while to learn, but I liked it over Ember
[21:50] <kulelu88> Nomanini sounds like a place where there's no "we need some Java here at least" :D
[21:52] <superfly> If you say "Java" in the offices, you'll hear the sound of 6 groans
[21:52] <gremble> only 6?
[21:52] <kulelu88> Do you know what Vala is? superfly 
[21:53] <superfly> there's only 6 developers
[21:53] <superfly> kulelu88: Sorta, I had a brief look at it a while back
[21:53] <kulelu88> gremble and I are number 8 and 12 at nomanini
[21:53] <gremble> what?
[21:53] <kulelu88> Have you seen this: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Genie . Cool ehh
[21:57] <superfly> GTK. ugh.
[21:57] <superfly> There's also Cython, for writing Python that compiles to C
[21:58] <kulelu88> is that the same though? Cython doesn't sound fun
[21:58] <gremble> Python from python.org is reference python implemented in C. So that also compiles to C
[21:59] <superfly> Well, Cython takes Python, converts it to C, compiles it, and makes it a C-exension for Python
[21:59] <superfly> so you can write your code in Python (or even in C-like Python for better optimisation), but have the speed of C
[22:00] <gremble> That is quite neat
[22:00] <superfly> I've never used it, never really needed to
[22:01] <gremble> I might be better off just writing the C insted
[22:01] <gremble> instead*
[22:01] <gremble> xD
[22:04] <kulelu88> that's my gripe too gremble . Thus, my quest for Python at the low level
[22:04] <kulelu88> did you guys write your own compiler for the embedded device? superfly 
[22:04] <superfly> kulelu88: no. we use GCC
[22:09] <gremble> This ipython notebook even has the unfortunate way of making plots a new window like matlab. Probably to let engineers feel at home
[22:09] <gremble> Luckily there are no semi-colon's though
[22:10] <superfly> Time for me to hit the hay folks. Night!
[22:10] <gremble> Cheers superfly 
[22:12] <kulelu88> cheers
[22:17] <gremble> kulelu88: Why are you learning python? :o
[22:18] <kulelu88> ehh, I think I am at the implementation level now . no more learning for loops for me :/ 
[22:18] <kulelu88> gremble: is jy n bietjie dronk?
[22:19] <gremble> I don't believe so, why? I do remeber that you are a programmer or do some sort of programming, just curious as to why something new
[22:23] <kulelu88> I'm confused by the "why something new" part. Is that a reference to "why do you want a low level python?" ??
[22:24] <gremble> No python. I don't recall you being a python dev? (But it is possible that I have had a concussion in my sleep and am suddenly retarded, because I've been mentally slow the entire day)
[22:27] <kulelu88> Python is my go-to language. 
[22:27] <kulelu88> I was building a bot in it
[22:27] <gremble> Oh
[22:27] <gremble> TIL
[22:27] <gremble> my bad
[22:28] <kulelu88> TIL I also just found out what TIL is
[22:29] <gremble> xD
[22:29] <gremble> This machine learning stuff is fun
[22:29] <kulelu88> I think I'm going to try installing Vala and Genie via docker in a little while
[22:29] <gremble> Right now I am just doing mathematical modelling in python
[22:29] <gremble> But it is pretty cool :o
[22:31] <kulelu88> you can earn about $80 per hour (with the right company) doing data science work
[22:31] <gremble> If I can do it remotely that would be amazing
[22:32] <kulelu88> you need a bit of experience though. granted, YOU probably don't, but someone will say you do
[22:32] <gremble> I probably do anyway
[22:32] <gremble> But the internet is full of data
[22:32] <gremble> And I am full of science
[22:32] <gremble> :D
[22:33] <gremble> Besides, I am so I can find a researcher at UP that could also do with an RE that can do some data manipulation
[22:34] <gremble> RA* Research assistant
[22:34] <kulelu88> I know a guy
[22:35] <kulelu88> :D
[22:35] <gremble> Haha As soon as I can model the shit out of everything, ima hit you up
[22:36] <gremble> :P
[22:37] <kulelu88> I need to try this out also. Data science is fun. I'd like to make economic models
[22:39] <kulelu88> My first project would be "The nerd hot babe detector"
[22:39] <kulelu88> *"The (made for nerds) hot babe detector"
[22:40] <gremble> Haha
[22:40] <gremble> A corollary is the crazy girl detector
[22:41] <kulelu88> or "based on how hot she is, here is the probability of her being vain"
[22:42] <gremble> That sounds more like data science
[22:42] <gremble> Although you would have to find an objective definition of "hotness"
[22:42] <kulelu88> lucky there's no opposite genders lurking here, otherwise they'd tweet about us being bros here :D
[22:43] <kulelu88> I think based on weight, height, hair colour, we could classify woman who *may* be attractive
[22:43] <kulelu88> oh and bust
[22:43] <gremble> Well, that should be a clear indication that it is a bad idea 
[22:43] <gremble> xD
[22:44] <kulelu88> *women
[23:15] <gremble> wow
[23:15] <gremble> It is quite late already
[23:15] <gremble> :o
[23:23] <gremble> I'm going to bounce