bluesabreochosi: email to the ML I and anything else you wanna do :)02:08
Noskcajochosi, ok. Would you be able to make it? I'll just use an sgt icon till then05:48
ali1234poster of this screenshot claims it is numix https://www.reddit.com/r/unixporn/comments/35h9a3/xfce_back_to_xfce/05:56
ali1234why does my system look completely different when i set theme to numix?05:56
ali1234for example my system, thunar with numix: http://i.imgur.com/8yO2ubs.png05:57
ali1234hmm... because it's not numix at all, it's adwaita06:06
ali1234next question: why is the bluetooth icon not mono on 15.04?06:10
flocculantochosi: can you admin me on https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-testers 08:37
flocculantso I can mail testers from LP :)08:37
Noskcajsgt-puzzles-launcher 0.0.1 has been uploaded10:29
flocculantNoskcaj: nice one :)10:30
bluesabregood job Noskcaj :D10:31
NoskcajIt's pretty crap, but thanks.10:31
Noskcajbig TODO list, but all it needs to be archive-safe is an icon.10:31
Noskcajand us choosing how we want to handle the desktop file hiding10:32
ochosiflocculant: done11:03
ochosiali1234: the icons are numix, the gtk theme is adwaita11:04
ochosibluesabre: ok, i'll see what i can do11:04
flocculantochosi: ta :)11:04
ochosiflocculant: also, with all the work knome has put into our new status tracker, i hope that'll motivate you to use it again over trello ;)11:05
flocculantwell 11:05
flocculantwe'll see :)11:05
flocculantochosi: LP is ok - but I can't for instance - tell it a date I want to do something and have it remind me ;)11:09
flocculantalso need something actually readable to send testers too 11:09
knomeflocculant, i'm just setting up reminders for open work items you can get every day11:34
flocculantright, not quite what I meant - but I guess others might like that 11:37
knomei acknowledge it isn't exactly what you want11:37
knomemaybe we can set up something like what you want too11:38
knomebut what was the comment re: readable for testers?11:38
flocculantnot sure how we could get due dates onto LP 11:38
knomethe tracker can handle this and that.11:38
knomeand we can make it handle more11:38
flocculantreading the dev list back in June - qa was discussing with some testers how to get info to them - was m/l and trello 11:39
flocculantthat's what I was referring too 11:39
knomecan you point me to the thread or summarize it again?11:39
flocculantand forward from there 11:41
knomeright, that thread11:42
knomewell it went to nonsense quickly11:42
flocculantwhen doesn't it11:44
knomewhen you send a mail and nobody replies to it? :P11:44
flocculantha ha ha 11:44
flocculantanyway - the long and short of it is that lp and blueprints isn't the place to do that sort of thing :)11:45
flocculantand mailing list comes up short really, so until I know of something else that can be used ... 11:45
knomelikely not, because there isn't any single actionable item11:45
knomewell, bbl11:46
knomewife wants the laptop and then she has other tasks assigned to me11:46
flocculantha ha ha 11:46
knomelet's pick this up when i get back11:46
bluesabreochosi: thanks12:00
bluesabreochosi: anything in particular you want in a very near menulibre release?12:04
bluesabregoing to improve pantheon and plank integration12:04
bluesabresince I've seen some distress in my google search subscription :)12:05
knomeflocculant, so i understand what you'd like $software to do, but what it is for the testers?12:45
flocculantsomewhere easy for them to read foo and bar basically12:55
flocculanttoying with a couple of ideas - possibly revamp x.org qa page(s) with a bit more detail, or if I have sufficient time to fight ubuntu wiki maybe there 12:56
knomethe ubuntu wiki seems to be the slowest out there now12:57
knomeLP has gotten a datacentre move and timeouts have been reduced12:57
knomeso it's actually pretty good now12:57
flocculantlp? 12:58
flocculantbecause the wiki is slower than ever 12:58
knomeyes, LP12:59
flocculantlong and short at the moment is I'm not completely sure what I need as I'm not completely sure what I'm going to be doing :)12:59
flocculantI just know that LP is not the right place for it :)13:00
knomein a way, the mailing list sounds like the right place13:00
knomeit's well archived, and you can do updates as often as you wish13:00
knomeof course, it doesn't necessarily reach the testers the way we wanted13:01
knomebut then what will?13:01
flocculantstill not sure m/l is right13:01
knomei mean, the technology doesn't bring the users13:01
flocculantyou can't actually update things - all you can do is resend with something else13:02
flocculantknome: ofc not :)13:02
knomebut then if it's so much in flux, something like etherpad might just be the right choice13:02
knomei know it sucks people need to have an LP account...13:02
knomebut tbh, they need that to do pretty much anything13:03
flocculantyea - and of course you have to wait to be added to the team 13:03
knomeif that seems to be the bottleneck, i can volunteer to admin the team too13:03
flocculantI'd rather have something that people can *just* look at easily - and for that type of thing trello appears to be easiest 13:03
knomewhat i like pad > trello is the ownership colors13:04
flocculantyea - that's a useful thing13:04
knomeand you also have the chat there13:04
knomebut yeah, it would be perfect if you could see without account13:05
ochosii guess you can set pads up like that, just not the *buntu pad13:06
knomeyes, you can set up pads like anybody can edit13:06
flocculantdidn't think of that tbh13:06
flocculant*other* pads13:06
ochosibluesabre: nothing in particular from my side for menulibre13:07
flocculantnot that it's likely to happen - with trello as it is set up - random people can read but not edit13:07
flocculantso no chance of random graffiti to clear up etc13:08
flocculantthough - with ~10 testers it'd not take long to ask who did it :D 13:08
flocculantthe end result needs to be easy for testers to just check what's needed - I'm not overly concerned with how much work is in it for me tbh13:09
knomeflocculant, with that amount it's not too hard to get them to register an LP account ;)13:09
flocculantnot sure what LP has to do with it? 13:12
knomenvm :P13:12
flocculantunless you're referring to buntu pad13:13
flocculantright - still not sure I'm liking pad vs trello for what I anticipate 13:13
knomeone option would be to make ~xubuntu-testers a member of ~ubuntu-etherpad -> all testers get the access automatically13:14
knomei'm not opposed to you using trello, i'm just wondering if we could get it all in one place13:14
flocculantif it works out that we can I've not got an issue with using something else 13:15
flocculantnothing is set in stone13:15
knomecould the information be in the ISO tracker somehow?13:16
knome(or packages where appropriate)13:16
flocculantwhat I'm really after is working kinks out between now and end of wily cycle so it's all in place and working for the LTS cycle13:16
flocculantnah - trackers even further away than blueprint is :)13:18
flocculantimagine somewhere *we* can write - people test this13:18
flocculantand then change it tomorrow13:18
flocculantwith generic information as well 13:19
knometracker could be able to do that13:19
knomethere's the notice board for front page13:19
knomewhy not for product families13:19
ochosiknome: but the pad isnt much better than trello for the tracker, no?13:20
knomeochosi, right13:20
knomeochosi, otoh, the ISO tracker would be better because people need to go there to report tests anyway13:20
knomeso avoids extra steps13:20
ochosiis that one still actively maintained/developed?13:21
flocculantknome: the tracker is just too unwieldy - I'm obviously not making the agility I want plain enough :)13:21
flocculanttalking of which - need to sort tracker admin out with nick 13:22
flocculantI don't particularly want to use *anything* - but for what I anticipate/envisage - trello seems the best fit for it13:23
knomeochosi, there are people who have done updates for it lately13:31
knomei have more tasks incoming.13:32
knomesee you later.13:32
flocculantheh - cya later :)13:33
ochosihf knome 13:34
ali1234ristretto won't let me zoom an image to more than 50.5% ...14:32
ali1234in fact it won't let the image be bigger than the window... ever14:35
ochosi"ristretto: italian for 'restricted'" (in this case zooming) ;)14:36
ali1234this is a bug though right?14:37
ali1234the "1:1" button just does nothing...14:37
flocculantI just zoomed something to 400% - and then back to 100% with the '1' button14:38
ali1234http://i.imgur.com/9ATHdff.png this is the image14:38
flocculantsaved that and ristretto works fine with that too, though it does stop zooming at 400% 14:41
ochosiknome: started some trial on a greybird a11y xfwm4 theme, if you have time we can discuss how far to take the a11y aspect19:48
jjfrv8ochosi, I've made the requested changes to chapter 1 and finished the draft of chapter 2. They should be ready for your review.19:54
ochosijjfrv8: nice! what's left from your pov?19:59
jjfrv8I thought I needed to work through the rest of the chapters that were copied over to the wiki. Unless you don't think they're all needed.20:00
ochositbh i haven't looked recently20:06
jjfrv8Using Removable Media and Preferences shouldn't take too much work. 20:11
jjfrv8But as I mentioned earlier, the plugins stuff seems to be outdated and I don't know what's accurate about them anymore.20:12
ochosijjfrv8: k, i'll try to review the first two chapters asap20:47
=== torstehu_ is now known as torstehu
knomeochosi, sure21:38
NoskcajHow should i hide the sgt-puzzles desktop files? Just a postinst that adds a bunch of NoDisplays ?22:09
ochosiNoskcaj: i'd do it like that but it might be best to ask bluesabre, he has more xp with menu and desktop file spec22:14
bluesabreNoskcaj: there's probably no good way to really do it outside of making them no-display22:23
ochosioh, and there he is :)22:23
ochosibluesabre: i would second this bugreport/patch/suggestion btw: https://bugs.launchpad.net/catfish-search/+bug/147640122:24
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1476401 in Catfish "Missing GenericName" [Undecided,New]22:24
knomeochosi, if you didn't notice, i'm here too ;)22:24
ochosiknome: yeah yeah22:24
* ochosi pats knome on the head22:24
knomejust saying, i'm not in a rush22:24
bluesabreochosi: makes sense22:24
bluesabrebut catfish is next week22:24
bluesabresilly simon22:24
ochosioh ofc ;))22:24
ochosiknome: well you could start with a draft for a blog post/announcement for xfpanel-switch. i gotta head to bed soon tonight, but i guess i could finalise it tomorrow ;)22:25
knomei thought you wanted to talk about greybird a11y :P22:26
ochosiyeah, i can quickly tell you what i had in mind22:26
knomeif you think it's worth it22:26
knome(instead of actually having time to sit down and discuss about it)22:26
ochosisince an a11y gtk theme is a lot of work and there's not enough time for me to work on that this cycle i thought i'd just do more variations of the xfwm4 theme and we could just ship all of them22:27
ochosione of them can be found in the xfwm4-refresh branch22:27
ochosianother one will get pushed to xfwm4-a11y22:27
ochosifor a11y i considered making it highcontrast, but i'm not 100% sure of that now22:28
ochosimaybe just a thicker-border greybird xfwm4 version22:28
knomethicker border == bigger buttons would be a good start22:28
knomemaybe the inside gradient could be hinting more towards white at the top22:28
knomewell, the gradient that we'd introduce22:29
ochosiif you have time to check it out now, i can quickly push what i have22:29
knomeok, if you remind me how to get the branch22:29
bluesabrego to tree, break off branch22:30
bluesabre3. smack bluesabre with said branch for being a troll22:30
ochosiknome: git clone $repo && git checkout xfwm4-a11y22:32
ochosibluesabre (and everyone else) feel free to take a look too22:32
ochosiwouldnt mind some feedback on that one22:32
knomewas the font size controlled by xfwm themes?22:33
knomeor just user?22:33
ochosijust a user setting22:34
knomefirst comments/thoughts:22:34
knomethe active/inactive window menu button coloring is weird22:34
ochosiwhich sucks a bit, cause the title vertical offset is "hardcoded" (or at least not in very user-friendly place)22:34
knomei would expect them to be the other way around really22:35
bluesabreochosi: whats the repo in this case?22:35
knomewell, the bg color22:35
ochosibluesabre: normal greybird repo22:35
knomebluesabre, https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird22:35
bluesabrestupid me22:35
ochosiknome: yeah, those buttons i haven't touched22:36
knomeanother thing is that i'd up the size of the button icons22:36
ochosifor now i'm mostly curious whether you think the size is enough22:36
ochosior whether you like this sort of hover-style22:36
ochosiwhich makes the buttons a bit more discoverable i think22:36
knomei'm not a fan of that hover-style22:36
ochosii'd have to redraw them potentially anyway22:36
knomebut for a11y...22:36
knomei don't know22:36
ochosiyeah, this is not the new default look22:36
knomemaybe it'd help more if they were visible at all time22:36
knomeeven slightly22:36
ochosiyeah, that's another option22:36
knomeeven if that isn't too accessible22:36
knomebut some highlight for the button area22:37
ochosii could just make them look like any other gtk button22:37
knomethen for hover, more white for the bg22:37
knomemmh, why not22:37
knomesomething like that might work22:37
ochosishouldn't be too hard22:37
knomei don't know if that much padding is helpful between the buttons22:37
knomemaybe it doesn't look so bad when/if they have the borders visible at all times22:37
ochosii guess we'll know when they aren't flat anymore22:37
knomeand really, make the icons inside larger22:38
knometheir color is good IMO22:38
ochosii'd just do the same padding as with the rest of the theme / buttons22:38
ochosifor starters at least22:38
ochosimhm, was thinking about that too22:38
bluesabrethat looks nice22:38
ochosii made the borders 3px btw22:38
ochosibumped from 1px22:38
knomeyep, that's good22:39
knomecould be even 422:39
knomeor 522:39
ochosibluesabre: feel free to check out the xfwm4-refresh branch too22:39
ochosiknome: yeah, that's what i was wondering. how far should i push that22:39
knomeagain, it's a11y22:39
ochosiyeah, so maybe 4 or 5 then22:39
knomehow much is enough to hit that comfortably *every time* (for us at least)22:39
knomeit should be frustration-free22:39
knomeso on the more minor issues22:40
knomei would make the padding between the button borders and window borders smaller22:40
knomeimo they can be pretty close to the edge22:40
knomeor is that exactly the handle that's taking the space there too?22:40
ochosiyeah, probably, but that again will be something to see when they're not flat anymore22:41
knomeat least one thing to fix:22:41
knomemake the padding to top the same as to left22:41
knomeor right22:41
knomelooks weird now22:41
ochosii'll try to quickly fix up the buttons so we can get a better impression of that22:42
ochosialso gotta fix the style22:43
ochosinot sure i like those alternative symbols22:43
knomeno hurry for me :P22:43
knomeright, that might be confusing too22:43
knomeand it's still greybird, so consistency++22:44
bluesabreochosi: seems like the menu is quite a bit over22:45
ochosiwow weird22:45
knomecan confirm that22:45
ochosibut yeah22:45
ochosithe problem is fairly obvious22:46
ochosiwhen looking at the theme22:46
ochosiso no worries, i'll fix that22:46
ochosithis is more of a sketch tbh22:46
knomelike a python sketch?22:46
bluesabrenot again!22:46
knomeyes again!22:46
* bluesabre dies22:46
knomehe's pining for the fjords22:47
ochosipull again22:47
knomeyeah, i would likely put them closer to each other22:48
knomeand make a more prominent hover style22:48
ochosithe hover style is currently very close to the gtk buttons22:48
ochosior the same22:48
knomeright, but that likely needs fixing too once we get there22:48
ochosiright, but that's still far away :)22:49
knomesure, but let's set the standard22:49
ochosii thought consistency++ ;)22:49
knomethis way we can also get feedback on whether it's too bright22:49
knomeor if it isn't bright enough22:49
knomeso we have time to adjust22:49
ochosifirst i wanna get the button size and all that right22:50
ochosithen we can fiddle with hover styles i'd say22:50
knomejust saying since you wanted feedback, eh?22:50
ochosiotherwise i always have to go back and mod everything22:50
ochosiyeah yeah ;)22:50
ochosibluesabre: there is some weird gtk3 mechanism that makes my touchpad constantly select or grab stuff, have you noticed any of that at all?22:52
knomei like how the menu button looks on the inactive window22:52
ochosibluesabre: even when i just wanna move the cursor around with one finger22:52
knomeif we had that and the fg color of the button on the active window...22:52
ochosiisn't that too dark though?22:52
knomethat would set the buttons off just enough from the wm22:52
knomei don't know22:53
knomei just like how it looks22:53
knomea11y doesn't need to mean it looks like a turd22:53
bluesabreochosi: more things (toolbars) are grabbable in gtk322:53
ochosiknome: ok pull that in22:55
knomethat looks good imo22:56
knomenow th fg might need to be a bit darker22:56
knomebut that's fine really22:56
ochosithe gradient seems a bit wrong to me22:56
ochosiseems to go lighter toward the bottom22:56
knomedoesn't it?22:57
ochosiwhich is a bit odd with the rest of the buttons of the theme doing the opposite22:57
bluesabreDid you reduce the contrast of the text?22:57
knomebluesabre, with the xfwm theming? :P22:57
ochosibluesabre: yeah, also just noticed that i get erroneous text-selection in mousepad-gtk3 with my touchpad. really weird and only gtk3 related22:57
bluesabrethe xfwm font seems lighter than before22:58
bluesabremaybe not22:58
ochosimaybe, not sure22:58
ochosii would make it darker anyway22:58
knomeochosi, it looks like it's lighter on the bottom because it is22:58
ochosithe active one at least22:58
ochosiknome: yeah i know, but that's what feels wrong to me22:58
knomei'm fine with flipping it over22:58
knomeand an idea:22:58
knomemaybe the close/menu buttons could have that lighter style22:58
knomeif you want22:59
knometo emphasize their special meaning22:59
knomemaybe it isn't the best thing to overthink/-do this tonight22:59
knomego get some sleep :)23:00
knomegenerally, this is a good direction23:00
knome(generally meaning, everything that i didn't say isn't perfect is good, eg. nothing)23:00
ochosiok cool23:00
ochosiwas mainly going for the general feedback of whether you agree with this direction23:01
ochosias i said, all the buttons will likely have to be redrawn entirely23:01
ochosii'm not happy with how that theme is done atm23:01
knomeit's good for me, now we need some people who actually needs a11y stuff23:01
knomebut let's improve it to be better first23:01
ochosianybody here knows some old folks? :23:01
knomeochosi, your mom23:02
knomeba-dum tsshh23:02
ochosino seriously, thing is i don't wanna go highcontrast-a11y23:02
ochosijust a bit more easy to hit everything23:02
knomeooh, he's a hitter23:02
knomeknow what i mean, know what i mean23:02
knomeet cetera23:03
ochosiindeed, i do :)23:03
knomei know you do..23:04
knomemaybe we can get folks around ubuntu help us with this23:04
knomeget it cycled in the UWN23:04
knomecanonical design folks?23:04
knomemight be a stretch, but who knows23:04
ochosiright, why not23:04
ochosibut they might go too far in the real a11y direction23:04
ochosiwhich means maybe 2x the size and contrsat23:05
knomewell, we would only ask for feedback23:05
knomebut then again23:05
knomei guess it depends on the definition23:05
knomeanother one just needs bigger borders23:05
knomeanother one more contrast23:05
ochosibluesabre: i dunno why you never mentioned this hideous theming artifact: http://i.imgur.com/lYNAZvZ.png23:05
knomeit's endless..23:05
knomeso the only way to catch-all is to make a catch-all, "real" a11y theme23:06
ochosibluesabre: i guess i should really try to get gtkentries and all other widgets at the same size/padding. this really sucks23:06
ochosiknome: yeah, i don't wanna do that23:06
ochosithere's already highcontrast for that23:06
knomeyeah, me neither23:06
knomebut the balance is important to find23:06
knomeand for that, guesses are meh23:06
knomei could probably ask a few non-technical people to evaluate it23:07
knomeread: relatives23:07
knomeand maybe somebody else23:07
ochosianyway, will get some sleep now23:07
knomelet's think about that when it's current23:07
knomeoki, good night23:07
ochosinight everyone23:07
knomehe's just resting23:08
knomeno worries23:08
ochosibluesabre: oh also, please add ctrl+q as a shortcut to menulibre for quitting23:13
bluesabreochosi: will do23:38
bluesabreochosi: still around?23:39
bluesabrethat theming bug you mentioned is really me not using widgets correctly, and is fixed in the 2.1 branch23:39

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