[02:08] ochosi: email to the ML I and anything else you wanna do :) [05:48] ochosi, ok. Would you be able to make it? I'll just use an sgt icon till then [05:56] poster of this screenshot claims it is numix https://www.reddit.com/r/unixporn/comments/35h9a3/xfce_back_to_xfce/ [05:56] why does my system look completely different when i set theme to numix? [05:57] for example my system, thunar with numix: http://i.imgur.com/8yO2ubs.png [06:06] hmm... because it's not numix at all, it's adwaita [06:10] next question: why is the bluetooth icon not mono on 15.04? [08:37] ochosi: can you admin me on https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-testers [08:37] so I can mail testers from LP :) [10:29] sgt-puzzles-launcher 0.0.1 has been uploaded [10:30] Noskcaj: nice one :) [10:31] good job Noskcaj :D [10:31] It's pretty crap, but thanks. [10:31] big TODO list, but all it needs to be archive-safe is an icon. [10:32] and us choosing how we want to handle the desktop file hiding [11:03] flocculant: done [11:04] ali1234: the icons are numix, the gtk theme is adwaita [11:04] bluesabre: ok, i'll see what i can do [11:04] ochosi: ta :) [11:05] flocculant: also, with all the work knome has put into our new status tracker, i hope that'll motivate you to use it again over trello ;) [11:05] well [11:05] we'll see :) [11:09] ochosi: LP is ok - but I can't for instance - tell it a date I want to do something and have it remind me ;) [11:09] also need something actually readable to send testers too [11:34] flocculant, i'm just setting up reminders for open work items you can get every day [11:37] right, not quite what I meant - but I guess others might like that [11:37] i acknowledge it isn't exactly what you want [11:37] :) [11:38] maybe we can set up something like what you want too [11:38] but what was the comment re: readable for testers? [11:38] not sure how we could get due dates onto LP [11:38] the tracker can handle this and that. [11:38] and we can make it handle more [11:39] reading the dev list back in June - qa was discussing with some testers how to get info to them - was m/l and trello [11:39] that's what I was referring too [11:39] can you point me to the thread or summarize it again? [11:41] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2015-May/010746.html [11:41] thanks [11:41] and forward from there [11:42] right, that thread [11:42] well it went to nonsense quickly [11:44] when doesn't it [11:44] when you send a mail and nobody replies to it? :P [11:44] ha ha ha [11:45] anyway - the long and short of it is that lp and blueprints isn't the place to do that sort of thing :) [11:45] and mailing list comes up short really, so until I know of something else that can be used ... [11:45] likely not, because there isn't any single actionable item [11:45] yep [11:46] well, bbl [11:46] hf [11:46] wife wants the laptop and then she has other tasks assigned to me [11:46] ha ha ha [11:46] let's pick this up when i get back [11:46] -> [12:00] ochosi: thanks [12:04] ochosi: anything in particular you want in a very near menulibre release? [12:04] going to improve pantheon and plank integration [12:05] since I've seen some distress in my google search subscription :) [12:11] bbl [12:45] flocculant, so i understand what you'd like $software to do, but what it is for the testers? [12:55] somewhere easy for them to read foo and bar basically [12:56] toying with a couple of ideas - possibly revamp x.org qa page(s) with a bit more detail, or if I have sufficient time to fight ubuntu wiki maybe there [12:57] the ubuntu wiki seems to be the slowest out there now [12:57] LP has gotten a datacentre move and timeouts have been reduced [12:57] so it's actually pretty good now [12:58] lp? [12:58] because the wiki is slower than ever [12:59] yes, LP [12:59] long and short at the moment is I'm not completely sure what I need as I'm not completely sure what I'm going to be doing :) [13:00] I just know that LP is not the right place for it :) [13:00] in a way, the mailing list sounds like the right place [13:00] it's well archived, and you can do updates as often as you wish [13:01] of course, it doesn't necessarily reach the testers the way we wanted [13:01] mmm [13:01] but then what will? [13:01] still not sure m/l is right [13:01] i mean, the technology doesn't bring the users [13:02] you can't actually update things - all you can do is resend with something else [13:02] knome: ofc not :) [13:02] yep [13:02] but then if it's so much in flux, something like etherpad might just be the right choice [13:02] i know it sucks people need to have an LP account... [13:03] but tbh, they need that to do pretty much anything [13:03] yea - and of course you have to wait to be added to the team [13:03] if that seems to be the bottleneck, i can volunteer to admin the team too [13:03] I'd rather have something that people can *just* look at easily - and for that type of thing trello appears to be easiest [13:04] what i like pad > trello is the ownership colors [13:04] yea - that's a useful thing [13:04] and you also have the chat there [13:05] yep [13:05] but yeah, it would be perfect if you could see without account [13:06] i guess you can set pads up like that, just not the *buntu pad [13:06] yes, you can set up pads like anybody can edit [13:06] mmm [13:06] didn't think of that tbh [13:06] *other* pads [13:06] ;) [13:07] lol [13:07] bluesabre: nothing in particular from my side for menulibre [13:07] not that it's likely to happen - with trello as it is set up - random people can read but not edit [13:08] so no chance of random graffiti to clear up etc [13:08] though - with ~10 testers it'd not take long to ask who did it :D [13:09] the end result needs to be easy for testers to just check what's needed - I'm not overly concerned with how much work is in it for me tbh [13:09] flocculant, with that amount it's not too hard to get them to register an LP account ;) [13:12] not sure what LP has to do with it? [13:12] nvm :P [13:13] unless you're referring to buntu pad [13:13] yep [13:13] right - still not sure I'm liking pad vs trello for what I anticipate [13:14] one option would be to make ~xubuntu-testers a member of ~ubuntu-etherpad -> all testers get the access automatically [13:14] ok [13:14] i'm not opposed to you using trello, i'm just wondering if we could get it all in one place [13:15] yep [13:15] if it works out that we can I've not got an issue with using something else [13:15] nothing is set in stone [13:16] could the information be in the ISO tracker somehow? [13:16] (or packages where appropriate) [13:16] what I'm really after is working kinks out between now and end of wily cycle so it's all in place and working for the LTS cycle [13:17] ack [13:18] nah - trackers even further away than blueprint is :) [13:18] imagine somewhere *we* can write - people test this [13:18] and then change it tomorrow [13:19] with generic information as well [13:19] tracker could be able to do that [13:19] there's the notice board for front page [13:19] why not for product families [13:20] knome: but the pad isnt much better than trello for the tracker, no? [13:20] ochosi, right [13:20] ochosi, otoh, the ISO tracker would be better because people need to go there to report tests anyway [13:20] so avoids extra steps [13:20] mhm [13:21] is that one still actively maintained/developed? [13:21] knome: the tracker is just too unwieldy - I'm obviously not making the agility I want plain enough :) [13:22] talking of which - need to sort tracker admin out with nick [13:23] I don't particularly want to use *anything* - but for what I anticipate/envisage - trello seems the best fit for it [13:31] ochosi, there are people who have done updates for it lately [13:32] i have more tasks incoming. [13:32] see you later. [13:33] heh - cya later :) [13:34] hf knome [14:32] ristretto won't let me zoom an image to more than 50.5% ... [14:35] in fact it won't let the image be bigger than the window... ever [14:36] "ristretto: italian for 'restricted'" (in this case zooming) ;) [14:37] this is a bug though right? [14:37] the "1:1" button just does nothing... [14:38] I just zoomed something to 400% - and then back to 100% with the '1' button [14:38] http://i.imgur.com/9ATHdff.png this is the image [14:41] saved that and ristretto works fine with that too, though it does stop zooming at 400% [19:48] knome: started some trial on a greybird a11y xfwm4 theme, if you have time we can discuss how far to take the a11y aspect [19:54] ochosi, I've made the requested changes to chapter 1 and finished the draft of chapter 2. They should be ready for your review. [19:59] jjfrv8: nice! what's left from your pov? [20:00] I thought I needed to work through the rest of the chapters that were copied over to the wiki. Unless you don't think they're all needed. [20:06] tbh i haven't looked recently [20:11] Using Removable Media and Preferences shouldn't take too much work. [20:12] But as I mentioned earlier, the plugins stuff seems to be outdated and I don't know what's accurate about them anymore. [20:47] jjfrv8: k, i'll try to review the first two chapters asap === torstehu_ is now known as torstehu [21:38] ochosi, sure [22:09] How should i hide the sgt-puzzles desktop files? Just a postinst that adds a bunch of NoDisplays ? [22:14] Noskcaj: i'd do it like that but it might be best to ask bluesabre, he has more xp with menu and desktop file spec [22:14] ok [22:23] Noskcaj: there's probably no good way to really do it outside of making them no-display [22:23] oh, and there he is :) [22:24] bluesabre: i would second this bugreport/patch/suggestion btw: https://bugs.launchpad.net/catfish-search/+bug/1476401 [22:24] Launchpad bug 1476401 in Catfish "Missing GenericName" [Undecided,New] [22:24] ochosi, if you didn't notice, i'm here too ;) [22:24] knome: yeah yeah [22:24] * ochosi pats knome on the head [22:24] hah [22:24] just saying, i'm not in a rush [22:24] ochosi: makes sense [22:24] but catfish is next week [22:24] silly simon [22:24] :p [22:24] oh ofc ;)) [22:25] knome: well you could start with a draft for a blog post/announcement for xfpanel-switch. i gotta head to bed soon tonight, but i guess i could finalise it tomorrow ;) [22:25] hahah [22:26] i thought you wanted to talk about greybird a11y :P [22:26] yeah, i can quickly tell you what i had in mind [22:26] if you think it's worth it [22:26] (instead of actually having time to sit down and discuss about it) [22:27] since an a11y gtk theme is a lot of work and there's not enough time for me to work on that this cycle i thought i'd just do more variations of the xfwm4 theme and we could just ship all of them [22:27] one of them can be found in the xfwm4-refresh branch [22:27] heh [22:27] okay [22:27] another one will get pushed to xfwm4-a11y [22:28] for a11y i considered making it highcontrast, but i'm not 100% sure of that now [22:28] maybe just a thicker-border greybird xfwm4 version [22:28] xfwm? [22:28] yeah [22:28] thicker border == bigger buttons would be a good start [22:28] maybe the inside gradient could be hinting more towards white at the top [22:29] well, the gradient that we'd introduce [22:29] if you have time to check it out now, i can quickly push what i have [22:29] ok, if you remind me how to get the branch [22:30] go to tree, break off branch [22:30] 3. smack bluesabre with said branch for being a troll [22:31] :D [22:32] knome: git clone $repo && git checkout xfwm4-a11y [22:32] bluesabre (and everyone else) feel free to take a look too [22:32] wouldnt mind some feedback on that one [22:33] was the font size controlled by xfwm themes? [22:33] or just user? [22:34] just a user setting [22:34] ok [22:34] first comments/thoughts: [22:34] the active/inactive window menu button coloring is weird [22:34] which sucks a bit, cause the title vertical offset is "hardcoded" (or at least not in very user-friendly place) [22:35] i would expect them to be the other way around really [22:35] ochosi: whats the repo in this case? [22:35] well, the bg color [22:35] bluesabre: normal greybird repo [22:35] bluesabre, https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird [22:35] ah [22:35] stupid me [22:36] knome: yeah, those buttons i haven't touched [22:36] another thing is that i'd up the size of the button icons [22:36] for now i'm mostly curious whether you think the size is enough [22:36] or whether you like this sort of hover-style [22:36] which makes the buttons a bit more discoverable i think [22:36] i'm not a fan of that hover-style [22:36] i'd have to redraw them potentially anyway [22:36] but for a11y... [22:36] i don't know [22:36] yeah, this is not the new default look [22:36] maybe it'd help more if they were visible at all time [22:36] even slightly [22:36] yeah, that's another option [22:36] even if that isn't too accessible [22:37] but some highlight for the button area [22:37] i could just make them look like any other gtk button [22:37] then for hover, more white for the bg [22:37] mmh, why not [22:37] something like that might work [22:37] shouldn't be too hard [22:37] i don't know if that much padding is helpful between the buttons [22:37] maybe it doesn't look so bad when/if they have the borders visible at all times [22:37] i guess we'll know when they aren't flat anymore [22:38] yep [22:38] and really, make the icons inside larger [22:38] their color is good IMO [22:38] i'd just do the same padding as with the rest of the theme / buttons [22:38] for starters at least [22:38] mhm, was thinking about that too [22:38] oh [22:38] that looks nice [22:38] i made the borders 3px btw [22:38] bumped from 1px [22:39] yep, that's good [22:39] could be even 4 [22:39] or 5 [22:39] bluesabre: feel free to check out the xfwm4-refresh branch too [22:39] knome: yeah, that's what i was wondering. how far should i push that [22:39] again, it's a11y [22:39] yeah, so maybe 4 or 5 then [22:39] how much is enough to hit that comfortably *every time* (for us at least) [22:39] it should be frustration-free [22:40] so on the more minor issues [22:40] i would make the padding between the button borders and window borders smaller [22:40] imo they can be pretty close to the edge [22:40] or is that exactly the handle that's taking the space there too? [22:41] yeah, probably, but that again will be something to see when they're not flat anymore [22:41] yep [22:41] at least one thing to fix: [22:41] make the padding to top the same as to left [22:41] or right [22:41] looks weird now [22:42] i'll try to quickly fix up the buttons so we can get a better impression of that [22:42] ok [22:43] also gotta fix the style [22:43] not sure i like those alternative symbols [22:43] no hurry for me :P [22:43] right, that might be confusing too [22:44] and it's still greybird, so consistency++ [22:45] ochosi: seems like the menu is quite a bit over [22:45] http://i.imgur.com/hbRI43w.png [22:45] wow weird [22:45] can confirm that [22:45] but yeah [22:46] the problem is fairly obvious [22:46] when looking at the theme [22:46] so no worries, i'll fix that [22:46] cool [22:46] this is more of a sketch tbh [22:46] like a python sketch? [22:46] not again! [22:46] yes again! [22:46] * bluesabre dies [22:47] he's pining for the fjords [22:47] pull again [22:48] yeah, i would likely put them closer to each other [22:48] and make a more prominent hover style [22:48] the hover style is currently very close to the gtk buttons [22:48] or the same [22:48] right, but that likely needs fixing too once we get there [22:49] right, but that's still far away :) [22:49] sure, but let's set the standard [22:49] i thought consistency++ ;) [22:49] this way we can also get feedback on whether it's too bright [22:49] or if it isn't bright enough [22:49] so we have time to adjust [22:50] first i wanna get the button size and all that right [22:50] then we can fiddle with hover styles i'd say [22:50] sure [22:50] just saying since you wanted feedback, eh? [22:50] otherwise i always have to go back and mod everything [22:50] yeah yeah ;) [22:52] actually, [22:52] bluesabre: there is some weird gtk3 mechanism that makes my touchpad constantly select or grab stuff, have you noticed any of that at all? [22:52] i like how the menu button looks on the inactive window [22:52] bluesabre: even when i just wanna move the cursor around with one finger [22:52] if we had that and the fg color of the button on the active window... [22:52] isn't that too dark though? [22:52] that would set the buttons off just enough from the wm [22:53] i don't know [22:53] i just like how it looks [22:53] a11y doesn't need to mean it looks like a turd [22:53] ochosi: more things (toolbars) are grabbable in gtk3 [22:55] knome: ok pull that in [22:56] juicy [22:56] that looks good imo [22:56] now th fg might need to be a bit darker [22:56] but that's fine really [22:56] the gradient seems a bit wrong to me [22:56] really? [22:56] seems to go lighter toward the bottom [22:57] doesn't it? [22:57] which is a bit odd with the rest of the buttons of the theme doing the opposite [22:57] Did you reduce the contrast of the text? [22:57] bluesabre, with the xfwm theming? :P [22:57] yah [22:57] bluesabre: yeah, also just noticed that i get erroneous text-selection in mousepad-gtk3 with my touchpad. really weird and only gtk3 related [22:58] the xfwm font seems lighter than before [22:58] maybe not [22:58] maybe, not sure [22:58] i would make it darker anyway [22:58] ochosi, it looks like it's lighter on the bottom because it is [22:58] the active one at least [22:58] knome: yeah i know, but that's what feels wrong to me [22:58] i'm fine with flipping it over [22:58] and an idea: [22:58] maybe the close/menu buttons could have that lighter style [22:59] if you want [22:59] to emphasize their special meaning [22:59] maybe it isn't the best thing to overthink/-do this tonight [23:00] go get some sleep :) [23:00] generally, this is a good direction [23:00] ++ [23:00] (generally meaning, everything that i didn't say isn't perfect is good, eg. nothing) [23:00] ok cool [23:01] was mainly going for the general feedback of whether you agree with this direction [23:01] as i said, all the buttons will likely have to be redrawn entirely [23:01] i'm not happy with how that theme is done atm [23:01] it's good for me, now we need some people who actually needs a11y stuff [23:01] prolly [23:01] but let's improve it to be better first [23:01] anybody here knows some old folks? : [23:01] :p [23:02] ochosi, your mom [23:02] ba-dum tsshh [23:02] no seriously, thing is i don't wanna go highcontrast-a11y [23:02] just a bit more easy to hit everything [23:02] ooh, he's a hitter [23:02] :D [23:02] know what i mean, know what i mean [23:03] o-o-ooo [23:03] et cetera [23:03] indeed, i do :) [23:04] i know you do.. [23:04] aaanyway [23:04] maybe we can get folks around ubuntu help us with this [23:04] get it cycled in the UWN [23:04] canonical design folks? [23:04] might be a stretch, but who knows [23:04] right, why not [23:04] but they might go too far in the real a11y direction [23:05] which means maybe 2x the size and contrsat [23:05] contrast [23:05] well, we would only ask for feedback [23:05] but then again [23:05] i guess it depends on the definition [23:05] another one just needs bigger borders [23:05] another one more contrast [23:05] etc [23:05] bluesabre: i dunno why you never mentioned this hideous theming artifact: http://i.imgur.com/lYNAZvZ.png [23:05] it's endless.. [23:05] yeah [23:06] so the only way to catch-all is to make a catch-all, "real" a11y theme [23:06] bluesabre: i guess i should really try to get gtkentries and all other widgets at the same size/padding. this really sucks [23:06] knome: yeah, i don't wanna do that [23:06] there's already highcontrast for that [23:06] yeah, me neither [23:06] but the balance is important to find [23:06] and for that, guesses are meh [23:07] i could probably ask a few non-technical people to evaluate it [23:07] read: relatives [23:07] alright [23:07] and maybe somebody else [23:07] anyway, will get some sleep now [23:07] let's think about that when it's current [23:07] oki, good night [23:07] night everyone [23:08] he's just resting [23:08]