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apwLocutusOfBorg1, hiya, i see the new 5.0 virtual box doesn't yet have 4.2 support, is that coming soon or should i patch ubuntu up for it10:23
apwLocutusOfBorg1, i have a patch here i am using for the kernel import which fixes the symlink api in it, if thats of use10:24
LocutusOfBorg1hi apw answering there10:28
LocutusOfBorg1sorry for the late answer10:28
LocutusOfBorg1you can mail at locutusofborg@d.o10:28
apw(heh no late answer)10:28
apwLocutusOfBorg1, will do indeed10:29
LocutusOfBorg1but wait please10:29
* apw waits10:29
LocutusOfBorg1I'm opening an RC right now on Debian10:29
LocutusOfBorg1I wont virtualbox kicked out of Debian and Ubuntu10:29
apwoh ... why?10:29
LocutusOfBorg1I'll link it there ;)10:35
LocutusOfBorg1as soon as I finish the mail10:35
LocutusOfBorg1bug sent10:47
LocutusOfBorg1let BTS do the job and I'll post the link10:47
LocutusOfBorg1anyway, which files are changed?10:47
LocutusOfBorg1because as usual upstream should have already patched the sources10:48
LocutusOfBorg1and I usually update virtualbox with the latest release after the freeze, to be syncd with the kernel10:48
apwLocutusOfBorg1, vbox/vboxsf/lnkops.c they ahve changed the follow_link()/put_link() api, rather radically10:50
apwthough the fixes are not big if that makes sense10:50
apwthat is what i am using against what is in the 5.0.0 package for the kernel modules we have sucked in http://paste.ubuntu.com/11992242/10:51
LocutusOfBorg1apw, ^^^ ?10:53
apwLocutusOfBorg1, yep that looks to be equivalent indeed, and better10:54
apwLocutusOfBorg1, so this is about opaque oracle, sigh10:57
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LocutusOfBorg1apw, ^^^ yes (sorry I was lunching)11:50
apwheh np11:59
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apwtseliot, guess what ... dkms packages for 4.2 are all unhappy (again)15:52
tseliotapw: yay for breaking the API. What kernel version are you using?15:53
apw4.2-rc4 i think, though we have an upload about to land15:54
tseliotalso why does dkms report building for both amd64 and x86_64 in the same chroot???15:54
tseliotdkms status15:54
tseliotfglrx-core, 15.200.1, 4.1.0-3-generic, amd64: installed15:54
tseliotfglrx-core, 15.200.1, 4.1.0-3-generic, x86_64: installed15:54
apwgurgle :)15:55
tseliotoh, and BTW, I won't be able to fix nvidia for Linux 4.2, as kernel devs keep making functions GPL only...15:55
apwtseliot, fun15:56
tseliotoh, you have no idea ;)15:56
apwthey need to start loadin the binary driver itself as a firmware blob15:56
apwthen their driver can be GPL15:56
tseliotyes, that's probably the only way to do it, other than open sourcing everything (in our dreams)15:58
apwmy very wet dreams15:59
apwthe _GPL is an utter farce whoever added that deserves a beatng16:04
apwtseliot, actually it is not at all clear to me that they couldn't write a wrapper which was propriatry which literally only exported the binary interfaces in the binary blobs as wrap_name 1 for 116:05
apwand then the existing GPL bits be a second module which is self contained and therefore GPL16:06
apwwhich uses both sets ... which demonstrates how the _GPL is a farse16:06
ohsixintent isn't ambiguous16:07
ohsixsomeone could do that, but it would be an overt action for 'reasons'16:07
apwohsix, the intent is that only GPL things can link to that interface16:08
apwthe intent isn't to make ordinary users lives vile16:08
apwand if one could not allow GPL code to talk to proprietaory blobs, then we couldn't talk to the bios16:10
apwnor to disk drives with firmware, or nics or ...16:10
ohsixthat's not even remotely the same, heh; the question is over whether something is a derived work or not and symbol licenses make it unambiguous in certain places16:11
ohsixif there was an eula or literally anything that said you couldn't talk to the firmware on something then you'd be bound by that too16:11
apwohsix, except that i am not sure you'd find that the licence exactly says any of the things either of us think is does, because lawyers16:12
apwnone of the clarity we think is there, really is16:12
ohsixthe question is of whether it is a derived work16:13
ohsixand the hazard with figuring that out in court16:13
apwindeed, and i'd contend "we don't know" is the only correct answer16:13
ohsixthat's pretty clear16:13
ohsixyou do know if the developer knows it is a significant feature of linux and states the symbol is gpl16:13
apwohsix, i'd also contend that the intent of the writer of the _GPL in the main is to punish the _vendor_16:13
apwohsix, but in the main they are punishing the end user16:13
apwbut then i have a modicom of pragmatism for a geek16:14
ohsixif the vendor cared about the user so much they wouldn't feel threatened by such a silly scheme ;]16:14
apwi make not comment on how stupid vendors can be16:14
apwi claim that the effort upstream only hurts users16:15
ohsixthe derived work thing regarding the gpl is pretty well understood, what it means for the kernel is not16:15
apwas here, we likley won't have binary drivers fo nvidia going forward, and that makes users lives hard16:15
ohsixcompanies may end up creating derived works when they use the thing and at least the right parties will know it is happening16:16
apwi contend that we won't know any more than we do now, as they can cheat, and cheat in hidden code and you can't tell16:17
apwwhich is what makes it a farse16:17
ohsixdrivers from staging taint the kernel for other reasons16:17
apwthis isn16:17
apwisn't about taint, this is about not being able to do things16:17
ohsixyou can tell, though; and if it comes down to it you can demonstrate intent to work around things16:17
ohsixit is about disclosure16:17
ohsixwith symbol license statements every party knows what is up with respect to that symbol16:18
apwit is a legally questionable farse imo, but then my opinion counts for almost nothing16:18
apwtake for example the case where we have an EXPORT_SYMBOL for something16:18
apwand someone changes the implementation and adds a dependancy which is _GPL16:18
apwnow you have made that interface break the inner one, and if you fix it you break16:19
apwpeople who had every right to think they could use it16:19
apwits just stupid16:19
apwas happened with locks recently, so nothing could use locks16:19
apwits just not sustainable16:19
apwIMO the point of GPL code is to let people do what they want with their computers without big companies getting rich off it16:20
apwand _this_ is not served at all by this mess16:20
ohsixpeople don't have a problem with published shims and a blob, or having any given user being the one to knowingly put them together16:20
apwa case where the implementation does _not_ meet the goal and all because of the wording of a licence16:20
apwohsix, except you can't use an _GPL symbols in such a case because the rules are blakc and white16:21
apwthis is the exact case that the nvidia shim plus clearly and demonstrably externally created blob faces16:21
apwthis is not the intent (imo) of the gpl16:21
apwyes its what the words say, but it is not the intent16:22
ohsixthe shim creates an environment that is stable for the code to run in, you essentially need it regardless of whether there's a blob somewhere16:22
apwindeed, but that it links to the blob makes it not GPL and by becoming not GPL it cannot use the kernel any more16:23
apwso that makes the whole thing pointless, even though you are doing waht is recommended as a solution16:23
apwthis is why _GPL is a bad solution to any problem16:23
ohsixwell there is an analogy to a very american thing, you can buy the lower receiver for an m16, that part 'is' the gun, but it is not a 'gun' until you put the other 95% on it, the barrel, trigger mechanism, butt stock16:25
apwall my non-lawyer personal opinion16:25
ohsixpeople can freely sell and buy the receiver, but at some point after that what is done with it can be highly illegal16:25
apwbut the point here is if you buy all the bits of that you can put them together, and if you do you get a gun16:25
apwwhereas i can't put the bits together16:26
ohsixyou can't unknowingly put the bits together16:26
apwoh and actually putting them together isn't illegal in my case16:26
apwi just am not allowed to do it by the tooling16:26
apweven though what i want to do is allowed and i am permitted to do it by the licence16:27
* apw gets grumpy16:27
ohsixyou're also allowed to remove the _GPL part from all those statements, as long as it is never distributed, because you can't give that right to anyone else16:27
apwtseliot, so to perperuate this farse, i would contend you could make the shim copy and and all source it needs out of the originals, with the _GPL attached, ship that, and in dkms sed -e 's/_GPL//g' and then compile the result, and be lega16:28
ohsixbut you show intent, and if some legal question comes up over that later, you knowingly did it :]16:29
apwwhich i thing completly makes my point, the only person you are penalising is the end-user16:29
apwwhich is not the intent of the GPL or GPL code in general16:29
ohsixthe end user has the right to do such a thing16:29
apwand you make his life a living hell to make a pont16:30
apwpoint, a point you should be making to someone else16:30
ohsixthe end user isn't distributing the code, generally, most things are binding when the code is distributed16:30
ohsixdistributing a binary is distributing the code, and i'm not a lawyer but i'm pretty sure that it's clear the binary counts as a derived work16:31
ohsixyou can talk to the fsf and stuff, doesn't canonical have staff lawyers? :D16:31
apwi don't dispute that reading of the words, i mearly contend we punish the wrong person16:31
apwi don't need to talk to a lawyer to know my opinion on the situation16:32
ohsixi think your opinion may be different if you knew how important it is legally to remove ambiguity by just stating the license for a symbol vs. the alternative16:32
ohsixbut fair enough16:32
apwno i don't see how _GPL does a thing, the kernel is licenced en-toto under the GPL16:33
ohsixthere have been debates over whether using _GPL was even appropriate, and they favor not16:33
apwadding or removing _GPL does nothing to change that not adds anything to that story16:33
ohsixit is, but what is a 'derived work'16:33
ohsixthat's the thing at question in any case dealing with this16:34
apwthe licence does not add meaning to that wording therefore it being or not being in the code has no meaning16:34
ohsix_GPL is used where an author considers that anything that would touch that symbol is likely a derived work16:34
apwi would contend that i can do whatever the GPL says i can with either interchangably16:34
apwit is unlikely they are qualified to make that judgement any more than the lawyer who will16:35
apwunder a strict legal reading16:35
apwas anyone who has spent time with a lawyer will tell you16:35
apwany more than _i_ am qualfied16:35
apwnor would i want to be of course16:36
ohsixbut it shows intent16:36
ohsixi wiped out a line i decided not to say, but it was like, anything very generally for dealing with virtual memory pages wouldn't be _GPL, per-se; but a function that was basically considered internal to linux' specific vm might be16:37
apwi am not sure you can show intent of an action i perform16:37
apwanyhow, all academic in real terms16:38
tseliotthe only intent I can see is that to make my life miserable as a maintainer when they change functions to GPL only :P16:39
apwand that is their intent i am sure :)16:39
apwif our source packages were co-installable you might just be able to use that as a base16:40
apwso you'd not need to include your source16:40
ohsixit's also not unlike highly visible and deliberately placed 'no tresspassing' signs16:41
apwplaced on a public park entrance16:41
ohsixpolice won't have to speak to property owner to know that they intend to have anyone that doesn't belong there removed, but 'belong there' and everything can happen at a different time16:42
apwyes, except in this case end users are allowed to do whatever they like in the park16:42
ohsixprovided they don't then have to share the park with someone else ;]16:42
apwyes, and the signs don't say "don't share the park" they say "don't enter the park"16:43
apwwhich is my entire point16:43
ohsix'dont share the park' is implied by 'dont enter the park'16:43
apwi don't think you can really mean that16:43
ohsixyou can't share a park you can't be in16:43
ohsixnor ice cream you don't have16:44
apwyes but i have the right to be in the park16:44
apwso telling me "don't enter the park" is just rude and obnoxious16:44
apwbecause you want the park for yourself, no ?16:44
ohsixthe park was your thing, i was talking about where clear markers can be placed and be relevant16:44
ohsixyou can't smoke in the park, how about that16:44
apwif you want me to not share the park licence it to me that way, oh thats exactly what you did16:44
apwon the GPL lets me do what i want to the park as long as i don't share it16:45
apwi can burn it to the ground, wahtever16:45
apwthe GPL already tells me i cannot do these things, i _KNOW_ i can't do them16:45
apwand i don't do them, take DKMS as fine example16:45
apwthat follows the rules, it is doing the right thing, and _GPL stops it doing something16:45
apwit is allowed to do16:45
apwit is the wrong tool for the job16:46
apwstop hitting the screw with a hammer i say16:46
apwanyhow, this is not going to solve my problem, doing something utterly stupid is going to do that16:47
ohsix'the gpl' also stops it from doing a lot of things, and the user too16:47
apwyes, it does, but not this thing16:47
ohsixit existing at all is a sign of that, you can't then go on and say that _GPL is the problem16:48
apwwell as an end user i actually can16:48
ohsixif not for 'the gpl', dkms wouldn't have a 'the _GPL' problem16:48
apwdkms doesn't have a GPL problem it has only an _GPL prolem16:48
tseliotBTW, the function that breaks nvidia is flush_workqueue(). Why wasn't it originally _GPL ? And why is it now?16:48
apwaccording to lawyers anyhow16:49
ohsixdkms wouldn't exist if you could distribute the built modules16:49
apwright we're not talking about the fact dkms is required as part of the GPL16:49
apwwe're talkin about the fact that even though it does something which is allowed, the tools prevent it16:49
ohsixthe tools wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the license that it is bound to eventually by extra technical measures and point of fact problems16:50
ohsixit's just not a logical sequence of things that makes any sense16:50
apwi don't dispute they exist, i dispute they implement the intent of the limitations16:50
apwi don't have technological limitations preventing me speeding in my car, its still illegal16:51
apwths is like having a speed regulator at 55 becuase once in the past the speed limit was that16:51
apwohsix, and in the nicest posible sense we are wasting each others time, we are not going to agree here :)16:53
ohsixwe don't disagree16:54
apwnot indeed does it matter what either of us believe as what is is and what lawyers think is what they think16:54
ohsixbut i don't think the legal situation here is too fine a point to understand16:54
ohsixif the license were BSD this really really wouldn't be a problem, would it16:54
ohsixit's just matter of fact 'problems' that are implied with what the situation actually is16:55
ohsixtseliot: do you have some idea when it changed? (flush_workqueue)16:55
ohsixi'm git log'ing but this machine has slow disks and not much memory16:56
apwtseliot, yeah interestingly there is a commit back on schedule_work which reversed a GPLification of a symbol because it was previously something else16:57
ohsixit looks like it was before historical git epoch, not looking that up, huhuhu16:58
ohsixthat stuff lives in kernel/ tho16:58
apwtseliot, so i don't think you calling that direct as it has always been _GPL i assume its now called from something else newly16:59
tseliotI really hope it has a non-GPL_ wrapper17:00
ohsixthe discussion would really be moot and silly if it came down to a symbol that didn't even matter much17:01
tseliotit's already as silly as it gets. This is not the first time that happens. I've seen much worse17:03
tseliotthe dma_buf code though was probably one of the best examples of how pointless GPL_ is17:04
tseliotwith NVIDIA eventually adding non-GPL_ wrappers in the kernel and ending the argument17:05
apwtseliot, does this use its own workqueue or the system one ?17:05
ohsixagain that's not really what the point is, nor is it 'the gpl'17:06
apwwhats the flush_workqueue incantation if it has one17:06
apwohsix, the GPL is fine and dandy and i support its intent intensly17:06
ohsixall the workqueue symbols are gpl and have been for like 10 years17:06
tseliotapw: I haven't really checked that, or maybe I have and I forgot about it. It's been a while.17:07
apwohsix, well half of them are, "delayed" work isn't, most inconsistant17:08
tseliotthere were non-GPL_ wrappers for the workqueue though...17:08
tseliotif I remember correctly17:08
apwtseliot, right, i am sure there were for some operations17:09
* tseliot nods17:09
apwtseliot, i can see why you go mad updating this thing ... uggg17:11
tseliotyes, at least we're going to get rid of fglrx, so it's going to be just nvidia (sooner or later)17:12
apwtseliot, does this really contain a shar file containing a binary installer, i am going to barf17:14
tseliotapw: fglrx does not (if you're referring to my tarballs), nvidia's certainly does17:16
apwtseliot, the latter indeed, uggg17:16
tseliotapw: yes, you might want to run $INSTALLER_NAME -x , then enter the kernel directory17:17
tseliotall right, time for me to go17:18
* tseliot -> away17:18
unixabgapw: Greetings, just checking on casper and overlayfs.17:41
apwunixabg, was there a bug number on that, so i can put it on my todo and make sure i get to it17:43
bdmurrayapw: every iproute2 crash I can find uses the latest trusty kernel.17:45
apwbdmurray, hmmm interesting17:45
apwbdmurray, do we have any idea where/what it is exploding in17:45
bdmurrayapw: that's with the release pocket version of iproute2 or the -updates version17:45
apwbdmurray, ok so definatly not the userspace tools i'd say then17:46
bdmurrayapw: Oh, I didn't realize 3.13.0-59 was superceded. I haven't looked for the latest kernel yet.17:47
unixabgapw: no I had just tested and multiple overlayfs did not work on my test environment. I do not think it hard17:47
unixabgto reproduce and I am not sure if it is a casper thing or not.17:47
bdmurrayapw: the vast majority of the crashs are when running /sbin/ip route fwiw17:48
apwunixabg, ack, thats fine, i suspect i know exactly whats up, and just need to keep a handle on it, i'll file something to remind me17:48
apwbdmurray, hmmm ... ok17:48
apwbdmurray, i think we need to file a bug against linux with all this info in17:48
apwbdmurray, as i don't think it can be userspace if -releaase and -update are fingered, and its all since that kernel went out17:49
bdmurrayapw: Okay, I'll open a bug.17:49
apwbdmurray, thanks, let us know the number here and we'll get someone to look at what you have, include any links to traces you have17:50
apwbdmurray, or of ocurse add a task for the existing iproute2 bug for linux, and let us know the number17:56
bdmurrayapw: bug 1481038 I'm still adding more details though18:09
ubot5bug 1481038 in linux (Ubuntu) "iproute2 crashes being reported since kernel version 3.13-0-59-generic" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/148103818:09
unixabgapw: humble appreciation and if you push something to test I shall do my best to test it.18:09
apwbjf, this looks like it might be a kernel issue in routing, though it causes userspace to explode i think18:10
bjfapw, are you going to work that bug or do you want jsalisbury to start bisecting it?18:12
apwbjf, i thnk i am not gonig to look at it today, i am slightly unsure if we cna reproduce it atm whihc would be necessary18:13
apwit might be worth seeing if jsalisbury can figure out a reproduce by for sure18:13
bjfjsalisbury, ^ is that ok with you?18:13
jsalisburyapw, bjf, ack, I'll take a look18:14
bdmurrayI'm still running some database queries and let me know if I can help at all.18:15
apwbdmurray, anything you can tell us about what combos do and don't show this is good18:16
jsalisburybdmurray, do you have the steps you used in comment #1 to reproduce the bug?18:16
bdmurrayjsalisbury: I was just testing to make sure that apport generated good crashes by manually killing the "ip monitor" process.18:17
jsalisburybdmurray, ahh, ok.  I'll take a look at the oops once you attach them18:17
apwjsalisbury, this seems to be a userspace crash, but it is shown with old and new userpace, and only with the latest kernel18:17
apwso it might be a userpace bug being exposed by a kernle change or something18:18
bdmurrayjsalisbury: unfortunately there is no stacktrace or coredump with these crashes.18:18
jsalisburybdmurray, ok, I'll review whatever data we can get18:19
bdmurrayI've added the oopses from 2015072918:19
bdmurrayoh, its all on amd64 too18:19
jsalisburybdmurray, I'll spin up a VM with that kernel and play with iproute to see if I can reproduce the issue18:22
bdmurrayjsalisbury: sounds good, I wonder if (because the crashes are incomplete) it might be happening during boot up or shutdown.18:23
jsalisburybdmurray, ack, that should be easy to find out18:24
apwjsalisbury, do let me know how you get on18:24
jsalisburyapw, sure will18:24
jsalisburybdmurray, apw, nice, I already have a physical machine running Trusty with the -58 kernel, so I'll just install that kernel and start testing18:26
apwjsalisbury, yeah you might want to put a few reboots in your world18:28
jsalisburyapw, I'll do that with just upgrading the kernel and try some other things out.  Then apply the full updates and try again.18:29
jsalisburybdmurray, what's the best way to confirm if this bug is reproduced?  Will an oops be written to syslog or anything else in another log file?  18:43
jsalisburybdmurray, I guess I can look for whoopsie messages in syslog and that dialog box will pop up18:54
jsalisburybdmurray, apw, upgrading just the kernel brings me up to -61, so I'll roll back to -58 to try and reproduce just in case it might have been fixed18:58
apwjsalisbury, ack18:58
bdmurrayjsalisbury: look for an iproute2 crash file in /var/crash/19:20
jsalisburybdmurray, thanks19:28

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