bluesabreif anybody is interested in checking out the next menulibre and looking for any annoying bugs... https://code.launchpad.net/~menulibre-dev/+archive/ubuntu/daily :)03:04
Unit193Yer up late.03:04
bluesabretrying not to be03:05
bluesabresummary of changes: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~menulibre-dev/menulibre/master/revision/290#NEWS03:05
bluesabretomorrow I'll start poking folks for lo-style-elementary as an alternative to tango/human themes03:09
bluesabrebed time now03:09
ochosicjbayliss: not sure, that is not a very standard location for such a button07:46
ochosimorning everyone07:46
ochosibluesabre: i suggest we link all the bugs you tackle with the new menulibre release to the bugs blueprint, that way we can more meaningfully trace what happened during the cycle07:47
ochosilinked that one you marked "fix committed" yesterday07:47
ochosioh, and a few others :)07:49
ochosiknome: btw, for the community funded server space for our tracker, i could approach david planella again (you remember, my affirmed/rejected application for community donations fund)08:24
ochosilemme know what you had in mind there08:25
knomebasically, i had nothing in specific in mind there08:35
knomeremind you, hardware/servers for me are "i don't care as long as it works"08:36
knomepractically, i need a server that can do php, sqlite/mysql and cron08:36
knomeand ssh...08:37
knomeit can be a webhotel-like setup - as long as it does what is mentioned above08:38
Unit193Bummer, there goes that.  I only have telnet.08:38
knomeand what comes from cron, it'd better be unrestricted than "you can do one cron job a day"08:38
knomebe back in 15-3008:39
ochosiknome: right, but i meant whether you had any plans wrt financing, so i know whether it makes sense to ask david. also an estimated annual cost would be good to have before i get in touch with him08:42
ochosifwiw, the automated testing initiative by nicholas skaggs and others will be community-hosted too (i don't think they have settled on a provider yet, but it's clear it's not going to be canonical-based)08:43
ochosinot sure whether there is any potential (or wish or openness or... benefit) for cooperation on any side08:45
knomei'm sure we can cooperate, but otoh, i don't know what the performance would be on that, considering it would make sense to take up all resources when testing08:59
knomepleia2 and Unit193 would likely have better ideas of hosting costs (outside finland), but it's likely to be less than 100 euros per year anyway09:00
knomeeven if you had a small virtual server completely controlled by yourself09:00
knomewhat i'm trying to say is that i don't know enough of the options to pick and ultimately, i don't care :]09:01
ochosiokeydokey :)09:03
knomei guess at the same time, there is this question whether the whole xubuntu.org domain should be hosted on that server09:11
knomemaybe not09:11
knomebecause i don't think the SSL stuff is so easy then09:11
* knome sighs and shrugs09:11
ochosii guess if we get our own hosting, the question arises whether we want to set up our own (less laggy) wiki09:12
knomeyep, i've been thinking about that too09:14
knomeanything that does under the "dev." subdomain would be fine with that hosting09:15
knometo keep some kind of guidelines for the scope09:15
knomethen it's also easier to rationalize09:15
ochosii really wouldn't mind getting that stuff more integrated in our website through that09:15
knomein what way would that be?09:16
ochosicurrently even the general color-scheme (and i know that sounds petty) suggests the stuff on the wiki is somehow different09:16
ochosii dunno, e.g. by keeping the header of the website even in the wiki09:16
knomeif we set up our own wiki, then it definitely should be integrated with at least the devel area09:16
ochosinot so much "open link in new tab" feeling09:16
knomeif/when we set this up09:18
knomewe might want to consider another menu bar for the website09:18
knomewhich would have links like09:18
knomewebsite  developers  launchpad  ...09:18
knomeand then integrate them all with that09:18
knomewell, we can't integrate lp with that09:18
knomebut anyway...09:18
knomebecause i don't think the same idea for layouting goes for the devel area than the user facing website09:19
knomeor practically: the same theme won't work well with both09:19
knomewhich is why i haven't tried to mimic the website theme on the tracker09:20
ochosihm, yeah you're prolly right there09:22
ochosibut then again, the tracker feels so much more "xubuntu" than the ubuntu wiki or the old tracker or lp ftm...09:23
ochosialso, it's just really nicely balanced, +1 on the colorscheme09:23
knomeof course09:24
knomei mean, sure, i'll try to make it more xubuntu, that's for sure09:24
knomeand if/when we set up the developer area (with wiki perhaps), i'll likely take even more time to make it look integrated09:25
knomeadd a xubuntu logo etc...09:25
knomedidn't want that stuff to take time/motivation away from getting the features right09:26
ochosiyeah, totally makes sense09:26
ochosi(and obviously paid off)09:26
knomeffff, 20+°C here09:32
knomenot my favorite09:32
dkesselhmmm, i frequently have thunar crashing after renaming files (in wily) - is that a known "feature"?09:33
ochosidkessel: doesn't sound like one09:33
ochosibut is it reproducible on v?09:34
dkesseldo i have V? :)09:34
ochosii dunno :) do you? (v for vivid, not vendetta)09:34
dkesseli am renaming files in a way that they will change order in the folder afterwards09:34
dkesselno i am only running trusty and wily09:34
ochosihave you tried to use the same thunar version on trusty (e.g. via PPA)09:35
dkesselthe rename is successful, but the thunar window just disappears afterwards. no crash notification either09:35
ochosi(just to exclude that it's a bug in gvfs or something like that)09:35
ochosiheh, so that's why you said "feature" :)09:35
dkesselmh. not yet. got to go back to work. taking a note to investigate further...09:36
bluesabrethanks ochosi10:59
ochosifelt it would be valuable so i just went ahead and did it ;)11:00
ochosialso, i like to feed the tracker now that i enjoy it11:00
bluesabreI'm working on getting VMs up for each desktop environment to test with... just to make sure that 2.0.7 is that last 2.0.x release :)11:00
ochosisounds awesome11:01
ochosii wonder btw whether there's any clear rationale as to why e.g. gedit has the "new" button with a label in the headerbar11:01
ochosiinstead of just using the document-new icon11:01
ochosiguess i'd have to skim the HIG a bit11:02
bluesabreI've noticed that gnome apps present their headerbars all a bit differently... so if I had to guess I'd say the rules are not too specific there11:02
ochosione takeaway for me is that headerbar controls should be dynamic11:04
ochosii.e. change or update depending on the selection/view11:04
ochosiso i guess it doesn't make sense to show the undo/redo buttons initially11:04
ochosiespecially when there's nothing to undo/redo11:04
ochosiand no "delete" button when nothing is selected11:04
ochosithat one should only appear when it would work11:04
bluesabreI'm not a huge fan of dynamic controls11:05
ochosiseems like the HIG suggests not to put insensitive items in the headerbar normally11:05
bluesabreimagine if icons appeared and disappeared in libreoffice11:05
ochosiyeah, obviously menulibre!=libreoffice11:05
ochosilibreoffice with headerbar is quite unthinkable11:05
ochosibtw, the "new" button also is a label in the HIG: https://developer.gnome.org/hig/stable/header-bars.html.en11:06
ochosithat page is not a bad read tbh11:06
bluesabreah, there's not really multiple views in menulibre though11:07
bluesabreit's always in editor view11:07
bluesabregedit's open button https://i.imgur.com/9exSoYk.png11:09
bluesabrethe new tab button next to it is the "new" button11:09
bluesabreI can see hiding/showing the delete button, but any other button would be revealed if the app was used at all11:11
ochosithe "new" button somehow makes sense as a combobox btw11:15
ochosilike in gedit11:15
ochosisince you open a popup with multiple options11:15
ochosiinstead of executing a single action11:19
bluesabreyeah, makes sense11:19
bluesabredon't want the headerbar to become too cluttered though11:20
bluesabreapp icon, app controls, search bar, window controls11:20
bluesabreit starts getting a bit messy11:20
bluesabrebut really, that'd only be an extra button's width, so I shouldn't whine :)11:22
bluesabreI'll make that change later today (unless you want to go ahead and play with it)11:23
ochosidunno, i guess the current menu would have to be converted to a popover for this to really work, no?11:26
ochosialso, what's the rationale behind the label next to the delete icon?11:26
bluesabreochosi: no particular reason, I just copied geary's design on that11:26
bluesabreI'll probably drop that label11:27
bluesabreit's fairly useless :D11:27
bluesabreand yeah, the plan is to replace the menu with a popover11:27
bluesabremake things more consistent11:27
ochosiright, i'd rather use the label for the "new" combobox tbh ;)11:28
ochosianyway, can probably poke that part a bit11:30
ochosiwhat's the "refresh" button good for?11:30
ochosiand, shouldn't that really go into the menu or is that something ppl would use regularly enough to take up so much space?11:31
ochosioh wow, that's "revert"?11:31
bluesabreyeah, that's revert11:33
bluesabreis there a better standard icon for revert?11:33
ochosii'll take a look11:33
ochosibut refresh really doesn't work for me11:33
ochosiwhat's the exact usecase though?11:34
ochosiresetting a complete desktop file?11:34
bluesabreundo all my changes to last saved state11:34
ochosithat sounds ok11:35
ochosibut i hope that doesn't conflict too badly with "undo"11:35
ochosisomehow i'd rather have that somewhere else tbh11:36
ochosiidea: make the "undo" a combobox as well with either the previous steps listed (like history) and as a last step "revert to initial state" or something11:36
ochositoo much work?11:36
bluesabreI have the history stored as a stack, but it would be ugly to do something like that11:37
ochosior make it a combobox and say "go back 1 step" and "go back to step 1" :D11:37
bluesabreew ew ew11:37
* ochosi likes to appal bluesabre 11:38
ochosiright, that icon is much better11:39
ochosiwhat is somehow fun is that the "move up" and "-down" buttons are also affecting the same items like the buttons in the headerbar, but they're in a totally different place :)11:40
ochosithen again, pushing all of this to the inline toolbar is probably fugly11:40
ochosibtw, where are you standing on flipping the switch back for gtk overlay scrollbars? still no likey with greybird's better theming?11:40
bluesabreI'll have to take a look again11:41
bluesabreare the mini-scrollbars transparent?11:41
ochosiit'd be best for you to try yourself11:41
ochosii can screenshot them, then again i guess handson is better11:41
bluesabreI'll test it tonight11:42
bluesabrere: move icons, the context is slightly different, editing the menu as opposed to the launcher11:42
ochosigreybird1.6 already should have the theming for it11:42
ochosiso flipping the switch should be enough to test immediately11:44
ochosiin wily11:44
bluesabrejust moving quickly this morning to get ready for work11:44
ochosii think i'll do a new greybird release soon btw11:44
ochosii guess no progress on getting shimmer-themes back under our umbrella11:45
ochosii might actually try to get the CSD shadow to match the xfwm4 shadow more11:45
ochosithat's one last thing that bugs me11:45
bluesabrecommitted the revert icon11:47
ochosik nice11:47
flocculantknome: thanks for pinging that mail from Adam to the list11:53
flocculantdkessel: if that crash on rename is a feature - then I'm missing it 11:54
ochosibluesabre: oh meh, changing that to a combobox is not that easy, that's a menu...12:03
ochosipleia2, knome: about hosting the xubuntu tracker somewhere community-funded, i have talked to dpm about that briefly today and he said that if we were to apply for that, he'd +1 it and that he thinks this'd be great. so i guess our chances of getting the funding for the hosting are pretty good.12:05
ochosipleia2: since you seem to be the hosting guru around here, what would you recommend? or can you just put together an offer for that at a company/provider you can recommend? i guess asking for ~100€ p.a. should be fine12:06
ochosipleia2: would be great if you could get back to me on that so we can split the work into workitems somehow12:06
bluesabreochosi: a combobox is probably not the right way to go either... we're not making a selection, but performing an action... right?12:12
bluesabregotta run, bbl12:12
bluesabrein the case of the combobox, it'd be difficult to create the same type of thing twice without resetting the combo... which just makes it a button12:13
ochosiso what is it in gedit then?12:28
pleia2ochosi: I have capacity right now on the ubuntu-us.org server12:36
pleia2that's a linode that has been donated to the community12:36
pleia2I could also ask gandi.net to hook us up, but if I don't need to manage another system, I'd be happy :)12:37
pleia2if knome can get me his ssh key in the next 40 minutes, I can set up an account (otherwise airplanes all day)12:38
* pleia2 sends msgs to knome12:48
knomepleia2, but you already have my ssh key...12:49
pleia2knome: I grabbed from launchpad :)12:49
ochosipleia2: oh ok, that sounds perfect as well!12:58
ochosithanks for setting that up then! :)12:58
pleia2sure :)12:58
ochosiso is that pro bono or shall we apply for community funds still?12:59
ochosiknome, pleia2: also, dpm said they "generally recommend to host externally for more flexibility and to avoid blocking on Canonical IS"13:00
pleia2this is the server that runs ubuntu-us.org and a couple other state team blogs13:00
ochosiknome: in case you're still considering moving the x.org site as a whole13:00
pleia2gandi.net is super supportive and I have a contact over there, so they could likely give us a free VPS if we want one13:00
knomeochosi, yep, i still am13:00
knomepleia2, ^13:01
knomebut heh, we just asked for SSL13:01
knomego us13:01
pleia2heh :)13:01
knomei don't know how *that* works out on external hosting13:01
ochosiwell, live and learn ;)13:01
ochosidunno, we can ask i guess13:01
ochosior do you know anything about the ubuntu-us server and SSL?13:02
knomei mean13:02
knomethe technical issues likely aren't the issue13:02
knomethe social/funding issues might be13:02
knomeor "how do we use a SSL certificate paid by canonical on a gandi hosted site" type of things13:02
knomebut then i don't know much of that...13:02
ochosii guess we can always ask13:03
knomedoes it echo in here?13:03
ochosibut if canonical encourages the community folks to move to external hosting...13:03
ochosidoes it echo in here?13:03
pleia2we could also use community funding to pay for our own cert, they renew every year anyway so we wouldn't always need to use the associated private key that canonical may not wish to part with13:04
knomeright, that's an option13:04
knomeright now i'm hungry and grumpy13:05
ochosii guess dpm would be fine with that too13:05
knomebut really, i'd just like somebody else to take care of this13:05
knomei can handle the migration from server to server13:05
knomeand things associated with it13:06
pleia2I'd rather not volunteer to run a whole 'nother server right now ;)13:06
knomei understand that13:06
pleia2so we can chat about all that later13:06
knomeyes, likely the best way to go13:06
knomelet's let IS set up SSL 13:06
ochosishall we put it in a workitem though or throw it on the meeting agenda not to forget?13:06
knomeand use this server for the tracker for now13:06
knomei can add a work item13:06
ochosik, thx13:07
ochosiso basically this: /dev goes to ubuntu-us for the tracker, the rest remains where it is?13:07
ochosior did you mean: migrate to ubuntu-us with x.org and everything that belongs to it and sort out SSL with IS?13:07
pleia2just setting up tracker for now13:07
knomelet's keep IS hosting for xubuntu.org for now13:08
knomeand let them set up SSL there13:08
knomeas requested13:08
knomethen just move the tracker over the -us server13:08
knomeand let dust settle13:08
ochosiok, sounds ok to me13:08
* pleia2 wanders over to airplane13:12
knomehave fun flying13:12
knomepleia2, once you're around, we'll need sqlite3 for php..13:32
flocculantochosi: upowerd crash coming back from lock, need that reported? 15:57
davmor2Hey xubuntu people, are you guys taking part in the testing of 14.04.3? If so who is the best person to talk to please18:19
knomedavmor2, flocculant 18:19
davmor2flocculant: ah hello :)18:19
davmor2knome: thanks18:19
knomeno problemo18:20
davmor2flocculant: you might want to join #ubuntu-release incase there are any critical issues you discover.18:35
flocculantdavmor2: yep - I know about -release and will be sure to if there's a need. Actually only got 2 testers on .3 and not got any critical issues that have been seen or reported 18:47
jarnoshow can you log in to sessi18:48
davmor2flocculant: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/344/builds is the current 14.04.3 are they reporting their findings to daily still?18:48
flocculant'they' are me and one other team member - he's US time and probably hasn't seen rebuild 18:49
jarnos..on after resume from suspend to RAM in the live session of the development xubuntu?18:49
flocculantjarnos: not sure - never seen the need to suspend a live session 18:50
davmor2flocculant: ah okay cool :)18:51
flocculantjust about to check them actually 18:51
flocculantdavmor2: they'll be marked on the tracker one way or the other tomorrow :)18:52
flocculantkeep getting zsync issues ... 18:52
davmor2flocculant: awesome thanks 18:52
davmor2flocculant: the guy on ubuntu-gnome is saying the same18:53
jarnosflocculant, I know neither username nor password.18:53
flocculantjarnos: try xubuntu or Xubuntu and no password18:53
flocculantdavmor2: that's zsyncing wily daily 18:54
jarnosflocculant, thanks18:54
flocculantdavmor2: our cdbuild log has for the last 2 days had "ssh: connect to host goldenapple.canonical.com port 22: Connection timed out" 18:55
flocculantanyway - finished zsync now without error 18:56
davmor2flocculant: goldenapple appears to be dead so if you get that one it times out IS is informed so hopefully this will go away soonish19:36
flocculantdavmor2: ok :)19:37
ochosiflocculant: upowerd crashes? i guess yeah, we should report that. not sure it's really our fault though19:40
flocculantochosi: ok - I'll let apport do it's thing then 19:41
flocculantochosi: should have got a complete set of vm tests done shortly - I'll manage a couple of hardware ones by the morning - then not much more I can do for trusty .3 19:43
ochosinice, thanks flocculant 19:45
ochosisorry i haven't been able to test much myself, am usually out of the house during the day19:45
flocculantyep I know :)19:48
bluesabreevening all22:36
ochosiabout to go to bed though22:37
ochosiso sorta "hi and bye" :)22:37
knomenight ochosi 22:37
ochosiLO 5.0 is available for testing from their PPA22:37
ochosiso all of those who use the iconset, please upgrade22:38
ochosii've pushed a first fix to it today22:38
ochosialso, i'll be away all day tomorrow22:38
ochosiso hf everyone!22:38
knomeyou too22:38
bluesabrethanks ochosi22:50

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