[03:04] <bluesabre> if anybody is interested in checking out the next menulibre and looking for any annoying bugs... https://code.launchpad.net/~menulibre-dev/+archive/ubuntu/daily :)
[03:04] <Unit193> Yer up late.
[03:05] <bluesabre> trying not to be
[03:05] <bluesabre> :D
[03:05] <bluesabre> summary of changes: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~menulibre-dev/menulibre/master/revision/290#NEWS
[03:09] <bluesabre> tomorrow I'll start poking folks for lo-style-elementary as an alternative to tango/human themes
[03:09] <bluesabre> bed time now
[07:46] <ochosi> cjbayliss: not sure, that is not a very standard location for such a button
[07:46] <ochosi> morning everyone
[07:47] <ochosi> bluesabre: i suggest we link all the bugs you tackle with the new menulibre release to the bugs blueprint, that way we can more meaningfully trace what happened during the cycle
[07:47] <ochosi> linked that one you marked "fix committed" yesterday
[07:49] <ochosi> oh, and a few others :)
[08:24] <ochosi> knome: btw, for the community funded server space for our tracker, i could approach david planella again (you remember, my affirmed/rejected application for community donations fund)
[08:25] <ochosi> lemme know what you had in mind there
[08:35] <knome> sure
[08:35] <knome> basically, i had nothing in specific in mind there
[08:36] <knome> remind you, hardware/servers for me are "i don't care as long as it works"
[08:36] <knome> practically, i need a server that can do php, sqlite/mysql and cron
[08:37] <knome> and ssh...
[08:37] <knome> :P
[08:38] <knome> it can be a webhotel-like setup - as long as it does what is mentioned above
[08:38] <Unit193> Bummer, there goes that.  I only have telnet.
[08:38] <knome> and what comes from cron, it'd better be unrestricted than "you can do one cron job a day"
[08:39] <knome> be back in 15-30
[08:42] <ochosi> knome: right, but i meant whether you had any plans wrt financing, so i know whether it makes sense to ask david. also an estimated annual cost would be good to have before i get in touch with him
[08:43] <ochosi> fwiw, the automated testing initiative by nicholas skaggs and others will be community-hosted too (i don't think they have settled on a provider yet, but it's clear it's not going to be canonical-based)
[08:45] <ochosi> not sure whether there is any potential (or wish or openness or... benefit) for cooperation on any side
[08:59] <knome> i'm sure we can cooperate, but otoh, i don't know what the performance would be on that, considering it would make sense to take up all resources when testing
[09:00] <knome> pleia2 and Unit193 would likely have better ideas of hosting costs (outside finland), but it's likely to be less than 100 euros per year anyway
[09:00] <knome> even if you had a small virtual server completely controlled by yourself
[09:01] <knome> what i'm trying to say is that i don't know enough of the options to pick and ultimately, i don't care :]
[09:03] <ochosi> okeydokey :)
[09:11] <knome> i guess at the same time, there is this question whether the whole xubuntu.org domain should be hosted on that server
[09:11] <knome> maybe not
[09:11] <knome> because i don't think the SSL stuff is so easy then
[09:11]  * knome sighs and shrugs
[09:12] <ochosi> i guess if we get our own hosting, the question arises whether we want to set up our own (less laggy) wiki
[09:14] <knome> yep, i've been thinking about that too
[09:15] <knome> anything that does under the "dev." subdomain would be fine with that hosting
[09:15] <knome> to keep some kind of guidelines for the scope
[09:15] <knome> then it's also easier to rationalize
[09:15] <ochosi> i really wouldn't mind getting that stuff more integrated in our website through that
[09:16] <knome> in what way would that be?
[09:16] <ochosi> currently even the general color-scheme (and i know that sounds petty) suggests the stuff on the wiki is somehow different
[09:16] <knome> sure
[09:16] <ochosi> i dunno, e.g. by keeping the header of the website even in the wiki
[09:16] <knome> if we set up our own wiki, then it definitely should be integrated with at least the devel area
[09:16] <ochosi> not so much "open link in new tab" feeling
[09:18] <knome> if/when we set this up
[09:18] <knome> we might want to consider another menu bar for the website
[09:18] <knome> which would have links like
[09:18] <knome> website  developers  launchpad  ...
[09:18] <knome> whatever
[09:18] <knome> and then integrate them all with that
[09:18] <knome> well, we can't integrate lp with that
[09:18] <knome> but anyway...
[09:19] <knome> because i don't think the same idea for layouting goes for the devel area than the user facing website
[09:19] <knome> or practically: the same theme won't work well with both
[09:20] <knome> which is why i haven't tried to mimic the website theme on the tracker
[09:22] <ochosi> hm, yeah you're prolly right there
[09:23] <ochosi> but then again, the tracker feels so much more "xubuntu" than the ubuntu wiki or the old tracker or lp ftm...
[09:23] <ochosi> also, it's just really nicely balanced, +1 on the colorscheme
[09:24] <knome> of course
[09:24] <knome> thanks
[09:24] <knome> i mean, sure, i'll try to make it more xubuntu, that's for sure
[09:25] <knome> and if/when we set up the developer area (with wiki perhaps), i'll likely take even more time to make it look integrated
[09:25] <knome> add a xubuntu logo etc...
[09:26] <knome> didn't want that stuff to take time/motivation away from getting the features right
[09:26] <ochosi> yeah, totally makes sense
[09:26] <ochosi> (and obviously paid off)
[09:32] <knome> ffff, 20+°C here
[09:32] <knome> not my favorite
[09:33] <dkessel> hmmm, i frequently have thunar crashing after renaming files (in wily) - is that a known "feature"?
[09:33] <ochosi> dkessel: doesn't sound like one
[09:34] <ochosi> but is it reproducible on v?
[09:34] <dkessel> do i have V? :)
[09:34] <ochosi> i dunno :) do you? (v for vivid, not vendetta)
[09:34] <dkessel> i am renaming files in a way that they will change order in the folder afterwards
[09:34] <dkessel> no i am only running trusty and wily
[09:35] <ochosi> have you tried to use the same thunar version on trusty (e.g. via PPA)
[09:35] <dkessel> the rename is successful, but the thunar window just disappears afterwards. no crash notification either
[09:35] <ochosi> (just to exclude that it's a bug in gvfs or something like that)
[09:35] <ochosi> heh, so that's why you said "feature" :)
[09:36] <dkessel> mh. not yet. got to go back to work. taking a note to investigate further...
[09:36] <ochosi> thanks!
[10:59] <bluesabre> thanks ochosi
[10:59] <ochosi> np
[11:00] <ochosi> felt it would be valuable so i just went ahead and did it ;)
[11:00] <bluesabre> :D
[11:00] <ochosi> also, i like to feed the tracker now that i enjoy it
[11:00] <bluesabre> I'm working on getting VMs up for each desktop environment to test with... just to make sure that 2.0.7 is that last 2.0.x release :)
[11:01] <ochosi> :)
[11:01] <ochosi> sounds awesome
[11:01] <ochosi> i wonder btw whether there's any clear rationale as to why e.g. gedit has the "new" button with a label in the headerbar
[11:01] <ochosi> instead of just using the document-new icon
[11:02] <ochosi> guess i'd have to skim the HIG a bit
[11:02] <bluesabre> probably
[11:02] <bluesabre> I've noticed that gnome apps present their headerbars all a bit differently... so if I had to guess I'd say the rules are not too specific there
[11:03] <ochosi> hmm
[11:03] <ochosi> soo....
[11:04] <ochosi> one takeaway for me is that headerbar controls should be dynamic
[11:04] <ochosi> i.e. change or update depending on the selection/view
[11:04] <ochosi> so i guess it doesn't make sense to show the undo/redo buttons initially
[11:04] <ochosi> especially when there's nothing to undo/redo
[11:04] <ochosi> and no "delete" button when nothing is selected
[11:04] <ochosi> that one should only appear when it would work
[11:05] <bluesabre> I'm not a huge fan of dynamic controls
[11:05] <ochosi> seems like the HIG suggests not to put insensitive items in the headerbar normally
[11:05] <bluesabre> imagine if icons appeared and disappeared in libreoffice
[11:05] <bluesabre> :D
[11:05] <ochosi> yeah, obviously menulibre!=libreoffice
[11:05] <ochosi> libreoffice with headerbar is quite unthinkable
[11:05] <bluesabre> indeed
[11:06] <ochosi> btw, the "new" button also is a label in the HIG: https://developer.gnome.org/hig/stable/header-bars.html.en
[11:06] <ochosi> that page is not a bad read tbh
[11:07] <bluesabre> ah, there's not really multiple views in menulibre though
[11:07] <bluesabre> it's always in editor view
[11:09] <bluesabre> gedit's open button https://i.imgur.com/9exSoYk.png
[11:09] <bluesabre> the new tab button next to it is the "new" button
[11:11] <bluesabre> I can see hiding/showing the delete button, but any other button would be revealed if the app was used at all
[11:14] <ochosi> right
[11:15] <ochosi> the "new" button somehow makes sense as a combobox btw
[11:15] <ochosi> like in gedit
[11:15] <ochosi> since you open a popup with multiple options
[11:19] <ochosi> instead of executing a single action
[11:19] <bluesabre> yeah, makes sense
[11:20] <bluesabre> don't want the headerbar to become too cluttered though
[11:20] <bluesabre> app icon, app controls, search bar, window controls
[11:20] <bluesabre> it starts getting a bit messy
[11:22] <bluesabre> but really, that'd only be an extra button's width, so I shouldn't whine :)
[11:23] <bluesabre> I'll make that change later today (unless you want to go ahead and play with it)
[11:25] <ochosi> :)
[11:26] <ochosi> dunno, i guess the current menu would have to be converted to a popover for this to really work, no?
[11:26] <ochosi> also, what's the rationale behind the label next to the delete icon?
[11:26] <bluesabre> ochosi: no particular reason, I just copied geary's design on that
[11:27] <bluesabre> I'll probably drop that label
[11:27] <bluesabre> it's fairly useless :D
[11:27] <bluesabre> and yeah, the plan is to replace the menu with a popover
[11:27] <bluesabre> make things more consistent
[11:28] <ochosi> right, i'd rather use the label for the "new" combobox tbh ;)
[11:28] <bluesabre> mhm
[11:30] <ochosi> anyway, can probably poke that part a bit
[11:30] <ochosi> what's the "refresh" button good for?
[11:31] <ochosi> and, shouldn't that really go into the menu or is that something ppl would use regularly enough to take up so much space?
[11:31] <ochosi> oh wow, that's "revert"?
[11:33] <bluesabre> yeah, that's revert
[11:33] <bluesabre> is there a better standard icon for revert?
[11:33] <ochosi> i'll take a look
[11:33] <ochosi> but refresh really doesn't work for me
[11:34] <ochosi> what's the exact usecase though?
[11:34] <ochosi> resetting a complete desktop file?
[11:34] <bluesabre> yes
[11:34] <bluesabre> undo all my changes to last saved state
[11:35] <ochosi> humm
[11:35] <bluesabre> document-revert-symbolic?
[11:35] <ochosi> yeah
[11:35] <ochosi> that sounds ok
[11:35] <ochosi> but i hope that doesn't conflict too badly with "undo"
[11:36] <ochosi> somehow i'd rather have that somewhere else tbh
[11:36] <ochosi> idea: make the "undo" a combobox as well with either the previous steps listed (like history) and as a last step "revert to initial state" or something
[11:36] <ochosi> too much work?
[11:37] <bluesabre> probably
[11:37] <ochosi> :)
[11:37] <bluesabre> I have the history stored as a stack, but it would be ugly to do something like that
[11:37] <ochosi> or make it a combobox and say "go back 1 step" and "go back to step 1" :D
[11:37] <bluesabre> ew ew ew
[11:38] <bluesabre> http://i.imgur.com/C8EtKbA.png
[11:38] <ochosi> hehe
[11:38]  * ochosi likes to appal bluesabre 
[11:39] <ochosi> right, that icon is much better
[11:40] <ochosi> what is somehow fun is that the "move up" and "-down" buttons are also affecting the same items like the buttons in the headerbar, but they're in a totally different place :)
[11:40] <ochosi> then again, pushing all of this to the inline toolbar is probably fugly
[11:40] <ochosi> btw, where are you standing on flipping the switch back for gtk overlay scrollbars? still no likey with greybird's better theming?
[11:41] <bluesabre> I'll have to take a look again
[11:41] <bluesabre> are the mini-scrollbars transparent?
[11:41] <ochosi> it'd be best for you to try yourself
[11:41] <ochosi> i can screenshot them, then again i guess handson is better
[11:42] <bluesabre> I'll test it tonight
[11:42] <bluesabre> re: move icons, the context is slightly different, editing the menu as opposed to the launcher
[11:42] <ochosi> greybird1.6 already should have the theming for it
[11:43] <bluesabre> right
[11:44] <ochosi> so flipping the switch should be enough to test immediately
[11:44] <ochosi> in wily
[11:44] <bluesabre> yup
[11:44] <bluesabre> just moving quickly this morning to get ready for work
[11:44] <bluesabre> :D
[11:44] <ochosi> :)
[11:44] <ochosi> i think i'll do a new greybird release soon btw
[11:45] <ochosi> i guess no progress on getting shimmer-themes back under our umbrella
[11:45] <ochosi> i might actually try to get the CSD shadow to match the xfwm4 shadow more
[11:45] <ochosi> that's one last thing that bugs me
[11:46] <bluesabre> :)
[11:47] <bluesabre> committed the revert icon
[11:47] <ochosi> k nice
[11:53] <flocculant> knome: thanks for pinging that mail from Adam to the list
[11:54] <flocculant> dkessel: if that crash on rename is a feature - then I'm missing it 
[12:03] <ochosi> bluesabre: oh meh, changing that to a combobox is not that easy, that's a menu...
[12:05] <ochosi> pleia2, knome: about hosting the xubuntu tracker somewhere community-funded, i have talked to dpm about that briefly today and he said that if we were to apply for that, he'd +1 it and that he thinks this'd be great. so i guess our chances of getting the funding for the hosting are pretty good.
[12:06] <ochosi> pleia2: since you seem to be the hosting guru around here, what would you recommend? or can you just put together an offer for that at a company/provider you can recommend? i guess asking for ~100€ p.a. should be fine
[12:06] <ochosi> pleia2: would be great if you could get back to me on that so we can split the work into workitems somehow
[12:12] <bluesabre> ochosi: a combobox is probably not the right way to go either... we're not making a selection, but performing an action... right?
[12:12] <bluesabre> gotta run, bbl
[12:13] <bluesabre> in the case of the combobox, it'd be difficult to create the same type of thing twice without resetting the combo... which just makes it a button
[12:26] <ochosi> right
[12:28] <ochosi> so what is it in gedit then?
[12:36] <pleia2> ochosi: I have capacity right now on the ubuntu-us.org server
[12:36] <pleia2> that's a linode that has been donated to the community
[12:37] <pleia2> I could also ask gandi.net to hook us up, but if I don't need to manage another system, I'd be happy :)
[12:38] <pleia2> if knome can get me his ssh key in the next 40 minutes, I can set up an account (otherwise airplanes all day)
[12:48]  * pleia2 sends msgs to knome
[12:49] <knome> pleia2, but you already have my ssh key...
[12:49] <pleia2> knome: I grabbed from launchpad :)
[12:49] <knome> yep
[12:49] <knome> thanks
[12:58] <ochosi> pleia2: oh ok, that sounds perfect as well!
[12:58] <ochosi> thanks for setting that up then! :)
[12:58] <pleia2> sure :)
[12:59] <ochosi> so is that pro bono or shall we apply for community funds still?
[13:00] <ochosi> knome, pleia2: also, dpm said they "generally recommend to host externally for more flexibility and to avoid blocking on Canonical IS"
[13:00] <pleia2> this is the server that runs ubuntu-us.org and a couple other state team blogs
[13:00] <ochosi> knome: in case you're still considering moving the x.org site as a whole
[13:00] <pleia2> gandi.net is super supportive and I have a contact over there, so they could likely give us a free VPS if we want one
[13:00] <knome> ochosi, yep, i still am
[13:01] <knome> pleia2, ^
[13:01] <pleia2> noted
[13:01] <knome> but heh, we just asked for SSL
[13:01] <knome> go us
[13:01] <ochosi> :>
[13:01] <pleia2> heh :)
[13:01] <knome> i don't know how *that* works out on external hosting
[13:01] <ochosi> well, live and learn ;)
[13:01] <ochosi> dunno, we can ask i guess
[13:02] <ochosi> or do you know anything about the ubuntu-us server and SSL?
[13:02] <knome> i mean
[13:02] <knome> the technical issues likely aren't the issue
[13:02] <knome> the social/funding issues might be
[13:02] <knome> or "how do we use a SSL certificate paid by canonical on a gandi hosted site" type of things
[13:02] <knome> but then i don't know much of that...
[13:03] <ochosi> i guess we can always ask
[13:03] <knome> does it echo in here?
[13:03] <ochosi> but if canonical encourages the community folks to move to external hosting...
[13:03] <ochosi> does it echo in here?
[13:03] <knome> :D
[13:04] <pleia2> we could also use community funding to pay for our own cert, they renew every year anyway so we wouldn't always need to use the associated private key that canonical may not wish to part with
[13:04] <knome> right, that's an option
[13:05] <ochosi> yeah
[13:05] <knome> right now i'm hungry and grumpy
[13:05] <ochosi> i guess dpm would be fine with that too
[13:05] <knome> but really, i'd just like somebody else to take care of this
[13:05] <knome> i can handle the migration from server to server
[13:06] <knome> and things associated with it
[13:06] <pleia2> I'd rather not volunteer to run a whole 'nother server right now ;)
[13:06] <knome> i understand that
[13:06] <ochosi> :)
[13:06] <pleia2> so we can chat about all that later
[13:06] <knome> yes, likely the best way to go
[13:06] <knome> let's let IS set up SSL 
[13:06] <ochosi> shall we put it in a workitem though or throw it on the meeting agenda not to forget?
[13:06] <knome> and use this server for the tracker for now
[13:06] <knome> i can add a work item
[13:07] <ochosi> k, thx
[13:07] <ochosi> so basically this: /dev goes to ubuntu-us for the tracker, the rest remains where it is?
[13:07] <ochosi> or did you mean: migrate to ubuntu-us with x.org and everything that belongs to it and sort out SSL with IS?
[13:07] <knome> huh
[13:07] <knome> no
[13:07] <pleia2> just setting up tracker for now
[13:08] <knome> let's keep IS hosting for xubuntu.org for now
[13:08] <knome> and let them set up SSL there
[13:08] <knome> as requested
[13:08] <knome> then just move the tracker over the -us server
[13:08] <knome> and let dust settle
[13:08] <ochosi> ok, sounds ok to me
[13:12]  * pleia2 wanders over to airplane
[13:12] <knome> have fun flying
[13:13] <ochosi> +1
[13:32] <knome> pleia2, once you're around, we'll need sqlite3 for php..
[13:36] <knome> bbl
[15:57] <flocculant> ochosi: upowerd crash coming back from lock, need that reported? 
[18:19] <davmor2> Hey xubuntu people, are you guys taking part in the testing of 14.04.3? If so who is the best person to talk to please
[18:19] <knome> davmor2, flocculant 
[18:19] <davmor2> flocculant: ah hello :)
[18:19] <davmor2> knome: thanks
[18:20] <knome> no problemo
[18:35] <davmor2> flocculant: you might want to join #ubuntu-release incase there are any critical issues you discover.
[18:47] <flocculant> davmor2: yep - I know about -release and will be sure to if there's a need. Actually only got 2 testers on .3 and not got any critical issues that have been seen or reported 
[18:48] <jarnos> how can you log in to sessi
[18:48] <davmor2> flocculant: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/344/builds is the current 14.04.3 are they reporting their findings to daily still?
[18:49] <flocculant> 'they' are me and one other team member - he's US time and probably hasn't seen rebuild 
[18:49] <jarnos> ..on after resume from suspend to RAM in the live session of the development xubuntu?
[18:50] <flocculant> jarnos: not sure - never seen the need to suspend a live session 
[18:51] <davmor2> flocculant: ah okay cool :)
[18:51] <flocculant> just about to check them actually 
[18:52] <flocculant> davmor2: they'll be marked on the tracker one way or the other tomorrow :)
[18:52] <flocculant> keep getting zsync issues ... 
[18:52] <davmor2> flocculant: awesome thanks 
[18:53] <davmor2> flocculant: the guy on ubuntu-gnome is saying the same
[18:53] <jarnos> flocculant, I know neither username nor password.
[18:53] <flocculant> jarnos: try xubuntu or Xubuntu and no password
[18:54] <flocculant> davmor2: that's zsyncing wily daily 
[18:54] <jarnos> flocculant, thanks
[18:55] <flocculant> davmor2: our cdbuild log has for the last 2 days had "ssh: connect to host goldenapple.canonical.com port 22: Connection timed out" 
[18:56] <flocculant> anyway - finished zsync now without error 
[19:03] <ObrienDave> \o/
[19:36] <davmor2> flocculant: goldenapple appears to be dead so if you get that one it times out IS is informed so hopefully this will go away soonish
[19:37] <flocculant> davmor2: ok :)
[19:40] <ochosi> flocculant: upowerd crashes? i guess yeah, we should report that. not sure it's really our fault though
[19:41] <flocculant> ochosi: ok - I'll let apport do it's thing then 
[19:43] <flocculant> ochosi: should have got a complete set of vm tests done shortly - I'll manage a couple of hardware ones by the morning - then not much more I can do for trusty .3 
[19:45] <ochosi> nice, thanks flocculant 
[19:45] <ochosi> sorry i haven't been able to test much myself, am usually out of the house during the day
[19:48] <flocculant> yep I know :)
[22:36] <bluesabre> evening all
[22:37] <knome> hello
[22:37] <ochosi> hey
[22:37] <ochosi> about to go to bed though
[22:37] <ochosi> so sorta "hi and bye" :)
[22:37] <knome> heh
[22:37] <knome> night ochosi 
[22:37] <ochosi> LO 5.0 is available for testing from their PPA
[22:38] <ochosi> so all of those who use the iconset, please upgrade
[22:38] <ochosi> i've pushed a first fix to it today
[22:38] <ochosi> also, i'll be away all day tomorrow
[22:38] <ochosi> so hf everyone!
[22:38] <knome> you too
[22:39] <ochosi> ty
[22:50] <bluesabre> cool
[22:50] <bluesabre> thanks ochosi