dannfhallyn: hm... i probably did something wrong00:58
=== chaos7theory is now known as darth_chaos7
=== darth_chaos7 is now known as chaos7theory
infinityypwong: *poke*02:15
=== Tm_Tr is now known as Guest46635
sarnoldpitti: hey, about this new cloudy autopkgtest stuff, the "simple" way to run a specific package's tests looks pretty easy for the security team to use; but the proposed-migration stuff recently caught an apparmor packaging bug, and I'm curious if there's an easy way that we can use britney with local packages of some sort04:27
sarnoldpitti: .. whether that's copying them out of a private ppa, or normal ppa, or a directory with packages, or something similar04:27
sarnoldpitti: I know you're oing to be working on it in the next couple of weeks, and I thought it'd be nice to ask for a potentially different usecase than you might have thoght of so far :)04:28
sarnoldpitti: thanks :)04:28
pittiGood morning05:02
pittisarnold: my idea was to add extra arguments to the AMQP requests, like "enable this PPA for this test run"05:03
pittisarnold: so, I don't plan to set up a gazillion britney instances for PPAs centrally (maybe we can provide that as a service for PPAs some day)05:04
pittisarnold: but at least it gives you the machinery to run tests for yourself (even automatically, as sending AMQP requests is trivial to script from any language)05:04
pittiLaney: FYI, simple but effective: https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-release/+git/autopkgtest-cloud/commit/?id=96c375841da05:35
pittiLaney: with that you can just run "killall worker" on the worker controller, and they will all restart cleanly after finishing their current test05:35
pittiLaney: i. e. to roll out new code or config05:36
pitti(I'll also add this to the documentation, but FYI)05:36
pittiRiddell: hi!06:56
pittiRiddell: do you know what to do with the armhf symbol mismatch on https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kjs/5.12.0-0ubuntu2 ? (it's blocking quite a few more things)06:56
infinitypitti: Just a bug in the symbols file.07:06
infinitypitti: He tried to fix it in the last upload, but ended up with a duplicate line.07:06
infinityThough, why the symbol was dropped on armhf in the first place is a curious question.07:06
pitti+ (arch=!armhf)_ZTVN3KJS7JSValueE@Base 5.12.007:07
pitti  _ZTVN3KJS7JSValueE@Base 4.96.007:07
pittiah, I see07:07
pittiack, will fix07:07
pittiRiddell, infinity: fixed, thanks for pointin gout07:09
infinitypitti: Not that I agree with the fix, mind you, but it would have happened unnoticed if Riddell hadn't fat-fingered the change, and I think my carefactor about ABI breaks on 32-bit ARM on random KDE libraries is low.07:11
infinitypitti: Oh, and happily, it doesn't matter, since the ABI broke anyway for the C++ transition.07:12
infinitypitti: So, I guess it doesn't matter.07:12
infinityI said that twice.07:12
infinityI need to sleep.07:12
pittiinfinity: and that *does* matter :)07:13
dholbachgood morning07:13
infinitypitti: Hahaha.07:25
infinitypitti: Fix one, blow up the next library. ;)07:26
pittiinfinity: yeah, currently at it :/07:26
pittifortunately there's "only" two symbols files07:26
infinitypitti: Based on the symbols missing from the second library, it looks like it's linked to the first, and exporting its symbols.  Ick.07:26
pittihate hate hate C++07:27
infinityAlso, I shouldn't be able to read mangled symbols.07:27
infinityI hate myself a little bit for that.07:27
pittiall this just can't be right -- rebuilding unchanged source with a new compiler breaks ABI, WTF07:27
pitti</rant> sorry -- but really07:27
infinitypitti: Part of that is that we suck at filtering only-sorta-public symbols.  Which is kinda C++'s fault, and kinda our tooling.07:28
pittiwell, but it also breaks symbols from the actual API07:28
infinitypitti: If you take away templates that change on rebuild, but don't "really" break ABI, it's less scary.07:28
infinitypitti: But, of course, there are also real ABI breaks to contend with, which muddies the waters.07:28
infinitySo, whee.07:29
infinitypitti: I'm no great defender of C++.  Gimme C any day.07:29
infinitypitti: In this case, though, I suspect the armhf dropped symbols have nothing at all to do with the C++ transition, and we're just super lucky it's happening at the same time. :P07:30
infinitySo we can pretend not to care.07:30
LocutusOfBorg1Laney, wilco!07:52
flexiondotorgpitti, I'm running 15.10 and see you've been updating policykit recently.08:07
flexiondotorgpitti, I think I may have encountered a regression in pkexec.08:07
flexiondotorgpitti, But I'd like to just double check here because it maybe the behaviour change is intended.08:08
flexiondotorgpitti, I have a python application that runs another small helper python script using pkexec.08:09
flexiondotorgpitti, Where that once worked, now I get the following output:08:09
flexiondotorgThe value for the SHELL variable was not found the /etc/shells file08:10
flexiondotorgThis incident has been reported.08:10
flexiondotorgpitti, Ignore the above. The issue is with fish shell which doesn't update /etc/shells.08:16
LocutusOfBorg1Laney, question: how do I generate an symbols file?08:21
* LocutusOfBorg1 found https://wiki.debian.org/UsingSymbolsFiles08:22
LaneyLocutusOfBorg1: Running off now, but the first commands there look good and then the c++ bit a little way further down08:23
* Laney waves08:23
LocutusOfBorg1I read that symbols file for c++ projects were mostly useless.... but adding one anyway08:23
LaneyDepends how good the upstream is at controlling what they export08:24
Laneyreally ttyl :)08:24
LocutusOfBorg1bye! :D08:25
pittiflexiondotorg: yes, pk didn't change behaviour in ages really, except for a security fix which isn't related to what you describe08:25
dokoLaney, pitti: please could one of you do no-change uploads for openexr and libvigraimpex (after the next publisher run). I'll be on the train soonish08:26
dokoI mean, for the rdeps08:26
pittidoko: yep, will do08:26
flexiondotorgpitti, Thanks for replying. I confirm it is not a policykit regression.08:26
pittidoko: added to the pad; I started transitions of exiv2 and libxapian, wading through the build failures now08:27
pittianyone C++ savvy: how can a no-change rebuild against a new lib ABI succeed but change exported symbols? https://launchpadlibrarian.net/213741568/buildlog_ubuntu-wily-amd64.libkexiv2_4%3A15.04.2-0ubuntu2_BUILDING.txt.gz08:32
pittido C++ libs do such massive leaking of private symbols, or how is that being handled?08:33
pittidoko: ^ (perhaps you know)08:33
hyperairthere's -fvisibility08:33
hyperairbut a lot of libs don't use it08:33
hyperairand there are still a lot of leaked std:: symbols that i typically ignore using (optional)08:33
pittibut this isn't "standard" symbols08:33
pitti+#MISSING: 4:15.04.2-0ubuntu2# _ZN11KExiv2Iface11SubjectDataD1Ev@Base 4:4.10.308:33
pittithat's clearly from KExiv08:34
hyperairhang on lemme pipe that through c++filt08:34
hyperair- KExiv2Iface::KExiv2::Private::detectEncodingAndDecode(std::basic_string<char, std::char_traits<char>, std::allocator<char> > const&) const@Base 4:4.9.8008:34
hyperairstd::string has changed type08:34
hyperair+ KExiv2Iface::KExiv2::Private::detectEncodingAndDecode(std::__cxx11::basic_string<char, std::char_traits<char>, std::allocator<char> > const&) const@Base 4:15.04.2-0ubuntu208:34
hyperairwhich means that all functions which have std::string in their argument list will change signature08:35
pittihyperair: ah, so that means we need to rename libkexiv2-11 to libkexiv2-11v5 and do another transition?08:35
hyperairwhich consequently changes their mangled symbol08:35
pittithis is just plain crazy08:35
hyperairyeah well, it doesn't happen often.08:35
hyperairit's probably because of the std change08:35
hyperairthere were a couple of struct size changes between c++98 and c++1108:36
pittihyperair: ack, doing lib transition then, thanks08:36
mwhudsonso given that docker has a static binary, do we have any clever way of knowing which libs are built into it?08:44
mwhudsonso we can do a rebuild when any of those libs are updated?08:44
pittimwhudson: looking at it's Build-Depends:?08:44
cjwatsonmwhudson: Built-Using would be the right tool for the job, even though it won't be a complete answer as yet (because nothing's set up to specifically scan it)08:47
cjwatsonmwhudson: I thought dh-golang had something to emit that?08:48
mwhudsonoh right08:48
mwhudsonyeah, it does08:48
mwhudsondocker doesn't use it though :-)08:48
mwhudsonOur goal is to release the final version of Go 1.5 on August 20, 2015.08:51
mwhudsonmm that date looks familiar :-)08:51
pittiLaney, infinity: how can http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/exiv2-g++5.html be fixed to check for libexiv2-14?09:03
* pitti NBSes it from wily-proposed (no further rdepends), maybe that'll help09:06
mwhudsontoday's basket of ugh: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libguestfs/+bug/148199409:25
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1481994 in libguestfs (Ubuntu) "ftbfs in wily" [Undecided,New]09:25
mwhudsoncontrary to the bug title, i think ocaml-gettext was broken by the update to gcc 509:26
pitticjwatson: do you still know where the transition tracker lives?09:53
pittiapparently not on snakefruit, and lillypilly lost the ~ubuntu-archive role account09:54
cjwatsonpitti: it's on snakefruit09:59
cjwatsonpitti: start from ~ubuntu-archive/bin/update-transitions09:59
cjwatson(called from archive-reports)09:59
pitticjwatson: ah, thanks09:59
cjwatsonit's just cunningly hidden in an schroot10:00
pitticjwatson: I'd like to see whether I can convince it to fix http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/exiv2-g++5.html10:00
cjwatsonpitti: the configs are in lp:~ubuntu-transition-trackers/ubuntu-transition-tracker/configs/10:04
pitticjwatson: thanks! updating that10:04
cjwatsonpitti: actual code, I think it just uses the ben package from trusty10:05
cjwatsonand there's a 'go' script buried in the schroot10:05
=== utlemming is now known as utlemming_away
smbWhere would be the best channel trying to get hints about why i386 desktop isos fail to start a proper live session when running in a KVM VM. The obvious part is because compiz does not start, I just completely fail to find any log that would explain why that is. Maybe #ubuntu-desktop?10:26
seb128smb, is that wily?10:27
smbseb128, also, but basically all since and including Trusty10:28
seb128it's rather an issue with the vm graphic drivers than with the iso then I guess10:28
smbYeah, it is something with KVM/Qemu because Xen (while using the exactly same graphics emulation) does work (except Vivid which seems to be specially broken)10:29
seb128I doubt -desktop can help you10:30
seb128it's not an issue with the desktop in the image10:30
seb128but rather with the vm10:30
smbRight, I am mainly interested on whether there is any way to extract reasons on why compiz does not start. The X.org.logs of both Xen working and KVM not working seem to be the same and neither has any hard errors in them10:31
seb128on < vivid look into .cache/upstart/gnome-session-Unity.log10:32
seb128or >= vivid sudo journalctl10:32
seb128like the 3d rendering or software emulation not working10:33
smbseb128, I got the wily iso booted on Xen and KVM right now. So journalctl shows some warning level and above, but nothing that strikes as errors related to X up to a point where there seem follow up errors because of that (X resources unavailable). The X.org.log seems ok enough. At least the sw renderer seems to come up and visually you see background and the two icons (install and examples) rendered. Just nothing e10:42
smblse (which I would say is because of compiz not running)10:42
smbThere just seems to be no reason given anywhere why it did not get started (or failed to start)10:42
seb128smb, go to a vt and start DISPLAY=:0 compiz --replace and see what it goes?10:50
smbseb128, Interesting. Hm, so it starts and keeps running, but still no unity. Certainly because startup is screwed. Is there a similar magic for the unity part?10:55
seb128smb, unity is a plugin, you can try to run "unity" from the vt10:55
smbseb128, Ah thanks. That at least sheds a bit of light... Though cryptic. So I was guessing that "DISPLAY=:0 unity --replace" might be what I should try. Which seems to be okayish up to the point where LLVM tells me: "ERROR: Do not know how to split the result of this operator!"11:02
seb128smb, that's like your issue11:05
seb128smb, seems like bug #1360241 but that got fixed11:06
ubottubug 1360241 in llvm-toolchain-3.5 (Ubuntu) "[Regression] "LLVM ERROR: Do not know how to split the result of this operator!" in executing Ubuntu UI Toolkit tests on x86" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/136024111:06
smbseb128, Yeah, if only I would know how to parse this error message. :) But ok, at least something I can look for11:06
ubottullvm.org bug 21641 in LLVM assembly language parser "LLVM ERROR: Do not know how to split the result of this operator!" [Normal,New]11:06
smbHmmm, ok, so maybe there is a subtle difference in the cpu flags between KVM and Xen which sound like the only reasonable explanation to this. So llvm potentially runs different optimizations...11:10
smbseb128, Thanks, I think that got me somewhere11:10
seb128smb, yw!11:10
smbYay! It _is_ the cpu type that llvmpipe(i386) does not like12:36
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davmor2smb: I hit the same issue there is a bug in lp for it. I386 hates llvmpipe on the kvm cpu, I used -cpu host to get around it and then is works a charm13:09
smbdavmor2, Yeah if I knew about that one before... :-P It also works with -cpu core2duo. So with some other data gathered it may be either the model/stepping info or maybe one of PAT or VME that make i386 llvmpipe to go on strike13:11
davmor2smb: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/148129413:12
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1481294 in qemu (Ubuntu) "14.04.3: in kvm install full disk from the i386 install when you go to login it returns you to the login page" [Undecided,New]13:12
smbdavmor2, ah thanks. There is also the more generic bug 1448985 which I was looking at13:13
ubottubug 1448985 in qemu (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu 14.04 LTS, 14.10, 15.04, 15.10 guests do not boot to Unity from QEMU-KVM Ubuntu 14.04 LTS, 14.10, 15.04 hosts" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/144898513:13
davmor2smb: nice13:14
smbNow who do we talk to about go... err llvmpipe13:15
=== Luke_ is now known as Luke
Odd_BlokeWhat installs the symlinks in /etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/?13:41
Odd_BlokeOr, to ask my actual question, how can I get a service to start on boot when it's installed?13:42
pittiOdd_Bloke: dh_installinit, or if there's no corresponding init script to the .service, dh_install_{enable,start}13:42
pitti(see their manpages)13:42
pittiOdd_Bloke: sorry, dh_systemd_{enable,start}13:42
pittiOdd_Bloke: dh_systemd_enable will call systemctl enable, which creates that .wants/ symlink13:43
pittiOdd_Bloke: and d_s_start will start it immediately after package install13:43
Odd_Blokepitti: Excellent, thanks!13:44
Odd_Blokepitti: dh_systemd_enable isn't run by default?  So to enable all installed init things I need just 'override_dh_systemd_enable:\n dh_systemd_enable' in debian/rules?13:50
pittiOdd_Bloke: then you don't need to override it at all :) (if you don't want to supply options)13:51
pittiOdd_Bloke: usually, if you have a debian/foo.init and debian/foo.service, it'll just work13:51
Odd_BlokeAh, I don't have a foo.init.13:52
pittiOdd_Bloke: but you need a dh-systemd build dep and "--with systemd", perhaps that's missing?13:52
pittiOdd_Bloke: .init isn't strictly required, it is just necessary if you want sysvinit scripts to be able to depend on your service13:52
Odd_BlokeAha, no dh-systemd build dep.13:52
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pitticjwatson: did you happen to run across a case where builds/tests were randomly SIGTERMed? https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/notmuch/0.20.2-1build114:56
pitticjwatson: I can't reproduce this in a local sbuild, but it seems repeatable on the LP build14:56
cjwatsonpitti: I'm only aware of LP buildds doing that in the case of idle-for-too-long, which doesn't seem to be true here.14:57
pitticjwatson: does that use alarm() or so? (the test might set that), or does it time it out from "outside"?14:57
cjwatsonpitti: This test suite has its own timeout, though; could it be that?14:57
cjwatsonpitti: It does use alarm(), but several layers of process out from anything the test suite should care about directly14:58
pitticjwatson: ah, looks like the previous few builds all FTBFSed too14:58
pittiso this is not a recent thing, sorry for the noise14:58
pittilast built in trusty14:59
cjwatsonpitti: Also, it would say "Build killed with signal <something> after <something> minutes of inactivity" if it were sbuild14:59
cjwatsonpitti: np14:59
cjwatsonpitti: Maybe your machine is just faster than the buildds ...14:59
cjwatsonThough the buildds aren't exactly slow.15:00
pittithey must have a helluva precisely calibrated timeout :)15:00
cjwatsonThe build log says the test suite has a two-minute timeout15:00
cjwatsonMaybe genuinely stalling for some reason, anyway15:01
pittiright, /me stops worrying15:01
pittiRiddell: wrt. https://launchpadlibrarian.net/213757621/buildlog_ubuntu-wily-amd64.k3d_0.8.0.3-7build3_BUILDING.txt.gz it seems test.hpp is gone from libboost1.58-dev; do you happen to know its replacement?15:09
pittithis thing has rather little google juice, except https://svn.boost.org/trac/boost/ticket/10965 which doesn't really give a solution15:10
pitti"For future reference, this stuff is in libs/math/include_private now. "15:10
pittibut I don't see where that would be15:10
Riddellpitti: I've no idea I'm afraid, it's a gnomey application ask a gnomey person15:12
pittiRiddell: ah, thanks; just thought you might have stumbled over this before15:13
pittislangasek: OOI, as you mentioned in the meeting: is there a particular reason why the transitions tracker is like 6 hours behind? is that looking at a lagging mirror instead of ftpmaster perhaps?15:15
cjwatsonpitti: it's not?15:20
cjwatsonI mean, where are you seeing six hours?  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/ghc.html is a bit under an hour back, and the state it's referring to is reasonably recent15:21
cjwatsonDefinitely well under six hours since I've done a couple of layers of that transition today15:21
pitticjwatson: e. g. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libkexiv2/4:15.04.2-0ubuntu4 built 5 hours ago, but http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/exiv2-g++5.html has all Xes15:21
pittihttps://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/strigi/0.7.8-1ubuntu5 even built 9 h ago15:21
cjwatsonThat must be something else15:21
cjwatsonNot just staleness15:21
pittihttps://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openimageio/1.5.17~dfsg0-1ubuntu2/+build/7766665 built 4 hours ago15:23
cjwatsonI'm not sure what; strigi should be unknown there, I'd have thought15:23
pittiso yeah, bit weird15:23
cjwatsonThe Xes don't mean "unbuilt", in any case15:24
slangasekpitti: the tracker gets the answer wrong when the binary package names have changed.15:24
slangasek(see discussion on #ubuntu-release yesterday w/ Laney)15:24
cjwatsonAh right, it probably doesn't do a proper merge15:24
pittislangasek: ah! yeah, the bits that are stale look library-ish15:24
slangasekit apparently goes "oh, this is the most recent version of this binary package from that source, and it has a wrong dependency, therefore the source package is 'bad'" and never looks at the fact that there's a newer source, with binaries built, none of which depend on the bad package name15:25
slangasekand it's ben so I'm not going to try to debug it15:25
cjwatsonIt would be simpler to do a merge out of band with the same logic we use in proposed-migration15:25
pittiack, thanks for the heads-up15:25
cjwatsonThat is, discard would-be-NBS binaries from the old source if there's evidence of a newer build for that arch15:26
cjwatsonBut you don't have to make the tracker green, anyway, it's just a convenience15:26
* pitti waves15:57
slangasekcjwatson: not making the tracker green makes it very hard to use the tracker to coordinate work16:12
slangasekso maybe I'll try to look at what p-m is doing16:13
cjwatsonslangasek: agreed16:14
cjwatson"partial_upgrade" is probably the horrifying keyword to search for16:15
slangasekok, thanks :)16:15
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=== utlemming_away is now known as utlemming
sarnoldpitti: that's awesome news, re ampq tooling; thanks. (something we could run locally would also work, but canonical has more computers than I do :)18:11
infinitysarnold: And whose fault is that?  Buy more computers!18:14
sarnoldinfinity: sarnistack is gonna be awesome!18:15
slangasekcjwatson: so I'm failing to find anything in proposed-migration matching partial_upgrade20:51
slangasekcjwatson: is it 'partial_unstable'?20:54
cjwatsonslangasek: oh yes that20:54
cjwatsonbrain failure, sorry20:54
cjwatsonthe massive bodge I added for Ubuntu's suite layout, anyway :P20:54
slangasektdaitx: ^^ ok, this is what we're looking for, in lp:~ubuntu-release/britney/britney2-ubuntu20:54
slangasekright :)20:54
tdaitxslangasek, thanks =)20:55
slangasekI assume this will mostly be illustrative of the concept rather than providing any code we can cut'n'paste ;)20:55
sl1rpyokay, i was talkiing to someone in the main #ubuntu channel and supposedly paid apps show up in ubuntu 14.04 but i havent seen them show up in 15.0420:55
tdaitxthat works fine20:55
sl1rpyi thought i saw them in 14.10 just fine20:55
slangaseksl1rpy: not really the channel for this fwiw, but I believe that apps show up as available for each given Ubuntu release only after they've been tested for compatibility with it and marked as available?20:56
sl1rpyah.. because of newer libraries20:57
sl1rpymakes sense now20:57
cjwatsonslangasek,tdaitx: right - the basic idea is just to try to work out whether binaries have been superseded by a newer build for the same arch even if the actual binary in question has gone away in the newer version, but this is complicated by things like binary versions not necessarily matching source versions, binaries changing from arch-dependent to arch-independent between versions, and other such things20:58
cjwatsonslangasek,tdaitx: I'm pretty sure proposed-migration gets it right now, but it took me several goes!  indeed you probably won't be able to cut-and-paste actual code, but it might be a good idea to make sure you have every step of the algorithm ...20:59
infinityIs this an attempt to teach ben about partial suites and disappearing binaries?21:01
infinityIf so, wow.21:02
infinitytdaitx: I don't know what you said in your interview, but I'm pretty sure you offended slangasek.21:02
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=== beisner-afk is now known as beisner
tdaitxinfinity, lol21:23
tdaitxinfinity, it is probably because I only mentioned IDL and php _after_ being hired =P21:24
cjwatsoninfinity: It only needs to go in the wrapper, which is a lot less scary :-)22:03
cjwatsonThough also, I think, not in revision control anywhere22:03
smoseri'm wanting to put mdadm into the cloud image22:53
smoserbut am not overly thrilled about pulling in22:53
smoser Recommends: default-mta22:53
smoseranyone have thoughts on that?22:53
infinitysmoser: It likes to mail people when your raid is degraded.  It's a fairly valid thing, I'd say.22:54
infinitysmoser: One could take the opposite stance that anything without a hard dep on an MTA shouldn't have a recommends either, because admins know if they do or don't want one and are aware of the consequences.  But are they? :P22:55
smoseri agree that it has good reason to use an mta22:56
smoserbut if i apt-get install... its unlikely that i'm going to configure my mta22:57
smoserand if i expect you to later on decide to configure your mta in order to be told of failing disks, then you would probably realize you didnt have one when you went to configure it.22:57
smoserprobably would :)22:57
smoserdoes that seem sane ? ie, we're Recommending you install an mta, but really we're Recommending that you install and configure your mta.22:58
infinitysmoser: I wouldn't object strenuously to dropping the recommends to a suggests, though it might be nice to convince the Debian maintainer(s) of that too, so we're not carrying a (nearly) pointless delta.22:59
smoseri guess though if you already had one installed and then you install mdadm, the world is a happy place.22:59
smoserok. i think i'llf ile ubuntu and debian bugs and then maybe pick up a delta.23:00
smoserthanks infinity23:00
ScottKsmoser: on a normal installation postfix will pop up via debconf and ask to be configured.23:10
infinityScottK: Yeah, but not if preinstalled in a cloud image.23:11
ScottKRight, but I think that makes is a personal problem for cloudy things.23:12
infinityScottK: So, then he's entering "do I force this as a first-boot-config thing on users, leave it broken until they run dpkg-reconfigure, or not install at all".23:12
ScottKOn regular systems it works exactly as one would hope.23:12
ScottKSure, but I'm arguing don't screw up a working thing because cloud.23:12
infinityScottK: I'm pretty fence-sitty wishy-washy about anything that "recommends" an MTA, though.23:13
infinityScottK: Hard dependency, sure, go for it, you need /usr/sbin/sendmail, have at 'er, and I get to keep the broken bits when I configure it wrong.23:13
infinityScottK: But for optional functionality, I'm less convinced that it should ever be the default to install an MTA (at least in Ubuntu, where we tried to hard to get it out of the standard install in the first place).23:13
infinitys/tried to/tried so/23:14
infinityIn Debian, it was more traditional to always have an MTA, so the recommends tended to be no-ops.23:14
ScottKIs mdadm in the default install?23:14
infinityNo, but he's wanting to put it in the default cloud install.23:14
infinityIt also ends up in the "default" server install iff you install to raid.23:15
infinityNot even sure what happens there, now that I think about it.23:15
infinityd-i might install it without recommends.23:15
infinityOr you might get a broken MTA.23:15
infinityOr you might be forced to configure an MTA during install.23:15
infinityI don't test that path often enough, clearly.23:15
ScottKAlso, postfix isn't a particularly heavy thing to install.23:16
infinityScottK: I'm sure mjt will have opinions.  He tends to have those.23:17
ScottKSo it'd probably be better, at least for now, to leave it be and smoser can preseed a no-op configuration if he doesn't want people to have to configure during install.23:17
infinityScottK: Most MTAs aren't heavy, but misconfigured MTAs are crap, and even after all the handholding exim and postfix gave people, they're still super good at doing it wrong.23:17
infinityScottK: Honestly, though, I think the recommends fails the test for what makes a recommends not a suggests.23:18
smoserScottK, i dont care so much about the configuration23:18
smoseras the install will occur in the cloud image build process.23:18
ScottKI see.23:18
smoseri'd rather not have the mta installed. as it carries with it some megabytes i think are most likely not needed.23:18
ScottKIf not configured, postfix is safe.  Won't cause any problems.23:18
smoserother than the megabytes23:18
infinityWhich matters when you're spamming images at N compute nodes, yes.23:19
ScottKInstalled-Size: 3568 seems like not much, but meh.23:19
infinitysmoser: Another option is to not add it to your usual packageset/seed/whatever, but to install it in a chroot hook with --no-install-recommends.23:20
infinityScottK: It all adds up.23:20
infinity(But size is a stupid argument for avoiding a dep, the right argument is "is the dep level correct?")23:20
smoserinfinity, right. that could definitely be done, but that breaks "recommends by default". which we've not done up until this point23:20
infinityIf there's a significant reduction in functionality without an MTA, it's a recommends.23:20
smoser(admittedly we're side-stepping that :)23:20
ScottKI think that degradation notifications are pretty essential for mdadm.23:21
infinitymdadm doesn't have a significant loss in functionality without an MTA, it just loses the spam feature.23:21
ScottKThe only way I think you don't want the mail is if you have nagios or something else letting you know.23:21
ScottKI don't recall.  Does our mdadm continue through the boot process or not when degraded?23:22
ScottKIt's been yes or no at different time.23:22
ScottKIf the answer's no, then not knowing about the degradation would be bad.23:23
infinityWe used to boot degraded by default.23:23
infinityWe bloody well better still.23:23
smoserso per apt , in cloud-image with recommends :23:23
smoser 4,904 kB of additional disk space will be used.23:23
infinityCause it's a nightmare when not.23:23
smoser 1,191 kB of additional disk space will be used.23:23
smoserso that is 3.7M that it costs me in space, which is admittedly not a lot, but i'm trying to make images smaller as a general goal.23:24
infinitysmoser: And then shrink by zlib compression rate or whatever, cause unpacked rootfs size doesn't matter, it's size of the image you shove across the wire (AMIs, glance images, etc)23:24
infinitysmoser: Which are all compressed formats, I assume.23:24
smoserwell, yes. the size of the compressed transferrable image matters. but so does the size of the space taken up.23:25
smoserwhen booted.23:25
infinitysmoser: Not nearly as much, though.23:25
infinityAnyhow, like I said, size is the wrong argument.23:25
smoseri dont know.23:25
infinityIf it's a legit recommends, don't cut corners because cloud is special.23:25
infinityIf it's not legit, downgrade to suggests.23:26
infinityArgue until conclusion reached.23:26
infinitysmoser: Are cloud instances backed by multiple disks a really common use-case anyway?  Seems kinda entirely against the point of how cloud things are meant to work.23:27
infinity"It's ephemeral, but I want RAID for redundancy" is just weird.  And "It's ephemeral, but I want RAID0 for speed" ignores the fact that you usually have zero control over your backing devices, and would have no way of knowing if you just slowed it all down by striping across two unknowns.23:28
smoserpeople use raid on ec2 for performance23:29
infinityThose people are weird.  But okay.23:30
smoserthe other motivating factor ..23:30
smoseris that cloud images become maas images23:30
smoserand maas images want to use raid (for hardware)23:30
smoserand i want cloud images and maas images *more* the same23:30
infinityAnd curtin can't "apt-get install mdadm" if it installed to raid?23:31
infinityAnyhow, I can argue both sides of this argument until I'm blue in the face.23:32
infinityBut you have to evaluate this on the merit of the dep, not your specific goal.23:33
ScottKinfinity: http://web.archive.org/web/20130313083303/http://netsplit.com/2012/10/30/goodbye-ubuntu was what had me wondering about what we did on degraded raid.23:34
ScottK(yes, I did remember a three year old blog post)23:34
infinityScottK: Yes, I too remember that post.  I also remember the complete lack of bug reports or reference to what actually went wrong.23:37
infinityScottK: "It broke because my magic wasn't there."23:37
ScottKYou don't generally get those in the "I give up" blog post.23:37
infinityScottK: Yeah, but it also makes the rant entirely useless as a data point except "Scott hates us", which we already knew by that point. :P23:39
ScottKIt was mostly the mention of the didn't boot degraded event.23:40
infinityScottK: Yeah, but even that was wishy-washy enough to not know what actually happened, or what it was telling him.23:40
infinityScottK: Anyhow, I remember having long arguments with people that booting degraded was the only sane thing on headless servers.  And I think that's the current state of things.  But maybe I should test that. :P23:41
ScottKMay be.23:41
infinityBut what I really need is someone to sell me pie.23:42
infinityI failed to breakfast correctly, and lunched even more poorly, and now all I want is pie.  I think something broke me today.23:42
smoseri do like pie23:43
infinitysmoser: An interesting ubuntu-specific compromise to the mdadm/mta argument might be to drop it to a suggests *and* make the cronjob spit out an angry update-motd snippet.23:44
infinitysmoser: That's slightly less visible than an angry email, but way more visible than a missed email in a blackhole of an unconfigured MTA.23:45
infinityScottK: ^-- thoughts?23:45
ScottKSince we already have a diff, that might be OK.23:45
infinitysmoser: I think if my motd told me with intense anger on every login that my raid array was FUBAR, I might notice.23:45

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