[00:35] <bazhang> trouble is my second middle name
[00:35] <bazhang> after prescient
[01:52] <hggdh> indeed
[08:24] <zetheroo> can I be un-muted from the #ubuntu channel?
[08:32] <zetheroo> anyone around? :)
[09:42] <k1l> too much open proxies out there
[09:48] <zetheroo> can I be un-muted from the #ubuntu channel?
[09:50] <zetheroo> k1l: 👋
[09:53] <k1l> zetheroo: i did set the mute to expire after 24h
[09:54] <zetheroo> so I have to wait another 5+ hours ... ok
[09:56] <k1l> i tried to talk to you about the reason why i dont want to unmute you immediately but everytime you tried to escape and blame others. so i am not going to remove the mute before that deadline. maybe other ops see it differently and will talk to you then.
[10:52] <zetheroo> Just had lunch with our software developers (Ubuntu, iOS and Windows users) and showed them this whole thing, including the text on the Ubuntu website that I was referring to and they gave me the same bewildered reaction that I would expect to get ... that of it being misleading to new users to say that "built-in virus protection software" refers not to an actual Anti-Virus software but instead to the fact that Linux is a securely built OS. They also fo
[10:53] <k1l> zetheroo: you still expect a thingy with buttons and switches to feel safe
[10:54] <zetheroo> A new user should not have to input text commands into a prompt in order to enable something which is advertised as being "built-in" - it's just not elegant at all.
[10:54] <k1l> zetheroo: but ufw and apparmor work differently than the personal firewall and anti-virus programs on windows. but you still can install graphical programs to change settings of that software if you want to change the settings in gui
[10:55] <k1l> and again: this is not going anywhere. make a proposal of a better solution to the developer mailinglists.
[10:56] <zetheroo> And this is what bewilders people about Ubuntu (even long-time users such as myself) - on the one hand Ubuntu obviously is trying to lure the most nooby computer user, but on the other hand it's "you have to install something to turn on something which is built-in" - just not what you would expect from a OS trying to attract the broadest base of user - which looking at its website it's obviously doing ...
[10:56] <k1l> zetheroo: and "built in" doesnt mean "has a gui with clickable buttons and nice switches"
[10:56] <zetheroo> yes, in the Linux world that's true
[10:57] <k1l> zetheroo: no. in common sense, that is true
[10:57] <zetheroo> but coming from OUTSIDE that world it's expected
[10:57] <zetheroo> well then all these developers are wrong too ... LOL
[10:57] <k1l> again: just because you _want_ it to be that way doesnt mean everybody thinks that way is the best solution.
[10:57] <zetheroo> anyhow - we can disagree on it all - but I don't think me pointing these things out is worthy of being muted - maybe the off-topic part, but not the rest.
[10:58] <zetheroo> I have been bringing Windows users to Linux (mostly Ubuntu) for 10 years ... I know what the experience is like.
[10:58] <k1l> zetheroo: but again: this is the very wrong place for this dicsussion. again you are just proving that you are not capable of changing your way of discussing and follow simple rules.
[10:59] <zetheroo> you said "i tried to talk to you about the reason why i dont want to unmute you immediately but everytime you tried to escape and blame others. so i am not going to remove the mute before that deadline. maybe other ops see it differently and will talk to you then." ... and I am just replying to that
[10:59] <zetheroo> or is this not the place to speak but only be spoken to!?
[11:00] <k1l> zetheroo: please read the backlog. it was 0,00% about the point that i gave why i dont want to unmute you again.
[11:00] <zetheroo> your reason is "but everytime you tried to escape and blame others"
[11:00] <zetheroo> or?
[11:01] <k1l> it was just your "but my opinion is the only thruth so all the muting was not justified since i know how a linux os should be setup."
[11:01] <k1l> i gave you the reason yesterday what was my reason to mute you to make sure the #ubuntu channel could be used for ubuntu support again.
[11:02] <zetheroo> don't know what you mean by "escape" ... as for "blame others" - well yes, almost all involved jumped down my throat for what they thought was me calling Ubuntu security into question (which again is not a crime... or!?)
[11:02] <zetheroo> I never said my opinion is the only truth.
[11:03] <k1l> people clearly pointed out what "build in" means. but you kept repeating what your opinion is, no matter what facts people gave you.
[11:03] <zetheroo> I said that being mobbed and then shut up by a crowd who don't care to understand how new users approach the Ubuntu OS was wrong IMHO
[11:03] <k1l> than you come in here to talk about the mute (which is the right procedure) but then only point out that "the #ubuntu people are too touchy"
[11:03] <zetheroo> yes, it's well and all for Linux users to explain what it means TO THEM ... them being avid Linux users ...
 I said that being mobbed and then shut up by a crowd _who don't care to understand how new users approach the Ubuntu OS_ was wrong IMHO
[11:04] <zetheroo> but that says nothing about my point - which was how NON-LINUX USERS appraoch it an what things like this mean to them.
[11:05] <k1l> the marked part is what makes me feel not to unmute you again. you imply #ubuntu volunteers dont care about other users and you imply that you have the only right ideas and know how to handle ubuntu
[11:06] <zetheroo> well they didn't show much interest in understanding the experience of the new user
[11:06] <zetheroo> all they did was say "sudo apt-get xyz" etc ...
[11:06] <k1l> zetheroo: waht about they have 10000 of experiences with new users?
[11:06] <zetheroo> for new users that like useless!
[11:06] <k1l> zetheroo: ok, i am out of this.
[11:07] <bazhang> zetheroo, this is more a mailing list debate
[11:07] <zetheroo> they obviously don't ... or maybe they do and turn them off very quick by demanding too much from them ... dunno
[11:07] <zetheroo> ok, anyhow
[11:08] <zetheroo> am I allowed to bring up this topic in the #ubuntu-offtopic channel!?
[11:08] <zetheroo> or am I going to be muted there too?
[11:08] <bazhang> zetheroo, depends on how you phrase it I suppose
[11:08] <k1l> zetheroo: this is not your first time beeing muted, kicked or banned due to your way of "discussing". be sure to think about how your discussing-style is recognized by others
[11:08] <zetheroo> ok
[11:09] <zetheroo> k1l: yes, sorry I ask pointed questions sometimes....
[11:09] <bazhang> zetheroo, but the things you are debating are really mailing list material
[11:09] <zetheroo> I am past the point of asking "how do I print from Ubuntu" :D
[11:09] <zetheroo> bazhang: hmm ok
[11:09] <bazhang> 'how do I debate from ubuntu'
[11:09] <bazhang> !lists
[11:10] <k1l> zetheroo: #ubuntu is the technical support channel run by the community. dont spoil that channel with your discussions. use the mailinglists if you want to change defaults in ubuntu.
[11:11] <zetheroo> k1l: ok will do
[11:11] <zetheroo> is ubuntu-devel a good list to use for this?
[11:11] <bazhang> the list?
[11:11] <zetheroo> yes
[11:11] <k1l> ubuntu-devel-discuss for a start.
[11:12] <zetheroo> ok
[11:12] <bazhang> try it and see
[11:13] <zetheroo> ok - thanks ... ;)
[11:13] <bazhang> np
[17:01] <k1l_> ah, yesterday i was wondering why there are no paid apps on 15.04 in the software-center because a user in #u asked why that is. now i see all the drama about the software center past 14.04
[17:01] <k1l_> tl;dr: there will be no .deb based paid apps in the software-center past 14.04
[17:17] <k1l_> michael_ and ultragamingcard was the same ip
[17:17] <Pici> didn't realize
[17:17] <Pici> anyway, they're goner
[17:18] <Pici> -r
[17:26] <k1l_> yeah i am sometimes surprised by myself that is can recognize ISPs/hosts from people just joined but cant recognize my physics formulas :X