[05:19] <Kilos> o/
[17:00] <dholbach> hello hello
[17:00] <czajkowski> aloha
[17:00] <pleia2> o/
[17:00] <czajkowski> greetings!
[17:01] <dholbach> #startmeeting CC meeting
[17:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug 20 17:01:00 2015 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[17:01] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[17:01] <czajkowski> really should drink less tea!
[17:01] <dholbach> #chair czajkowski pleia2
[17:01] <meetingology> Current chairs: czajkowski dholbach pleia2
[17:01] <dholbach> czajkowski, is that possible?
[17:02] <hannie> hi all
[17:02] <dholbach> according to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda we're meeting up with the Doc team and QA team today
[17:02] <dholbach> do we folks from the doc team here? :)
[17:02] <pleia2> looks like we have a few folks from the doc team here already :)
[17:02] <dsmythies> Yes.
[17:02] <pleia2> o/ GunnarHj and hannie
[17:02] <GunnarHj> o/
[17:02] <dholbach> fantastic
[17:02] <dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Doc team!
[17:02] <dholbach> how are you all doing?
[17:02] <pleia2> dsmythies: hi to you too!
[17:03] <tedmcox> hello!
[17:03] <dsmythies> Fine.  Things are a little slower in the Summer (at least it is summer where I live).
[17:03] <dholbach> how did things go for docs in ubuntu in the last months?
[17:03] <GunnarHj> Same here. :)
[17:04]  * pleia2 switch to docs hat
[17:04] <GunnarHj> dholbach: Actually not much has happended since last time we met.
[17:04] <pleia2> we haven't been able to test it with a new contributor, but Canonical IS finally worked on our bug that caused folks not to be able to edit pages on the help.ubuntu.com/community wiki if they don't have a launchpad account
[17:05] <dsmythies> There has been some ongoing work on the serverguide. Bug fixes.
[17:05] <pleia2> hoping that will make the crazy process at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Registration obsolete
[17:05] <GunnarHj> pleia2: Excellent, that's a good change.
[17:05] <dsmythies> pleia2: It will great to have that finally fixed.
[17:05] <GunnarHj> As regards the desktop, Unity 7 is pretty stable, and the docs work for Unity 8 cannot be started yet.
[17:05] <bregma> unfortunately
[17:06] <dholbach> are there other blockers apart from the help.u.c issue?
[17:06] <GunnarHj> No big blockers, I think
[17:06] <hannie> I see that the string freeze for 15.10 is on September 17th
[17:07] <GunnarHj> One positive news is that tedmcox and a few other will attend the Open Help conference in a few weeks.
[17:07] <pleia2> great
[17:08] <tedmcox> so far we have three or four people coming to the openhelp sprints
[17:08] <dholbach> how do the openhelp sprints work?
[17:08] <czajkowski> that's great
[17:09] <czajkowski> tedmcox: and do people know they can request for help for funding in order to attend, in case there are others out there who may want to attend but can't http://community.ubuntu.com/help-information/funding/
[17:09] <dholbach> is it people coming together and working on help/docs? or how does it work?
[17:09] <tedmcox> from what i understand, it's a pretty informal meeting where we sit down around a table for several hours and work on whatever the doc team needs
[17:09] <dholbach> nice
[17:09] <tedmcox> other people from the conference might join in, too
[17:10] <dholbach> did you try to do something like that in a virtual sprint already?
[17:10] <pleia2> czajkowski: yes, I reminded them about it on list already, ahoneybun is applying
[17:10] <pleia2> last I knew he hadn't heard back yet
[17:10]  * pleia2 fingers crossed
[17:10] <dholbach> in the canonical community team we set up a docs hour each week where we look at bugs in {community,developer}.u.c and other places we're responsible for and try to fix them together
[17:11] <tedmcox> i've never tried a vitual sprint
[17:11] <pleia2> I think time zones make that a bit tricky for us
[17:11] <dholbach> right
[17:11] <dholbach> maybe two hours in different timezones on a given day
[17:11] <dholbach> I find that it helps being and working together and being able to ask others or collaborate on something
[17:11] <dholbach> and it's a fixed date on the calendar which also helps :-)
[17:12] <GunnarHj> Sounds like a possibility to increase motivation.
[17:12] <dholbach> yeah, it could also attract newcomers if you share the date via blog/mail
[17:12] <GunnarHj> indeed
[17:13] <dholbach> anyway... that was just an idea :)
[17:13] <dholbach> how is the general feedback when it comes to our docs - you said that in a few cases you applied some bug fixes... are the docs generally "good enough" or lacking or...?
[17:14] <dsmythies> As mentioned in our last meeting, for the serverguide we lack subject matter expert input. The serverguide struglles to be current.
[17:14] <GunnarHj> "Good enough" or not depends on where you put the rib. ;)
[17:15] <hannie> Is there any feedback from users of Ubuntu Docs Desktop?
[17:15] <GunnarHj> The desktop docs is far less technical compared to the server guide. Very few bugs nowadays. Personally I think it's "good enough".
[17:16] <dholbach> dsmythies, are you in touch with the server and cloud teams at canonical - do you know if they have any more training docs or anything which could be "merged"?
[17:16] <pleia2> hannie: only here and there via bug reports, but even then it's not much
[17:16] <pleia2> most of the bug reports that come in are for serverguide and the help wiki
[17:17] <GunnarHj> pleia2: And those bugs about the help wiki are usually rejected...
[17:17] <czajkowski> I
[17:17] <dsmythies> peter matulis usually handles server and cloud team interactions. I wouldn't know who to conntact.
[17:17] <pleia2> GunnarHj: yeah, hoping those will reduce anyway now that newcomers *should* be able to edit it again
[17:17] <czajkowski> I'm wondering if there is a way to get the server and cloud team on board even virtually to mini sprint and review docs
[17:17] <dsmythies> note that cononical now has it own clould stuff on help.ubuntu.com
[17:17] <dholbach> ok... I'm sure Peter knows who to ping... if you should need any more help finding people, let me know
[17:18] <GunnarHj> pleia2: Indeed. Looking forward to it. :)
[17:20] <hannie> Since there is no big difference between 15.04 and 15.10 I think there is not a great deal of work to be done for this version. Am I right?
[17:21] <dholbach> If I remember correctly the last time we spoke, you said that the thing you needed most were more hands on deck. If that's still the case, I guess we could work on trying to invite new folks together. Maybe do a Q&A session together and get the team more publicity.
[17:21] <GunnarHj> hannie: Agreed. There is still always room for improvements...
[17:21] <hannie> GunnarHj, true
[17:21] <dsmythies> We are starting to get heads up type bug reports or e-mails about 16.04 specific serverguide chnages. A sprint idea would be to close as many bugs as possible before we split out the serverguide into a 14.04 specific version and the truck version.
[17:22] <dsmythies> note the serverguide only published LTS versions.
[17:22] <dsmythies> truck should be trunck
[17:22] <tedmcox> that's a good idea
[17:23] <dsmythies> tes I'll follow up on the e-mail list.
[17:23] <dsmythies> ted, I mean.
[17:23] <GunnarHj> dholbach: Not sure what "deck" means, but indeed we need more contributors who are ready to do the "dirty work". Will be extra important when the Unity 8 docs has been launched.
[17:24] <dholbach> GunnarHj, which tasks for example would fall into the "dirty work" category?
[17:24] <hannie> When will Unity 8 be shipped with Ubuntu?
[17:24] <GunnarHj> dholbach: Writing and editing docs. ;)
[17:25] <bregma> hannie, not by default in 16.04
[17:25] <dholbach> ok
[17:25] <dsmythies> "deck" mean the deck of a ship. "all hands on deck" is a saying, meaning everybody.
[17:25] <hannie> bregma, will it be an option in 16.04?
[17:26] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Thanks. :)
[17:26] <ahoneybun> pleia2: I've not heard back yet
[17:26] <ahoneybun> o/
[17:26] <dholbach> I'll take an action to start a brainstorming discussion for inviting more folks to contribute.
[17:26] <GunnarHj> dholbach: Thanks, that's much appreciated.
[17:26] <bregma> hannie, yes, but the form it will take makes writing docs for it now very challenging
[17:26] <dholbach> Is there anything else I could help with, or the CC maybe?
[17:27] <dsmythies> I don't have anything specific for C.C.
[17:28] <GunnarHj> Me neither.
[17:28] <dholbach> ok... please let me know if you can think of anything
[17:28] <dholbach> I'm done with questions now and I'm sorry, but I'll have to run now. Have a great rest of your day - and thanks pleia2 and czajkowski for taking over!
[17:28] <dsmythies> we will likely have better feedback/input after the 16.04 cycle. LTS cycles tend to be much busier.
[17:29] <hannie> dholbach, thanks
[17:29] <pleia2> thanks for coming docs friends :)
[17:29] <dsmythies> yes, thanks.
[17:29] <GunnarHj> Thanks all!
[17:29] <hannie> see you
[17:29] <pleia2> #topic Catching up with the QA team
[17:29] <pleia2> balloons: about?
[17:29] <czajkowski> thanks docs team
[17:30] <balloons> pleia2, indeed. Is today the day?
[17:30] <pleia2> balloons: it is! how are things in QA land?
[17:30] <czajkowski> it is :D
[17:30] <balloons> bah, I need a reminder the day before :-) I see the hour blocked out in my calendar
[17:30] <balloons> regardless, things are coming along in QA land
[17:31] <balloons> there's a few community initiatives we're trying to land this cycle. The first is having the community host and run automated image testing. The second is getting the community directly invovled with OTA testing
[17:32] <balloons> I'm happy that there's some new oppurtunties for people to get invovled, and I think we'll see some growth in those areas. aka, snappy and phones are cool
[17:32] <pleia2> I mentioned the community host and run automated image testing initiative during my talk at ubuconla :) how is attracting contributors going?
[17:33] <balloons> there's been many people interested in helping host and run things; and all fresh faces
[17:34] <balloons> For contributors now, the larger challenge seems to be finding ways to ensure the work they do is useful
[17:34]  * pleia2 nods
[17:34] <balloons> It's mostly about coordinating with QA, which is what is happening for the OTA testing. I'm hopeful this will open the door to more oppurturnities
[17:35] <pleia2> OTA is phone testing?
[17:35] <balloons> yea
[17:36] <pleia2> yeah, we've noticed that it's certainly easier to grow communities in areas where there's shiny new things to work on, as you say snappy and phones :)
[17:36] <balloons> So struggles are keeping up with the older and more legacy tasks. The images still get tested, but the contributors have dropped off sharply since trusty. We place less emphasis on them as well. The automated image testing effort I hope will help flavors get over that hump
[17:36] <pleia2> yeah, makes sense
[17:37] <balloons> the other struggle has always been coordinating people willing to run new and shiny things to give feedback about it
[17:37] <pleia2> I've seen that some in Xubuntu as well, we have to stress in every call for testing that tests don't "count" unless they actually report the results
[17:37] <pleia2> follow through can be tough sometimes
[17:38] <balloons> right. I'm hopeful that we can set better processes in place as we start in on the 'new' things
[17:38] <pleia2> cool
[17:39] <pleia2> so are there any challenges/blockers now, or anything the CC could help with?
[17:39] <balloons> the tracker as it is, will continue to be with us and carry it's problems with us it seems :-)
[17:40] <pleia2> is there anything that can be done to fix the outstanding bugs?
[17:40] <pleia2> I know I still struggle with them
[17:40] <balloons> Umm, hmm
[17:41] <balloons> For the tracker specifically, it's hard to think about if we should move tools, invest in fixing what we have, etc. The community, primarily dkessel, has been more or less fixing things for the last few years
[17:41] <balloons> but it's limited
[17:42] <czajkowski> balloons: what do you mean by the tracker is with you and carry with it, its problems?
[17:42] <pleia2> yeah, mostly I'm talking about the ones you've discussed with knome and the xubuntu team, we collected the major pain point bugs but things like "only show bugs related to this iso and get rid of bug image icons" have gone nowhere and continue to be troublesome
[17:42] <balloons> Long-term, I'd like to integrate more with what QA itself is using / doing
[17:42] <balloons> czajkowski, the tracker is a tool that was custom built for image testing, but has many rough edges from a user's point of view
[17:43] <balloons> it does many things, but none of them well :-)
[17:43]  * pleia2 nods
[17:43] <balloons> the bugs we're talking about would lower the barrier towards using it and making it more pleasant to use
[17:43] <balloons> no one really enjoys using it, thus it's an uphill battle to ask someone to do so
[17:44] <balloons> getting information out of it after folks have used it is also a challenge, heh
[17:44] <pleia2> yeah, reporting results was the hardest part of teaching folks at the QA jam back in february
[17:44] <czajkowski> nods
[17:45] <czajkowski> balloons: and is there a plan internally to make this easier
[17:46] <balloons> So, as far as how the CC might help. Just encourage folks to be active as always :-) It would be helpful to make sure the new folks we are getting into ubuntu via IoT and phones (aka those who don't run ubuntu on a desktop / laptop) are well integrated
[17:46] <pleia2> given the state of the tracker, I continue to find it hard to encourage people when it's so lousy
[17:46] <balloons> thinking about contact points and how we interact, etc
[17:47] <pleia2> I keep helping them use it, but it's a huge time sink for me when I'd really just rather see it fixed, I can't keep making this time
[17:47] <balloons> czajkowski, there is no plan afaik. The process as it stands is pretty much status quo.
[17:47] <czajkowski> pleia2: +1
[17:47] <balloons> I'd like to see certain changes made, but they would be more far-reaching than simply changing a tool. It's also something probably better pursued a couple cycles ago. But no time like the present I guess
[17:48] <czajkowski> balloons: so perhaps one way to do this
[17:48] <balloons> if you know of a way to help make the process better, or want to try, that would be really useful
[17:48] <czajkowski> in order to really get people involved is to actually take a look at the bugs
[17:48] <czajkowski> and see what we can do to get them fixed
[17:48] <pleia2> it's just the same UI changes the Xubuntu team has been asking for for over a year
[17:48] <czajkowski> pleia2: has said they are UI changes which given the amount of folks in the community surely we can get this done ?
[17:49] <balloons> yes, knome and the rest of the community really put together a nice design
[17:49] <pleia2> those few improvements would help incredibly, but no movement there
[17:49] <pleia2> balloons: nods
[17:49] <pleia2> a lot of that came from feedback I got at in person QA jams
[17:49] <balloons> no one wants to touch drupal :p
[17:49] <pleia2> if the community developed fixes, could we get Canonical to commit to actually implementing them in a timely manner?
[17:49] <czajkowski> so one thing I think we could do is see if the web team internal could have a look at the bugs
[17:50] <balloons> pleia2, since you are more closely invovled with a flavor, to what extent is this harming flavors?
[17:50] <czajkowski> and see what could be done even by priortising them
[17:50] <czajkowski> not one to add work to others plates
[17:50] <czajkowski> but surely it cant hurt to ask
[17:50] <czajkowski> no ?
[17:50] <balloons> pleia2, yes I can release any fixes as well as test and review them
[17:50] <pleia2> balloons: a lot, we're struggling to get people to report results, and ones who do need to be hand-held through the process, massive time waste for us
[17:50] <balloons> that process is really quick
[17:50] <czajkowski> balloons: you say this :) will hold you to it!
[17:50] <pleia2> ok, I'll see about getting contributors to submit fixes
[17:50] <balloons> czajkowski, :-) I did work when Daniel was doing things to make this easy
[17:51] <balloons> and the IS deployments are 5 mins tops
[17:51] <pleia2> there's just a lot of reluctance because I know folks who have submitted fixes for planet.u.c that don't land, kills enthuisasm and they won't contribute again
[17:51] <balloons> pleia2, ack. Perhaps approaching the issue as something that affects all flavors is the way to go
[17:51] <pleia2> balloons: makes sense
[17:52] <czajkowski> nods
[17:52] <balloons> I would support that. It would be useful to have the community exert more control over the whole process of releasing
[17:52] <pleia2> ok, I'll see what I can do :)
[17:52] <balloons> pleia2, :-( Yes, we actually were talking about that
[17:52] <balloons> unreviewed patches not landing
[17:53] <balloons> do we have some time setup for a sync with the community team?
[17:53] <balloons> I know we talked about that in the past.. or maybe I'm mistaken
[17:53] <pleia2> I don't think so
[17:54] <pleia2> er,
[17:54] <pleia2> "we" as in flavors QA?
[17:54] <balloons> err, right. I meant CC and community team
[17:54] <pleia2> oh, gotcha
[17:54] <pleia2> I don't think we ever set anything up, but we should
[17:55] <balloons> re: tracker, there's a thread happening right now. So the discussion is already on the table
[17:55] <pleia2> balloons: can you send an email to the CC with the proposal, including Canonical community team folks who you think should attend?
[17:55]  * pleia2 nods
[17:55] <balloons> pleia2, yes I think we should formally meet. It's sort of never been an issue because of the inclusion of some of the team on the CC
[17:55] <balloons> but that may or may not always be the case, and doesn't include us all anyway, so :-)
[17:55] <pleia2> the CC will change in a couple months, so it's probably worth getting in the habit of soon
[17:55]  * pleia2 nods
[17:56] <czajkowski> balloons: thanks
[17:56] <pleia2> alright, coming to the end of our hour, anything else?
[17:56] <balloons> ok, so I'll send something to the list asking for a time to meet with the Canonical community tem
[17:56] <pleia2> thanks :)
[17:56] <pleia2> thanks for the chat, balloons!
[17:57] <balloons> thanks for the discussion
[17:57] <pleia2> #topic Any other business
[17:57] <pleia2> IRC Council 17:00UTC 3rd September / Canonical Community Team 17:30UTC 3rd September
[17:57] <pleia2> ^^ next catch up
[17:57] <pleia2> oh hey, canonical community team :)
[17:58] <pleia2> should make sure we remember to send out reminder to IRC Council too, haven't heard much from them lately (I assume that's a good thing)
[17:59] <pleia2> ok, thanks everyone
[17:59] <pleia2> #endmeeting
[17:59] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug 20 17:59:12 2015 UTC.
[17:59] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-08-20-17.01.moin.txt
[18:07] <balloons> pleia2, did you already schedule it? ;p\
[18:21] <dkessel> uh, a ping