holsteinand, if its literally, just me and zequence voting you in, OvenWerks, and, we determine when the next vote is, thats fine with me00:49
holsteini think aiming for a normal type of community, like the others, is not a bad goal00:50
OvenWerksholstein: Honestly, I think there are more people around than just us three :)03:50
zequenceSure, there are. But, there aren't that many possible candidates.07:25
zequenceIf anyone can think of someone, who could/should/would be interested, now is the time to talk to that someone, and that someone will have time to prepare.07:26
zequenceActually, it may be good to have a vote a few months before I pass it on, so that there's time for that someone to learn what is needed.07:27
zequenceLike, three months before. January, in other words. I'll mention it on the mail list.07:27
* DalekSec votes for himself, just to be a horrible person.07:56
astraljavaAs if you'd be the first candidate ever to do that. :D07:57
zequencecub, we can still add it after feature freeze, though we shouldn't. But, perhaps it can wait until the next LTS?09:24
cubzequence, Plume Creator, waiting until the LTS we might also be able to include the re-coded 2.0 version. 10:12
zequencecub: Yeah, that's what I thought too.10:17
zequenceAlso, we have more time to figure out -writing, or whatever.10:18
cubAs for Project Lead candidates, I was having high hopes when I started trying to contribute. However as you all know, I haven't had much time to actually do so. It would be sad to see the distro fading away entirely due to noone having the time to run it. Then again, it will do just that without people dedicating their free time volunteering. 10:30
astraljavaI concur, cub, and am pondering heavily on whether to volunteer as a "lay-over" leader if no one else shows up. For the time being, I don't really have any clear visions on where to take the flavor to, but at least to keep the wheels rolling would be something. This has, after all, a very soft spot in my heart after all these years. :)10:38
cubI had and have ideas, but without being able to commit to the time involved it won't do anyone any good10:45
zequenceIf we have at least one developer who can do packaging, and is committed for 2 years, then the lead does not need to be a champion at that.10:47
zequenceCurrently, I'm the only one with upload rights. And, I will be available in the future for doing that, even though I think developers here should strive to get upload rights themselves.10:47
zequenceOvenWerks is capable of packagin, so if he would commit to two years, no matter being lead or not, then the lead could focus more on other things.10:48
zequenceI think astraljava has some idea on how to do that too.10:48
zequenceBut, again, neither has upload rights, so they always need to ask someone else to do the uploads.10:49
zequenceNone of us is a master at it though. And, that is a bit of a problem actually. There is always a danger that someone does something weird, or against packaging policy (Debian Policy)10:50
cubin an ideal set up the project lead could "just" lead, but with a small team it proves to be necessary to get your hands dirty so to speak. Also because it's easier when you know how to make things happen within Ubuntu and upstream10:50
zequenceI'm thinking, whoever is elected will have the chance to learn all about the structure in the three months before taking over. I would put some effort into that. So, that's actually not a big, big problem.10:52
zequenceSo, the candidate could be someone from outside, someone who knows about maintaining a Linux distro, but not Ubuntu Studio, or any other Ubuntu flavor specifically.10:53
zequenceOr, at least has some experience in software development.10:53
cubyes, but someone with the time to do that for the three months as well10:57
zequenceOf course.11:01
zequenceI'm thinking of people like the AVLinux guy, or falktx, or whoever, if there is any kind of interest.11:02
zequenceThey are sufficiently active, but it is not certain that their mind sets are good for the project. But, that is what the voters will have to determine.11:03
cubyes, that's why I added a note about getting some thoughts from the future PL on where and how Ubuntu Studio is going. There's a reason some start their own distributions as they don't want a team around to meddle with things11:06
astraljavazequence: Yes, from the skillset POV, I am not worried. It's more about having enough time to think about where to drive the flavor, and how to do that.11:16
zequenceI'm new to this https://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/menu.html/ch3.html12:38
zequencescribus doesn't have a desktop file, but it does have a menu file, which goes in /usr/share/menu/&12:38
zequencescribus doesn't have a desktop file, but it does have a menu file, which goes in /usr/share/menu/12:38
zequencedoesn't show up in our menu though12:39
OvenWerksHas scribus dropped the desktop file since 14.04 then? It had a desktop file then.12:41
zequenceI guess so12:43
zequenceI'm sure the command "update-menus" rings a bell. You see it sometimes during package installation.12:44
zequenceThough, I can't find what it belongs to, and how to run it.12:44
astraljavaI seem to recall some similar issues back in the day, can look into it tomorrow to ring some bells.12:45
zequenceThere's a package called menu12:46
zequenceI'm assuming you still need a desktop file.12:54
zequenceWell, other packages that have menu files also has a desktop file, so I'm going to assume scribus is missing one. Reporting a bug13:09
zequenceIf someone would like to double check, on wily...13:19
zequencebug 148703113:19
ubottubug 1487031 in scribus (Ubuntu) "desktop file missing" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/148703113:19
zequenceOvenWerks: If you would like to pursue upload rights, I will back you, btw. Would be about time you became an Ubuntu member as well.13:22
holsteinOvenWerks: i agree.. i think there are more folks that would be interested in attending a meeting15:46
holsteini say, we literally just copy what the other teams do.. 15:46
holsteinespecially, xubuntu15:46
zequencescribus is fixed in Debian, but there's a problem with getting the fix downstream. I'm sure it will be fixed one way or another soonish.16:05
zequenceholstein: There is a discussion going on the mail list about this, so if you want to add your thoughts about it, please do16:07
holsteinzequence: sure.. and i waill16:08
holsteinzequence: unless, you are saying, i *shouldnt* say something here, i'll do both16:08
holsteini mean, thats the trick.. we will need to have the meetings here, on the IRC16:08
holsteinthe vote.. etc..16:08
zequenceWhy is IRC better than the mail list?16:24
zequenceFor one thing, it is pretty hard to get everyone to attend16:25
zequenceWe already have this channel, where we can discuss things16:25
zequenceWhat's going to happen if we have a meeting, that won't happen on the mail list?16:25
zequenceholstein: mean, what is it that you feel will happen during a meeting that can't happen on the mail list?16:26
cuba more rapid discussion which might be easier to follow, I think. But then there is the issue with finding a good time for it with time zones, work times etc16:37
cubbut Xubuntu also do mail list voting and decisions16:38
zequenceI just think that if someone has any ideas, or objections to someone elses ideas, it is easy enough to write about it on the mail list16:39
zequenceUsually, I find, not many have opinions anyway, so the meeting becomes more of a coffee and donuts gathering.16:39
zequenceProbably good for team bonding, or something, and I'm probably not very sensitive to that.16:40
cubyeah, but when a couple of others then have a few questions and/or comments to different parts of that email it quickly gets complicated16:40
zequenceIt's important to record stuff on the wiki, which is what I'm doing with the discussions we have now16:40
cubbut back to the question on if there would be a vote, who would vote?16:41
zequenceIf you want, you can just hang back until there's a proposal, and then read the wiki to see if you like it or not16:41
cubthe team is loosely gathered unless you would just count the Core team16:41
zequenceI think anyone who is involved in one of the moderated or restricted teams should be allowed to vote16:42
zequenceAnd, I as I mentioned in the mail list, I can make sure everyone of those are members of -contributor16:42
zequenceThat way, we can just say, members of -contributor are allowed to vote16:42
cubI think that is a good idea.16:44
cubso what is the best way to put the 15.10 iso to an usb nowadays? My experience with dd or disc creator is random at best16:49
zequencedd always works for me16:49
zequenceI haven't been using anything else for a good while16:49
cubabout half the times it won't boot for me16:49
zequenceI wouldn't blame dd16:50
zequenceDon't think anything is as straight forward16:50
zequenceAnd, don't think anything else does some sort of error checking16:50
holsteinzequence: irc is in realtime.. and, its easy.. there is a barrier for *all* things16:52
holsteini mean, we could meet, and argue doing meetings via something like skype, or google hangouts.. but, the upstream ubuntu community provides a room for meetings in irc, that logs the meetings, etc16:53
holsteinits just easy for us to take advantage of that16:53
holsteinits easier than crowd-sourcing all the aspects, and, having one person dictate the terms.. we literally vote on everything.. copy paste the xubuntu setup to a wiki page agenda.. everything is a bullet point16:54
holsteinwe show up, and vote.. in the ubuntu community team meeting channel.. everyone gets say-so.. and can add points to the agenda.. and, the agenda is up, and anyone can add a point to it16:55
cubanyone installed 1510 to actual harddrive yet? I only have one laptop and is a bit nervous as to break the boot or grub16:55
holsteinany community member can vote.. we could say, "in order to vote, please sign the COC,.. etc16:55
zequencecub: I have16:55
cubgreat, I'll set it up then16:56
cubSadly, I only find myself with some time today since my daughter is home with a fever. She's quite happy to hang around in the sofa with a book or ipad then16:57
holsteinwhat happens here, in realtime, that doenst happen on the list is, realtime collaboration.. and voting.. "next point of order, team lead term.. option 1, 2 years, option 2, 6 months.. !vote"16:59
holsteinthats what we cant do ^.. on the email, it just bounces around, and someone dictates a decision16:59
holsteinzequence: i feel, you are just saying, you dont want to have a meeting like the other communities do.. *all* of the other communities, and teams.. why?17:01
holsteinzequence: why are you opposed to having a normal meeting time? and terms that all community members vote on? 17:01
holsteinit would be like that, similarly, in the future.. "next point - publication menu section discussion".. then, voting on things, and getting things done17:02
holsteinthe channel that is provided for us to use logging the decisions, and, the tasks.. etc17:02
cubJono Bacon favour Google Hangout or Freenode for meetings, but sure that's only one suggestion17:02
cubholstein, one of the difficulties with an online meeting is the time schedule to allow for as many as possible to participate17:03
holsteincub: sure.. and *all* other teams deal with that17:03
cubother than that, I also prefer "live" meetings for some thigns17:03
holsteinwhat do you do? vote on the meeting times.. absentee voting?17:03
holsteinread the official logs17:03
holstein*nothing* cant be addressed..17:03
cubI think Xubuntu have a log for absentee voting17:03
holsteinyup ^17:03
holsteinwe just literallly copy paste what xubuntu has, and have a meeting to vote on all of those as bullet points17:04
cubthough that also means you vote in advance and can't take into account stuff that might come up in the discussion17:04
holsteinallowing folks to add whatever they want to it.. or, options..17:04
zequenceholstein: While you say all this, I am preparing a wiki page of what is being discussed on the mail list. 17:05
holsteintheres no perfect solution.. but, if we have a meeting, and you show up, you vote, and get say-so..17:05
cubHow about you for nomination holstein ? You've been around for a long time17:05
zequenceholstein: No one is dictating anything.17:05
holsteinzequence: lol17:05
holsteinzequence: the team lead position its self has been dictated for literally 6 years, or, as long as ive been here17:05
holsteinzequence: we have no community meetings.. or, community outlet for input.. im not stating anything but facts17:06
cubwell there isn't much of a community17:06
zequencethat's total bullshit17:06
holsteinfolks have nothing to join, here.. its just not the same as the other communities.. and, i for one, would just like to try implementing17:06
holsteinzequence: its not..17:06
holsteinzequence: it was dicated to me.. and the rest of the community.. and, thats fine17:07
holsteinim not asking for changes retroactively.. or oppologies.. just, that we try and emulate the other teams, going forward17:07
holsteintry having meetings.., letting folks vote, and accept tasks..17:07
zequenceholstein: Guess how many active contributors we had last autumn, actually doing something?17:08
holsteinzequence: sure, and why?17:08
zequenceholstein: Just to make a point17:08
zequenceGive me a number17:08
holsteinzequence: what team are they joining?.. you know?17:08
holsteini think we can argue chicken or egg there.. but, we can both agree, we have a small team17:08
holsteinim only proposing emulating the larger teams.. 17:08
holsteinthere is infrastructure in place to help us.. 17:09
zequenceFor this cycle, we have had a lot more interest, but how many have actually done anything else but discuss?17:09
holsteinzequence: what do they do?17:09
holsteinzequence: you cant show a bullet point, or a vote.. etc.. i mean, are we aruging to *not* emulate al the other teams?17:10
holsteinthe ones that are thriving? and growing?17:10
zequenceholstein: What you want is for you to be able to attend meetings and vote for stuff that 1 or 2 other people will have to do17:10
zequenceAre you seeing my point yet?17:10
holsteinzequence: i didnt say that17:10
holsteinthe attendees can accept tasks, or, someone can ask for help from upstream, or, on the mailing list.. etc17:11
holsteini mean, how is this a negative thing? having a team meeting?17:11
holsteini dont think it would hurt to try having simply monthly meetings.. all things can be voted on.. the meeting time, for example.. if someone wanted to move it17:12
holsteinits not up to 1 or 2 people to do everything, and shouldnt be.. and, thats something that the meetings would facilitate a conversation about17:13
zequenceI'll agree to that the day there are more than 2 active developers17:13
holsteinzequence: yes, but, again, thats *you* dictating17:13
zequenceWell, there are three now, tbh. But, still, a few more than now17:13
zequenceholstein: You are not a developer17:13
holsteinzequence: so17:14
zequenceholstein: You are just here chatting17:14
zequenceWhat is it that you want us to do?17:14
holsteinim a community member.. offering to assist with infrastructure, and community structure..17:14
cubwell holstein is pitching a good part in the support 17:14
holsteinzequence: i am only proposing we try and emulate a team that i would think we can both agree could make for attracting more members17:15
holsteinthe xubuntu team17:15
holsteinwe literally just copy paste, and vote on the points.. then, we get that as a frame work, but, we have plenty of time for each of the interested parties to review and edit.. and add voting points17:15
zequenceThe problem is not about how we communicate. There's more than enough communication going on here17:16
holsteinim not trying to be a developer.. nor, do i intend to be one.. but, that doesnt make my voice less important.. and *that* is why im proposing we are not growing a community17:16
zequenceThe problem is in getting people to do some actual work17:16
holsteinzequence: sure.. and, i can agree with that17:16
holsteinzequence: so, we have a meeting, where folks are clearly accepting tasks.. or, accepting the task of asking for help doing something17:16
holsteinjust a factual thing that we can point to "you said you would get testers together for the lowlatency kernel for the 16.04 cycle, how is that going?"17:17
holsteinand, we check in.. im propsing simply monthly to start..17:17
holsteinsince, i konw we are all busy..17:17
zequenceI'm just now calling out for Beta testers. And I will do that in all our channels, website, etc. Usually, it's me and someone from Xubuntu testing our ISOs17:18
zequenceDon't think a lack of meetings is causing that17:18
holsteinzequence: sure.. and i know, i appreciate that. but, what if we had a team? where, you can just ask someone else to do that? and put that as a bullet point? 17:18
holstein*anyone* can do that..17:19
holsteinyou dont need to be emailing.. and, you dont ask for help with it..17:19
holsteinyou dont have to be a developer to edit wikis and send emails.. etc.. thats something that i think one of the newer contributors would be excited about taking on17:19
zequenceIf you want to fix a hole in a tire, you must first have a tire.17:20
holsteinzequence: lol17:21
holsteinwe *have* a tire..17:21
holsteinanyways, i wont send anything to the list til we are in agreement.. as a courtesy17:22
holsteinzequence: i would not mind scheduling time to discuss with you, in particular, and hash this out..17:22
holsteinfolks are here, and they are ready for tasks.. they are not being given them..17:22
zequenceThat's simply not true17:23
holsteinwe happen to have had about 5 strong in this channel over the past few days.. and, thats really all it would take17:23
holsteinzequence: if its not, then, its not.. and no one will come.. and who cares? right?!17:23
holsteinzequence: what is the problem with trying to emulate the xubuntu team?17:23
zequenceI mean, people have already committeds to all sorts of tasks17:23
holsteinright,a nd in the meeting, we can say, "hey, hows that going? do you need help?"17:24
holsteinrather than, 6, 8 months later, kind of half remembering a conversation somewhere.. or whatever17:24
holsteinwe have upstream support.. we have lots of help with the xubuntu team, who, im sure would help someone with whatever we would need help with17:25
holsteinim not asking to take anything over. or, away from anyone.. im only asking for open-ness, and, regular meetings. and democratic voting.. and delegation.. etc17:27
holsteinif you want to keep things as they are, and just dictate the team lead to everyone, in the background, and, keep things going as they are, we can surely discuss that..17:28
zequenceI have never said anything else than that we should have a vote17:28
zequenceAnd, I never discuss anything behind any doors17:28
zequence..if it involves the whole team, that is.17:29
holstein*everything* needs to involve the whole team17:29
zequenceIt's all very, very open holstein 17:29
zequenceIt's like this: you want to do something, you do it, unless someone objects, and then we have a discussion.17:30
holsteinzequence: again, all i can say is, it hasnt been, and there are no meetings for me to attend to vote in.. me, or new members..17:30
zequenceholstein: Just read the damn mail list, and the wiki for information17:30
zequenceIt's all there17:30
holsteinim not making things up.. the team lead position has not been voted on, factually, for years.. 17:30
zequenceI know that, but that is some time ago. And, Scott was not in a position to make a vote happen when he left.17:31
zequenceI was barely able to take over. It was pretty difficult to get things done then17:31
holsteinits not scotts position to do so17:31
zequenceI didn't want to become lead, even17:31
holsteinif its an open community, then, its open.. and it wasnt17:31
zequenceBut, there was no other way17:31
holsteinim *glad* you are lead. and think you have done a great job.. im only talking about, the future.. and facts about the past17:32
holsteina vote would have been the other way..17:32
zequenceThere will be a vote, if candidates can be produced.17:32
holsteinwe dont even need "candidates".. even if its just OvenWerks ..which is fine.. we *still* vote17:32
holsteinwe still have say so, and welcome him, and define the terms.. etc..17:33
zequenceholstein: If you like, we can have meetings over the next cycle, which will be my last. You get to do all the work in preparing for them, but I will at least need to look over the structure and make sure it's in line with how we do things17:34
holsteinzequence: i actually wasnt going to offer to blanketly do "all the work for it", but, i was also going to offer to assist someone else in doing it..17:35
zequenceOh, then who?17:35
holsteinzequence: if i need to, i can.. and, i will make sure you and i are in agreement before i send anything to the list17:35
holsteinzequence: *you* are the one telling me work to do ;) not me telling you17:36
zequenceSo far, I think only you feel really strong about it, and maybe cub is leaning your way. So, there's the two of you17:36
zequenceBut, perhaps there are more who would be willing on the mail list17:37
holsteinzequence: to be clear, im not asking that you do any preperation work17:37
zequenceSome people come and go.17:37
holsteini wont send anything surprising that we dont dicuss to the list.. but, think this over, and you can let me know, before i formulate the mail17:38
zequenceYou can write whatever you like on the mail list. It's not up to me, you know17:39
holsteinthat, we would basically have a meeting, in the official meeting channel.. start a wiki agenda for it, copy past the xubuntu team info, and allow folks to add what they want to it, for voting bullet points..17:39
cubI support having meetings. But I also understand the point that if only 1 or 2 show up it's not worth the administration around it17:40
holsteinzequence: yes. but, im not interested in crowd-sourcing it there.. for discussion.. id like to have the date worked out, and the agenda up, and folks can edit as they want, prior to meeting, or, ask for the time to be moved, etc..17:40
cublike myself, I could organise meetings but then something comes up concerning work or family and I will have to bail out. That's even worse than not having meetings17:40
holsteinbut, even if its just 2 in the meeting, in the future, and that one person can ask for help with something, thats helpful..17:40
holsteinif the administration is too much, we discuss..17:41
holsteinthe channel does most of the work, for the post meeting.. AFAIK.. these days, that helps out a lot17:41
cubyes when you have learned the irc meeting bot the notes are done when the meeting's done17:42
holsteinwe used to have to do it manually :/17:42
cubbut someone need to learn (and remember how to) and then run it every time17:42
zequenceHere's the page for how to vote for a project lead https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ProjectLeadVote17:42
holsteinthat was some crazy overhead.. for a team that didnt do much..17:42
holsteinanyways, im back to work here.. its been a real pressure talking with you..17:43
holsteini mean, pleasure ;)17:43
zequenceI'm mergine the "core" and "developer" sections in the wiki later. Everything that a Ubuntu Studio developer needs to know will be in the "developer" section17:44
cubperhaps both, holstein 17:44
cubThe hard part is to attract more people to contribute. It's a quite narrow field since you need to be interested in open source and sort computers and then music/audio/graphics/video.17:47
cubIt's not like Xubuntu whose targets are everyone17:47
zequenceI think I will be ready with all the stuff that I felt lacked when I started out, just by the time I decide not to do it anymore17:47
zequenceThe wiki will be awesome when its finished17:47
zequencePeople just need to read it17:48
cubzequence, really? That is nice though17:48
zequenceYou should have seen the wiki when I started.17:48
zequenceThere was no structure whatsoever. Not for many years17:48
cubtime to put the kid to bed ...17:49
zequencecub: Sweet dreams to her17:49
zequenceCould be some folks are deterred from doing this, since they feel they don't have good enough experience of multimedia production17:50
zequence..but would otherwise be really good at all of the other stuff, like packaging, and bug fixing17:50
cubI think many think you need to be a savvy computer geek, excellent coder, know several programming languages, to be able to contribute. There's a hurdle to get over to reach people and make it clear to them that a team need many different skills18:49
cubIt took me a while to get over, even though it's there on the web page you still think "well I'm not a coder so I'm to no use"18:50
holsteincub: and, i think thats a conversation i would like to have, for sure19:26
holsteinlike, are we relevant as a distro? do we need to just make it a "plugin" for any other flavor? i know mate is doing that.. an ubuntu-mate audio editing version, for example19:27
holsteindo we need code contributors?19:27
holsteinwe are not even allowed to contribute much into the repos.. 19:28
holsteinand, thats something else that we could talk about.. going "unofficial" and maintaining a PPA.. basically something like what kxstudio is doing.. 19:28
holsteinthese are the kinds of things we could entertain before anyone starts working on 16.04.. i know cory had come in, and suggested that, which, i actually thought was worth entertaining. but, it was about 5 weeks before the release of one of the versions.. prolly 12.0419:29
cubI think being an official distro is an advantage, I'm always a bit skeptic about PPAs myself. But it all comes down to having enough people to spin it around19:31
zequenceholstein: I don't think you have a very good understanding of the whole development process, and that is one of the problems I have with a lot of your opinions19:32
zequenceIt's not true that we don't have access. Everyone in this world has access to all sources.19:33
cubthere's already the plan or idea of being WM agnostic19:33
zequenceI have upload rights to all Ubuntu Studio packages. Also to all Debian multimedia package sources19:33
holsteinzequence: sure, and why?19:33
holsteinyou are  not a MOTU?19:33
zequenceWhat do you mean why?19:34
holsteinis it just because, we dont have the team in place? or, is it just access to configs? etc19:34
zequenceNo, as I said, I have upload rights to all of the Ubuntu Studio packages19:34
holsteini mean, i dont want just *anyone* uploading into ubuntu.. there are checks in place, for a reason19:34
zequenceAt any time, I can upload a new version of any of our packages19:34
holsteinand, if we dont have access to build, and add packages, we dont really need developers19:34
holsteinwe certainly dont need a lot of them19:34
holsteini think, i deally, one of us would be a MOTU, or, even ideally, a paid developer, with our specific interests in mind19:35
cubwith developers we could do much more though19:35
holsteinhaving a paid developer is quite unlikely, since, even the KDE paid dev is not paid anymore.. and, AFAIK, that was the last of the flavors that had paid development19:35
holsteinbut, i dont think we are missing developers.. and, if we get contributors, some of them will likely either be developers, or, interested in development19:36
cubbut otherwise it's more or less just puzzling together what apps to include19:36
holsteinor, they are just musicians, and can ask *others* for assistance, with the specific needs.. like, a liason with debian, or whatever19:36
holsteinit doesnt require coding experience to talk about packages in debian that we get19:36
holsteinzequence: i dont have *any* idea about development, and dont want to19:37
holsteinzequence: im not interested in doing development, and thats not a requiment of being a contributor to the community here.. and i dont think we need to give that impression, or, that its really something we specifically lack19:37
holsteinsince, we are not really given the control of the development19:37
holsteinnow, as im saying, and generally asking, for discussion, we *could* break off, and do something else, where, we would have more control, and need for developers..19:38
holsteinzequence: please, no caps19:38
holsteinzequence: no caps, no cussing.. less attacking vibe towards me, please.. generally19:38
zequenceWe have full control of everything19:39
holsteinim not attacking you. im simply suggesting, that, we really dont have need for developers.. we cant develop an app, and just drop it, willy nilly, in the repos19:39
holsteinif we can, then, why are we not adding falks stuff? the stuff that is being requested that we have? and that folks leave ubuntustudio for kxstudio over?19:40
zequenceAs long as we comply with policies, we are able to do what we want and need to do19:40
cubwe could, ubuntustudio-controls is something like that, no?19:40
zequenceSure, but the best way is to do it in Debian, which has already been under way for many years19:41
zequenceDon't ask me why it hasn't happened yet19:41
holsteinsure. but, who do we ask? and if we have control, we dont have to19:41
holsteinwe just stick them in.. lots of folks want them19:41
cubthat's something I have been toying with for a while, why don't we do Debian Studio19:41
zequenceanyone can package falktx packages and put them in either UBuntu or Debian repos19:42
zequenceThere's nothing stopping them19:42
cubbut since Jessie is the first Debian that actually worked right away on my laptop I haven't considered it more until now19:42
holsteini think there is something stopping one of us from dropping them in the ubuntu repo19:42
zequenceholstein: There isn├Ąt19:42
holsteinbut, if there is not, then, i think we can simply ask falk to do it19:42
zequenceLike I said, you don't seem to know a whole lot about how packaging works19:42
holsteinok.. so, we do that at the meeting, then, i'll ask falk to assist packing, since, he already does it, and we put them in19:43
holsteinzequence: i dont want to konw, friend..19:43
zequencefalktx doesn't want to package his stuff for Debian19:43
zequencefalktx doesn't want anything to do with either Debian or Ubuntu developers and their policices19:43
zequenceThat's at least the impression I have got from him19:43
zequenceHe doesn't like rules19:43
cubIf Falk was interested wouldn't he be involved already? I've got the impression he wants to do his own thing19:43
holsteinwell, i'll actually ask him, if we actually have the rights to put them in19:44
zequenceholstein: Anyone can put anything in, as long as it complies with policies19:44
zequenceholstein: That's what free software is all about19:44
zequenceIf you don't have upload rights, you need a sponsor. That's all19:45
holsteinsure.. a motu sponsor, correct? the person that *actually* puts the stuff in..19:45
holsteini get that.. and, thats fine.. but, all i want to do is constructively talk about getting some of the things that i think we can all agree, folks move away from ubuntustudio to get19:46
zequenceBut, any package that has a free license should go into Debian. From there it will automatically be imported into Ubuntu19:46
zequenceFolks have strange ideas, and often thanks to people with strange opinions19:47
holsteinor, we can just not do ubuntustudio,a nd assist falk, or make our own PPA's.. if we cant do pro audio within the confines of the policies, which, im not saying we cant, just that, if thats true, we can just stop trying19:47
zequenceIronically, a lot of people hostile to Ubuntu are people with little or no experience with it19:47
zequenceholstein: I really urge you to put your thoughts down and write an email instead19:48
holsteinwell, its fashionable to not like ubuntu..  and, thats something larger than ubuntustudio.. but, when folks go to #ardour, for example, and the major piece of advice is "whatever you do, dont use ubuntustudio", i would like to think about why19:48
zequenceto the mail list, that is19:48
holsteinzequence: ? do you not understand that it would take weeks to have this kind of back and forth?19:49
zequenceThere are a lot of things that you are missing about how things really are, and why they are as they are19:49
zequenceIt would be good for you to get those things straightened out19:49
holsteinzequence: sure19:49
zequenceI gotta do some family time now. I'll be back tomorrow19:50
cubg'nite zequence 19:51
holsteincool.. email sent.. reply as you wish..19:52
zequenceholstein: That looked more like trolling, but I20:31
zequencebut I'll answer it anyway20:31
zequenceholstein: Please make sure to read it, and read it well20:44
zequenceYou've been around here for I don't know how many years. If you want to discuss development, please do us the courtesy to at least find out how it works20:45
holsteinzequence: have i ever *not* done that?20:46
holsteinzequence: i will read it, and please, no caps, cussing, or ordering me, or anyone to do things.. thanks20:47
holsteinzequence: i enjoy your perspective, but, thats still not really what i was even talking about, which, i will repond to, after i read20:47
holsteinwhat im getting at is, we dont really need code contributors.. thats all20:47
zequenceHow do you know that?20:47
holsteinbut, if some come along *great*. but, in the mean time, if we can make it seem as though *anyone* is welcome, since, they are..20:48
zequenceYou know that both me and Len are code contributors, right?20:48
zequenceAnd, in a way, all packages have code in them.20:48
holsteini mean, if you want to produce a crop of code contributors, thats great.. but, as cub and i were discussing, it may just be musicians that are interested20:48
holsteinand, im not saying you are *not* contributing code.. just that, if we dont atract code contributors, but, just folks to help wtih emails, and with documentation, etc.. that would be helpful20:49
zequenceDo you want to help with PR?20:50
zequenceCause, I have asked you that before, you know.20:50
holsteinsure, and thats something i can do, and actually do20:50
zequenceThat would mean getting us interviews, making posts on social channels, getting people to read about us, and getting them insterested20:51
holsteinright.. and you see me doing that20:51
holsteindeveloping interest.. and helping folks with installs, converting.. etc..20:52
holsteinbut, im not trying to have a "who does more good" talk. i know, i dont do the same level of heavy lifting that you do, and thats fine20:52
holsteini appreciate all the code contributing folks that help with what makes up our distro20:52
zequenceI'm not talking user support. I'm talking about being responsible of all our social channels, the website, and getting articles for us on different places20:52
zequenceBeing active with PR, so that people can read about us20:53
zequenceAlso, always have that small sentence somewhere, that we are looking for people to help us out20:53
zequenceI don't have time for that, but I do make posts about it sometimes20:53
holsteinsure, thats soemthing i can do20:53
zequenceAnd, usually a few people respond20:53
holsteinthats something i try and do constantly. in person.. irc, FB. where ever i feel it makes sense20:54
holsteini used to bother jono, personally, to try and get him to use US..20:54
zequenceSo, please do. Start planning the whole thing. There's a wiki section for PR & Support. Consider it yours20:54
holsteinzequence: i wont20:54
zequenceDo whatever you like. 20:54
zequenceWhy not?20:55
holsteinzequence: i will, though, bring it up and the meeting, and see if others are ok with me doing so20:55
holsteinotherwise, i will do what i have been doing, and take a look at the wiki20:55
zequenceWhat do you mean, see if others are ok with you helping us out with PR?20:55
holsteinand, maybe, we can get your input, and others input on what that looks like20:55
holsteinzequence: well, i do PR now20:55
holsteinbut, you are saying, you want it a certain way, and that i can "take it over" somehow20:55
zequenceThere's no one who has time for that holstein 20:56
zequenceThis is what I'm talking about20:56
zequenceEither you do something, or you don't. It's up to you20:56
holsteinzequence: righth, and i *alreayd* do20:56
holsteinand you say, its not quite what you are talking about20:56
holsteinbut, again, im not saying no.. im just saying, we can define that roll, and look at how xubuntu and others do it, and what they do that works20:57
holsteinmaybe, pull in  some of the same info.. i try and help with that FB page, when i have time.. articles used to be easier, when i was on the news team, but, i felt as though i was "Staging" news. just for us to have an article20:58
holsteinalso, why are folks not wrting about US? i suppose i took a few steps back, and tried to think about why folks were *not* using the product..20:58
holsteinbut, that is the kind of thing that users like me can do, and im not saying no.. and i'll answer and read your email, and look at your wiki page, etc..20:59
zequenceholstein: This is the PR sections https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PublicRelationsDocumentation21:00
zequenceIt's a mess. Why? Cause no one is taking charge of it21:00
zequenceAnd, why not you do that?21:00
zequenceAside from development, there are only so much you can do. It's "Testing". There's a section about that too21:01
zequenceI mean, there's "Testing"21:01
zequencePR & Support, though two different things, but kind of go in the same category21:01
zequenceDocumentation, which anyone can do. Only developers can do dev docs, though21:02
zequenceAnd artwork, which you need to be an able artist for21:02
zequenceSo, take your pick21:02
zequenceI've always thought of you as the PR guy21:02
zequenceholstein: If you want a bigger community. Meetings. Votes. The best place to start IMO is getting more people involved, and PR is the best weapon for that21:14
OvenWerksWow, long talk.21:52
OvenWerkszequence: holstein: I think doing a distro from the repos is worth while. Running a PPA is already there, in ubuntu, redhat, debian, arch. We don't need to do it again.21:59
OvenWerksI am getting less excited about something that can be added to any flavour too as I think we have found the sweet spot with xfce. But I am still willing to work in that direction.22:00

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