[00:49] <holstein> and, if its literally, just me and zequence voting you in, OvenWerks, and, we determine when the next vote is, thats fine with me
[00:50] <holstein> i think aiming for a normal type of community, like the others, is not a bad goal
[03:50] <OvenWerks> holstein: Honestly, I think there are more people around than just us three :)
[07:25] <zequence> Sure, there are. But, there aren't that many possible candidates.
[07:26] <zequence> If anyone can think of someone, who could/should/would be interested, now is the time to talk to that someone, and that someone will have time to prepare.
[07:27] <zequence> Actually, it may be good to have a vote a few months before I pass it on, so that there's time for that someone to learn what is needed.
[07:27] <zequence> Like, three months before. January, in other words. I'll mention it on the mail list.
[07:56]  * DalekSec votes for himself, just to be a horrible person.
[07:57] <astraljava> As if you'd be the first candidate ever to do that. :D
[09:24] <zequence> cub, we can still add it after feature freeze, though we shouldn't. But, perhaps it can wait until the next LTS?
[10:12] <cub> zequence, Plume Creator, waiting until the LTS we might also be able to include the re-coded 2.0 version. 
[10:17] <zequence> cub: Yeah, that's what I thought too.
[10:18] <zequence> Also, we have more time to figure out -writing, or whatever.
[10:18] <cub> yup
[10:30] <cub> As for Project Lead candidates, I was having high hopes when I started trying to contribute. However as you all know, I haven't had much time to actually do so. It would be sad to see the distro fading away entirely due to noone having the time to run it. Then again, it will do just that without people dedicating their free time volunteering. 
[10:38] <astraljava> I concur, cub, and am pondering heavily on whether to volunteer as a "lay-over" leader if no one else shows up. For the time being, I don't really have any clear visions on where to take the flavor to, but at least to keep the wheels rolling would be something. This has, after all, a very soft spot in my heart after all these years. :)
[10:45] <cub> I had and have ideas, but without being able to commit to the time involved it won't do anyone any good
[10:47] <zequence> If we have at least one developer who can do packaging, and is committed for 2 years, then the lead does not need to be a champion at that.
[10:47] <zequence> Currently, I'm the only one with upload rights. And, I will be available in the future for doing that, even though I think developers here should strive to get upload rights themselves.
[10:48] <zequence> OvenWerks is capable of packagin, so if he would commit to two years, no matter being lead or not, then the lead could focus more on other things.
[10:48] <zequence> I think astraljava has some idea on how to do that too.
[10:49] <zequence> But, again, neither has upload rights, so they always need to ask someone else to do the uploads.
[10:50] <zequence> None of us is a master at it though. And, that is a bit of a problem actually. There is always a danger that someone does something weird, or against packaging policy (Debian Policy)
[10:50] <cub> in an ideal set up the project lead could "just" lead, but with a small team it proves to be necessary to get your hands dirty so to speak. Also because it's easier when you know how to make things happen within Ubuntu and upstream
[10:52] <zequence> I'm thinking, whoever is elected will have the chance to learn all about the structure in the three months before taking over. I would put some effort into that. So, that's actually not a big, big problem.
[10:53] <zequence> So, the candidate could be someone from outside, someone who knows about maintaining a Linux distro, but not Ubuntu Studio, or any other Ubuntu flavor specifically.
[10:53] <zequence> Or, at least has some experience in software development.
[10:57] <cub> yes, but someone with the time to do that for the three months as well
[11:01] <zequence> Of course.
[11:02] <zequence> I'm thinking of people like the AVLinux guy, or falktx, or whoever, if there is any kind of interest.
[11:03] <zequence> They are sufficiently active, but it is not certain that their mind sets are good for the project. But, that is what the voters will have to determine.
[11:06] <cub> yes, that's why I added a note about getting some thoughts from the future PL on where and how Ubuntu Studio is going. There's a reason some start their own distributions as they don't want a team around to meddle with things
[11:07] <zequence> Yep
[11:16] <astraljava> zequence: Yes, from the skillset POV, I am not worried. It's more about having enough time to think about where to drive the flavor, and how to do that.
[12:38] <zequence> I'm new to this https://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/menu.html/ch3.html
[12:38] <zequence> scribus doesn't have a desktop file, but it does have a menu file, which goes in /usr/share/menu/&
[12:38] <zequence> scribus doesn't have a desktop file, but it does have a menu file, which goes in /usr/share/menu/
[12:39] <zequence> doesn't show up in our menu though
[12:41] <OvenWerks> Has scribus dropped the desktop file since 14.04 then? It had a desktop file then.
[12:43] <zequence> I guess so
[12:44] <zequence> I'm sure the command "update-menus" rings a bell. You see it sometimes during package installation.
[12:44] <zequence> Though, I can't find what it belongs to, and how to run it.
[12:45] <astraljava> I seem to recall some similar issues back in the day, can look into it tomorrow to ring some bells.
[12:46] <zequence> There's a package called menu
[12:54] <zequence> I'm assuming you still need a desktop file.
[13:09] <zequence> Well, other packages that have menu files also has a desktop file, so I'm going to assume scribus is missing one. Reporting a bug
[13:19] <zequence> If someone would like to double check, on wily...
[13:19] <zequence> bug 1487031
[13:22] <zequence> OvenWerks: If you would like to pursue upload rights, I will back you, btw. Would be about time you became an Ubuntu member as well.
[15:46] <holstein> OvenWerks: i agree.. i think there are more folks that would be interested in attending a meeting
[15:46] <holstein> i say, we literally just copy what the other teams do.. 
[15:46] <holstein> especially, xubuntu
[16:05] <zequence> scribus is fixed in Debian, but there's a problem with getting the fix downstream. I'm sure it will be fixed one way or another soonish.
[16:07] <zequence> holstein: There is a discussion going on the mail list about this, so if you want to add your thoughts about it, please do
[16:08] <holstein> zequence: sure.. and i waill
[16:08] <holstein> will*
[16:08] <holstein> zequence: unless, you are saying, i *shouldnt* say something here, i'll do both
[16:08] <holstein> i mean, thats the trick.. we will need to have the meetings here, on the IRC
[16:08] <holstein> the vote.. etc..
[16:24] <zequence> Why is IRC better than the mail list?
[16:25] <zequence> For one thing, it is pretty hard to get everyone to attend
[16:25] <zequence> We already have this channel, where we can discuss things
[16:25] <zequence> What's going to happen if we have a meeting, that won't happen on the mail list?
[16:26] <zequence> holstein: mean, what is it that you feel will happen during a meeting that can't happen on the mail list?
[16:37] <cub> a more rapid discussion which might be easier to follow, I think. But then there is the issue with finding a good time for it with time zones, work times etc
[16:38] <cub> but Xubuntu also do mail list voting and decisions
[16:39] <zequence> I just think that if someone has any ideas, or objections to someone elses ideas, it is easy enough to write about it on the mail list
[16:39] <zequence> Usually, I find, not many have opinions anyway, so the meeting becomes more of a coffee and donuts gathering.
[16:40] <zequence> Probably good for team bonding, or something, and I'm probably not very sensitive to that.
[16:40] <cub> yeah, but when a couple of others then have a few questions and/or comments to different parts of that email it quickly gets complicated
[16:40] <zequence> It's important to record stuff on the wiki, which is what I'm doing with the discussions we have now
[16:41] <cub> but back to the question on if there would be a vote, who would vote?
[16:41] <zequence> If you want, you can just hang back until there's a proposal, and then read the wiki to see if you like it or not
[16:41] <cub> the team is loosely gathered unless you would just count the Core team
[16:42] <zequence> I think anyone who is involved in one of the moderated or restricted teams should be allowed to vote
[16:42] <zequence> And, I as I mentioned in the mail list, I can make sure everyone of those are members of -contributor
[16:42] <zequence> That way, we can just say, members of -contributor are allowed to vote
[16:44] <cub> I think that is a good idea.
[16:49] <cub> so what is the best way to put the 15.10 iso to an usb nowadays? My experience with dd or disc creator is random at best
[16:49] <zequence> dd always works for me
[16:49] <zequence> I haven't been using anything else for a good while
[16:49] <cub> about half the times it won't boot for me
[16:50] <zequence> I wouldn't blame dd
[16:50] <zequence> Don't think anything is as straight forward
[16:50] <zequence> And, don't think anything else does some sort of error checking
[16:52] <holstein> zequence: irc is in realtime.. and, its easy.. there is a barrier for *all* things
[16:53] <holstein> i mean, we could meet, and argue doing meetings via something like skype, or google hangouts.. but, the upstream ubuntu community provides a room for meetings in irc, that logs the meetings, etc
[16:53] <holstein> its just easy for us to take advantage of that
[16:54] <holstein> its easier than crowd-sourcing all the aspects, and, having one person dictate the terms.. we literally vote on everything.. copy paste the xubuntu setup to a wiki page agenda.. everything is a bullet point
[16:55] <holstein> we show up, and vote.. in the ubuntu community team meeting channel.. everyone gets say-so.. and can add points to the agenda.. and, the agenda is up, and anyone can add a point to it
[16:55] <cub> anyone installed 1510 to actual harddrive yet? I only have one laptop and is a bit nervous as to break the boot or grub
[16:55] <holstein> any community member can vote.. we could say, "in order to vote, please sign the COC,.. etc
[16:55] <zequence> cub: I have
[16:56] <cub> great, I'll set it up then
[16:57] <cub> Sadly, I only find myself with some time today since my daughter is home with a fever. She's quite happy to hang around in the sofa with a book or ipad then
[16:59] <holstein> what happens here, in realtime, that doenst happen on the list is, realtime collaboration.. and voting.. "next point of order, team lead term.. option 1, 2 years, option 2, 6 months.. !vote"
[16:59] <holstein> thats what we cant do ^.. on the email, it just bounces around, and someone dictates a decision
[17:01] <holstein> zequence: i feel, you are just saying, you dont want to have a meeting like the other communities do.. *all* of the other communities, and teams.. why?
[17:01] <holstein> zequence: why are you opposed to having a normal meeting time? and terms that all community members vote on? 
[17:02] <holstein> it would be like that, similarly, in the future.. "next point - publication menu section discussion".. then, voting on things, and getting things done
[17:02] <holstein> the channel that is provided for us to use logging the decisions, and, the tasks.. etc
[17:02] <cub> Jono Bacon favour Google Hangout or Freenode for meetings, but sure that's only one suggestion
[17:03] <cub> holstein, one of the difficulties with an online meeting is the time schedule to allow for as many as possible to participate
[17:03] <holstein> cub: sure.. and *all* other teams deal with that
[17:03] <cub> other than that, I also prefer "live" meetings for some thigns
[17:03] <holstein> what do you do? vote on the meeting times.. absentee voting?
[17:03] <holstein> read the official logs
[17:03] <holstein> *nothing* cant be addressed..
[17:03] <cub> I think Xubuntu have a log for absentee voting
[17:03] <holstein> yup ^
[17:04] <holstein> we just literallly copy paste what xubuntu has, and have a meeting to vote on all of those as bullet points
[17:04] <cub> though that also means you vote in advance and can't take into account stuff that might come up in the discussion
[17:04] <holstein> allowing folks to add whatever they want to it.. or, options..
[17:05] <zequence> holstein: While you say all this, I am preparing a wiki page of what is being discussed on the mail list. 
[17:05] <holstein> theres no perfect solution.. but, if we have a meeting, and you show up, you vote, and get say-so..
[17:05] <cub> How about you for nomination holstein ? You've been around for a long time
[17:05] <zequence> holstein: No one is dictating anything.
[17:05] <holstein> zequence: lol
[17:05] <holstein> zequence: the team lead position its self has been dictated for literally 6 years, or, as long as ive been here
[17:06] <holstein> zequence: we have no community meetings.. or, community outlet for input.. im not stating anything but facts
[17:06] <cub> well there isn't much of a community
[17:06] <zequence> that's total bullshit
[17:06] <holstein> folks have nothing to join, here.. its just not the same as the other communities.. and, i for one, would just like to try implementing
[17:06] <holstein> zequence: its not..
[17:07] <holstein> zequence: it was dicated to me.. and the rest of the community.. and, thats fine
[17:07] <holstein> im not asking for changes retroactively.. or oppologies.. just, that we try and emulate the other teams, going forward
[17:07] <holstein> try having meetings.., letting folks vote, and accept tasks..
[17:08] <zequence> holstein: Guess how many active contributors we had last autumn, actually doing something?
[17:08] <holstein> zequence: sure, and why?
[17:08] <zequence> holstein: Just to make a point
[17:08] <zequence> Give me a number
[17:08] <holstein> zequence: what team are they joining?.. you know?
[17:08] <holstein> i think we can argue chicken or egg there.. but, we can both agree, we have a small team
[17:08] <zequence> 1
[17:08] <cub> 2?
[17:08] <holstein> im only proposing emulating the larger teams.. 
[17:09] <holstein> there is infrastructure in place to help us.. 
[17:09] <zequence> For this cycle, we have had a lot more interest, but how many have actually done anything else but discuss?
[17:09] <holstein> zequence: what do they do?
[17:10] <holstein> zequence: you cant show a bullet point, or a vote.. etc.. i mean, are we aruging to *not* emulate al the other teams?
[17:10] <holstein> the ones that are thriving? and growing?
[17:10] <zequence> holstein: What you want is for you to be able to attend meetings and vote for stuff that 1 or 2 other people will have to do
[17:10] <zequence> Are you seeing my point yet?
[17:10] <holstein> zequence: i didnt say that
[17:11] <holstein> the attendees can accept tasks, or, someone can ask for help from upstream, or, on the mailing list.. etc
[17:11] <holstein> i mean, how is this a negative thing? having a team meeting?
[17:12] <holstein> i dont think it would hurt to try having simply monthly meetings.. all things can be voted on.. the meeting time, for example.. if someone wanted to move it
[17:13] <holstein> its not up to 1 or 2 people to do everything, and shouldnt be.. and, thats something that the meetings would facilitate a conversation about
[17:13] <zequence> I'll agree to that the day there are more than 2 active developers
[17:13] <holstein> zequence: yes, but, again, thats *you* dictating
[17:13] <zequence> Well, there are three now, tbh. But, still, a few more than now
[17:13] <zequence> holstein: You are not a developer
[17:14] <holstein> zequence: so
[17:14] <zequence> holstein: You are just here chatting
[17:14] <zequence> What is it that you want us to do?
[17:14] <holstein> im a community member.. offering to assist with infrastructure, and community structure..
[17:14] <cub> well holstein is pitching a good part in the support 
[17:15] <holstein> zequence: i am only proposing we try and emulate a team that i would think we can both agree could make for attracting more members
[17:15] <holstein> the xubuntu team
[17:15] <holstein> we literally just copy paste, and vote on the points.. then, we get that as a frame work, but, we have plenty of time for each of the interested parties to review and edit.. and add voting points
[17:16] <zequence> The problem is not about how we communicate. There's more than enough communication going on here
[17:16] <holstein> im not trying to be a developer.. nor, do i intend to be one.. but, that doesnt make my voice less important.. and *that* is why im proposing we are not growing a community
[17:16] <zequence> The problem is in getting people to do some actual work
[17:16] <holstein> zequence: sure.. and, i can agree with that
[17:16] <holstein> zequence: so, we have a meeting, where folks are clearly accepting tasks.. or, accepting the task of asking for help doing something
[17:17] <holstein> just a factual thing that we can point to "you said you would get testers together for the lowlatency kernel for the 16.04 cycle, how is that going?"
[17:17] <holstein> and, we check in.. im propsing simply monthly to start..
[17:17] <holstein> since, i konw we are all busy..
[17:18] <zequence> I'm just now calling out for Beta testers. And I will do that in all our channels, website, etc. Usually, it's me and someone from Xubuntu testing our ISOs
[17:18] <zequence> Don't think a lack of meetings is causing that
[17:18] <holstein> zequence: sure.. and i know, i appreciate that. but, what if we had a team? where, you can just ask someone else to do that? and put that as a bullet point? 
[17:19] <holstein> *anyone* can do that..
[17:19] <holstein> you dont need to be emailing.. and, you dont ask for help with it..
[17:19] <holstein> you dont have to be a developer to edit wikis and send emails.. etc.. thats something that i think one of the newer contributors would be excited about taking on
[17:20] <zequence> If you want to fix a hole in a tire, you must first have a tire.
[17:21] <holstein> zequence: lol
[17:21] <holstein> we *have* a tire..
[17:22] <holstein> anyways, i wont send anything to the list til we are in agreement.. as a courtesy
[17:22] <holstein> zequence: i would not mind scheduling time to discuss with you, in particular, and hash this out..
[17:22] <holstein> folks are here, and they are ready for tasks.. they are not being given them..
[17:23] <zequence> That's simply not true
[17:23] <holstein> we happen to have had about 5 strong in this channel over the past few days.. and, thats really all it would take
[17:23] <holstein> zequence: if its not, then, its not.. and no one will come.. and who cares? right?!
[17:23] <holstein> zequence: what is the problem with trying to emulate the xubuntu team?
[17:23] <zequence> I mean, people have already committeds to all sorts of tasks
[17:24] <holstein> right,a nd in the meeting, we can say, "hey, hows that going? do you need help?"
[17:24] <holstein> rather than, 6, 8 months later, kind of half remembering a conversation somewhere.. or whatever
[17:25] <holstein> we have upstream support.. we have lots of help with the xubuntu team, who, im sure would help someone with whatever we would need help with
[17:27] <holstein> im not asking to take anything over. or, away from anyone.. im only asking for open-ness, and, regular meetings. and democratic voting.. and delegation.. etc
[17:28] <holstein> if you want to keep things as they are, and just dictate the team lead to everyone, in the background, and, keep things going as they are, we can surely discuss that..
[17:28] <zequence> I have never said anything else than that we should have a vote
[17:28] <zequence> And, I never discuss anything behind any doors
[17:29] <zequence> ..if it involves the whole team, that is.
[17:29] <holstein> *everything* needs to involve the whole team
[17:29] <zequence> It's all very, very open holstein 
[17:30] <zequence> It's like this: you want to do something, you do it, unless someone objects, and then we have a discussion.
[17:30] <holstein> zequence: again, all i can say is, it hasnt been, and there are no meetings for me to attend to vote in.. me, or new members..
[17:30] <zequence> holstein: Just read the damn mail list, and the wiki for information
[17:30] <zequence> It's all there
[17:30] <holstein> im not making things up.. the team lead position has not been voted on, factually, for years.. 
[17:31] <zequence> I know that, but that is some time ago. And, Scott was not in a position to make a vote happen when he left.
[17:31] <zequence> I was barely able to take over. It was pretty difficult to get things done then
[17:31] <holstein> its not scotts position to do so
[17:31] <zequence> I didn't want to become lead, even
[17:31] <holstein> if its an open community, then, its open.. and it wasnt
[17:31] <zequence> But, there was no other way
[17:32] <holstein> im *glad* you are lead. and think you have done a great job.. im only talking about, the future.. and facts about the past
[17:32] <holstein> a vote would have been the other way..
[17:32] <zequence> There will be a vote, if candidates can be produced.
[17:32] <holstein> we dont even need "candidates".. even if its just OvenWerks ..which is fine.. we *still* vote
[17:33] <holstein> we still have say so, and welcome him, and define the terms.. etc..
[17:34] <zequence> holstein: If you like, we can have meetings over the next cycle, which will be my last. You get to do all the work in preparing for them, but I will at least need to look over the structure and make sure it's in line with how we do things
[17:35] <holstein> zequence: i actually wasnt going to offer to blanketly do "all the work for it", but, i was also going to offer to assist someone else in doing it..
[17:35] <zequence> Oh, then who?
[17:35] <zequence> Me?
[17:35] <holstein> zequence: if i need to, i can.. and, i will make sure you and i are in agreement before i send anything to the list
[17:36] <holstein> zequence: *you* are the one telling me work to do ;) not me telling you
[17:36] <zequence> So far, I think only you feel really strong about it, and maybe cub is leaning your way. So, there's the two of you
[17:37] <zequence> But, perhaps there are more who would be willing on the mail list
[17:37] <holstein> zequence: to be clear, im not asking that you do any preperation work
[17:37] <zequence> Some people come and go.
[17:38] <holstein> i wont send anything surprising that we dont dicuss to the list.. but, think this over, and you can let me know, before i formulate the mail
[17:39] <zequence> You can write whatever you like on the mail list. It's not up to me, you know
[17:39] <holstein> that, we would basically have a meeting, in the official meeting channel.. start a wiki agenda for it, copy past the xubuntu team info, and allow folks to add what they want to it, for voting bullet points..
[17:40] <cub> I support having meetings. But I also understand the point that if only 1 or 2 show up it's not worth the administration around it
[17:40] <holstein> zequence: yes. but, im not interested in crowd-sourcing it there.. for discussion.. id like to have the date worked out, and the agenda up, and folks can edit as they want, prior to meeting, or, ask for the time to be moved, etc..
[17:40] <cub> like myself, I could organise meetings but then something comes up concerning work or family and I will have to bail out. That's even worse than not having meetings
[17:40] <holstein> but, even if its just 2 in the meeting, in the future, and that one person can ask for help with something, thats helpful..
[17:41] <holstein> if the administration is too much, we discuss..
[17:41] <holstein> the channel does most of the work, for the post meeting.. AFAIK.. these days, that helps out a lot
[17:42] <cub> yes when you have learned the irc meeting bot the notes are done when the meeting's done
[17:42] <holstein> we used to have to do it manually :/
[17:42] <cub> but someone need to learn (and remember how to) and then run it every time
[17:42] <zequence> Here's the page for how to vote for a project lead https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ProjectLeadVote
[17:42] <holstein> that was some crazy overhead.. for a team that didnt do much..
[17:43] <holstein> anyways, im back to work here.. its been a real pressure talking with you..
[17:43] <holstein> i mean, pleasure ;)
[17:44] <zequence> I'm mergine the "core" and "developer" sections in the wiki later. Everything that a Ubuntu Studio developer needs to know will be in the "developer" section
[17:44] <cub> haha
[17:44] <cub> perhaps both, holstein 
[17:47] <cub> The hard part is to attract more people to contribute. It's a quite narrow field since you need to be interested in open source and sort computers and then music/audio/graphics/video.
[17:47] <cub> It's not like Xubuntu whose targets are everyone
[17:47] <zequence> I think I will be ready with all the stuff that I felt lacked when I started out, just by the time I decide not to do it anymore
[17:47] <zequence> The wiki will be awesome when its finished
[17:48] <zequence> People just need to read it
[17:48] <cub> zequence, really? That is nice though
[17:48] <zequence> You should have seen the wiki when I started.
[17:48] <zequence> There was no structure whatsoever. Not for many years
[17:49] <cub> time to put the kid to bed ...
[17:49] <zequence> cub: Sweet dreams to her
[17:50] <zequence> Could be some folks are deterred from doing this, since they feel they don't have good enough experience of multimedia production
[17:50] <zequence> ..but would otherwise be really good at all of the other stuff, like packaging, and bug fixing
[18:49] <cub> I think many think you need to be a savvy computer geek, excellent coder, know several programming languages, to be able to contribute. There's a hurdle to get over to reach people and make it clear to them that a team need many different skills
[18:50] <cub> It took me a while to get over, even though it's there on the web page you still think "well I'm not a coder so I'm to no use"
[19:26] <holstein> cub: and, i think thats a conversation i would like to have, for sure
[19:27] <holstein> like, are we relevant as a distro? do we need to just make it a "plugin" for any other flavor? i know mate is doing that.. an ubuntu-mate audio editing version, for example
[19:27] <holstein> do we need code contributors?
[19:28] <holstein> we are not even allowed to contribute much into the repos.. 
[19:28] <holstein> and, thats something else that we could talk about.. going "unofficial" and maintaining a PPA.. basically something like what kxstudio is doing.. 
[19:29] <holstein> these are the kinds of things we could entertain before anyone starts working on 16.04.. i know cory had come in, and suggested that, which, i actually thought was worth entertaining. but, it was about 5 weeks before the release of one of the versions.. prolly 12.04
[19:31] <cub> I think being an official distro is an advantage, I'm always a bit skeptic about PPAs myself. But it all comes down to having enough people to spin it around
[19:32] <zequence> holstein: I don't think you have a very good understanding of the whole development process, and that is one of the problems I have with a lot of your opinions
[19:33] <zequence> It's not true that we don't have access. Everyone in this world has access to all sources.
[19:33] <cub> there's already the plan or idea of being WM agnostic
[19:33] <zequence> I have upload rights to all Ubuntu Studio packages. Also to all Debian multimedia package sources
[19:33] <holstein> zequence: sure, and why?
[19:33] <holstein> you are  not a MOTU?
[19:34] <zequence> What do you mean why?
[19:34] <holstein> is it just because, we dont have the team in place? or, is it just access to configs? etc
[19:34] <zequence> No, as I said, I have upload rights to all of the Ubuntu Studio packages
[19:34] <holstein> i mean, i dont want just *anyone* uploading into ubuntu.. there are checks in place, for a reason
[19:34] <zequence> At any time, I can upload a new version of any of our packages
[19:34] <holstein> and, if we dont have access to build, and add packages, we dont really need developers
[19:34] <holstein> we certainly dont need a lot of them
[19:35] <holstein> i think, i deally, one of us would be a MOTU, or, even ideally, a paid developer, with our specific interests in mind
[19:35] <cub> with developers we could do much more though
[19:35] <holstein> having a paid developer is quite unlikely, since, even the KDE paid dev is not paid anymore.. and, AFAIK, that was the last of the flavors that had paid development
[19:36] <holstein> but, i dont think we are missing developers.. and, if we get contributors, some of them will likely either be developers, or, interested in development
[19:36] <cub> but otherwise it's more or less just puzzling together what apps to include
[19:36] <holstein> or, they are just musicians, and can ask *others* for assistance, with the specific needs.. like, a liason with debian, or whatever
[19:36] <holstein> it doesnt require coding experience to talk about packages in debian that we get
[19:37] <holstein> zequence: i dont have *any* idea about development, and dont want to
[19:37] <holstein> zequence: im not interested in doing development, and thats not a requiment of being a contributor to the community here.. and i dont think we need to give that impression, or, that its really something we specifically lack
[19:37] <holstein> since, we are not really given the control of the development
[19:38] <holstein> now, as im saying, and generally asking, for discussion, we *could* break off, and do something else, where, we would have more control, and need for developers..
[19:38] <zequence> We ARE IN CONTROL OF DEVELOPMENT
[19:38] <holstein> zequence: please, no caps
[19:38] <holstein> zequence: no caps, no cussing.. less attacking vibe towards me, please.. generally
[19:39] <zequence> We have full control of everything
[19:39] <holstein> im not attacking you. im simply suggesting, that, we really dont have need for developers.. we cant develop an app, and just drop it, willy nilly, in the repos
[19:40] <holstein> if we can, then, why are we not adding falks stuff? the stuff that is being requested that we have? and that folks leave ubuntustudio for kxstudio over?
[19:40] <zequence> As long as we comply with policies, we are able to do what we want and need to do
[19:40] <cub> we could, ubuntustudio-controls is something like that, no?
[19:41] <zequence> Sure, but the best way is to do it in Debian, which has already been under way for many years
[19:41] <zequence> Don't ask me why it hasn't happened yet
[19:41] <holstein> sure. but, who do we ask? and if we have control, we dont have to
[19:41] <holstein> we just stick them in.. lots of folks want them
[19:41] <cub> that's something I have been toying with for a while, why don't we do Debian Studio
[19:42] <zequence> anyone can package falktx packages and put them in either UBuntu or Debian repos
[19:42] <zequence> There's nothing stopping them
[19:42] <cub> but since Jessie is the first Debian that actually worked right away on my laptop I haven't considered it more until now
[19:42] <holstein> i think there is something stopping one of us from dropping them in the ubuntu repo
[19:42] <zequence> holstein: There isnät
[19:42] <holstein> but, if there is not, then, i think we can simply ask falk to do it
[19:42] <zequence> isn't*
[19:42] <zequence> Like I said, you don't seem to know a whole lot about how packaging works
[19:43] <holstein> ok.. so, we do that at the meeting, then, i'll ask falk to assist packing, since, he already does it, and we put them in
[19:43] <holstein> zequence: i dont want to konw, friend..
[19:43] <zequence> falktx doesn't want to package his stuff for Debian
[19:43] <zequence> falktx doesn't want anything to do with either Debian or Ubuntu developers and their policices
[19:43] <zequence> That's at least the impression I have got from him
[19:43] <zequence> He doesn't like rules
[19:43] <cub> If Falk was interested wouldn't he be involved already? I've got the impression he wants to do his own thing
[19:44] <cub> exactly
[19:44] <holstein> well, i'll actually ask him, if we actually have the rights to put them in
[19:44] <zequence> holstein: Anyone can put anything in, as long as it complies with policies
[19:44] <zequence> holstein: That's what free software is all about
[19:45] <zequence> If you don't have upload rights, you need a sponsor. That's all
[19:45] <holstein> sure.. a motu sponsor, correct? the person that *actually* puts the stuff in..
[19:46] <holstein> i get that.. and, thats fine.. but, all i want to do is constructively talk about getting some of the things that i think we can all agree, folks move away from ubuntustudio to get
[19:46] <zequence> But, any package that has a free license should go into Debian. From there it will automatically be imported into Ubuntu
[19:47] <zequence> Folks have strange ideas, and often thanks to people with strange opinions
[19:47] <holstein> or, we can just not do ubuntustudio,a nd assist falk, or make our own PPA's.. if we cant do pro audio within the confines of the policies, which, im not saying we cant, just that, if thats true, we can just stop trying
[19:47] <zequence> Ironically, a lot of people hostile to Ubuntu are people with little or no experience with it
[19:48] <zequence> holstein: I really urge you to put your thoughts down and write an email instead
[19:48] <holstein> well, its fashionable to not like ubuntu..  and, thats something larger than ubuntustudio.. but, when folks go to #ardour, for example, and the major piece of advice is "whatever you do, dont use ubuntustudio", i would like to think about why
[19:48] <zequence> to the mail list, that is
[19:49] <holstein> zequence: ? do you not understand that it would take weeks to have this kind of back and forth?
[19:49] <zequence> There are a lot of things that you are missing about how things really are, and why they are as they are
[19:49] <zequence> It would be good for you to get those things straightened out
[19:49] <holstein> zequence: sure
[19:50] <zequence> I gotta do some family time now. I'll be back tomorrow
[19:51] <cub> g'nite zequence 
[19:52] <holstein> cool.. email sent.. reply as you wish..
[20:31] <zequence> holstein: That looked more like trolling, but I
[20:31] <zequence> but I'll answer it anyway
[20:44] <zequence> holstein: Please make sure to read it, and read it well
[20:45] <zequence> You've been around here for I don't know how many years. If you want to discuss development, please do us the courtesy to at least find out how it works
[20:46] <holstein> zequence: have i ever *not* done that?
[20:47] <holstein> zequence: i will read it, and please, no caps, cussing, or ordering me, or anyone to do things.. thanks
[20:47] <holstein> zequence: i enjoy your perspective, but, thats still not really what i was even talking about, which, i will repond to, after i read
[20:47] <holstein> what im getting at is, we dont really need code contributors.. thats all
[20:47] <zequence> How do you know that?
[20:48] <holstein> but, if some come along *great*. but, in the mean time, if we can make it seem as though *anyone* is welcome, since, they are..
[20:48] <zequence> You know that both me and Len are code contributors, right?
[20:48] <zequence> And, in a way, all packages have code in them.
[20:48] <holstein> i mean, if you want to produce a crop of code contributors, thats great.. but, as cub and i were discussing, it may just be musicians that are interested
[20:49] <holstein> and, im not saying you are *not* contributing code.. just that, if we dont atract code contributors, but, just folks to help wtih emails, and with documentation, etc.. that would be helpful
[20:50] <zequence> Do you want to help with PR?
[20:50] <zequence> Cause, I have asked you that before, you know.
[20:50] <holstein> sure, and thats something i can do, and actually do
[20:51] <zequence> That would mean getting us interviews, making posts on social channels, getting people to read about us, and getting them insterested
[20:51] <holstein> right.. and you see me doing that
[20:52] <holstein> developing interest.. and helping folks with installs, converting.. etc..
[20:52] <holstein> but, im not trying to have a "who does more good" talk. i know, i dont do the same level of heavy lifting that you do, and thats fine
[20:52] <holstein> i appreciate all the code contributing folks that help with what makes up our distro
[20:52] <zequence> I'm not talking user support. I'm talking about being responsible of all our social channels, the website, and getting articles for us on different places
[20:53] <zequence> Being active with PR, so that people can read about us
[20:53] <zequence> Also, always have that small sentence somewhere, that we are looking for people to help us out
[20:53] <zequence> I don't have time for that, but I do make posts about it sometimes
[20:53] <holstein> sure, thats soemthing i can do
[20:53] <zequence> And, usually a few people respond
[20:54] <holstein> thats something i try and do constantly. in person.. irc, FB. where ever i feel it makes sense
[20:54] <holstein> i used to bother jono, personally, to try and get him to use US..
[20:54] <zequence> So, please do. Start planning the whole thing. There's a wiki section for PR & Support. Consider it yours
[20:54] <holstein> zequence: i wont
[20:54] <zequence> Do whatever you like. 
[20:55] <zequence> Why not?
[20:55] <holstein> zequence: i will, though, bring it up and the meeting, and see if others are ok with me doing so
[20:55] <holstein> otherwise, i will do what i have been doing, and take a look at the wiki
[20:55] <zequence> What do you mean, see if others are ok with you helping us out with PR?
[20:55] <holstein> and, maybe, we can get your input, and others input on what that looks like
[20:55] <holstein> zequence: well, i do PR now
[20:55] <holstein> but, you are saying, you want it a certain way, and that i can "take it over" somehow
[20:56] <zequence> There's no one who has time for that holstein 
[20:56] <zequence> This is what I'm talking about
[20:56] <zequence> Either you do something, or you don't. It's up to you
[20:56] <holstein> zequence: righth, and i *alreayd* do
[20:56] <holstein> and you say, its not quite what you are talking about
[20:57] <holstein> but, again, im not saying no.. im just saying, we can define that roll, and look at how xubuntu and others do it, and what they do that works
[20:58] <holstein> maybe, pull in  some of the same info.. i try and help with that FB page, when i have time.. articles used to be easier, when i was on the news team, but, i felt as though i was "Staging" news. just for us to have an article
[20:58] <holstein> also, why are folks not wrting about US? i suppose i took a few steps back, and tried to think about why folks were *not* using the product..
[20:59] <holstein> but, that is the kind of thing that users like me can do, and im not saying no.. and i'll answer and read your email, and look at your wiki page, etc..
[21:00] <zequence> holstein: This is the PR sections https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PublicRelationsDocumentation
[21:00] <zequence> It's a mess. Why? Cause no one is taking charge of it
[21:00] <zequence> And, why not you do that?
[21:01] <zequence> Aside from development, there are only so much you can do. It's "Testing". There's a section about that too
[21:01] <zequence> I mean, there's "Testing"
[21:01] <zequence> PR & Support, though two different things, but kind of go in the same category
[21:02] <zequence> Documentation, which anyone can do. Only developers can do dev docs, though
[21:02] <zequence> And artwork, which you need to be an able artist for
[21:02] <zequence> So, take your pick
[21:02] <zequence> I've always thought of you as the PR guy
[21:14] <zequence> holstein: If you want a bigger community. Meetings. Votes. The best place to start IMO is getting more people involved, and PR is the best weapon for that
[21:52] <OvenWerks> Wow, long talk.
[21:59] <OvenWerks> zequence: holstein: I think doing a distro from the repos is worth while. Running a PPA is already there, in ubuntu, redhat, debian, arch. We don't need to do it again.
[22:00] <OvenWerks> I am getting less excited about something that can be added to any flavour too as I think we have found the sweet spot with xfce. But I am still willing to work in that direction.