[02:21] Do you guys usually develop on virtual boxes? [02:22] omegaphoenix: I develop on hardware, test with virtual machines and hardware [02:23] virtual machines let me test multiple configurations and distros easily (debian, fedora, opensuse, etc) [02:25] Where are the files for development? [02:25] I found the daily build page [02:26] omegaphoenix: primarily launchpad.net and git.xfce.org [02:36] flocculant: it worrrrrrks! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXWXF4LffgY&feature=youtu.be [03:01] night all [03:45] How does Xubuntu development set-up differ from packaging.ubuntu.com/html/getting-set-up.html === HoloIRCUser1 is now known as omegaphoenix [08:48] bluesabre: \o/ === flocculant is now known as Guest18045 === Guest18045 is now known as flocculant [12:30] well I more or less successfully exported panel config to a clean install :) [12:31] knome: ack the "sanest thing to do is to group them by month, then add some indication of the date" [12:31] :) [12:31] i'll land that change later today.. [13:23] flocculant, done === HoloIRCUser1 is now known as omegaphoenix === sinewav1 is now known as sinewav [21:48] andrzejr: not sure what version of greybird you're using and yeah ofc with a different xfwm4 theme things become inconsistent. sorry you don't like the xfwm4 theme of greybird, i guess you'd have to modify the greybird CSD styling yourself in order to get what you want... [21:51] ochosi, I've seen your discussion with ofourdan. Couldn't really follow the details, but is there any reason why Greybird couldn't include some xfwm4-specific css definitions coming from another xfwm4 theme? [21:52] well you can do that yourself by modifying the respective portions of css in greybird [21:52] but there is no (unhacky) dynamic way to do that [21:52] why not? You can dynamically change the theme after all. [21:52] thing is, it's very simple: with CSD you lose the ability to indepedently choose gtk and wm theme [21:52] because it's the same [21:53] also, there is no xfwm4-specific css [21:53] so far [21:53] xfwm4 has its own theming system (which olivier wants to keep in place) [21:54] so yeah, i guess as long as xfce doesn't go CSD all over, you'll have to live with what we have atm [21:54] the situation even won't change when xfwm4 is ported to gtk3 [21:54] simply because the theming isn't done in CSS and nothing is drawn by Gtk [21:55] we could add css to all default xfwm themes. I assume the only thing left to do is to include it in a gtk theme. [21:55] that was my suggestion to olivier, but he felt it was too hacky [21:55] there is no easy way to override the current theme with a css portion afaik [21:56] i mean: not within the app but from the outside (e.g. coming from xfsettingsd) [21:56] we could have a link xfwm4.css or similar pointing to the current theme, [21:57] oh also: if you want to change more than just the wm icons, that css file would be fairly long [21:57] you'd have to theme the whole headerbar and somehow ensure it'd still be consistent with *any given gtk theme* [21:58] how does xfsettingsd currently change the gtk theme? We could use the same method. [21:59] changes an xsetting afaik [21:59] this one: /Net/ThemeName [21:59] That's the point. It doesn't have to be consistent with any gtk theme, only with xfwm themes. [22:00] it sure does. headerbars/CSD contains Gtk widgets like buttons, comboboxes, entries etc [22:00] you can't make those look like crap or unreadable with the CSS you're loading [22:01] so yeah, long story short: appearance settings isn't the solution cause it changes an xsetting that Gtk+ listens to and then changes the theme [22:01] maybe it can be done manually too, one would have to read the Gtk+ source code though to know for sure [22:01] since it is an Xfwm-specific mechanism we could add our own xsettings entry. [22:01] (and yeah, the easy way is putting a file in ~/.config/gtk-3.0) [22:02] anyhoo, the other thing is that i'm not really sure it's worth it... [22:02] it's a lot of hassle and hackiness for dubious outcome [22:02] the ideal situation is that you use a gtk and xfwm4 theme that match [22:04] The last resort solution is indeed making a new theme. A naive question, would you mind adding more contrast to Greybird's window decorations an widening the borders to >=4px? [22:05] this isn't the kind of change i take lightly tbh [22:05] i haven't heard many complaints about the contrast in a very long time [22:06] (or any to be exact) [22:06] wrt xfwm4 decoration borders, yeah, i've been working on a wider version [22:06] I know it is in "usability vs prettiness" territory but many users would appreciate such changes, even if as a variant. [22:06] i personally dont like it and i'm not sure why anyone would need it, but sure... :) [22:06] (yeah, yeah, the usual complaint is about resizing windows but there are so many other ways to resize windows...) [22:07] so yeah, the a11y variant is planned but still a few steps away [22:07] oops, that blew my idle cover :O [22:07] :P [22:07] i currently just dont have the time to work with it very much [22:07] hehe indeed :p [22:08] i was just going to step out of the misty closet anyway [22:08] I agree with this complaint. Resizing the windows is *the* purpose of window borders. Otherwise why include them at all. [22:08] andrzejr, i don't agree, the purpose of the window borders is to create structure for the data on the screen ;) [22:10] andrzejr: that's ok, then make xfwm4 use the shadow of the window as its resize area (like CSD do) ;) [22:10] ochosi, i'd like you to check out something [22:10] ochosi, bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs [22:10] ochosi, in branch root: make clean style html [22:11] err [22:11] ochosi, make startpage html <- should be enough and correct [22:11] ochosi, then see build/index.html [22:11] fair point. but afaik that wouldn't work without compositing enabled. [22:11] andrzejr, of course not, because there is no shadow then [22:12] but then again you could use another xfwm theme (for example, the greybird a11y version, hopefully in the near future) [22:14] I hope the a11y version will not go overboard with a11y. There is nothing wrong with Gtk widgets theming, just the wm part. [22:14] no, it's not supposed to be high contrast [22:15] ochosi, did you pick that up? :) [22:15] andrzejr: you can try the xfwm4-a11y branch of greybird if you want, but it's still very much WIP [22:16] andrzejr, and if you have specific wishes/suggestions, at least i don't care if you submit them as issues in github [22:16] oh, I didn't know you've got something already. [22:16] something... not a lot [22:18] well, my wish is to make the CSD fad go away (not just for visual inconsistency, I consider it a massive step back in terms of usability too). But I guess that a WONTFIX. [22:19] that's not something for greybird anyway [22:21] sure, just ranting [22:21] :> [22:21] ;) [22:21] ochosi, hellooooo? [22:21] knome: i'm pulling... [22:21] thanks :P [22:22] i'm using my phone with tethering,no interwebs in new flat yet... [22:22] awwh [22:22] so yeah, that sort of thing takes time [22:22] plus LP is slow [22:22] i could have pushed stuff in the webs for you then [22:22] well, pulling the docs branch is always slow [22:22] when you do it with no previous data [22:23] i'll race you, let's see if i'm ready first [22:23] ok done [22:23] aha [22:23] you win [22:23] now do: make startpage html [22:24] and forget my sillyness about style and clean before ;) [22:24] much nicer look than the current docs [22:24] heh [22:24] well [22:24] looks more like the website ;) [22:24] it's a slight refresh [22:24] yeah, that's the point [22:24] with the shadows and colors [22:24] also click to the docs [22:24] should have a similar style [22:25] so if you're happy with that, then good [22:25] yup, +1 from me [22:25] just wanted another pair of eyes [22:25] why does the TOC have to have that dark bar on the left? [22:26] if you go to a chapter page, you'll notice why [22:26] (it would mix in too easily with the content) [22:26] and why is it that hyperlinks are blue *and* underlined? [22:26] and keeping it on the frontpage as well makes stuff consistent [22:26] right [22:27] i think just changing the color is meh with short paragraphs [22:27] eg, see http://docs.xubuntu.org/1410/guide-default-apps.html#default-graphics [22:27] it would look weird with no underlines [22:27] and it's added clarity [22:27] which is never bad in a documentation imo [22:28] there are also other blue things, eg. http://docs.xubuntu.org/1410/media-apps.html#media-music-listen [22:28] sure, they are different blues, but if people see elliptic circles.. [22:28] O;) [22:29] hah [22:29] sad excuses! [22:29] :D [22:29] :D [22:29] no, i stand by the style [22:29] i think it's good [22:29] it works well with the content we have there [22:29] anyway, nice refresh [22:29] maybe we should add the underlines for the website as well ;) [22:30] (no, not really, that's a different beast) [22:30] and thanks [22:30] the home icon is a bit awkward though tbh, why is it not blue like the navigation arrows? [22:31] * ochosi feels nitpicky [22:31] because != https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68ugkg9RePc [22:33] ouch [22:33] good i have my laptop muted by default [22:33] so, no blue house and no blue window [22:33] just fifty shades of grey [22:33] :P [22:33] :D [22:34] anyhoo, gotta get some sleep [22:34] well, the real answer: [22:34] i tried that when i did those icons, and it looked weird with all blue [22:34] and nighty :) [22:34] that's ok :) [22:34] (and good luck with the "sleep" part) [22:34] heh, thanks