[02:21] <omegaphoenix> Do you guys usually develop on virtual boxes?
[02:22] <bluesabre> omegaphoenix: I develop on hardware, test with virtual machines and hardware
[02:23] <bluesabre> virtual machines let me test multiple configurations and distros easily (debian, fedora, opensuse, etc)
[02:25] <omegaphoenix> Where are the files for development?
[02:25] <omegaphoenix> I found the daily build page
[02:26] <bluesabre> omegaphoenix: primarily launchpad.net and git.xfce.org
[02:36] <bluesabre> flocculant: it worrrrrrks! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXWXF4LffgY&feature=youtu.be
[03:01] <bluesabre> night all
[03:45] <HoloIRCUser1> How does Xubuntu development set-up differ from packaging.ubuntu.com/html/getting-set-up.html
[08:48] <flocculant> bluesabre: \o/
[12:30] <flocculant> well I more or less successfully exported panel config to a clean install :)
[12:31] <flocculant> knome: ack the "sanest thing to do is to group them by month, then add some indication of the date"
[12:31] <knome>  :)
[12:31] <knome> i'll land that change later today..
[13:23] <knome> flocculant, done
[21:48] <ochosi> andrzejr: not sure what version of greybird you're using and yeah ofc with a different xfwm4 theme things become inconsistent. sorry you don't like the xfwm4 theme of greybird, i guess you'd have to modify the greybird CSD styling yourself in order to get what you want...
[21:51] <andrzejr> ochosi, I've seen your discussion with ofourdan. Couldn't really follow the details, but is there any reason why Greybird couldn't include some xfwm4-specific css definitions coming from another xfwm4 theme?
[21:52] <ochosi> well you can do that yourself by modifying the respective portions of css in greybird
[21:52] <ochosi> but there is no (unhacky) dynamic way to do that
[21:52] <andrzejr> why not? You can dynamically change the theme after all.
[21:52] <ochosi> thing is, it's very simple: with CSD you lose the ability to indepedently choose gtk and wm theme
[21:52] <ochosi> because it's the same
[21:53] <ochosi> also, there is no xfwm4-specific css
[21:53] <andrzejr> so far
[21:53] <ochosi> xfwm4 has its own theming system (which olivier wants to keep in place)
[21:54] <ochosi> so yeah, i guess as long as xfce doesn't go CSD all over, you'll have to live with what we have atm
[21:54] <ochosi> the situation even won't change when xfwm4 is ported to gtk3
[21:54] <ochosi> simply because the theming isn't done in CSS and nothing is drawn by Gtk
[21:55] <andrzejr> we could add css to all default xfwm themes. I assume the only thing left to do is to include it in a gtk theme.
[21:55] <ochosi> that was my suggestion to olivier, but he felt it was too hacky
[21:55] <ochosi> there is no easy way to override the current theme with a css portion afaik
[21:56] <ochosi> i mean: not within the app but from the outside (e.g. coming from xfsettingsd)
[21:56] <andrzejr> we could have a link xfwm4.css or similar pointing to the current theme,
[21:57] <ochosi> oh also: if you want to change more than just the wm icons, that css file would be fairly long
[21:57] <ochosi> you'd have to theme the whole headerbar and somehow ensure it'd still be consistent with *any given gtk theme*
[21:58] <andrzejr> how does xfsettingsd currently change the gtk theme? We could use the same method.
[21:59] <ochosi>  changes an xsetting afaik
[21:59] <ochosi> this one: /Net/ThemeName
[21:59] <andrzejr> That's the point. It doesn't have to be consistent with any gtk theme, only with xfwm themes.
[22:00] <ochosi> it sure does. headerbars/CSD contains Gtk widgets like buttons, comboboxes, entries etc
[22:00] <ochosi> you can't make those look like crap or unreadable with the CSS you're loading
[22:01] <ochosi> so yeah, long story short: appearance settings isn't the solution cause it changes an xsetting that Gtk+ listens to and then changes the theme
[22:01] <ochosi> maybe it can be done manually too, one would have to read the Gtk+ source code though to know for sure
[22:01] <andrzejr> since it is an Xfwm-specific mechanism we could add our own xsettings entry.
[22:01] <ochosi> (and yeah, the easy way is putting a file in ~/.config/gtk-3.0)
[22:02] <ochosi> anyhoo, the other thing is that i'm not really sure it's worth it...
[22:02] <ochosi> it's a lot of hassle and hackiness for dubious outcome
[22:02] <ochosi> the ideal situation is that you use a gtk and xfwm4 theme that match
[22:04] <andrzejr> The last resort solution is indeed making a new theme. A naive question, would you mind adding more contrast to Greybird's window decorations an widening the borders to >=4px?
[22:05] <ochosi> this isn't the kind of change i take lightly tbh
[22:05] <ochosi> i haven't heard many complaints about the contrast in a very long time
[22:06] <ochosi> (or any to be exact)
[22:06] <ochosi> wrt xfwm4 decoration borders, yeah, i've been working on a wider version
[22:06] <andrzejr> I know it is in "usability vs prettiness" territory but many users would appreciate such changes, even if as a variant.
[22:06] <ochosi> i personally dont like it and i'm not sure why anyone would need it, but sure... :)
[22:06] <ochosi> (yeah, yeah, the usual complaint is about resizing windows but there are so many other ways to resize windows...)
[22:07] <ochosi> so yeah, the a11y variant is planned but still a few steps away
[22:07] <knome> oops, that blew my idle cover :O
[22:07] <knome> :P
[22:07] <ochosi> i currently just dont have the time to work with it very much
[22:07] <ochosi> hehe indeed :p
[22:08] <knome> i was just going to step out of the misty closet anyway
[22:08] <andrzejr> I agree with this complaint. Resizing the windows is *the* purpose of window borders. Otherwise why include them at all.
[22:08] <knome> andrzejr, i don't agree, the purpose of the window borders is to create structure for the data on the screen ;)
[22:10] <ochosi> andrzejr: that's ok, then make xfwm4 use the shadow of the window as its resize area (like CSD do) ;)
[22:10] <knome> ochosi, i'd like you to check out something
[22:10] <knome> ochosi, bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs
[22:10] <knome> ochosi, in branch root: make clean style html
[22:11] <knome> err
[22:11] <knome> ochosi, make startpage html <- should be enough and correct
[22:11] <knome> ochosi, then see build/index.html
[22:11] <andrzejr> fair point. but afaik that wouldn't work without compositing enabled.
[22:11] <knome> andrzejr, of course not, because there is no shadow then
[22:12] <knome> but then again you could use another xfwm theme (for example, the greybird a11y version, hopefully in the near future)
[22:14] <andrzejr> I hope the a11y version will not go overboard with a11y. There is nothing wrong with Gtk widgets theming, just the wm part.
[22:14] <knome> no, it's not supposed to be high contrast
[22:15] <knome> ochosi, did you pick that up? :)
[22:15] <ochosi> andrzejr: you can try the xfwm4-a11y branch of greybird if you want, but it's still very much WIP
[22:16] <knome> andrzejr, and if you have specific wishes/suggestions, at least i don't care if you submit them as issues in github
[22:16] <andrzejr> oh, I didn't know you've got something already.
[22:16] <knome> something... not a lot
[22:18] <andrzejr> well, my wish is to make the CSD fad go away (not just for visual inconsistency, I consider it a massive step back in terms of usability too). But I guess that a WONTFIX.
[22:19] <knome> that's not something for greybird anyway
[22:21] <andrzejr> sure, just ranting
[22:21] <ochosi> :>
[22:21] <knome> ;)
[22:21] <knome> ochosi, hellooooo?
[22:21] <ochosi> knome: i'm pulling...
[22:21] <knome> thanks :P
[22:22] <ochosi> i'm using my phone with tethering,no interwebs in new flat yet...
[22:22] <knome> awwh
[22:22] <ochosi> so yeah, that sort of thing takes time
[22:22] <ochosi> plus LP is slow
[22:22] <knome> i could have pushed stuff in the webs for you then
[22:22] <knome> well, pulling the docs branch is always slow
[22:22] <knome> when you do it with no previous data
[22:23] <knome> i'll race you, let's see if i'm ready first
[22:23] <ochosi> ok done
[22:23] <knome> aha
[22:23] <knome> you win
[22:23] <knome> now do: make startpage html
[22:24] <knome> and forget my sillyness about style and clean before ;)
[22:24] <ochosi> much nicer look than the current docs
[22:24] <knome> heh
[22:24] <knome> well
[22:24] <ochosi> looks more like the website ;)
[22:24] <knome> it's a slight refresh
[22:24] <knome> yeah, that's the point
[22:24] <ochosi> with the shadows and colors
[22:24] <knome> also click to the docs
[22:24] <knome> should have a similar style
[22:25] <knome> so if you're happy with that, then good
[22:25] <ochosi> yup, +1 from me
[22:25] <knome> just wanted another pair of eyes
[22:25] <ochosi> why does the TOC have to have that dark bar on the left?
[22:26] <knome> if you go to a chapter page, you'll notice why
[22:26] <knome> (it would mix in too easily with the content)
[22:26] <ochosi> and why is it that hyperlinks are blue *and* underlined?
[22:26] <knome> and keeping it on the frontpage as well makes stuff consistent
[22:26] <ochosi> right
[22:27] <knome> i think just changing the color is meh with short paragraphs
[22:27] <knome> eg, see http://docs.xubuntu.org/1410/guide-default-apps.html#default-graphics
[22:27] <knome> it would look weird with no underlines
[22:27] <knome> and it's added clarity
[22:27] <knome> which is never bad in a documentation imo
[22:28] <knome> there are also other blue things, eg. http://docs.xubuntu.org/1410/media-apps.html#media-music-listen
[22:28] <knome> sure, they are different blues, but if people see elliptic circles..
[22:28] <knome> O;)
[22:29] <ochosi> hah
[22:29] <ochosi> sad excuses!
[22:29] <knome> :D
[22:29] <ochosi> :D
[22:29] <knome> no, i stand by the style
[22:29] <knome> i think it's good
[22:29] <knome> it works well with the content we have there
[22:29] <ochosi> anyway, nice refresh
[22:29] <knome> maybe we should add the underlines for the website as well ;)
[22:30] <knome> (no, not really, that's a different beast)
[22:30] <knome> and thanks
[22:30] <ochosi> the home icon is a bit awkward though tbh, why is it not blue like the navigation arrows?
[22:31]  * ochosi feels nitpicky
[22:31] <knome> because != https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68ugkg9RePc
[22:33] <ochosi> ouch
[22:33] <ochosi> good i have my laptop muted by default
[22:33] <knome> so, no blue house and no blue window
[22:33] <knome> just fifty shades of grey
[22:33] <knome> :P
[22:33] <ochosi> :D
[22:34] <ochosi> anyhoo, gotta get some sleep
[22:34] <knome> well, the real answer:
[22:34] <knome> i tried that when i did those icons, and it looked weird with all blue
[22:34] <knome> and nighty :)
[22:34] <ochosi> that's ok :)
[22:34] <knome> (and good luck with the "sleep" part)
[22:34] <ochosi> heh, thanks