[15:38] <dsmythies> There is supposed to be a doc team meeting over in #ubuntu-meeting-2 in 20 minutes. However the room is double booked, so we will have the meeting here instead.
[16:00] <dsmythies>   #startmeeting Ubuntu Docs
[16:01] <dsmythies>   #chair dsmythies GunnarHj
[16:01] <GunnarHj> Hi there!
[16:01] <dsmythies> Hi Gunnar, the meeting stuff doesn't seem to be working, but I see the bots.
[16:02] <dsmythies> we never updated the agenda.
[16:03] <GunnarHj> Ok. ( Personally I'm not too sad about the missing bot stuff. ;) )
[16:03] <dsmythies> Does anybody have anything they want to bring up for this doc team meeting.
[16:04] <pmatulis> we should probably clear out old items from the agenda
[16:04] <GunnarHj> Maybe we should as who are here for the meeting?
[16:04] <GunnarHj> as -> ask
[16:05] <dsmythies> I wanted to bring up the recurring "Continued maintenance of the UbuntuHashes wiki page" item.
[16:05] <dsmythies> Who is here for the meeting? Doug, Gunnar, Peter. Who else?
[16:07] <dsmythies> Also, we have a conflict with #ubuntu-meeting-2. There is anothe meeting there on an every two weeks timeline, which sometimes conflicts with our 1st Tuesday of the month timeline.
[16:08] <pmatulis> i am much more free than i was in the past
[16:08] <pmatulis> i would be good with any time other than wed 9-11 EST
[16:09] <GunnarHj> I'm flexible too wrt the meeting time.
[16:09] <dsmythies> Peter: Would moving the meeting back to 17:00 UTC work for you? (Still Tuesday).
[16:10] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Will the conflicting meeting end within an hour?
[16:10] <dsmythies> I think it has been, the last two times. I'll watch today.
[16:11] <GunnarHj> Seems to be the tech board.
[16:11] <GunnarHj> Back to 17 UTC is fine for me.
[16:11] <pmatulis> ok
[16:14] <dsmythies> Gunnar, Peter, seems nobody else is here for doc team meeting, so lets just terminate. Us 3 talk via e-mail and / or IRC anyhow.
[16:14] <pmatulis> why not talk now? since we're here
[16:16] <GunnarHj> I agree with pmatulis. Let's take this opportunity to talk about the current stuff.
[16:16] <pmatulis> re hashes wiki, i'm not sure how we can do anything about it one way or another. can't anyone edit it? if it's locked down, i've been clear on the m/l. my vote is to get rid of it
[16:17] <dsmythies> pmatulis: My vote is to replace it with the page we were working on. There is the person that has volenteered to maintain it, but he always has to be reminded.
[16:18] <dsmythies> No, edit access is restricted.
[16:18] <dsmythies> ... as it should be.
[16:18] <GunnarHj> Yeah, we should go back to the plan we had before he volunteered.
[16:19] <pmatulis> it would be great to get the number of hits on that page. i can ask the admin people. if it's a popular page then it makes sense to keep it, in some form anyway
[16:19] <GunnarHj> the release team won't be interested enough to get involved, since several of them think the page is redundant.
[16:20] <dsmythies> The issue always becomes HTTPs verses HTTP, however that is not our issue, and the people whose issue it is have already said they will not do it (an HTTPS page).
[16:21] <GunnarHj> No, pmatulis, the problem is more complex. The page's popularity isn't a good base for decision.
[16:21] <pmatulis> GunnarHj: how so? briefly :)
[16:22] <GunnarHj> Maintaining it would be a natural task for the release team. They are not interested, since the information is available elsewhere.
[16:23] <dsmythies> hits are available. seems to average about 500 hits per day.
[16:23] <GunnarHj> So let's just replace it with a page which points to the information.
[16:23] <dsmythies> I agree, repleace it with that page we were working on.
[16:24] <dsmythies> Note: Hits can be misleading due to bots.
[16:25] <dsmythies> This page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashesProposed
[16:25] <pmatulis> dsmythies: where to see hits?
[16:25] <dsmythies> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes?action=info&hitcounts=1
[16:25] <pmatulis> dsmythies: yes, perfect, i agree with the proposed page
[16:26] <GunnarHj> Then let's make a final decision. :)
[16:27] <pmatulis> dsmythies: ok nice
[16:27]  * pmatulis votes +1 for proposed page
[16:27] <dsmythies> I move that we ask someone with access rights to replace the hashes page with the proposed one.
[16:28] <GunnarHj> +1
[16:28]  * pmatulis seconds dsmythies proposal
[16:28] <dsmythies> And vote for the proposal (I don't know how to do it the way Peter did.)
[16:28] <pmatulis> dsmythies: start a sentence with /me
[16:29] <dsmythies> O.K. Motion carried. I'll do the follow up.
[16:30] <GunnarHj> Can we talk abot dholbach's list message after the CC meeting with the docs team?
[16:30] <dsmythies> Peter: I was proposing that if people are interested in a spring at the open help thing, they could try to do as many serverguide bug reports as possible, before we have to split it into 14.04 and trunk.
[16:30] <dsmythies> Gunnar: go first.
[16:31] <dsmythies> spring => sprint
[16:31] <dsmythies> Gunnar: Give me a sec to re-read it.
[16:32] <GunnarHj> Ok. I think the discussion about the lack of manpower and dholback's initiative deserve to be followed up somehow.
[16:32] <pmatulis> yeah, can we get a link to that post?
[16:32] <GunnarHj> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2015-August/019503.html
[16:32] <pmatulis> thank you GunnarHj
[16:34] <dsmythies> Gunnar: I agree. A good example, was for a cycle where we did have good contribution. We were very active on IRC and e-mail and even had a status task list speadsheet on google. It worked very well.
[16:34] <dsmythies> ...In the end though, there were still only a few deeply involved.
[16:35] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I think that was the case right before I got involved. Then the activity dropped. :(
[16:35] <dsmythies> Yes, and it was Kevin Goodby doing a ton of work on the desktop guide that cycle
[16:36] <GunnarHj> Right. (And before him jbicha)
[16:37] <GunnarHj> Possibly the situation is better wrt the serve guide. As regards the desktop guide I smell a crisis, especially when Unity 8 get started.
[16:37] <pmatulis> what does daniel mean by 'Ubuntu Community Q&A'?
[16:37] <dsmythies> yes, but jeremy, and somewhat Matt, tended to work in isolation. For example, I had not idea that the serverguide was being changed to a new theme. It just happened, and then we suffered side effects for years afterwards.
[16:38] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: That's not the right way, of course...
[16:39] <GunnarHj> pmatulis: Possibly the teams working with quality and bugs.
[16:39] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I think, but am not sure, that isolation occured due to overload. I think they just charged ahead and did stuff.
[16:40] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Agreed.
[16:40] <dsmythies> I think there is a Q & A session every week or two or something. I'll try to find it.
[16:42] <dsmythies> I think he was referring to: https://daniel.holba.ch/blog/2015/08/ubuntu-community-qa/
[16:43] <GunnarHj> Latest log: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/09/01/%23ubuntu-on-air.html
[16:45] <pmatulis> a quick scan shows no doc person was there
[16:46] <GunnarHj> True. I wasn't even aware of its existence...
[16:46] <pmatulis> me neither
[16:46] <dsmythies> I wasn't aware either.
[16:48] <GunnarHj> Anyway, I don't think we will be able to solve the problem in this discussion. My intention of bringing it up was just to emphasize that we should respond properly somehow. I for one need some more time to think it over.
[16:49] <dsmythies> I have been thinking also.
[16:49] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: And? ;)
[16:51] <dsmythies> Well, and as the past example shows, when we have some sort of critical mass and desire to get something done, it just works, without any specific times. In that past example, the string freeze deadline created the sense of urgency.
[16:52] <dsmythies> also...
[16:52] <dsmythies> at the time, Liz was somewhat active in a leadership role, which helped a lot (my opinion).
[16:54] <GunnarHj> So in a sense you say that I'm worrying unnecessarily. Maybe you have a point...
[16:56] <dsmythies> The valid worry is the continuing lack of contributors. Isn't it?
[16:57] <GunnarHj> Probably. I think the situation would improve greatly if we could recruit someone who stepped up and assumed the desktop driver role.
[16:57] <dsmythies> by the way, the meeting in meeting-2 ended at 17 after.
[16:58] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Yes, a desktop leader driver is needed. I wonder when Kevin is coming back?
[16:58] <pmatulis> maybe we're being too nice
[16:59] <dsmythies> peter: Go on.
[16:59] <GunnarHj> pmatulis: How?
[16:59] <pmatulis> i find there is a disproportionate number of critics compared to the number of people who actually work on the docs. i see this a lot on the m/l. everyone has an opinion and things go nowhere but we continue to strive for a high degree of democracy
[17:00] <pmatulis> we're such a small group. maybe we *should* do what doug said mat and jeremy did
[17:01] <GunnarHj> You mean just do things rather than talking about it? I agree completely. (Tend to do so already personally.)
[17:01] <pmatulis> and perhaps we need more of a guerilla marketing approach to get people onboard. like sticking our necks out and offering to do impromptu hands-on tutorials on how to contribute or establishing a lightweight mentor program
[17:02] <pmatulis> currently we depend on updating our wiki doc page hoping people will just appear
[17:03] <GunnarHj> I like the mentor program idea.
[17:03] <pmatulis> it's good to have that page updated but we shouldn't hope for much
[17:04] <GunnarHj> Explicitly offering mentorship to people who want to get on board might be a very good thing.
[17:04] <pmatulis> sending out general emails doesn't work well either. one guerilla approach might be to "nab" someone who has filed a bug or a newcomer who has done a little more
[17:05] <dsmythies> Ted is a good example. We stepped in and helped when he got stuck woth his first serverguide merge proposals.
[17:06] <GunnarHj> Hannie is another example (has been involved in the manual previously)
[17:07] <dsmythies> I am not sure how to conclude this dicussion, but I have to move on to some other things now.
[17:08] <GunnarHj> I don't think we need to conclude it. Some good thoughts were mentioned. Thanks! Let's keep thinking about it.
[17:08] <dsmythies> I will keep thinking about it.
[17:08] <GunnarHj> A brief report about the desktop guide - there are two things in my mind:
[17:09] <GunnarHj> * Ask bregma about reviving the "What's new" page
[17:09] <GunnarHj> * Add something about fcitx to the keyboard-layouts page
[17:09] <GunnarHj> I have no other items for the meeting.
[17:10] <dsmythies> Oh yes, string freeze is soon.
[17:10] <GunnarHj> yep
[17:10]  * dsmythies - afk for about 20 minutes
[17:11] <GunnarHj> Ok. I'll keep connected to this room.
[17:11] <pmatulis> btw, i'm not sure if i mentioned this to the team but i've recently moved out of the canonical support team to the canonical docs team :)
[17:11] <pmatulis> in the last few months i've been steadily closing juju doc bugs. since juju docs are linked from help.u.c you can say i've contributing quite a lot to server docs ;)
[17:12] <GunnarHj> pmatulis: That was news to me. Thanks.
[17:14] <pmatulis> GunnarHj: juju docs uses github and not launchpad so i am now fairly acquainted with github web site and git CLI
[17:15] <pmatulis> strangely, juju itself uses launchpad
[17:17] <GunnarHj> Ok. I have never taken the time to learn git. Sometimes when dealing with upstream patches it would have been useful to master.
[17:30] <dsmythies> pmatulis: News to me also. Thanks for the update.
[17:31] <dsmythies> git: yes I use git almost every day now, as I pretty much only use the kernel.org kernel,, but with the Ubuntu kernel config file.
[17:32] <pmatulis> dsmythies: why do you do that?
[17:35] <dsmythies> pmatulis: I tend to work upstream for kernel stuff and therefore prefer to work on a compatible kernel. I have been working for a longtime now on the intel_pstate driver.
[17:36] <pmatulis> dsmythies: you are doing code work for that driver you mean?
[17:39] <dsmythies> pamtulis: I have been working on a patch set, yes. However, I don't know if it will ever be included. I first submitted it on 2105.04.11. In my opinion, there are issue with the driver in its current form.
[17:39] <pmatulis> dsmythies: i had no idea. impressive!
[17:40] <GunnarHj> I knew about it. Agree with pmatulis on impressive. :)
[17:40] <GunnarHj> I'd need to do some off keyboard stuff. Can we consider the meeting be ended?
[17:41] <dsmythies> Yes. Ended.
[17:41] <GunnarHj> Ok. See you guys!
[17:41] <pmatulis> bye GunnarHj, dsmythies