/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/09/01/#ubuntu-touch.txt

naveeni want to install ubuntu touch on xolo q300000:06
Talustus^^00:10
k1lnaveen: if no one did a port already for it you need to make one for that device. but that needs some skills00:13
k1lPorting (advanced) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Porting00:13
dobey!devices | naveen00:54
ubot5naveen: You can find the full list of devices, official images, community images, and works in progress at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices00:54
dobey!patience | naveen00:55
ubot5naveen: Don't feel ignored and repeat your question quickly; if nobody knows your answer, nobody will answer you. While you wait, try searching https://help.ubuntu.com or http://ubuntuforums.org or http://askubuntu.com/00:55
naveenthank you ubot504:13
zsombi_bfiller: kenvandine: if the statesaver doesn't get the quit signal, it won't wipe out the state database, so next time it will see it and restore it04:49
zsombi_kenvandine: the one question is whether your qtubuntu change does trigger the quit signal or not...04:51
zsombi_sorry, gerry's change :)04:51
dholbachgood morning06:41
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guest42315hi all, any idea how to handle gamepad from qml?07:52
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aavitguest42315: haven't tried it myself but this may be interesting to you: http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/development/2015-May/021380.html08:18
* mcphail gently hums "In the Ghetto" and notes that his bq is still stuck on OTA-508:19
ogra_mcphail, wed. was the estimated release day i thought08:21
mcphailogra_: good to know. I'd heard "start of the week"08:22
* mcphail loves an OTA08:22
guest42315thanks aavit08:23
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* popey wonders if he'll get his OTA before mcphail 08:44
ogra_well, you know "the guy" ... thats unfair08:44
mcphailpopey: that would be favouritism08:44
jgdxi'm living on the edge… rc proposed08:45
mcphailpopey: plus, you've got about 100 Ubuntu phones. You'll be blocking the update server for ages08:45
* mcphail imagines the Ubuntu-phone update server is powered by a hamster wheel08:46
popeyhah08:47
popeyi have _one_ retail bq phone08:47
* Stanley00 is currently happy with rc-propose... update almost every day :P08:47
mcphailStanley00: my mother used to tell me "You'd get bored with Christmas if it happened every day" :)08:54
Stanley00mcphail: yeah... but curently, waiting a month for new features is so slow for me...08:59
mcphailStanley00: 6 week these days. 7 If you have a bq :(09:00
CaptainHeavyHey everyone.  Sorry if this has been answered before but I can't find any official docs detailing an answer online.  I've just bough a Meizu MX4 with Ubuntu Touch and I'm looking to disable the automatic brightness dim feature, is this possible?09:00
CaptainHeavyI've tried the answer here but no joy: http://askubuntu.com/questions/628345/how-to-disable-ubuntu-phone-auto-dim-function09:01
CaptainHeavyOn another note too, I take it that issuing "remount -o remount,rw /" is a bad idea for Ubuntu Touch due to OTA updates potentially bricking the phone?09:02
mcphailCaptainHeavy: I think "bricking" would be a bit strong. You may need to reflash if soemthing goes wrong09:03
jgdxpete-woods, are the indicator-network integration tests passing locally for you?09:03
CaptainHeavymcphail: fair enough.  Its not encouraged to do the remount though?09:03
mcphailCaptainHeavy: not encouraged, no. But I suspect most people on here do it for some purpose or another09:04
mcphailCaptainHeavy: If you want to install software, though, the preferred option is a chroot09:04
CaptainHeavymcphail: OK, thank you.  I'd seen some people on the net strongly advising against it so thought it best to avoid it entirely!09:04
Stanley00mcphail: oh, that's exactly what I did on my phone, just wonder why there's no link on the web mention about that... :(09:05
mcphailCaptainHeavy: I rewrite my /etc/hosts and add software to /usr/local/bin. Not had a problem yet, but ymmv09:05
CaptainHeavymcphail: sounds sensible, might give that a go if I get desperate :)09:06
CaptainHeavymcphail: I take it there's no official answer on turning off the auto-brightness dim then?09:06
mcphailCaptainHeavy: do you mean the dimming which happens after a minute or so?09:07
CaptainHeavymcphail: that's the one!  Not the auto-lock, to clarify.09:07
svijCaptainHeavy: you can disable auto-brightness on the battery-indicator09:08
CaptainHeavysvij: sorry , didn't mean that type of auto-brightness, I meant the dimming that occurs after 40 seconds of inactivity, not the auto-brightness adjustment enabled by the sensor on the front of the phone.09:09
mcphailCaptainHeavy: My understanding is that is fixed, but apps such as video players will have to specifically request not to dim. I may be wrong, though09:09
svijCaptainHeavy: oh right09:09
CaptainHeavymcphail: I was considering getting involved in developing the OS since I've noticed a couple of issues and am a programmer.  I've read that someone has made a pull request for a fix but I don't think its been merged yet.09:10
CaptainHeavymcphail: a fix for the auto-brightness dim, that is.09:10
mcphailCaptainHeavy: aah. I thought it had been fixed in one of the -devel channels09:11
CaptainHeavymcphail: possibly, haven't had a look through the channels and code as of yet, only just got back to work today after the UK bank holiday (I got the phone last Wednesday for my birthday and had some time off too)09:11
mcphailCaptainHeavy: if you are a programmer, I think you'll like the phone. It is very hackable09:12
mcphailCaptainHeavy: and I'm sure the Ubuntu chaps/chapesses would appreciate all the help you can give09:13
CaptainHeavymcphail: Excellent, that's kind of what I expected from Ubuntu Touch :)  The scopes are nice but it'd be great if you could specify where content is pulled from in a more user-fiendly way.09:13
mcphailCaptainHeavy: I'm still not sure about scopes, tbh.09:14
CaptainHeavymcphail: I'll have to make myself known then, I've not done any dev. work with Ubuntu but the phone has spurred me on.  Need to stop being so lazy about getting involved09:14
mcphailCaptainHeavy: brilliant!09:15
CaptainHeavymcphail: I'm glad someone else has said that, I've shifted the app page so that its the first Scope I see since the "Today" Scrope sometimes hangs up and causes the phone to become inactive if there's no signal09:15
CaptainHeavymcphail: sorry, App scope09:15
mcphailCaptainHeavy: me too09:16
CaptainHeavymcphail: It'd be nice if they could work like super RSS feeds I guess, that's what I meant by being able to edit where Scope content comes from09:16
mcphailCaptainHeavy: I think the scopes suffer from being rather stateless, as well. Annoying when they always feel the need to refresh, and often fail09:17
CaptainHeavymcphail: aye, I imagine they use a significant amount of data too and some people may get a little peeved if their data costs increase due to them.  Seems like a "safer" solution to have the App Scope as the primary scope in that case.09:18
mcphailCaptainHeavy: I'm not a social media user, so a "Today" scopw hich could tell me the day, date, calendar apts and weather should only need to refresh about 2--4 times/day09:20
mcphailCaptainHeavy: just now, it seems to refresh every time I switch to it09:20
pete-woodsjgdx: they always have done before your current MR at least09:20
CaptainHeavymcphail: I've noticed that too, think you're right about it09:21
pete-woodsjgdx: unlike the indicator itself, the indicator-network testing is a thing of beauty09:21
mcphailCaptainHeavy: The platform needs more apps, In particular, it needs more "proper" apps which keep state etc, rather than dumb-type webapps09:24
mcphailCaptainHeavy: so any contributions would be appreciated09:24
CaptainHeavymcphail: yeah, the webapps seem easy to make I guess09:25
mcphailCaptainHeavy: perhaps a little too easy :)09:25
CaptainHeavymcphail: Ideally, I'd like to get started on a browser app since the packaged browser seems a little clunky in places.  Plus, I use Google Chrome so it'd be nice to have the settings sync on the phone :)09:26
CaptainHeavymcphail: That and I used to program for the web09:26
mcphailCaptainHeavy: I have no problem with decent html5 apps, but hate apps which are just a frame around a webpage09:27
CaptainHeavymcphail: apologies if this question sounds ignorant but, are you part of the core dev team?09:27
mcphailCaptainHeavy: not in any way! I have no connection to Ubuntu or Canonical09:27
mcphailCaptainHeavy: but lots of the team do lurk here and in #ubuntu-app-devel09:28
CaptainHeavymcphail: Yeah, its just added layers that seem useless when you could just access the webpage through the browser.09:28
CaptainHeavymcphail: cool, I'll hang out on those groups a little and see what's being discussed09:28
mcphailCaptainHeavy: popey is the de facto interface to the core devs09:28
CaptainHeavymcphail: excellent, thank you09:29
mcphailCaptainHeavy: good luck. I'm off to a meeting but good to talk to you09:29
CaptainHeavymcphail: thank you and same to you too :)09:30
popeyhah09:33
popeythanks mcphail :)09:33
mcphailpopey: you can't escape your dedstiny09:34
* mcphail can't escape typos on this keyboard09:34
popey:)09:35
* popey runs away09:36
CaptainHeavypopey: haha, don't worry, I don't bit!09:36
CaptainHeavy*bite09:36
CaptainHeavypopey: nice to see a core dev on here, by the way!09:38
jgdxpete-woods, okay, I'm getting test failures on trunk. Anything I need to do?09:55
jgdxpete-woods, it also fails horribly if the system lang is any other than english.09:58
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m0n5t3rhm, SMS notifications get displayed while the phone is locked... this ain't good12:21
ogra_m0n5t3r, you can turn that off in the privacy settings12:28
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kenvandinezsombi_, ah, so quit should be clearing it?  maybe that fix didn't completely fix it12:58
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kenvandinejgdx, what do you make of this? https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/generic-deb-autopilot-runner-vivid-mako/3204/testReport/junit/ubuntu_system_settings.tests.test_cellular/DualSimCellularTestCase/test_roaming_switch/13:04
kenvandinejgdx, perhaps that was caused by that same problem where the page doesn't seem to get the data from ofono?13:04
kenvandineand doesn't display13:05
jgdxkenvandine, yeh, seen that a couple of times, but only together with the keyboard failure.13:06
jgdxif it's in the roaming tests, that's no longer keyboard related13:06
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jgdxi don't have any suggestions at this point other than creating a proper dbusmock template13:07
kenvandineperhaps13:07
kenvandinebut13:07
kenvandinedidn't someone see that page not load in the wild?13:08
kenvandinenot just in tests?13:08
kenvandinei think since the sim is null there, it's likely the same problem13:08
m0n5t3rogra_: on the stable channel? the only thing that seems connected to this is "stats on welcome screen", but it's supposed to be about the activity circle thing, not notifications13:08
kenvandinejgdx, also... one of seb's string changes broke a test... i missed it because having failing tests was the norm :(13:09
jgdxkenvandine, when bill saw that the indicator was a goner as well, IIRC13:09
kenvandineyeah, i think that's a sign of deeper problems13:10
kenvandinebut i think there's a real problem there13:10
kenvandinenot sure if we can handle it in settings13:10
kenvandinei think the only fix was a reboot13:10
kenvandineso yeah, maybe mocking that better would be the right thing13:10
ogra_m0n5t3r, yes, it is there since day one iirc ... under the locking options13:11
m0n5t3ryup, disabled it and "no data sources available", notifications are stil accessible (for the record, "your login code is 123456" will display just fine in that space)13:11
m0n5t3rmkay, found it13:11
m0n5t3rthanks13:12
Elleobfiller: heya, do you remember what sites you tried download vcf files from that didn't get detected and where you saw the browser showing up as a destination in the content-hub?13:12
ogra_m0n5t3r, i dont mesan the toplevel page :)13:12
ogra_ah13:12
ogra_:)13:12
jgdxkenvandine, have you looked at the syslog? Seeing http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/12245327/13:12
kenvandinejgdx, ugh... good catch13:13
kenvandinejgdx, oh... Elleo is back, did you tell him about the keyboard failures?13:13
kenvandineElleo, welcome back btw :)13:13
jgdxkenvandine, no, I just assumed my many pings would be in a log somewhere :p13:13
Elleokenvandine: I saw the bug jgdx filed, haven't tried to reproduce it yet though13:14
jgdxand didn't want to add additionals13:14
kenvandineah great, he filed a bug13:14
jgdxElleo, did you have a good time off? :)13:14
Elleojgdx: yeah, was really good; was camping up at the edinburgh fringe13:14
kenvandinenice13:14
jgdxabeato, hey, do you have any rough idea why this [1] would happen during system settings test runs on mako? [1] http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/12245327/13:14
m0n5t3rogra_: btw, you were saying I should run extra stuff in a separate lxc container... couldn't for the life of me make it work (it just won't start), but tor starts just fine from a chroot, I'll just have to find a way to make it start at boot13:14
jgdxElleo, you're braver then I am! Camping? Tents?13:15
kenvandineElleo, we've been seeing it in CI, and jgdx reproduced it running the ubuntu-keyboard autopilot tests as well13:15
kenvandinejgdx, i'm going camping this weekend :)13:15
Elleojgdx: yeah, although unfortunately the campsite was out near the airport so was a bit noisey in the mornings ;)13:15
abeatojgdx, seems like an ofono crash, do you see crash files?13:15
kenvandineElleo, that doesn't seem like nature :)13:15
jgdxkenvandine, but you have to, gat kids13:16
kenvandineindeed13:16
Elleokenvandine: I wasn't there for nature, I was there for comedy ;)13:16
jgdxabeato, no crash files13:16
kenvandinehaha13:16
jgdxElleo, festival?13:16
kenvandinethat's cool13:16
Elleojgdx: yeah, the edinburgh fringe is one of the world's biggest theatre, comedy, arts, music, etc. festivals; runs for a whole month13:16
bfillerElleo: let me find it13:16
Elleomanaged to squeeze in 37 different shows while I was up there13:17
jgdxElleo, nice13:17
Elleobfiller: thanks13:17
kenvandinewow13:17
abeatojgdx, can you reproduce?13:18
abeatojgdx, syslog would help too13:18
kenvandineabeato, https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/generic-deb-autopilot-runner-vivid-mako/3204/13:19
kenvandineabeato, we've seen it in CI from time to time, not reliably13:19
kenvandineabeato, but some users have seen it on their devices13:19
kenvandineand when it happens i think the network indicator goes away too13:19
kenvandineabeato, but we don't really know how to reproduce it13:20
ogra_m0n5t3r, you should be able to create an upstart session job for the phablet user13:20
kenvandineabeato, of course the CI tests are on mako, and i think bfiller saw it on arale13:20
kenvandineso not just one type of device13:20
jgdxkenvandine, bfiller's could be unrelated13:20
kenvandineperhaps13:20
jgdxif this is new13:20
kenvandinei think the symptom is the same, just a different test triggered it13:21
bfillerjgdx: which problem you guys talkinga bout?13:21
kenvandinethere were other tests that have failed where sim == null13:21
ogra_m0n5t3r, though not sure how you can handle the root requirements for something like chroot or lxc13:21
jgdxbfiller, spinning cellular panel13:21
abeatokenvandine, where is the link to the syslog in that page?13:21
kenvandinehttps://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/generic-deb-autopilot-runner-vivid-mako/3204/artifact/clientlogs/ubuntu_system_settings/syslog13:21
abeatokenvandine, great, thanks13:22
jgdxkenvandine, but when I reprod it on mako, it happened inside the cellular panel13:22
jgdxi.e. I got a UI, not the stuck spinner13:22
kenvandinejgdx, yeah... but i suspect the cause might be the same13:22
kenvandinebasically ofono losing it's mind13:22
kenvandinemaking sim = null13:22
kenvandineit's a hunch anyway13:22
kenvandineso we see at least one modem, display the page13:23
kenvandinethem sim changes to null13:23
kenvandineand boom13:23
m0n5t3rogra_: I need root for transparent proxy firewall rules anyway, the global proxy thing doesn't work on mobile (/system/proxy/socks in dconf)13:23
abeatokenvandine, but which kind of tests are you running?13:23
m0n5t3rright now it's terminal, start thing with sudo13:24
kenvandineabeato, the test that failed in this case was switching roaming in the cellular panel13:24
kenvandineabeato, we haven't seen this often... but from time to time we see failures in cellular that has a similar symptom13:25
abeatokenvandine, jgdx ofono is exiting due to an assert, radio is suddenly switching to off13:26
kenvandineweird that ofono restarts without a crash though13:26
abeatoit is an internal assert13:26
kenvandineah13:26
abeatoso I guess that's the reason13:26
kenvandineso no crash13:26
abeatog_assert()13:26
abeato"radio self-powered off!" is the smoking gun13:27
bfillerElleo: sample vcard was from here: http://www.phpclasses.org/browse/file/5543.html13:27
jgdxabeato, why would that happen?13:27
abeatokenvandine, could you create a bug with the details?13:27
abeatono idea13:27
kenvandineabeato, sure13:27
dobeyugh, asserts in production code13:27
abeatokenvandine, you mean switching roaming data to on?13:27
kenvandineon or off, not sure off hand13:28
kenvandinebut it doesn't get that far13:28
m0n5t3rogra_: btw, the phone failing to boot after flashing thing resolved itself after I put in an SD card (for some reason the install script crashed before copying system files - I could get an adb shell into the recovery and look at some log in /tmp and it was complaining about a missing signature or keyring, and then it tried to mount the SD card and copy logs)13:28
kenvandineit never actually got the state13:28
m0n5t3ralso, whoever thought it is a good idea to set the kernel serial baud rate to 921600 is nuts13:28
abeatohmm, ok13:29
kenvandinei think it blew up while the page was loading13:29
abeatothis is probably mako-specific13:29
kenvandineok, so maybe not the same thing bfiller saw13:30
abeatoyep13:30
kenvandine2015-09-01 01:19:21,100 - WARNING - file:///usr/share/ubuntu/settings/system/qml-plugins/cellular/Components/MultiSim.qml:123: TypeError: Cannot read property 'radioSettings' of null13:30
kenvandinewe get stuff like that while the page loads13:30
Elleobfiller: thanks, my test with a VCF file worked fine, looks like the issue is that the server here is sending the mime-type as 'application/octet-stream', so we probably need to use the file extension as a fallback when getting ambigious mimetypes like that13:31
kenvandinenone of the properties were set13:31
* kenvandine files bug, thanks13:31
Elleobfiller: as at the moment we only use the file extension if we don't get a mimetype at all13:31
bfillerElleo: yes makes sense, we should use extension as fall back13:32
abeatoseems like some weird condition under automatic testing, maybe timing issues13:32
kenvandineabeato, could it have something to do with rfkill?13:32
abeatokenvandine, don't know, does the test set/unset flight mode?13:33
kenvandineno, but there are other tests that do13:33
kenvandinemaybe that causes a problem before we get to this test13:33
abeatonot impossible13:34
kenvandinealthough i don't recall ever seeing flight mode tests fail13:34
kenvandinejgdx, do you know if we mock urfkill?13:34
abeatook, anyway, please attach the syslog to the bug13:35
kenvandineyeah13:35
abeatothanks13:35
jgdxkenvandine, hm13:35
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jgdxkenvandine, pretty sure we don't13:37
jgdxkenvandine, why is the fm panel talking to rfkill at all?13:38
kenvandinejgdx, i actually am not sure it is, i've never looked at those tests13:39
kenvandinei think it should be doing it via the indicator13:39
jgdxkenvandine, yeah, the connectivity api has a flightMode prop13:40
kenvandinebut the indicator would be calling urfkill13:40
kenvandineFailed to get flight-mode status: The name org.freedesktop.URfkill was not provided by any .service files13:41
kenvandinejgdx, ^^13:41
jgdxkenvandine, that's from the syslog?13:42
kenvandineno13:42
kenvandinethe settings log13:43
kenvandinein the roaming test13:43
kenvandineabeato, jgdx: bug 149099113:44
ubot5bug 1490991 in ofono (Ubuntu) "ofono hitting an assert during settings test" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/149099113:44
jgdxkenvandine, thanks13:44
abeatokenvandine, thx13:44
matv1in my lockscreen info thingy i am getting: 'No data for today (/com/canonical/UserMetrics/Datasource/1)'13:51
matv1never had that before13:51
matv1oh Bq stable channel OTA513:52
matv1known bug?13:52
CaptainHeavyWhat's the deal with the "H" phone network symbol in the taskbar at the top of the display, by the way?14:06
kenvandineCaptainHeavy, that's for hspa14:08
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CaptainHeavykenvandine: fantastic, thank you!  I was concerned that the OS wasn't using 3G since there's a clear 2G indicator when the connection quality drops to it.14:10
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kenvandinezsombi_, i've confirmed that we don't get the aboutToQuit signal when swiping to close15:06
kenvandinegreyback, so bug 1434584 isn't completely fixed, and is causing us state saver problems15:06
ubot5bug 1434584 in QtMir "closing an app by swiping it should graceful quit" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/143458415:06
greybackdednick: ^^ how's that coming?15:07
kenvandineoh, there's more work going on for that?15:07
dednickgreyback: i have to pick up the review comments15:07
greybackkenvandine: there was work done, but then dednick had holidays. He's back now!15:07
kenvandinethe sdk needs to clear the saved state when quit properly, so it only restores state in the case it was killed for oom15:08
kenvandinebut right now it restores state regardless, because of this bug15:08
kenvandinegreyback, so the other work is in qtmir?15:08
greybackok, well dednick's work should resolve it so15:08
greybackkenvandine: yeah15:08
kenvandinecool15:08
kenvandinezsombi_, i'll dupe that other bug then15:09
dednicki've linked the MP, so you can see when the other branch is ready.15:09
dednick*to the bug15:09
kenvandinedednick, thanks!15:09
kenvandinebfiller, ^^ FYI15:10
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studiohi15:25
CaptainHeavywhat's the default setting for the "persist.service.ssh" property on Ubuntu Touch?15:25
ogra_CaptainHeavy, you should use the android-gadget-service to maintain that setting ... by default it is unset15:26
CaptainHeavyogra_: I found out about that after tweaking the setting :(15:26
studiois iptables supported by the bq E4.5/5 and if yes, is snort or suricata also supported?15:27
CaptainHeavyogra_: I'm guessing android_gadget_service will have overwritten the property value if I used it (ags) after setting it myself?15:27
ogra_android-gadget-service has a status command, check yourself ;)15:28
ogra_"android-gadget-service status ssh"15:30
CaptainHeavyogra_: thanks :)15:31
ogra_popey, heh ... http://i.imgur.com/wYr77Gq.png (terminal open with kbd expanded ... screen locks after timeout and i'm greeted with that when turning it on again)15:35
studioonly found this: "https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Specifications/SnappyConfinement" and it talks about "snappy" and "future". so i am a little bit confused about that ...15:37
popeyogra_: that looks like a bug15:38
ogra_popey, a little, yes :)15:38
popeyogra_: not convinced it's the terminal tho15:38
ogra_funny that the same bugs return avery 5 years even if technology changes :)15:39
popey:)15:39
ogra_*every15:39
* ogra_ remembers having "keyboard input goes to terminal" as bug in xscreensaver in 2006 :)15:39
ogra_(when screen locked indeed)15:40
popeystudio: define "supported"?15:40
popeystudio: I mean, iptables command is there, and you can set firewall rules, sure.15:40
popeykenvandine: why does system settings almost _always_ rotate to landscape when my phone is sat flat on my desk?15:41
kenvandinethat would be the shell15:42
kenvandinedon't know why15:42
kenvandinei see it sometimes too15:42
popeyhm15:42
kenvandinenot just settings15:42
popeyi only seem to see it with settings15:42
kenvandinewe don't do anything with orientation15:42
popeymaybe my usage pattern or something15:42
ogra_popey, hmm, the keyboard thing is reliably reproducable for me ... even if i actively lock/unlock the screen15:42
popeyogra_: great! i look forward to the bug report15:42
studiopopey, it is hard to find informations about "Ubuntu Touch" and firewall, iptables, IPS or IDS, therfore i am asking here. I'd prefer to know what my "mobile" -device is doing and how it act.15:43
kenvandinei saw it happen with 211 just this morning15:43
ogra_and the ls i just typed on the locked screen actually gets input into the terminal window ...15:43
ogra_funnily it only executes after unlocking :)15:43
popeyheh15:43
ogra_(since the app is suspended i guess)15:43
popeystudio: okay, well you can use iptables for sure.15:44
ogra_now ... do i file it against terminal or unity815:44
* popey tries to reproduce15:44
popeyuh15:44
popeythat came out wrong15:44
* ogra_ flips coin15:44
ogra_well, you did already reproduce twice ... :P15:44
popeyogra_: [M#•Vhttp://people.canonical.com/~alan/screenshots/device-2015-09-01-164517.png15:45
popeystupid paste15:45
popeyhttp://people.canonical.com/~alan/screenshots/device-2015-09-01-164517.png15:45
ogra_yeah15:45
popeyIMO unity815:46
ogra_well, but additionally the terminal should probably collapse the kbd before suspending15:46
popeystudio: the reason it's hard to find information about Ubuntu phone and those things is because nobody has written on such topics15:46
ogra_(though might be hard since it only gets a dumb SIGSTOP)15:46
studiopopey, ok, iptables is for outgoing (and incoming) traffic, but what about an incoming, for exp. "scan" and what for exp. for an outgoing app. that is not "willed"?15:46
popeystudio: that's a vague question15:47
popeystudio: it's ubuntu, so the same things apply on phone as on desktop in general15:47
popeyogra_: i triggered it with browser too15:47
popeyogra_: so it aint terminal :)15:47
ogra_yeah15:48
popeystudio: we don't block traffic per-app15:49
popeystudio: so apps can do any outbound requests they like if they have the networking apparmor profile15:49
popeystudio: we ship a firewall by default, and it's on, but with no rules set. Feel free to set some if you want.15:50
ogra_popey, bug 149103415:50
ubot5bug 1491034 in unity8 (Ubuntu) "keyboard stays above lockscreen when locking" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/149103415:50
popeyconfirmed15:51
ogra_all flowers for that one go to CaptainHeavy btw :)15:51
popeyheh15:51
ogra_(i wouldnt have tested that without him asking about ssh above )15:51
CaptainHeavyogra_: sorry!15:54
ogra_CaptainHeavy, no, no, thank you !!15:54
studiopopey, so the ufw is the iptables based firewall, right? but this is only port and nat filtering, right?15:55
CaptainHeavyogra_: well, I'm glad I inadvertently uncovered a bug but not for the work that's involved fixing it!15:55
CaptainHeavyogra_: I'm giving poor DanChapman some issues on the #dekko channel too...15:55
popeyheh, excellent15:57
popeystudio: ufw is a tool for managing the firewall. You can find out lots about iptables and ufw online.15:57
CaptainHeavyI was meant to be working on some research today actually...15:57
ogra_CaptainHeavy, awesome :)15:57
ogra_finding bugs on ubuntu phones is also "some research" though ;)15:57
studiobut what about incoming traffic like an portscan? how to detect that?15:57
popeyCaptainHeavy: we welcome people poking at the phone and letting us know about bugs :)15:57
popeystudio: no idea. Not a network expert15:58
popey(and I generally don't care about port scans, when ports are closed)15:58
CaptainHeavyIts a lovely bit of kit, I have to admit.  Ecstatic that I own one and can help with some part of the development process15:58
studiopopey, therfore i asked about snort or suricata on an ubuntu touch device ...15:59
CaptainHeavyogra_: haha, I guess so.  Luckily my place of work is open to "creative tangents"15:59
popeystudio: we don't ship them, so we don't support them.15:59
popeystudio: but you're free to install those kinds of things yourself.16:00
studiopopey, how do you "personally" prevent you and your system from an outside attack or inside trojan?16:02
popeystudio: none of your business :)16:02
popey... is the correct answer, I think :)16:02
studiosecurity do not mean business, or?16:03
ogra_popey, huh ? you mean you wont reveal your defense strategy in a publically logged channel ?16:03
ogra_tsk16:03
ogra_so selfish :P16:03
popeyExactly16:05
popeystudio: no, my point is, you don't tell a robber where you hide your keys.16:05
studiopopey, my problem is, how is the mobile connection on "ubuntu touch" to the internet controlled and by what?16:07
popeystudio: the user controls the connection via network manager16:11
ogra_(like on every non-server *buntu)16:13
studiopopey, the "network-manager" is dump. you also can't remove the network-manager without purging "ubuntu touch"16:13
popeystudio: that's your choice16:13
studiothe nm controlls nothing16:13
popeyit is the high level control of connected / not-connected and wifi connected or cellular connected16:13
popeywe don't provide detailed controls below that16:14
ogra_it also brings up the interfaces etc ...16:14
ogra_like on desktop ...16:14
studiopopey, for exp. you made a connection with the nm to a 3g network to uses the internet. what is controlling the internet connection to your device or others, if you are using your device as an access point?16:16
popeyyou are16:16
popeyif you switch it off, you are controlling it16:16
studio"me" ? sorry i am not able to set "root" an password on that device! so i control nothing ...16:17
popeythat's not what I am saying.16:17
popeyyou asked "what is controlling the internet connection"16:18
popeyMy answer is "you" or "the owner of the phone"16:18
studioright16:18
popeyif the owner chooses to open up ports / enable sharing, *they* are controlling it16:18
popeyWe don't provide more granular controls below that.16:18
studiopopey, so if i can't protect my own, why should i use a device like that for an "access point" ?16:20
popeyconvenience16:21
studiohmm ..., that is not ubuntu-like ...16:22
popeysure it is.16:22
popey✓ No ports open by default16:22
popey✓ Easy to use tools16:22
popey✓ Advanced (unsupported) tools for expert users16:23
popeyThat's _exactly_ the Ubuntu-like way16:23
popeyJust because it doesn't fit _your_ specific use case, doesn't mean it's no good.16:23
popeyAlthough it might be "no good" from your persepctive, which is fine, fix it, or pay someone else to fix it.16:24
studio✓ No ports open by default, did you ever made a penetration test  when you got a 3g connection, if yes, with what tool?16:27
popeystudio: not personally, no.16:30
studiotry it :)16:30
popeystudio: none open here16:32
ogra_yeah, how would they magically open :)16:33
ogra_opening a port means to run software on the device that opens it by default there is nothing like that shipped in ubuntu ... the only listening bit is DHCP because you cant block it out if you want to keep functional networking16:34
studiopopey, what tool did you used?16:34
chrisccoulsonIs the UI toolkit going to provide support for printing (including print dialog, print preview)?16:35
popeystudio: nmap16:35
popeychrisccoulson: -> willcooke16:35
studiopopey, try do use for exp. OpenVAS8 ...16:36
popeystudio: what for? What will it find?16:36
willcookechrisccoulson, popey -  pretty sure mpt has already drawn up the dialogs etc.  Not sure if the UI tk will have them or not16:37
popeystudio: thats more than open ports16:37
* ogra_ guesses chrisccoulson is more after lower level implementation details of the SDK 16:37
willcookeso do I16:37
ogra_you somehow need to make the SDK talk to cups and stuff#16:38
ogra_so apps can "include QtShinyUbuntuPrinting 0.1" :)16:38
willcookeagreed16:38
ogra_a fun architectural challenge :)16:39
willcookehummmm.16:39
chrisccoulsonwillcooke, ogra_, yeah, I keep getting asked about adding printing support to Oxide, but having support in QML/UITK is obviously a pre-requisite for that16:40
chrisccoulsonI'm not sure whether people are aware that I can't just add printing support to Oxide without knowing what it's meant to be hooked up to :)16:40
ogra_chrisccoulson, well, while you wait you could just make WebRTC work16:40
willcookeI've got a task to get Till to look in to it, so he'll be investigating v. soon16:40
* ogra_ hides16:40
chrisccoulsonogra_, it works already. As long as you're on desktop, anyway ;)16:40
ogra_hahaha16:41
ogra_yeah, i rarely use oxide on my trusty desktop :)16:41
* ogra_ would like to use the spreed service we have on snappy to do end-to-end encrypted video conferences on his phone ;)16:43
ogra_so much better than hangouts16:43
studiopopey >" thats more than open ports" ... for sure, that is, what my teacher told me, to check my own system ...16:46
popeystudio: I never said anything more than open ports16:47
popeystudio: did you find anything interesting?16:47
studiopopey, yes, for sure. but my primary question was not answered. what is controlling the mobile connection?16:49
popeystudio: Actually, I did, twice.16:50
popeystudio: network manager at the high level, and we don't provide anything lower than that other than the tools you know, iptables and ufw16:50
studiopopey, please, do not repeat "network-manager" ...16:51
ogra_popey, you forgot nmcli16:51
popeystudio: if you don't like the answers, don't keep asking the same question (again)16:51
ogra_there is nothing else ... network manager brings up the devices and configures them16:52
popeystudio: I note you avoided my question. Nice work.16:52
studiopopey, how to "purge" the network-manager in "ubuntu touch"?16:52
popeystudio: you know the answer to this question16:53
studioplz, tell me16:53
popeyeither 1) use apt to remove it, or 2) build your own image without it16:53
studio*lol*, come on, are you kidding?16:54
popeyNo.16:54
popeyOur image is built with network manager.16:54
popeyYou want to make an image that uses something else, go ahead.16:54
studioso network-manager in ubuntu touch is fixed, same as internet-explorer in ms-windows?16:55
popeyno, you can change it.16:55
popeybut it requires some work.16:56
popeyWork you seem to think _I_ should do for _you_?16:56
popeyfeel free to use connmann, flim-flam or whatever else you want to. But don't complain when it breaks.16:57
studio"popey - no, you can change it." PLEASE, give me an hint.16:57
popeyNope.16:57
studiowhy not?16:57
popeyI waste enough of my time answering your stupid questions16:57
studiopopey, sorry, that an user is asking "stupid questions" ... :(16:59
popeyNot as sorry as I.16:59
studiothe problem is, that the devs have no answer for the users ...17:00
popeyNo.17:00
popeyThe problem is this particular user doesn't like the answers he's been given.17:00
popeyAnd keeps poking and poking and asking and asking the same question over and over until the people giving the answers get pissed off and walk away.17:00
=== alan_g is now known as alan_g|EOD
studioas i always say to my friends, the problem is not the hardware, for exp. the Aquaris E4.5 or Aquaris E5 (HD). the problem is "in the moment" the OS ...17:02
popeyStill not answering my question then?17:03
studiopopey, sorry for mismatching ... what was "your" question?17:04
popeystudio: what did you find when you scanned your phone.17:04
studionothing, because i am using android 5.x - without mobile connections! I do not trust android!17:06
popeyoh jeez17:07
* ogra_ hugs popey 17:07
ogra_ppor boy17:07
ogra_*poor17:07
studioogra_, so orga_, you trust android, confirmed their "General terms and conditions of business" or?17:10
popeystudio: well, you'll be happy to hear I have now run openvas8 against my ubuntu phone17:10
ogra_studio, android isnt the topic here at all17:10
ogra_<studio> popey, try do use for exp. OpenVAS8 ...17:11
ogra_<popey> studio: did you find anything interesting?17:11
ogra_<studio> popey, yes, for sure. but my primary question was not answered. what is controlling the mobile connection?17:11
ogra_studio, everyone reading along here is surely interested what that "for sure" means17:11
ogra_so you found some security isse on ubuntu using your scan tool ...17:12
studioogra_, it was you, who told me that you do not like that android-stuff in the ubuntu device, aren't you ?17:12
ogra_what exactly did you find ? i'm sure jdstrand and the rest of the security team would like to know17:12
dobeyoh no17:13
studiosure17:13
ogra_dobey, yeah :(17:13
dobeyfeels a bit like the scene in poltergeist 217:15
dobey"theeeeeeeeeyyyyyyy'rrrreeee baaaaack"17:15
ogra_more like sleeping in nightmare on eml street i'd say17:15
ogra_*elm17:15
dobeywell at least with a set of blades on his fingers, we could hope the ethernet/power cords would get accidentally cut :)17:16
ogra_lol17:16
studioNo, feels a little bit, that the right do not know what the left hand is doing ...17:16
dobeysounds like a personal problem. you should call your doctor perhaps17:17
dobeyat least i was at lunch for most of this so far17:17
popeystudio: again, avoiding the question.17:18
studiodobey, in the moment i'm (and others) are happy with Android 5.x on the bq Aquris E4.5 /E5. The problem is "ubuntu touch" !17:20
dobeyno, the problem is you.17:20
ogra_studio, WHAT DID YOU EXACLY FIND IN YOUR SECURITY SCAN ?17:21
ogra_probably caps help17:21
studiodobey, are you also reading "other boards" ?17:21
dobeyogra_: how could he scan ubuntu if he doesn't have it?17:22
ogra_dobey, he said that after ohe claimed he founnd "something" when scanning with a security tool his teacher asked him to use17:22
ogra_-o17:22
dobeylol17:22
studioogra_, switched back to android, therefore i can't tell you ...17:23
* ogra_ goes to watch TV ... better for my blood pressure17:23
dobeystudio: therefore you don't belong in here, because you're not providing any helpful discussion about ubuntu. go to an #android channel if you want to talk about android17:23
Captainheavy_freenide app is nice!17:24
ogra_Captainheavy_, :)17:24
Captainheavy_*freenode17:24
popeyCaptainheavy_: keyboard, less so :)17:24
ogra_Captainheavy_, try the kiwi app too17:24
studiodobey, what do "YOU" mean with helpfull ?17:24
Captainheavy_Yeah, the submit button is a little small!17:24
popeystudio: I have successfully run openvas8 against multiple ubuntu phones.17:25
dobeystudio: i mean you're complaining about ubuntu on a phone not meeting your personal expectations, because we don't ship the ubuntu server image on phones17:25
popeystudio: thanks for the tip of openvas8, had never heard of it17:25
=== dandrader is now known as dandrader|lunch
studiopopey, a very big thanks for testing it !!!17:26
dobeystudio: hell, you're not even running ubuntu on your ubuntu phone. so why are you here?17:26
Captainheavy_I'll give Kiwi a go now.17:26
studiodobey, i am reading and comparing ...17:26
ogra_the ubuntu IRC chat with the android IRC chat ?17:27
ogra_is that a social study ?17:27
ogra_now it all makes sense ... its a psychological experiment !17:28
* mcphail LOVES finishing work and finding 10 pages of studio_ in his /lastlog!17:28
ogra_lol17:28
mcphailstudio: how are you?17:28
popeyhaha17:28
* popey goes to buy beer and nuts17:28
popeylater skaters17:28
dobeystudio: how can you possibly compare something which you don't actually have?17:28
ogra_popey, enjoy17:28
studiomcphail, i am fine, and you?17:29
mcphailstudio: all the better for finding you here. What's bothering you today?17:29
studioas i told, i am not able to control the mobile connection as i want17:30
mcphailstudio: I thought you dodn't have a connection at all?17:30
studiomcphail, why should to enable a mobile connection without controlling?17:31
mcphailstudio: I can't parse that sentence. What do you mean?17:31
studiomcphail, how did you enable a connection, via 3g, through internet, without controlling that connection?17:33
mcphailstudio: a data connection, you mean?17:34
studioyes17:34
ogra_you control it via network-manager ... network-manager talks to the driver, enables the connection and sets up the bit sand pieces17:34
ogra_exactly like on the desktop17:35
studioorga_, this is nonsens17:35
mcphailstudio: As far as I know, the magic Ubuntu pixies which live in my phone arrange it for me. A man in my position has to learn to delegate17:35
ogra_(but popey told you that multiple times)17:35
ali1234studio: you should not worry about android, it is open source. if anyone is monitoring you, they are doing it with the radio firmware17:35
ogra_hahahaha17:35
ogra_mcphail, you rock :)17:35
ogra_studio, the code is out there, feel free to look at it17:36
Captainheavy2This is much nicer!17:36
Captainheavy2I'll up the rating on the app store since 2.0 is compketely unwarranted17:37
ogra_yup ... and it actually re-connects if you dont leave the app in background for to long17:37
studioogra_, if it not nosens, please, how do i purge the "network-manager" and make my own connection to the 3G-Network?17:37
dobeystudio: write something to replace network-manager and do it17:37
dobeystudio: network-manager wraps ofono, i presume you also hate ofono, so you'll need something to replace it as well17:38
Captainheavy2File picker is nice too17:38
ogra_you write a tool that is like network-manager ... then you apt-get purge network-manager from your phone after you made it writable and install your tool instead17:38
studiodobey, how do i purge the network-manager?17:38
Captainheavy2Google is your friend17:38
dobeystudio: you create your own custom image which doesn't include it17:38
ogra_dobey, ofono doesnt do the data stuff i think, it only turns the device on ... NM still does the IP stuff on top17:39
ali1234ogra_: since it's silly question time apparently, i have one. can i make a snappy core image using raspbian debs ie so that it will boot on a raspberry pi 1?17:40
studiodobey, ok! where do i find the full sources to make an image for for exp. the bq E5.0?17:40
dobeyogra_: i think it does set up the routes, because there was some race condition between ofono and n-m when switching between cell/wifi, at one point17:40
ali1234more generally, can i just feed the snappy build scripts a different repo entirely?17:40
dobeystudio: see the porting url in the channel topic.17:40
ogra_ali1234, well, you would need all the binaries we use inside the dore rootfs17:40
studiodobey, u are kidding, right?17:41
ali1234ogra_: if those binaries are in debs, i could dpkg-buildpackage them on raspbian?17:41
ogra_ali1234, meaning specifically the "snappy" binary ...17:41
ogra_probably17:41
ogra_no idea if there is go in debian ... snappp yis written in go and mmost likely has version requirements17:42
dobeystudio: no. it is the guide on how to build images. since an image already exists for your device, it's less work, but you're going to have to create your own tarball to use for building the final image17:42
ogra_ali1234, https://launchpad.net/~snappy-dev/+archive/ubuntu/image ...17:42
ali1234i would expect debian has go... it's pretty popular these days, no?17:42
ogra_btw, we should probably tallk in #snappy :)17:42
ali1234oh yes17:42
ogra_the question is if it has the right version17:42
studiodobey, you can build a kernel, but no full image ...17:43
Captainheavy2Has the slow keyboard input across apps been noted at all?17:43
dobeystudio:  you need more than a kernel to port ubuntu to another device17:43
ogra_Captainheavy2, i havent seen slow input ... so probably not ...17:43
dobeythe porting guide tells you what to do. if you can't follow the guide, then you can't build your own image. so you can stop asking questions about how to do something for which documentation is clearly present, and has been given to you to use17:44
studiodobey, i need to "port" "ubuntu touch" to an "ubuntu touch" device" ????17:44
Captainheavy2Happens occasionally, not sure why, it looks like an input buffer isn't being guven processing time thensuddenly it is17:45
mcphailstudio: why would it be ubuntu touch? You wouldn't be building Ubuntu touch. You'd be buildin "studio touch", if that's not a bit too creepy17:45
dobeystudio: you need to follow the directions plainly given to you, to create your own custom image. what you will have will no longer be ubuntu. so calling it ubuntu would be wrong17:46
dobeystudio: the guide is just a guide17:46
mcphailstudio: If it is any help, I'd love to test your build17:46
dobeyasking people in here to repeat everything that's already in the guide, to tell you how to do what you want, is rude17:46
studiomcphail, where are the sources to build an own image for an bq Aquaris E4.5 / E5.0 ?17:46
mcphailstudio: no idea. Haven't tried to build "mcphail touch".17:47
dobeystudio: rtfm.17:47
studiodobey, what means " RTFM " ?17:48
dobeystudio: read the friggin manual.17:48
studiodobey, i thought "Ubuntu Touch" is open source ...17:49
mcphailstudio: have you built a fork of AOSP for your device? How did you get on?17:49
mcphailstudio: I'd _love_ to try your phone distro. It'd be the most secure phone OS ever.17:50
dobeystudio: stop trolling and read the manual. it tells you exactly what you need to know17:50
studiodobey: "studio: stop trolling" ... did you really mean i am "trolling"? or i am just telling questions ...?17:56
dobeystudio: asking the same stuff over and over again even though you've been given the ansers, is trolling.17:57
mcphailstudio: don't ever stop trolling. That's why I love you17:57
dobeymaking comments like "i thought 'ubuntu touch' is open source ..." is trolling17:58
ogra_dobey, "not the hardware is the problem, the OS is" ;)17:58
studiomcphail, dobey, did you ever asked yourself, that you do dot have an answer?17:58
dobeyogra_: the lack of whisky in my abode, is the problem17:58
ogra_one of my favorite studio sentences today i think ...17:58
ogra_dobey, yeah, same here17:59
dobeystudio: we gave you thousands of answers17:59
dobeystudio: your ignorance towards them, is trolling.17:59
k1l_studio: hi, i think we had enough discussions now, that your way of "just asking questions" is not working on irc. so please stay on the "ask one time and accept the answer" rule and dont try to "motivate" the others with telling them how they work sucks17:59
mcphailstudio: The thing that makes me sad is that I fell my love is not reciprocated. I ask you questions, you don't answer. Can't you see you're breaking my heart?18:00
ogra_:'-|18:01
ogra_such touching words18:01
* mcphail pushes away ogra_'s handkerchief. He needs to be alone right now18:01
popeystudio love is unrequited love18:01
dobeypoor mcphail :-?18:01
studiok1l_, i'd like to do that, but i have still no answer about an IDS/IPS on "ubuntu touch" !18:02
mcphailstudio: what does Iain Duncan Smith have to do with Ubuntu touch?18:02
studioIDS = wiki!18:02
ogra_mcphail, he wants to get in touch with Irina Patty Smith ... his cousin !18:02
mcphailaah. But the phone pixies won't make the connection??18:03
ogra_but there is a slash between them !18:03
dobeymcphail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCUCgYMVFJY18:03
k1l_studio: ask one time and accept the answer. right now no one seems to be interessted in giving correct answers since you were too annoying with your behaviour before18:03
studiok1l_, isn't it a shame?18:04
dobeyit's a damn shame18:04
mcphaildobey: that is _beautiful_18:04
dobeyhaha18:04
ogra_lol18:04
mcphailAnyway, rain is off so I'm off to the shops. Sorry for straying so far off topic18:05
studiohow, from the developers can tell "Ubuntu Touch" is Ubuntu? it is not !18:05
dobeythere is no such thing as "ubuntu touch"18:06
dobeythere is only ubuntu18:06
dobeyand zuul18:06
ogra_and goser !18:06
studiodobey, it is a fake!18:06
* dobey goes to register the Zuulbuntu distro in launchpad18:06
ogra_dobey, you might get copyright issues with zul actually18:07
dobeystudio: this is trolling.18:07
studiodobey, for sure, try "sudo /bin/bash" and "passwd"!18:08
dobeystudio: you asked a question and were given an answer. just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean the answer is going to change18:08
dobeystudio: no18:08
k1l_studio: you are talking about stuff you dont have a clue. and people are annoyed by you attacking others for their work just because you dont know how the technic works. right now you are again attacking others work for no reason.18:08
studiono? you know why?18:08
k1l_studio: running a bash doenst make a non-ubuntu to a ubuntu18:09
dobeystudio: stop trolling. this line of questioning has been answered. if you continue repeating these same questions again, i will ask ops to have you banned from the channel, or worse.18:09
dobeystudio: your continued spamming and trolling of this channel, is not appreciated.18:09
studiok1l_, could you please explain, because on on other "ubuntu distributuions" "sudo /bin/bash" followed by an "passwd" is working18:11
ogra_and why would you do that at all on any ubuntu ? instead of sudo -i ?18:12
ogra_just to open extra security attack verctors ?18:12
dobey!root | studio18:12
ubot5studio: Do not try to guess the root password, that is impossible. Instead, realise the truth... there is no root password. Then you will see that it is 'sudo' that grants you access and not the root password. Look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo18:12
studioogra_, this is NOT the question!18:12
ogra_studio, i totalyl dont care ... like you dont care if anyone answers you18:13
studioto set "root" a password is a long time known bug. So why do you not fix it?18:14
dobeystudio: you can only answer a question, when you know what the question is.18:14
dobeyit is not a bug18:14
ogra_never has been18:14
studiodobey, is it a feature?18:15
ogra_just read the wikipage he gave you18:15
dobeystudio: the answers have been given to you multiple times. read them.18:15
dobeyif the ubuntu on phones distribution is unsuitable to your claimed needs/desires, then you are more than welcome to create your own image, as has been suggested to you multiple times, by following the porting guide18:17
k1l_studio: last time now: dont repeat questions just because you dont like the answers already given and dont attack others for their work. that is pure destructive and we dont want such users in the ubuntu community18:18
studiok1l_, i din't get an answer about "https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/shadow/+bug/1450880" so you want do "kick me" to ask "questions like that" ?18:20
ubot5Ubuntu bug 1450880 in shadow (Ubuntu) "Impossible to set root password in Ubuntu Touch" [Undecided,Confirmed]18:20
k1l_studio: i will again ban you if you dont change your behaviour to that way we all behave in this community. you got enough warnings and kicks already. change your aggressive behaviour or go away18:21
dobeyyes, you have been given an answer18:22
studiok1l_, you can "ban" what "you" want, the question is still open!18:22
dobeyno it is not18:22
dobeyyour illiteracy does not change the answer18:23
k1l_studio: so now you can focus on scrolling up and look what answers were given already18:23
ali1234it's kind of funny that you think he was trolling18:26
dobeyi don't think he was trolling. his intent is pretty clear18:26
ali1234i mean if i wanted to troll i could do a much better job than that18:27
k1l_ali1234: no one said he is a good troll ;p18:27
=== dandrader|lunch is now known as dandrader
dobeyindeed18:28
k1l_ali1234: the issue is that his ways of "just asking" over and over again and not getting the answers he wants  results in him badmouthing others work. so its just destructive.18:29
dobeyhe's trying to "shame" devs into building the thing *he* wants, rather than what is best for everyone18:30
ali1234ah, the "best for everyone line"18:30
ali1234"best for the majority" would perhaps be closer to the truth... i don't think anything can be the best for everyone18:31
mhall119ali1234: this isn't the first time we've been through this with him18:31
ogra_fine too18:31
dobeyali1234: the best compromise that most suits the needs of the target audience for the phone18:32
ogra_this goes probably on for a 3/4 year or even a year18:32
dobeyyesh :(18:32
ali1234really, and you only just banned him??18:32
dobeyhe's been banned many times18:32
ogra_he was banned for the first month or so18:32
mhall119ali1234: technically he's only silenced right now18:32
ogra_then we decided to give him a chance and keep up with him18:33
* ogra_ gave up on that quite a while ago til today ... 18:33
popeyanyway, moving on.18:33
ogra_+118:33
mhall119ali1234: basically he demands help but does not accept it18:34
ogra_he doesnt demand help ... thats the point18:34
ogra_he demands that what we do is wrong wrong wrong ... *footstomp*18:34
ogra_:)18:34
mhall119well, the point is that he doesn't accept "Here's how you can do it your way"18:35
dobeythe main issue is that he bought an ubuntu phone expecting it to be a raspberry pi 2 running ubuntu server18:35
ali1234i think the problem you have is that all the people who are willing to just accept whatever you think is best are also happy to accept whatever google and microsoft thinks is best18:36
ogra_dobey, he didnt buy an ubuntu phone18:36
mhall119ali1234: we're happy to tell people how to do things differently than what we want to do18:36
ogra_he bought an android phone and pushed ubuntu onto it18:36
dobeyogra_: i think he bought the E5 ubuntu edition maybe18:36
ogra_oh18:36
ogra_i missed that bit then18:36
ali1234mhall119: but those people are almost by definition never going to be satisfied... it's like the worst self-selected audience ever18:37
ogra_i thought he also bought the android version of it ... doing the same mistakes as with the 4.518:37
dobeymaybe. hard to be 100% sure though18:37
mhall119ali1234: which people, the ones who want things to work the way we've built them, or the ones that want things to work differently than we've built them?18:37
ali1234mhall119: the latter18:37
mhall119ali1234: that's why we don't built things for them :)18:38
dobeywell, mostly they can be satisifed18:38
mhall119but, we do give them the ability to build things for themselves18:38
ali1234mhall119: yes, the question then arises, who *are* you building them for? people who are perfectly happy with windows and android?18:38
dobeymaking a chroot in the user home dir on a phone is not difficult18:38
mhall119ali1234: people who want an Ubuntu phone that works in a safe, sane way out of the box18:38
dobeyali1234: we're building for the general consumer market18:38
dobeynot leet hax0r market18:38
dobeybut leet hax0r market can build their own custom images that suit their needs, because ubuntu is open source18:39
ali1234dobey: i think that's the first time i've ever heard anyone admit that :)18:39
popeyhah18:39
dobeyall the tools and documentation are available18:39
dobeyali1234: i don't think i've seen/heard anyone talking about the ubuntu phone in a way that doesn't admit that, as far as marketing goes18:40
k1l_well, most 1337 h4xx0rs just want things done by others because they dont have the skills to do that themselves. just look at the average joe using backbox or kali linux.18:40
ali1234dobey: that's rather different than coming out and saying it directly, without marketing spin18:40
ali1234i mean you can read between the lines of every official announcement and know this18:41
dobeyi don't think there's any between the lines18:41
ali1234but it's always seemed to me that the leadership is afraid/embarrassed to admit it outright18:41
mhall119ali1234: I think we've always said we target Ubuntu enthusiasts and developers, which is different from "leet hax0rs"18:41
dobeyubuntu has always been about bringing open source to the general conumser market18:41
dobeyie "linux for human beings"18:42
ali1234implying that "leet hax0r" are not human beings...18:42
mhall119just like we never targetd them on the desktop. We don't block them or put up obstacles, we just don't cater to their specific wants18:42
mhall119ali1234: implying that not all human beings are "leet hax0rs"18:42
mhall119s/leet hax0rs/redheads/18:43
dobeylol18:43
dobeylinux for gingers ;)18:43
dobeyaww, aq isn't here18:43
mhall119we don't specifically target redheads, but we don't block them anyway18:43
ali1234what would you do differently if you were specifically making a distribution for redheads?18:44
mhall119don't dig too deep into the analogy ali123418:45
mhall119the point is that hackers are a subset of "human beings", and we don't target that specific subset, but rather the larger set that still includes them18:45
ali1234then you should say "linux for most human beings"18:46
dobeyi would say i am closer to a machine, than i am to human beings18:46
mhall119it's a tagline ali123418:46
ali1234exactly, it's marketing spin18:46
* mhall119 can confirm, dobey is at least 60% machine18:46
ali1234nobody really knows what it means18:46
dobeyno, it's generalization18:46
ogra_ali1234, it means that a computer illiterate person like my mom suddenly can use linux on her computer :)18:47
dobey"linux for human beings*" *may not be suitable for all members of homo sapien species18:47
ali1234it's true, my dad loves ubuntu18:47
ogra_at least that is waht it always meant to me :)18:47
mhall119an above-average inteligence chimpanzee could probably use it too, its just a tagline18:48
mcphailali1234: the tagline wasn't for marketing. It was just an excuse to bundle naked pictures in the default install18:48
dobeyit's true, my aibo loves ubuntu18:48
mhall119it's a guiding principle, it means we should try and make it useful to as many people as possible18:48
mhall119which affects both what we do, and what we don't do18:49
popeyali1234: does your dad use ubuntu or xubuntu out of interest?18:50
ali1234popey: ubuntu18:50
ali1234he had no prior experience at all18:51
dobeythere is only zuulbuntu18:51
popeyblimey18:51
popeywindows user previously?18:51
ali1234all he knew before was excel and sage18:51
ali1234he could load them up on his own, as long you didn't move the icons18:51
ali1234he's retried now so no need for windows18:51
popeyheh18:51
ali1234now he's on iplayer and stock market websites all the time18:52
ali1234he really took to it18:52
ali1234even found a bug in libreoffice18:52
popeyyeah, it's funny how some do. I met a guy who only ever wanted firefox, skype and some online betting website.18:52
popeyI've never heard from him since I installed it.18:53
popeyhis daughter tells me he still happily uses it18:53
popeyNo residual virus cleaning income for me!18:53
ali1234yeah... my mum uses windows cos she has this sewing software18:53
ali1234i dread supporting that machine18:53
ali1234it's all the same software... firefox, libreoffice... but her computer messes up 10x as much as my dad's18:54
ali1234even he started making jokes about how windows sucks18:54
dobeyali1234: will said sewing software not run under wine?18:56
ali1234no idea18:56
ali1234it has a hardware protection dongle18:56
popeyerk18:57
dobeyeww18:57
dobeyshould theoretically still work though18:57
dobeythere's also some open source sewing software around18:58
popeyhardware dongles need to die in a fire19:05
popeyalong with generated license keys19:05
ali1234this one actually has to be activated online19:07
popeythat's worse19:08
popeyI had a long argument with a software developer that it was unreasonable he forced customers to generate license keys on his site, he said he could forsee no problem.19:08
popeyThen he retired, and none of his customers could generate keys.19:08
popeybecause he stopped paying for hosting19:08
beunohe retired, not his problem anymore!19:09
zsombi_kenvandine: sorry, dude, I was diving into the ListItem expansion storry too much, I just realized you were fighting the StateSaver cleanup issue again :)19:10
zsombi_but I see you managed to sort it out now...19:10
kenvandinezsombi_, yeah... dednick is working on it :)19:11
kenvandineonly part of the fix we needed landed, qtmir is still coming19:11
zsombi_kenvandine: awesome!... I still need to complete the UriHandler part... some day...19:12
k1l_for the german guys interessted in further opinions of studio: https://ubuntuusers.de/user/duno/19:28
dobeyoh, must register to see19:32
TonyBostonwhat are the bets for tomorrow release?19:33
mcphailTonyBoston: are you in the bq ghetto as well?19:34
TonyBostonmcphail, yup, can I help?19:40
mcphailTonyBoston: apparently nobody is getting the update until popey gets his19:41
popeyhah19:41
mcphailTonyBoston: last I heard was it is due tomorrow, but who knows?19:42
TonyBostonmcphail, they told me tomorrow will be the release, if all goes well19:43
mcphailTonyBoston: bq seem to take quality control quite seriously, which is a good thing, I suppose19:44
TonyBostonpmcgowan said that I remember19:45
TonyBostonmcphail, true19:45
mcphailTonyBoston: I'd have thought they would be giving the automatic rubber stamp by now19:45
popeythey have raised numerous bugs19:45
popeyit's great, becaue they get feedback from their customers and pass that on to us19:45
TonyBostonmcphail, seriously I doidn't use the E5 anymore19:45
popeyE5 is the one device I don't have :)19:46
TonyBostondon't19:46
popeyhah19:46
TonyBostonits just to buggy and I guess its not the device itself19:46
popeyI kinda want to collect them all19:46
popeyits the same software as the e4.5 and mx419:46
popeyvery little differs19:46
TonyBostonso I am waiting for fixes to come19:46
mcphailTonyBoston: the bugs are annoying, but I had to spend a bit of time with android a couple of weeks ago and was glad to get back to Ubuntu19:47
TonyBostonmcphail, I have a blackberry for everyday use19:47
TonyBostonwon't change that19:48
mcphailTonyBoston: I have never actually used a blackberry. My previous employer tried to get me to use one of the old ones, but I needed a bit of email distance from them19:48
TonyBostonyou should try a newer one19:49
mcphailTonyBoston: they do look quite nice19:50
mcphailTonyBoston: blackberry fans tend to be very passionate about their phones19:51
mcphailTonyBoston: it is a good community19:51
TonyBostonbrb19:51
syntax_errorOo19:52
=== syntax_error is now known as TonyBoston
dobeypopey: we should get a glass case in the office and place one of every OE device shipping with ubuntu in it, like google has for android in their offices19:56
popeytrue19:56
nik90popey: why aren't you on #ubuntu-app-devel?19:56
popeynetsplit19:57
nik90popey: anyway, bartosz fixed the stopwatch timezone scenario you raised during the meeting ;)19:57
popeyoooh!19:57
nik90we now use UTC time :P since it stays constant.19:58
nik90should push this improvement over to mzanetti's app..he will like it.19:58
popeynik90: can you really not see me in #ubuntu-app-devel?20:03
nik90popey: I don't see you listed in the user list, but can see your messages.20:04
popeyodd20:04
nik90popey: probably just polari being buggy20:04
popeykk20:04
popeythere was a few netsplits earlier20:04
nik90I'm going to restart the irc client and see what happens20:05
taiebotHey i have a funny bug anyone wants to reproduce before reporting it?  This might eat your phone data. Ubuntu phone hangs up  after 1h00 of call.  Yesterday my phone call stopped looking at the log info it stopped after 01:00:00 this looks very suspicious..21:22
mcphailtaiebot: are you sure it wasn't your operator who disconnected you after one hour?21:25
mcphailtaiebot: are you on an unlimited plan?21:26
taiebotmcphail: i usually never call for that long and not sure i want to use my data allowance to solve this21:26
mcphailtaiebot: I've had incoming calls lasting > 1 hour, but don't think I've made any outgoing calls of that length on the phone21:28
* mcphail isn't much of a conversationalist21:28
taiebotmcphail:  did not think it could be the operator but yeah it was definitely triggered as the time of exactly 1h00 is so supicious21:29
mcphailtaiebot: some unlimited plans have terms such as "calls are unlimited but you must reconnect after 1 hour". That might be the issue21:30
dobeytaiebot: making a phone call uses your data?21:34
taiebotdobey: i meant my phone allowance21:35
taiebotdobey: 3h calls 300 text and 300mb / month21:35
dobeytaiebot: your provider doesn't have an automated info # you can call that doesn't count against your time?21:36
taiebotdobey: i do not really know they send me a text when i am going to run over the allowance ( which rarely happens for calls)21:37
popeytaiebot: which provider?22:08
popeytaiebot: i know (for example) the free giffgaff to giffgaff calls only last up to an hour22:09
taiebotpopey vectone bad one following reviews posted by other people  http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=439746322:10
popeyWHO!?22:11
taiebotpopey vectone mobile http://www.vectonemobile.co.uk/22:30
ali1234vectone? i've literally never heard of them, and their website doesn't work...23:52

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