| shauno | actually, that could work. landscape has an api, so just stick a script on something that polls the free ram, and kicks ipmi if it's got silly again | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| shauno | but the only other computer that's always on is my appletv. it'd be quite funny using that as a watchdog for my server | 00:00 |
| penguin42 | or setup watchdog to do it | 00:01 |
| diddledan | lmao | 00:01 |
| penguin42 | shauno: Hasn't your machine got a builtin watchdog | 00:01 |
| shauno | no idea, it's that little hp microserver | 00:04 |
| penguin42 | wouldn't be surprised if it did and it's probably easy to enable; and you just have to wire the watchdog to actually check on your service | 00:04 |
| shauno | hm, outta curiousity, the appletv doesn't have uptime installed, but system_profiler shows the last boot as being the 30th of june, 2012 | 00:06 |
| shauno | well, for now I'm trying to leave it "broken" expecting them to come back with questions to my bug report, eventually | 00:07 |
| shauno | the ram usage is growing by 3GB a day, so it's not just "this is a piddly server", but enough to cause problems for most. if not this week, next | 00:08 |
| penguin42 | oh leaks like that are normally easy to find; it's the 1M/day that are hard | 00:10 |
| shauno | oh it's not leaking, it's just never ending cron jobs | 00:10 |
| shauno | so one starts, 10 minutes later the next starts, then the next .. | 00:10 |
| penguin42 | oh, any idea why they don't end? | 00:10 |
| shauno | nadda. in the logs they're complaining they can't connect to something (doesn't say what) | 00:11 |
| shauno | if I run them in bash, they make exactly the same complaint but terminate | 00:11 |
| penguin42 | strace or ltrace on the hung one to see what it's waiting for? | 00:11 |
| shauno | looks like it's just going around in circles trying to connect to localhost, but never giving up | 00:14 |
| shauno | 5672, apparently somethign rabbitmq should be listening on | 00:15 |
| penguin42 | shauno: I'd try and get a core dump or backtrace from teh hung process to see exactly where it's hung | 00:16 |
| shauno | it doesn't appear to be hung, it's just retrying forever | 00:17 |
| shauno | hm, rabbit does appear pretty stuffed up though. it launched loads of processes named get_inethost that don't seem to move at all | 00:24 |
| penguin42 | dns hang? | 00:26 |
| shauno | hm, it seems to be hating something in /etc/hosts | 00:29 |
| shauno | (of which there is not a lot) | 00:29 |
| shauno | I just put every alias I could think of on 127.0.0.1 and restarted, and everything just went through at once | 00:30 |
| shauno | so I've put it back as it was, will wait for it to break again, and then add them one by one tomorrow and see which one it was | 00:30 |
| penguin42 | problem resolving it's own hostname perhaps? | 00:30 |
| shauno | it shouldn't do | 00:31 |
| penguin42 | or maybe it was triyng to connect to rabit on a firewalled external interface rather than the localhost? | 00:31 |
| shauno | yeah, that's what I'm looking at right now. host (myhostname) returns my public IP | 00:32 |
| shauno | despite /etc/hosts having the short & fqdn on 127.0.1.1 | 00:32 |
| diddledan | hostname && hostname -f | 00:33 |
| diddledan | double check that it has the right hostname comparing to /etc/hosts | 00:33 |
| diddledan | and you reboobed since setting the hostname? | 00:33 |
| shauno | -f has localhost, hostname alone gives fqdn | 00:34 |
| shauno | and yes, I've reboobed lots. and lots lol | 00:34 |
| diddledan | :-) | 00:34 |
| diddledan | rabbit isn't configured wonkily to think it's not itself? | 00:34 |
| diddledan | yey negative soup | 00:35 |
| diddledan | you want double negative? hah, I see that and raise you a triple! | 00:35 |
| shauno | hm, I can't find any config file for rabbit at all, so no idea what name it's looking for | 00:40 |
| shauno | oh, nope, wild goose chase. the queue emptied becaue the processes that are trying to talk to rabbit do bail if it's not running | 00:42 |
| shauno | but the log for rabbit is 12G of http://paste.ubuntu.com/12258866/ | 00:42 |
| shauno | which probably means it's hating my ssl keys. I think that can wait until tomorrow. | 00:46 |
| shauno | (although I think the bug stands as entered, the complete lack of locking shouldn't bring down the machine) | 00:46 |
| penguin42 | right there's too separate problems; 1) Why the cron took so long 2) Why it ran multiple | 00:50 |
| diddledan | I really should sleep | 02:52 |
| maps | morning | 05:25 |
| === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte | ||
| MooDoo | morning all | 06:55 |
| * DJones looks at monitor prices, 27" LG £159, 27" Apple £739....., possibly different resolutions, but thats a hell of a difference | 08:42 | |
| MooDoo | It's coz it has the word APPLE on it, it's that 5 letter word that costs £700 :) monitor is about £39 :D | 08:43 |
| zmoylan-pi | but one is made of kittens and unicorns and rainbows | 08:43 |
| DJones | You forgot that the apple one is shiny | 08:43 |
| zmoylan-pi | now with 10% more rainbows | 08:44 |
| shauno | or you could actually try to compare like to like and see where it gets you | 08:48 |
| brobostigon | morning boys and girls. | 08:52 |
| MooDoo | morning brobostigon | 09:14 |
| brobostigon | morning MooDoo | 09:14 |
| shauno | well, I figured out what was choking up landscape. if LDS and rabbit aren't using the same hostname, things get ugly. moving LDS into a vhost caused said ugly. | 09:25 |
| czajkowski | those in London - canonical presenting at a meet up https://www.eventbrite.com/e/containercamp-day-zero-tickets-18239147782 | 09:26 |
| popey | morning | 09:34 |
| czajkowski | popey: howdy | 09:34 |
| brobostigon | morning popey | 09:50 |
| diplo | Hey all, boss has asked me what spec I'd like for a server to run 6-7 minimal linux vm's ( used for testing / basic rpm builds etc ) no stressful work at all. Anyone recommend a small cheap box | 10:21 |
| diplo | I think a tower is preffered and something that is not like a 747 | 10:22 |
| diplo | http://www.serversdirect.co.uk/HP_Tower_Servers/prod.asp | 10:23 |
| diplo | ML range seem to be the one to go for I'm guessing | 10:23 |
| foobarry | one with RAID | 10:23 |
| foobarry | what hypervisor? | 10:24 |
| diplo | yeah, although none of these VM's are critical and can be re-created easily | 10:24 |
| diplo | esxi probably | 10:24 |
| foobarry | ok, should probably check their compatibility matrix | 10:24 |
| foobarry | hardware compatibility is not a given | 10:25 |
| diplo | Good point | 10:25 |
| diplo | I've had that issue before | 10:25 |
| foobarry | i have issues with my emulex iscsi when it comes to host profiles | 10:25 |
| diplo | I'm not against using kvm or something though | 10:25 |
| foobarry | also had network card issues and SAS controllers | 10:25 |
| foobarry | playing up, causing purple screens | 10:25 |
| diplo | Seems the ml310 is support ok | 10:26 |
| diplo | Also.... | 10:39 |
| diplo | I've got to write a document explaining why we need to upgrade CentOS 4 boxes in simple terms | 10:40 |
| diplo | Struggling apart from right, because we're stupid not to | 10:40 |
| diplo | :D | 10:40 |
| diplo | Got to be in layman terms | 10:40 |
| foobarry | E O L | 10:40 |
| diplo | yeah done that part, we have serious issues with emails etc as well | 10:42 |
| diplo | Our customers won't upgrade and basically after me explaining to our staff the reasons they want something to push customers to upgrade | 10:43 |
| diplo | Not supporting TLS etc, shellshock... | 10:43 |
| diplo | Trying to google something along the lines of why not use a EOL OS | 10:43 |
| foobarry | costs in cleaning up centos4 systems after pwning could run to many 100s of thousand pounds | 10:44 |
| diplo | yeah I've mentioned that, also asks my bosses who are liable | 10:44 |
| TwistedLucidity | "You are out of support, you will not get any updates, you will be vulnerable to many attacks, you are negligent in not upgrading and may well find yourself on the wrong-end of a lawsuit" | 10:44 |
| diplo | We've had two sites pwned already | 10:44 |
| popey | "In the event that customer data leaks, you have no redress" | 10:44 |
| diplo | Doesn't seem to sink in | 10:44 |
| foobarry | think you need a new job | 10:44 |
| diplo | I like that | 10:44 |
| diplo | I do!!!! | 10:45 |
| diplo | I made that decision whilst in these meetings | 10:45 |
| TwistedLucidity | If they process credit cards, the CPA (or whatever it's called) may revoke their status | 10:45 |
| TwistedLucidity | The ICO will have a monumental hissy-fit if there's a leak | 10:45 |
| diplo | nah no CC stuff done at all | 10:45 |
| TwistedLucidity | The ICO is toothless, but they'll make a lot of noise. | 10:45 |
| diplo | But still ssh access and stuff | 10:45 |
| diplo | They just don't see the implications | 10:46 |
| TwistedLucidity | Any information they have can (and probably will) end up with a competitor | 10:46 |
| foobarry | i am looking for a new sysadmin | 10:46 |
| foobarry | amongst other jobs | 10:46 |
| diplo | foobarry: we've talked before but seriously debating working distance now | 10:47 |
| diplo | TwistedLucidity: I like that too! | 10:47 |
| diplo | We use CISAM db, it's not very hard to get info out :P | 10:47 |
| TwistedLucidity | Kinda hard to know what to say without knowing the business, but they could well be in breach of contract with partners/customers | 10:48 |
| diplo | Half our email servers run sME Server 7 that are EOL ( CentOS 4 based ) as well, I spend most of my time massaging them to work, explained that too | 10:48 |
| diplo | Work in wholesaling with ERP software | 10:49 |
| foobarry | sounds like they aren't willing to learn | 10:49 |
| foobarry | centos 4 is ancient now | 10:49 |
| diplo | We're the software company selling the ERP but also do networks/servers for them | 10:49 |
| diplo | Yeah was EOL 3 years ago | 10:49 |
| TwistedLucidity | diplo: You host that or sell the hardware? | 10:49 |
| diplo | And no they're not willing to learn, "It works" | 10:49 |
| diplo | All of the above TwistedLucidity | 10:50 |
| TwistedLucidity | Hello breach on contract. | 10:50 |
| foobarry | we got pwned by anonymous a while back | 10:50 |
| foobarry | can't tell you how, or why | 10:50 |
| foobarry | but i think you can guess | 10:50 |
| zmoylan-pi | you did something bad to kittens on the internet?! | 10:51 |
| diplo | TwistedLucidity: but customers won't upgrade | 10:51 |
| foobarry | they rolled a dice | 10:51 |
| foobarry | and made 1+1 = 75 | 10:51 |
| foobarry | probably one of their last acts | 10:51 |
| foobarry | misplaced activism | 10:51 |
| awilkins | Aren't people deprecating support for CentOS _5_ now? | 10:52 |
| foobarry | judge and jury doesn't really work when you're wrong | 10:52 |
| TwistedLucidity | diplo: Well, that all depends on the customers' businesses. | 10:52 |
| foobarry | do i686 and 64 bit libs both get installed by default? | 10:52 |
| awilkins | I mean, it is on version 7 now | 10:52 |
| foobarry | seem to have loads of 32 bit packages on a server (alongside 64 bit ones) | 10:52 |
| TwistedLucidity | diplo: You should have come to the LBW, there was a story similar to this where a customer wouldn't increase their disc quota. Their entire enterprise went down, so the called up screaming. Not one finger did the provide lift. | 10:53 |
| TwistedLucidity | Customer had had the order which simply required a signature for 6 months. | 10:53 |
| TwistedLucidity | But "It worked" so they didn't bother | 10:53 |
| TwistedLucidity | Until it no longer worked | 10:53 |
| diplo | We had that a couple of weeks ago | 10:54 |
| TwistedLucidity | And the provider didn't have the order and couldn't magic X TB out of thin air with zero notice | 10:54 |
| diplo | Customer had been emailed/quoted multiple times citing no space on server and being 8 years old | 10:54 |
| diplo | We didn't have space for backups | 10:54 |
| diplo | They got infected with crypto, lost most of their samba shares | 10:55 |
| diplo | + all their backup tapes with 7+ years old | 10:55 |
| TwistedLucidity | Huh....there is one way to make them change. Alter your pricing. | 10:55 |
| TwistedLucidity | Support for CentOS 7....£ X. Support for CentOS 4 £ Y. Where Y >>> X. | 10:56 |
| foobarry | oh great, whatsapp spam. thats a new one | 10:56 |
| diplo | I've told my bosses we need a clause in our contracts about OS age and space issues after they've been alerted and something happens they get charged the earth | 10:56 |
| diplo | I like that TwistedLucidity, will suggest that | 10:56 |
| diplo | Although can't do CentOS7 yet.... | 10:56 |
| TwistedLucidity | Well, 6 or whatever | 10:56 |
| diplo | 64bit only, we can't get hold of Cisam 64bit binaries yet :/ | 10:56 |
| diplo | yeah | 10:57 |
| zmoylan-pi | what happens if the support for centos 4 involves security, are you then liable? | 10:57 |
| TwistedLucidity | When they say "Why?" say that, due to CentOS 4 being so old you have to now pay people squillions to try and back-port the updates. But it's best effort and you guarantee nuthin' | 10:57 |
| diplo | I've asked this question... bosses don't answer or know.. | 10:57 |
| foobarry | "Guys remember to be careful when buying a new laptop for University! There is the terrible thing called "UBUNTU" which comes pre-installed on some Dell laptops. This may look like windows, but is far from it. You will not be able to access things like Internet explorer and Microsoft word. You will probably not be able to gain a college degree with i" | 10:57 |
| shauno | in an ideal world, you could just say "because we say so. that's what you pay us for" :/ | 10:57 |
| TwistedLucidity | foobarry: Huh? | 10:58 |
| foobarry | foudn on a student facebook group | 10:58 |
| diplo | shauno: yeah pity it's not an idea world | 10:58 |
| shauno | no kidding :) | 10:58 |
| diplo | We have one customer with a 15 year old server, won't upgrade because it works | 10:58 |
| TwistedLucidity | foobarry: Well, of course. Although both those can be made to work if absolutely needed. | 10:58 |
| diplo | Runnign RH 8 | 10:58 |
| TwistedLucidity | diplo: This like that are sometimes needed, but they tend to be connected to finicky equipment and air-gapped. I know loads of labs have to run that way. | 10:59 |
| TwistedLucidity | The MasSpec will only accept XP and only XP will be accepted. | 11:00 |
| diplo | That sucks, I take it that it's not networked anymore to outside network ? | 11:01 |
| shauno | we're not allowed xp on the internal network, let alone external | 11:02 |
| TwistedLucidity | Nope, air gapped like I say. Any transfer has to be by floppy (or USB in some cases) | 11:02 |
| TwistedLucidity | Yes, I typed "floppy" | 11:02 |
| TwistedLucidity | And yes, I know the USB could contain malicious executables but there's nothing they can do...supplier won't upgrade it - they want them to buy an entirely new piece of kit | 11:03 |
| zmoylan-pi | 3.5" or 5.25"? :-) | 11:03 |
| TwistedLucidity | 3.5. | 11:03 |
| zmoylan-pi | 720k or 1.44mb :-D | 11:03 |
| TwistedLucidity | 1.44 | 11:04 |
| zmoylan-pi | then what are you complaining for :-P | 11:04 |
| TwistedLucidity | Oh, I don't give a crap about it. I was just pointing out that people sometimes have reasons for using out-of-date software. | 11:04 |
| diplo | Our old HR system at the last place I worked had to be upgraded by floppies :D | 11:15 |
| diplo | It was excruciating | 11:15 |
| popey | I used to update BMW dealership parts databases via floppy | 11:18 |
| popey | The parts PC (IBM PS/2 Model 50Z) was usually out in the service room, so caked in dust/smoke/crap | 11:18 |
| popey | At once dealership it wouldn't read the floppy, so we took it out and chased it around the floor with an air line to get the crud out | 11:18 |
| popey | worked perfectly after that | 11:18 |
| shauno | I have zero nostalgia for floppies. even my amiga has replaced it with a drive emulator | 11:18 |
| zmoylan-pi | we had a pc in office above engineering works. pcs kept blowing due to metal dust getting into power supply. we put pc in pair of tights with hole for floppy. worked grand | 11:29 |
| popey | hah | 11:32 |
| MooDoo | i remember working for dixons support when a lady phoned up wondering why her machine wouldn't take disk 9 of her windows 95 insallation, when the engineer got there, the back of the floppy had bust off, she was just pushing more disks into the machine and the empty space in the computer just got full :D | 11:36 |
| brobostigon | lolz. | 11:37 |
| * brobostigon makes a note of that, for future reference. | 11:38 | |
| MooDoo | :) | 11:42 |
| zmoylan-pi | i did find money had been pushed into a video point of sales system by some staff members. luckily 5 pound notes didn't catch fire on motherboard | 11:46 |
| penguin42 | slot that looks like a note slot ?! | 11:49 |
| zmoylan-pi | space between floppy drive and blanking plate for device below it | 11:50 |
| zmoylan-pi | i also had someone try to install ram in their system by pushing ram through the same space on their system | 11:51 |
| penguin42 | ?! | 11:51 |
| penguin42 | what type of place is it you work in? | 11:52 |
| zmoylan-pi | some people are not smart | 11:52 |
| shauno | penguin42: Ireland ;) | 11:52 |
| zmoylan-pi | the ram install specialists were just average home users who thought they could save money by installing it themselves | 11:52 |
| shauno | or downloading more | 11:55 |
| === alan_g is now known as alan_g|lunch | ||
| zmoylan-pi | i think one of my proudest moments was when the slowest but busiest system in the office used by a secretary wasn't going to be updated when i realised the case for the managers computer (fastest and least used) and swapped the cases :-) | 11:56 |
| TwistedLucidity | shauno: Well...technically downloading more ram is (was) possible. | 11:56 |
| TwistedLucidity | IIRC one could download a tool that allowed you to compress in RAM (maybe as a ramdisc? I'm talking ages ago), thus giving more in-RAM storage. | 11:57 |
| Myrtti | right, time to have a look at that urlwatch | 11:58 |
| TwistedLucidity | Which was more objectionable? The compression/decompression or the swap? | 11:58 |
| shauno | (osx actually does this) | 11:58 |
| zmoylan-pi | there were ram compressing tools, and the DID work but lost most of the gains by the bottle neck of the cpu utilisation | 11:58 |
| zmoylan-pi | so it ended up as fast as virtual memory | 11:58 |
| TwistedLucidity | Could probably off-load it to bespoke chips these daya | 11:59 |
| awilkins | ex-wifelet had to use floppies to transfer data off a hospital radiology system | 11:59 |
| Myrtti | can I somehow get more results of ctrl-r search on command line than just the latest? | 11:59 |
| * zmoylan-pi seems to remember that hospital systems used 2.88mb ibm floppies | 11:59 | |
| awilkins | This was standard 1.44 HD ones | 12:00 |
| zmoylan-pi | at least here in ireland for some reason | 12:00 |
| awilkins | Hospital IT is a giant seething mess of evil | 12:00 |
| awilkins | And I say that as someone who works in the sector | 12:00 |
| zmoylan-pi | yeah, they have electronic records here in ireland but the doctors prefer paper as it works and doesn't crash | 12:00 |
| zmoylan-pi | of course that means that i am the index to the huge bunch of paper that gets dragged out every time i go in | 12:01 |
| awilkins | It's the perfect storm of : enterprise level needs, risk aversity, and budget constraints | 12:01 |
| awilkins | IMHO all the records systems on the market are focussing on the wrong things | 12:02 |
| awilkins | They focus on the "clever" that computerizing records can bring to the table | 12:02 |
| TwistedLucidity | Myrtti: I've always done 'grep foo .bash_history' be great if there was a way to scroll up/down the hits | 12:02 |
| awilkins | Pretty graphs, structured records, data mining etc. | 12:02 |
| awilkins | What they really need to focus on is the core use case of medical records - communication | 12:02 |
| zmoylan-pi | they all focus on wanting to builld a monopoly (their monopoly) on storing records | 12:03 |
| awilkins | You are communicating with other clinicians, or yourself (in the future) | 12:03 |
| awilkins | zmoylan-pi, Yeah, totally agree with that | 12:03 |
| awilkins | Aided and abetted by government policy wilfully ignoring the problems this causes and instead mandating "interoperability". | 12:03 |
| TwistedLucidity | awilkins: You should listen to the episode of "Skeptic's Guide to the Universe" where Steve Novella goes off on one about hospital IT (he's an MD in the USA). | 12:05 |
| zmoylan-pi | their have been times when it got close to me having to fix the pc/showing the consultant how to use it to get my records | 12:05 |
| TwistedLucidity | zmoylan-pi: Be fair though, you did change you name by deed poll to "; Drop tables;" | 12:06 |
| awilkins | TwistedLucidity, Ta, will do that (might even punt it around the workforce for link karma if it's good) | 12:06 |
| TwistedLucidity | Basically, it was "The UI offers every option the developer could think of, rather than the ones the nurse/doctor/whomever actually needed" | 12:07 |
| zmoylan-pi | that and i always have a swiss army knife on me and knew the crap compaq mini towers they were using back to front as we used them | 12:07 |
| awilkins | Arrgh, anyone got a greasemonkey script that kills all Taboola content?!? | 12:07 |
| * awilkins hate hate hate hate hate hates it | 12:08 | |
| TwistedLucidity | Never seen it | 12:08 |
| awilkins | It's those links at the bottom of pages | 12:08 |
| TwistedLucidity | NoScript/Disconnect/etc | 12:08 |
| awilkins | "World's 10 Most Beautiful Women! 14 Times Kate Middleton was a Normal Person and Gosh Isn't That Terrible!" etc | 12:09 |
| TwistedLucidity | Err...can't say I see those. | 12:09 |
| TwistedLucidity | I really should trim down the number of blocks I have; it's a bit OTT | 12:09 |
| awilkins | Maybe they're scripted in.. | 12:09 |
| TwistedLucidity | Got an example link to a page? | 12:09 |
| awilkins | http://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu | 12:10 |
| awilkins | Everyone has them now | 12:10 |
| awilkins | It seems to have taken over as the primary way to monetize your web content | 12:10 |
| TwistedLucidity | I just see an episode list | 12:11 |
| zmoylan-pi | same her | 12:11 |
| awilkins | You're doing something right! | 12:11 |
| zmoylan-pi | *here | 12:11 |
| zmoylan-pi | are you using a lenovo? :-P | 12:11 |
| awilkins | Firefox 40 / Ubuntu 14.04 | 12:11 |
| TwistedLucidity | I run Disconnent, uBlock, NoScript, Ghostery and FlashBlock in FF; plus network blocks in DNSMasq on the router. | 12:12 |
| awilkins | Homebuilt gaming rig, definitely no Chinese malware in it | 12:12 |
| awilkins | (malware may be from Taiwan) | 12:12 |
| TwistedLucidity | Really need to tone down the blocking add-ons in FF; totally overdoing it | 12:12 |
| zmoylan-pi | ghostery and privacy badger on firefox on win8 | 12:12 |
| zmoylan-pi | ON a lenovo :-D | 12:12 |
| awilkins | I love Lenovo hardware | 12:13 |
| awilkins | I'd probably still buy them | 12:13 |
| awilkins | Which is sad | 12:13 |
| zmoylan-pi | their recent malware preinstalls are a little sad | 12:13 |
| awilkins | Recurring malware rootkit | 12:13 |
| zmoylan-pi | which left a backdoor for windows malware | 12:13 |
| awilkins | The thing that uses a bona-fide actual in-there-by-design rootkit feature in Windows is just mental. | 12:14 |
| zmoylan-pi | i really must linux this laptop... | 12:14 |
| zmoylan-pi | compared to win10 it's great :-/ | 12:14 |
| awilkins | They're backporting the snoopware from Win10 to Win7 and 8 now | 12:14 |
| awilkins | Damned if you do, damned if you don't. | 12:15 |
| zmoylan-pi | which makes it more and more imperative that i bump this laptop up to linux | 12:15 |
| awilkins | I only use WIndows for playing games now | 12:15 |
| TwistedLucidity | awilkins: Disconnect kills Taboola | 12:15 |
| awilkins | And compulsory corporate activities that require Windows-only apps | 12:15 |
| awilkins | Which is basically "MS Office" now | 12:16 |
| TwistedLucidity | Ghostery too | 12:16 |
| zmoylan-pi | i only left windows on this as i needed a nokia sync bit of software to transfer 700+ contacts from one phone to another and no other software would do it | 12:16 |
| awilkins | Hah, the same with mum's WindowsPhone | 12:16 |
| awilkins | You can only patch the OS via zTunes or whatever it's called | 12:16 |
| awilkins | I did it by installing it in a VM and passing through the USB port | 12:17 |
| zmoylan-pi | microsoft knackered the csv handling of the nokia software which used to be excellent so i had to write a perl script to convert from outlook.com csv to nokia csv | 12:17 |
| awilkins | "CSV" is just a terrible design | 12:17 |
| TwistedLucidity | CSV isn't designed | 12:17 |
| awilkins | There's no standard behaviour | 12:17 |
| awilkins | There's no standard implementation | 12:18 |
| TwistedLucidity | That's what I just said | 12:18 |
| zmoylan-pi | csv is terrible... until you compare it with the alternatives | 12:18 |
| awilkins | And it's not simple enough - too many edge cases | 12:18 |
| awilkins | The Unix way is, of course, better | 12:19 |
| awilkins | Three characters - one escape char, one field separator, one record separator | 12:19 |
| zmoylan-pi | i like csv but i do like when the software i'm dealing with isn't stupid | 12:19 |
| awilkins | > http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/ch05s02.html | 12:19 |
| awilkins | I've been using cookie-jar for a lot of data conversions recently after writing a small Python program that can grok it one afternoon | 12:20 |
| awilkins | Or "record-jar" | 12:20 |
| awilkins | Just turns each record into a dict and lets you iterate over them | 12:20 |
| awilkins | Easy to write, easy to process, easy to hack around not-quite-proper data with a text editor or shell tools | 12:21 |
| awilkins | JSON and XML are nice when the data is well curated, but for quick and dirty, you want things you can manipulate with grep sed and awk | 12:22 |
| awilkins | With CSV the thing that causes trouble is the way that various implementations quote text fields | 12:25 |
| zmoylan-pi | it can get /messy/ but as long as they don't make a complete haims of it you can usually make it work | 12:28 |
| maps | hi;] | 12:36 |
| === alan_g|lunch is now known as alan_g | ||
| webpigeon | awilkins++ for record-jar | 14:00 |
| === alan_g is now known as alan_g|EOD | ||
| === Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away | ||
| diddledan | daftykins: looks like you're atracting the crazies today | 18:43 |
| daftykins | heh | 18:43 |
| daftykins | somehow this user lost their /home/username entirely so my attempts to ask for a pastebin of ls -al ~/ failed | 18:44 |
| diddledan | yeah, he/she seems rather lost | 18:44 |
| diddledan | grr, I hate that "I got ubuntu 15 installed" | 18:46 |
| diddledan | 15 isn't a valid release | 18:46 |
| daftykins | or 14.4 | 18:46 |
| daftykins | :> | 18:46 |
| diddledan | yeah that's horrid | 18:46 |
| diddledan | worse is 14.1 | 18:47 |
| shauno | I'm a bad nerd :( I went to Maplin | 18:50 |
| daftykins | hehehe | 18:50 |
| daftykins | do you have many things you don't need, now? | 18:50 |
| shauno | nah, they price themselves out of spree territory | 18:51 |
| daftykins | ah | 18:53 |
| daftykins | i remember popping in the one in Brighton once or twice and being horrified at the ridiculous kinds of things you get in there | 18:54 |
| daftykins | contraptions that solve problems for folk who are doing it wrong to begin with :D | 18:54 |
| shauno | yes, that's why I go there :) | 18:54 |
| daftykins | XD | 18:54 |
| daftykins | think i saw a £90 Pi starter kit once | 18:55 |
| penguin42 | it's good to look around and have a delve in their junk bins | 18:55 |
| shauno | yeah they have that fuze one in there, which is the wrong side of 200e | 18:56 |
| shauno | which is a pretty uninspired kit but mounted into a metal chassis that makes it look like the kinda computer zmoylan would pine for | 18:57 |
| daftykins | :D | 18:58 |
| * penguin42 remembers a bunch of us in a Pizza express in ~2000 saying that if it were run by Maplin we'd have to assemble the pizza from 3 different stores to get all the bits we needed | 19:00 | |
| shauno | of course, now that I've finally bothered to go pick up some blank cds, I can't find my burner anywhere | 19:03 |
| m0nkey_ | Evening | 19:05 |
| penguin42 | shauno: Above your zip drive | 19:08 |
| shauno | hm. that cheap, ancient mac mini I picked up. I'd never thought to test the cd drive in it | 19:20 |
| shauno | it works, but I'm sure the neighbours can hear it working | 19:20 |
| foobarry | what do you do with the mac mini shauno ? runit like a rasp pi? | 19:54 |
| daftykins | where i taught was a nightmare with optical drives for the training network | 19:59 |
| daftykins | if it wasn't them dying, it was the old hard disks | 19:59 |
| daftykins | then you'd get a student pranking another by flicking the 110/230V PSU switch | 20:00 |
| shauno | trying to install amigaos on it foobarry, so I just needed anything that was ppc and common | 20:01 |
| foobarry | i have one too | 20:03 |
| foobarry | do the games all work? | 20:04 |
| shauno | I'm nowhere near that yet. still trying to get it to use the bootloader off a harddrive :/ | 20:06 |
| foobarry | are you following a howot? | 20:07 |
| foobarry | howto? | 20:07 |
| shauno | not really. I haven't found a whole lot useful | 20:07 |
| shauno | there's people discussing how to get the bootloader onto the CD so that you can boot into the installer | 20:07 |
| foobarry | oh | 20:07 |
| foobarry | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx3uszPPARA | 20:08 |
| foobarry | he talks too much | 20:08 |
| shauno | and then it just goes quiet. so for what goes next, "fumbling" | 20:08 |
| foobarry | should be 10 mins long | 20:08 |
| shauno | yeah. and he's got it on supported hardware, so it's point and click | 20:08 |
| foobarry | oh its MONEY | 20:08 |
| foobarry | non free | 20:09 |
| shauno | but those amigaone boxes are silly expensive | 20:09 |
| shauno | 2125 gbp for the supported hardware. | 20:10 |
| foobarry | did you buy the OS? | 20:10 |
| daftykins | as in 2 grand? | 20:10 |
| daftykins | O_O | 20:10 |
| shauno | yes, as in 2 grand. or 3 in euro. | 20:11 |
| shauno | for a 500MHz g4. | 20:11 |
| foobarry | had more fun putting riscOS on a pi | 20:11 |
| daftykins | heh | 20:11 |
| shauno | which is why I'm trying to force it onto the mini instead :) | 20:11 |
| foobarry | i have an old gnatbox gb1000 firewall, rackmountable etc. might put pfsense on it | 20:11 |
| shauno | (and no, I haven't bought the OS. I likely will if I can get it to boot, because I'm weird. but no boot, no moneys) | 20:12 |
| foobarry | i don't begrudge buying software, since i buy games. | 20:14 |
| foobarry | but as a long time acorn, then linux guy, with solaris in betwen, buying an OS feel wrong | 20:14 |
| daftykins | ah i had acorns at secondary school | 20:15 |
| foobarry | obviously using a paid OS without paying feels wrong too | 20:15 |
| daftykins | you'd have 4 banks of ~5 or 6 machines in a room, with a SCSI hard disk per bank that all of them ran the software off | 20:15 |
| foobarry | yeah, it was great | 20:16 |
| foobarry | "econet" | 20:16 |
| daftykins | amusingly said HDDs were shared off the slowest ones they had | 20:16 |
| diddledan | ooh yeah that's funkynuts | 20:16 |
| daftykins | and naturally, being used directly they crawled even more | 20:16 |
| diddledan | I've been fiddling with cygwin | 20:16 |
| shauno | I dunno. I think amiga's niche enough that it has to come from somewhere if we want anything new | 20:16 |
| daftykins | right at the end there were a couple of A7000s which were quite nippy | 20:16 |
| shauno | I mean, it's not like they're going to be able to survive of corporate support contracts for it | 20:16 |
| diddledan | I've managed to got X running seamlessly and now it autostarts with no indication that it's running | 20:16 |
| foobarry | for sure, i don't begrudge them asking money. baby needs shoes etc | 20:17 |
| diddledan | so my X clients appear seamlessly in my windows desktop and I have no evidence that they're X | 20:17 |
| foobarry | but usually they are pet honny projects | 20:17 |
| foobarry | diddledan: i did that once | 20:17 |
| foobarry | then found xming | 20:17 |
| foobarry | then found mobaxterm which works even better | 20:18 |
| penguin42 | diddledan: Yeh I remember that from years ago, neat setup | 20:19 |
| shauno | that's the big problem I guess. it pretty much is a hobby project, except the folks that hold the amiga licence are still trying to milk it | 20:20 |
| foobarry | oh, i think there was a simliar thing with riscos | 20:20 |
| daftykins | diddledan: what provides that o0 | 20:20 |
| foobarry | until recently | 20:20 |
| daftykins | oh cygwin | 20:20 |
| daftykins | i thought that was an oft hated thing :D | 20:20 |
| shauno | life's too short for cygwin :p | 20:20 |
| shauno | get ye to the putty | 20:20 |
| foobarry | https://www.riscosopen.org/content/downloads | 20:20 |
| foobarry | shauno: mobaxterm is putty on steroid | 20:21 |
| daftykins | nay, KiTTY! :) | 20:21 |
| daftykins | URL parsing \o/ | 20:21 |
| diddledan | see I want more than just an ssh client | 20:21 |
| foobarry | it features a x server and graphical sftp | 20:21 |
| daftykins | except for .wiki, it goes as far as .wi - needs an improved regex i think | 20:21 |
| diddledan | I want a full posix stack | 20:21 |
| * foobarry wonders if he is on ignore | 20:21 | |
| foobarry | :P | 20:21 |
| daftykins | foobarry: i can see you! :) | 20:21 |
| foobarry | diddledan: oh , in that case you are twisted | 20:21 |
| foobarry | i had a colleague who insisted that the best OS was windows 2k + cygwin | 20:21 |
| shauno | yeah I saw mobaxterm. it's got way too much gui for my liking | 20:22 |
| diddledan | also client-hyper-v on windows is fun | 20:23 |
| foobarry | home PC wars (acorn vs amiga vs atari) still continue in the form of android vs apple vs other <1% share OS | 20:23 |
| foobarry | and MS vs MacOS vs Linux | 20:24 |
| diddledan | foobarry, zx | 20:24 |
| diddledan | speccies ftw | 20:24 |
| foobarry | ah yeah, primary school battles | 20:24 |
| foobarry | commodore vs bbc/electorn vs speccy | 20:24 |
| foobarry | i always felt acorn a natural predecssor of linux | 20:25 |
| foobarry | due to the hobbyist roots | 20:25 |
| foobarry | and useful cli | 20:25 |
| shauno | I never realised atari vs amiga was a battle at the time | 20:25 |
| daftykins | i don't even recall finding a CLI in school time o0 | 20:25 |
| shauno | it was like .. amiga was for people, and atari was for people with a weird midi fetish. | 20:26 |
| daftykins | was quite amusing a mate getting kicked off them by those in higher years, in order to play the game he wrote in BASIC | 20:26 |
| foobarry | in house game or commercial? | 20:27 |
| daftykins | something he did himself ja (if that was for me) | 20:27 |
| penguin42 | my 1st job was writing Beeb code | 20:28 |
| daftykins | it was space invaders with 3D looking ships, very neat - used a lot of circlefill iirc | 20:28 |
| daftykins | er not really space invaders actually, as there was only one or two and you | 20:28 |
| foobarry | i wrote a library management system in basic | 20:31 |
| foobarry | including checksum checking on ISBN numbers | 20:31 |
| foobarry | basically a database | 20:31 |
| foobarry | probably my finest hour when it comes to programming | 20:31 |
| daftykins | all downhill from there? :D | 20:32 |
| foobarry | struggled a bit with programming at uni | 20:32 |
| foobarry | i was partying while my course buddies were staying all night in the labs | 20:33 |
| shauno | hah! the disk formatting finally went from 0% to 1%. so it is moving | 20:33 |
| foobarry | i got a good degree and they scraped but became good programmers | 20:33 |
| daftykins | i got very frustrated at the effort to reward ratio involved with the java we were forced to do | 20:34 |
| daftykins | never really got a book and tried to learn properly either | 20:34 |
| daftykins | i stubbornly wanted to do the things i was already good at and skipped the new things :D | 20:34 |
| shauno | I think I would have preferred java. we uesd pascal :/ | 20:35 |
| daftykins | hrmm | 20:35 |
| daftykins | there was a bit of C to start with mind you | 20:36 |
| foobarry | like learning the guitar. when i realised i wouldn't be awesome, i stopped and continued something i would excel in | 20:36 |
| daftykins | had the intro lesson of hello world, then the assignment was set "write the game Othello in C with multiplayer networking" | 20:36 |
| penguin42 | shaunp: (* Yeh we were first taught pascal *) | 20:36 |
| daftykins | that shot a lot of peoples confidence :> | 20:36 |
| penguin42 | daftykins: haha | 20:36 |
| diddledan | shauno, we did pascal, too | 20:37 |
| daftykins | me included, i had no clue | 20:37 |
| penguin42 | but I'd already done BASIC and asm before getting taught stuff | 20:37 |
| daftykins | in lab sessions you'd ask the PhD students for some help, they'd come over and define a bunch of variables in main, then leave you with an infinitely repeating spam output =| | 20:37 |
| daftykins | anywho i ramble on :> | 20:38 |
| shauno | aha, landscape just maild me a security update. so it is fixed. sweet :) | 20:45 |
| diddledan | it's fixed? | 20:46 |
| diddledan | how that happen? | 20:46 |
| shauno | I unconfused rabbit | 20:46 |
| shauno | I still have almost no idea what rabbit is :/ | 20:47 |
| penguin42 | shauno: as in rabbitmq? | 20:48 |
| shauno | yeah | 20:48 |
| penguin42 | message queue isn't it? | 20:48 |
| shauno | right, that's what it says on the can | 20:48 |
| penguin42 | shauno: I think it's something you can queue stuff in with the guaranteee they'll come out once and only once however badly the system screws up | 20:49 |
| diddledan | I think it guarantees ordering even with multiple consumers and providers | 20:50 |
| shauno | well, I set it to use the same hostname as lds is using, and then re-did the permissions | 20:51 |
| shauno | omg my pizza guy is so lost | 20:55 |
| diddledan | \o/ | 20:55 |
| shauno | we have a weird mess here where the major roads are named after where they go | 20:56 |
| shauno | so dublin road, headford road, monivea road, all go .. well, those directions | 20:57 |
| shauno | so, my pizza is in headford. not headford road. | 20:57 |
| shauno | which is to say, he got onto the right road, and then followed it to the next town | 20:57 |
| penguin42 | yeh we have some of those | 20:59 |
| daftykins | shauno: what do they do in such situations? give up? :) | 22:05 |
| zmoylan-pi | and i admit i did look at the fuze and like it :-D | 22:05 |
| daftykins | hehehe | 22:05 |
| zmoylan-pi | but too pricey | 22:05 |
| zmoylan-pi | am tempted to get original broken bbc and slap a pi in | 22:06 |
| zmoylan-pi | some of those 80s keyboards are pure beauty... barring the zx spectrum of course :-D | 22:06 |
| daftykins | :) | 22:06 |
| penguin42 | that would be very nasty to a Beeb | 22:07 |
| daftykins | i seem to remember having a BBC in the corner of the room in around Year 1 or 2 of primary school, was practically neglected from what i recall | 22:07 |
| zmoylan-pi | if it resurrects a dead one it will be at least a frankenbeeb | 22:07 |
| penguin42 | you could run my beeb emulator on it | 22:07 |
| zmoylan-pi | i was thinking riscos for superduperness | 22:07 |
| penguin42 | that would be odd | 22:08 |
| zmoylan-pi | and irk any ocd people i know :-D | 22:08 |
| penguin42 | you'd almost make it sane running Arthur on an ARM copro on a beeb, but still | 22:09 |
| === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte | ||
| === Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away | ||
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!