| cmaloney | evening | 00:08 |
|---|---|---|
| rick_h_ | evening | 00:19 |
| cmaloney | how goes? | 00:22 |
| greg-g | yo yo | 00:23 |
| brousch | Hm, U-M has 2 Coursera courses: Python and web design. Python course is from Charles Severance | 10:42 |
| brousch | https://www.coursera.org/browse/computer-science | 10:42 |
| cmaloney | Morning | 10:59 |
| brousch | yes | 11:59 |
| jrwren | pretty sure you know python better than any course could teach you. | 13:15 |
| jrwren | then again, its college, so some of the general compsci might be good. | 13:16 |
| jrwren | i don't remember if you were a compsci major, brousch ? | 13:16 |
| mrgoodcat | i occasionally run through a course like that just to see. sometimes you learn little things like syntax shortcuts and such | 13:20 |
| jrwren | good point. | 13:21 |
| jrwren | there are a lot of python syntax shortcuts I never mastered because python2 is still a thing :( | 13:21 |
| * jrwren rages against python2 | 13:21 | |
| mrgoodcat | i use py3 when i can | 13:22 |
| mrgoodcat | i dislike that python2 is still teh default python in most distros | 13:22 |
| jrwren | mrgoodcat: you'll love ubuntu wiley :) | 13:23 |
| brousch | jrwren: I didn't take anything above CS 200 level courses. I have a BS in Anthropology | 13:23 |
| jrwren | mrgoodcat: less than 4 weeks away! | 13:23 |
| jrwren | brousch: ah, then algorthims stuff in a college course would likely be great. | 13:23 |
| mrgoodcat | jrwren: can't wait :) | 13:23 |
| brousch | I don't plan on taking the courses, I just find it interesting what U-M is up to these days | 13:23 |
| mrgoodcat | although the only ubuntu i use has been lts as of late | 13:24 |
| jrwren | brousch: oh, u-m is still all c++ afaik | 13:24 |
| mrgoodcat | so i have to wait for 16.04 | 13:24 |
| jrwren | then again, it has been a few years since I met any students or recent graduates. | 13:24 |
| mrgoodcat | i'm a student | 13:24 |
| jrwren | mrgoodcat: at umich? | 13:24 |
| mrgoodcat | no | 13:24 |
| mrgoodcat | but that wasn't what you said | 13:24 |
| jrwren | context. | 13:25 |
| brousch | I am weak in algorithms and design patterns | 13:25 |
| brousch | I thought U-M was moving to Java when I left in 1999 | 13:28 |
| mrgoodcat | likely they were | 13:29 |
| jrwren | brousch: design patterns are just knowing names for things. Its like knowing the names of birds. Its only useful if it is useful. | 13:29 |
| mrgoodcat | most schools i know of are java now | 13:29 |
| mrgoodcat | although usually there is still some c++ required | 13:29 |
| jrwren | brousch: they definitely were not in the early 2000s. They were c++. I know a handful of grads who finished in '05 and they were very good c++ devs. | 13:30 |
| jrwren | I was impressed because most kids coming out of college think they can code and think they know c++, but really don't. These kids were the real deal. | 13:30 |
| jrwren | Then again, c++ now is quite a bit different than c++ 10 years gao :) | 13:31 |
| jrwren | *ago | 13:31 |
| cmaloney | I still don't know Design patterns | 13:32 |
| cmaloney | at least the name of things | 13:32 |
| cmaloney | Every time I start reading about them I get bored and drift off | 13:32 |
| jrwren | cmaloney: they are exceptionally dull | 13:32 |
| jrwren | and knowing more than a few of them is utterly useless | 13:32 |
| jrwren | many of them are language specific. | 13:33 |
| cmaloney | Yeah | 13:33 |
| cmaloney | Same with knowing bird taxonomy | 13:33 |
| jrwren | e.g. Observer Pattern in C# is implemented in the language - its called events. | 13:33 |
| jrwren | haha, birds. | 13:33 |
| jrwren | i see a black bird, and I say, hi black bird. I see a blue bird, and I say hi blue bird. and so on... | 13:34 |
| jrwren | I think knowing antipatterns is more useful than knowing design patterns. | 13:35 |
| brousch | EECS 281 (Data structures and Algorithms) kicked my butt twice. I hated memory management (C/C++) and pointers. these are the primary things that kept me from getting to 300 level CS courses | 13:35 |
| cmaloney | I get that we need to have lingua franca and what-not, but I'll be damned if I'll pull "Observer Pattern" out of something that's "Event driven" | 13:35 |
| cmaloney | memory management is tricky stuff. Even the computer doesn't get it right | 13:35 |
| brousch | this is why I use Python now, but I'm not really an awesome programmer | 13:36 |
| cmaloney | "Did you free that memory?" "0" "Does that mean yes?" "Banana!" | 13:36 |
| jrwren | all the recent c++ trends agree. its considered bad form to use new and delete yourself now. | 13:37 |
| jrwren | C++ folks have basically said, memory management is hard. | 13:37 |
| cmaloney | "Yo! I heard you liked releasing memory so I free'd the free'd the free'd the free'd the SEGFAULT" | 13:37 |
| cmaloney | Hah | 13:38 |
| cmaloney | jrwren: How times change | 13:38 |
| cmaloney | 1990 / 2000 was all about that destructor | 13:38 |
| jrwren | cmaloney: well, its also a different world. 20yrs ago when I started c/c++, most programs weren't long lived. they'd run, do their thing and terminate. Now everythign is a long time running server. | 13:39 |
| jrwren | cmaloney: oh, the destructor is still there and important, afaik. you just won't call delete from it :) | 13:39 |
| cmaloney | heh | 13:39 |
| cmaloney | Been a while since I looked at C++ | 13:39 |
| cmaloney | I need to give it a peek again | 13:39 |
| cmaloney | see if it makes my stomach churn | 13:40 |
| jrwren | cmaloney: just be careful where you look. there is a lot of bad info, bad advice out there. | 13:40 |
| cmaloney | I wouldn't look at a book prior to 2010 | 13:40 |
| jrwren | Bjarn actually said this in his cppcon talk | 13:40 |
| cmaloney | and certainly not Bjarne's book | 13:40 |
| jrwren | :) | 13:40 |
| jrwren | EffectiveC++ then? | 13:40 |
| cmaloney | possibly | 13:40 |
| cmaloney | I think I have that laying around | 13:40 |
| cmaloney | Picked up a decent looking C++ Games book | 13:41 |
| cmaloney | http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Through-Programming-Fourth-Edition-ebook/dp/B00LZW07P0 | 13:42 |
| cmaloney | "4.0 out of 5 starsI'd say taht this is a good, a realy good" | 13:43 |
| cmaloney | Can't go wrong with that review | 13:43 |
| jrwren | why a game programming book? | 13:44 |
| cmaloney | I like games? :) | 13:44 |
| cmaloney | Plus it doesn't teach a library, all of the games are text-based | 13:45 |
| cmaloney | so you're not fighting with something like Unity3d while learning hte language | 13:45 |
| jrwren | ha, timely: https://twitter.com/wc_duck/status/646957178235035649 | 13:46 |
| cmaloney | heh | 13:47 |
| jrwren | for the record: I'm a total c++ n00b. | 13:49 |
| cmaloney | The syntax put me off | 13:49 |
| jrwren | really? | 13:49 |
| jrwren | well, it is hard to beat python. | 13:50 |
| cmaloney | It just felt like it was bastardized C to me | 13:50 |
| cmaloney | I find C can be quite beautiful | 13:50 |
| cmaloney | C++ felt like a lot of boilerplate | 13:51 |
| cmaloney | similar to Java | 13:51 |
| jrwren | so, that is kind of what bjarne said in that same keynote. | 13:52 |
| jrwren | he said most c++ is bad. | 13:52 |
| jrwren | he said clases are overused, there is a reason c++ has functions just like C | 13:52 |
| jrwren | he said a lot of c++ devs go out their way to use all htese complex features when simple things would work. | 13:52 |
| cmaloney | Did he fall on his sword because that's what it sounds like. ;) | 13:53 |
| jrwren | :) | 13:56 |
| jrwren | I think he more cried, "its not my fault everyone else sucks." | 13:56 |
| cmaloney | heh | 13:56 |
| mrgoodcat | after lots of work i finally reduced my vimrc to 72 lines (only 27 of which are actually directives) and got rid of all vim plugins | 14:23 |
| mrgoodcat | removed all the old crufty crap that i installed, used once, and forgot about | 14:23 |
| cmaloney | heh | 14:23 |
| mrgoodcat | my vimrc also has a comment for every single directive now | 14:23 |
| cmaloney | " This sets the value of a to 42 | 14:23 |
| mrgoodcat | lol | 14:23 |
| mrgoodcat | some of them are simple like that | 14:23 |
| cmaloney | "This ensures that something down the chain works. Fuck if I know what it actually does | 14:24 |
| cmaloney | " This sends my bank information to the IRS, FBI, and NDA | 14:24 |
| cmaloney | NSA | 14:24 |
| cmaloney | hah, NDA my ass | 14:24 |
| mrgoodcat | https://github.com/dyladan/dotfiles/blob/master/vimrc | 14:25 |
| jrwren | I should probably do that. | 14:25 |
| mrgoodcat | it feels nice | 14:25 |
| jrwren | i bet I have 27 color directives commented out, so that I know what color options are available | 14:26 |
| mrgoodcat | like replacing all your socks and getting all matching pairs | 14:26 |
| mrgoodcat | i think line 17 and 23 are my most used | 14:27 |
| cmaloney | You can do that? | 14:27 |
| mrgoodcat | imap jk <esc>`^:%s/ \+$//eg<return>`^:w<return> | 14:27 |
| mrgoodcat | imap kj <esc> | 14:27 |
| mrgoodcat | jk leaves insert mode, removes trailing spaces, and saves | 14:27 |
| mrgoodcat | kj just leaves insert mode | 14:27 |
| mrgoodcat | screw reaching for esc | 14:27 |
| jrwren | i would hit that all teh time navigating up and down lines. | 14:28 |
| _stink_ | doesn't rick_h_ use jj or something? | 14:28 |
| _stink_ | for esc | 14:28 |
| mrgoodcat | jrwren: not in insert mode you wouldn't | 14:28 |
| rick_h_ | _stink_: yes, in zsh and in vim | 14:28 |
| rick_h_ | ftw | 14:28 |
| rick_h_ | yes in insert mode | 14:28 |
| rick_h_ | and it's awesome, home row and one char ftw | 14:29 |
| jrwren | map esc to ` as god and the terminal on which vi was written intended :) | 14:29 |
| jrwren | err, tab. | 14:29 |
| rick_h_ | heh, except ~ moves on keyboards, especially kenisis/etc | 14:29 |
| jrwren | maybe it was tab location is esc? | 14:29 |
| rick_h_ | esc was where tab or caps lock was on that terminal | 14:29 |
| rick_h_ | so it was close/on home row | 14:30 |
| rick_h_ | jj is awesome, there's like 3 words that use that | 14:30 |
| rick_h_ | and if you do NEED a jj you just type it slowly | 14:30 |
| mrgoodcat | jk and kj are the best | 14:30 |
| mrgoodcat | and in insert mode i'm not using them to move | 14:30 |
| rick_h_ | there's a timer on that for 100ms or something | 14:30 |
| _stink_ | what words use jj? | 14:30 |
| mrgoodcat | very few if any | 14:30 |
| * cmaloney still needs to get rick_h_ a proper ADM terminal | 14:30 | |
| rick_h_ | mrgoodcat: nope, why two fingers? when you can do one? | 14:30 |
| jrwren | there is no except. look at the keyboard as it was on a adm-3a, make your KB the same. then vi is usable | 14:30 |
| mrgoodcat | rick_h_: can hit faster with two | 14:30 |
| jrwren | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-3A the KB used to write vi | 14:31 |
| rick_h_ | mrgoodcat: with proper keys I disagree | 14:31 |
| rick_h_ | you're not taking your finger off | 14:31 |
| cmaloney | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-3A | 14:31 |
| cmaloney | ;) | 14:31 |
| mrgoodcat | roll right for save roll left for not save | 14:31 |
| mrgoodcat | can hit the second key while key 1 is still down | 14:31 |
| mrgoodcat | hitting them at pretty much the same time | 14:31 |
| * jrwren maps tab to esc :) | 14:31 | |
| * cmaloney looks for the "Here is" key | 14:31 | |
| rick_h_ | jrwren: how do you tab in code then? | 14:32 |
| jrwren | rick_h_: i'd never do that. gofmt does it for me :) | 14:32 |
| rick_h_ | jrwren: ugh | 14:32 |
| jrwren | ctrl-i maybe :) | 14:32 |
| rick_h_ | insanity | 14:32 |
| cmaloney | Or you use CTRL-I | 14:32 |
| cmaloney | Dammt | 14:32 |
| rick_h_ | lol | 14:32 |
| cmaloney | jrwen is jinxing me | 14:32 |
| rick_h_ | once you go jj you never go back :P | 14:32 |
| jrwren | rick_h_: gofmt is opoiste of insanity. imagine all pep8 violations being automatically resolved on every file save. its glorious | 14:33 |
| jrwren | unfortunately, nothing fixes my spelling. opposite? | 14:33 |
| rick_h_ | http://www.wordfind.com/contains/jj/ | 14:33 |
| jrwren | grep jj /usr/share/dict/words | 14:33 |
| jrwren | jk is in Dijkstra :) | 14:33 |
| jrwren | jj wins. | 14:34 |
| cmaloney | rick_h_: I hope you never have a Scandanavian employee. :) | 14:34 |
| mrgoodcat | http://www.wordfind.com/contains/jk/ | 14:34 |
| mrgoodcat | 1 word | 14:34 |
| mrgoodcat | 3 contain kj | 14:34 |
| jrwren | more than 3 | 14:36 |
| jrwren | well, blackjack, lockjaw, and some propernames. | 14:36 |
| mrgoodcat | wordfind didn't find blackjack | 14:37 |
| mrgoodcat | interesting | 14:37 |
| mrgoodcat | did find inkjet though | 14:37 |
| * rick_h_ claims enough old man greybeard cli points to guffaw at alternatives to jj :P | 14:38 | |
| rick_h_ | without any data other than experience | 14:38 |
| cmaloney | funnily enough I knew a gent who had an IRC nick with jj in it | 14:39 |
| * cmaloney remembers simpler times when sending +++ over IRC would reset some stupider modems | 14:40 | |
| jrwren | ha, inkjet isn't in dict/words :) | 14:40 |
| cmaloney | NOCARRIER | 14:40 |
| rick_h_ | cmaloney: you'd tab complete that anyway and never type it :P | 14:41 |
| rick_h_ | boom! | 14:41 |
| cmaloney | Well, it also assumes you're using IRC from vim in insert mmode | 14:41 |
| cmaloney | so MMMOOOOOOBBB | 14:41 |
| mrgoodcat | yea | 14:46 |
| cmaloney | Shigeto - There Is Always Hope (Mux Mool Remix) | 15:27 |
| cmaloney | ^ hearing an echoey voice saying "Michigan michigan michigan..." | 15:27 |
| cmaloney | Thanks Soma.fm | 15:27 |
| cmaloney | also: have a replacement for how I use last.fm | 15:28 |
| jrwren | so... we went from no python podcasts, to a new one every month, it seems. | 16:46 |
| jrwren | anyone want to start a python podcast? | 16:46 |
| cmaloney | heh | 16:54 |
| === SneakyPh1l is now known as SneakyPhil | ||
| cmaloney | I think I've hit mini-rick_h_ | 17:38 |
| rick_h_ | ? | 17:38 |
| cmaloney | I have multiple tmux sessions, each full-screen, with multiple panes in each. | 17:38 |
| jrwren | but all one tmux server? | 17:39 |
| cmaloney | Each is it's own server | 17:39 |
| jrwren | ah. bummer. that sounds rough | 17:41 |
| cmaloney | Nah, it's quite cool | 17:42 |
| cmaloney | No complaints, or I wouldn't do it | 17:42 |
| brousch | What the ... https://blog.adafruit.com/2015/09/23/a-breadboard-for-pebble-smartstrap-lovers-wearablewednesday/ | 22:12 |
| cmaloney | That is awesome. | 22:45 |
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