[07:59] <flocculant> bluesabre: just installed pcmanfm and caja - not restoring from wastebasket in either of those 
[08:00] <flocculant> in addition caja really hates being closed and just restarts itself :D
[08:16] <ochosi> hehe
[08:16] <ochosi> so this is really a very general regression in gvfs then
[08:17] <ochosi> if one of you is around during the day tomorrow you could ping seb128 or Laney and let them know about the bug
[08:17] <ochosi> it's really odd though that nobody else would've noticed...
[08:17] <ochosi> bluesabre, flocculant ^
[08:17] <flocculant> indeed
[08:18] <flocculant> I'll do it the other way later - install thunar/pcfmanfm and caja in ubuntu vm 
[08:41] <ochosi> thanks flocculant 
[08:41] <flocculant> np
[08:55] <flocculant> ochosi bluesabre - ok so installed thunar, pcmanfm and caja in ubuntu daily - same issue (Which I expected)
[08:56] <flocculant> bluesabre: also - installing thunar in ubuntu - not able to get to it from the dash (search thingummy) it just appears to show thunar-volman (possibly the issue that we had with 2 thunars in menulibre) do you want me to report that? 
[08:58] <flocculant> flexiondotorg: just fyi - caja in ubuntu sees the restore from trash fail 
[12:43] <bluesabre> flocculant: yeah, that's likely the same issue
[12:43] <bluesabre> flocculant: can probably launch it as file manager, maybe
[12:55] <bluesabre> and morning all
[12:57] <knome> what's up bluesabre 
[12:57] <bluesabre> not much
[12:57] <flocculant> morning both :)
[12:57] <knome> heya flocculant 
[12:57] <knome> slow sunday then
[12:57] <bluesabre> just waking up
[12:57] <bluesabre> hi flocculant 
[12:57] <flocculant> bluesabre: yea - probably - but wasn't that bothered tbh :D
[13:00] <bluesabre> :)
[13:00] <flocculant> knome: slower now - was a bit busy :)
[13:01] <knome> flocculant, oh
[13:02] <knome> been really slow for me :P
[13:02] <flocculant> :)
[13:02] <knome> woke up late, then have eaten lunch...
[13:02] <knome> watched some telly, playing tetris
[13:02] <knome> :D
[13:03] <flocculant> :D
[13:05] <knome> you know, the usual sunday stuff
[13:05] <knome> next i think coffee
[13:05] <knome> and some more food
[13:13] <flocculant> that sounds like a good sunday plan ;)
[13:13] <knome> totally
[13:13] <knome> and what kind of plans do you have there?
[13:14] <flocculant> book to pretend to read, an hour of procrastination for this blog post I'm doing, some music to listen to, some more food, beer and feet up :D
[13:15] <knome> lol
[13:15] <knome> not a bad plan either
[13:15] <flocculant> :)
[13:18] <flocculant> ochosi bluesabre - whoever pings seb or laney re the restore bug might do the same with the gvfs one, I'd probably think that more important than fiddling with deleted stuff :p
[13:51] <bluesabre> flocculant: found an interesting bug, probably related @bar(input):button2
[13:51] <bluesabre> sorry about that, failed paste
[13:51] <bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gvfs/+bug/1495943
[13:54] <bluesabre> in fact, I'd say thats the same bug with more details
[13:56] <flocculant> yep
[13:59] <flocculant> marked mine as duplicate
[14:06] <flocculant> and yea - log out and you can restore files previously deleted 
[14:46] <bluesabre> flocculant: thanks
[14:53] <flocculant> np
[14:56] <bluesabre> going to take a look at the gmb crash today
[14:56] <bluesabre> see if I can get to the bottom of it
[14:59] <flocculant> ok 
[14:59] <flocculant> I did have a look after Simon prompting to see if changing backend made a difference - but no change
[15:00] <bluesabre> flocculant: from gstreamer to mplayer?
[15:01] <flocculant> yea - he thought it might be similar to something else - can't remember offhand now what :D
[15:01] <bluesabre> darn
[15:01] <bluesabre> it'd be similar to the parole issue with dereferencing on close
[15:01] <flocculant> yep - I tried mplayer and mpg123 as well 
[15:01] <bluesabre> but since its not gstreamer, nope
[15:02] <bluesabre> will be more fun to debug
[15:02] <flocculant> yea - that was the offhand bit I didn't remember :D
[15:04] <flocculant> bluesabre: there is a bug reported 
[15:05] <bluesabre> flocculant: have the link for that?
[15:05] <flocculant> bug 1401609 
[15:05] <flocculant> sorry :p
[15:06] <flocculant> when I apported it - but didn't report I got the same gmusicbrowser crashed with SIGSEGV in g_signal_emit_valist() 
[15:06] <flocculant> so just tagged that vivid bug with wily
[15:07] <flocculant> bluesabre: simon put a backtrace in one of the dupes if that helps - 1435043
[15:09] <flocculant> mmm 
[15:09] <flocculant> bluesabre: just read a comment in that one ^^ - which I can seem to reproduce 
[15:10] <flocculant> just doing a bit more mucking about here
[15:10] <bluesabre> about the crash only happening in shimmer layout?
[15:11] <flocculant> yea
[15:11] <flocculant> it did close without crash
[15:11] <flocculant> now it doesn't
[15:12] <flocculant> mmm 
[15:12] <flocculant> ok this is odd 
[15:13] <flocculant> any sort of layout other than Lists, Library & Context and it crashes
[15:14] <flocculant> opened and closed a dozen times in that layout - no crashes
[15:15] <flocculant> bluesabre: don't know if that's much help or just more facepalming for you - but it's what I got to give ;)
[15:21] <bluesabre> flocculant: I think that helps
[15:22] <bluesabre> thanks!
[15:22] <flocculant> np
[15:27] <flocculant> bluesabre: ok - so can confirm that behaviour in live daily - but it's not as simple as 1 works others don't 
[15:27] <flocculant> if it helps I can list which work 
[15:31] <bluesabre> flocculant: sure
[15:31] <bluesabre> gotta run to the store to pick up some light bulbs quickly
[15:31] <bluesabre> bbiab
[15:40] <andrzejr> ochosi, done
[15:46] <flocculant> bluesabre: here you go then - http://pastebin.com/Q4JWrDvu
[15:46] <flocculant> bbl
[16:02] <bluesabre> yay, I can see again
[16:03] <bluesabre> flocculant: oh wow
[16:06] <flocculant> hopefully - that's enough opening and closing to prove things work when they do :D
[16:06] <bluesabre> :D
[16:07] <knome> geezers
[16:08] <drc> yes?
[16:08] <knome> maybe it's a certain layout function that breaks it
[16:08] <flocculant> drc: ha ha 
[16:09] <flocculant> bluesabre: set default one that works and walk away backwards - telling to good gmb, good gmb as you do so :D
[16:09] <flocculant> s/to/it
[16:11] <bluesabre> :D
[16:11] <flocculant> anyway - hope that helps some :)
[16:28] <pleia2> knome: can you add this to the static repo? http://static.xubuntu.org/news/
[16:29]  * pleia2 continues checking for anything missing
[16:31] <knome> pleia2, pushing right now
[16:31] <knome> (and yeah, i totally need to make the internet switch)
[16:31] <pleia2> ty <3
[16:31] <pleia2> I think that's the only thing that was missing
[16:31] <knome> ok
[16:32] <pleia2> once that change syncs, I'll blow away the current /srv/static.xubuntu.org and replace it with `bzr branch lp:xubuntu-website/static-assets /srv/static.xubuntu.org --use-existing-dir` and it'll be all so easy forever more
[16:32] <knome> :)
[16:32] <flocculant> hi and bye pleia2 :)
[16:32] <pleia2> o/ flocculant \o
[16:33] <knome> oh shoo
[16:34] <knome> pleia2, revision 7 up
[16:35] <pleia2> oh, hah, I was like "but we were on revision 11" and then I realized what your interjection meant :)
[16:35] <knome> :D
[16:35] <pleia2> thank you
[16:35] <knome> yw
[16:36] <pleia2> and done
[16:36] <knome> great
[16:36] <knome> now i'm also happy to let the flyer article go
[16:37] <pleia2> ok, I think we'll do that tomorrow
[16:37] <pleia2> because better social media traffic on weekdays
[16:37] <knome> wfm
[16:39] <knome> flocculant, what was the decision for pre-final-beta support agin?
[16:39] <knome> +1?
[16:49] <flocculant> because ubuntu +1 is pants for anything but ubuntu and a bit of kubuntu
[16:52] <knome> no i mean where should people go with their questions pre-final-beta?
[16:52] <flocculant> no idea 
[16:52] <flocculant> here maybe
[16:52] <knome> hah
[16:52] <knome> ughhh
[16:52] <knome> NO
[16:52] <knome> :P
[16:52] <flocculant> :D
[16:53] <knome> "hey, i installed this pre-alpha system and it totally broke everything. developers, HALP?"
[16:53] <knome> NO.
[16:53] <flocculant> hah
[16:53] <flocculant> you just need a "Reinstall it" factoid 
[16:53] <knome> people who help us can totally still ask here
[16:53] <knome> and by that i mean that if you are doing legimitate testing
[16:54] <knome> not just "want the new awesomeness right now and expect others to fix it for you"
[16:54] <flocculant> yea - I tend to try to tie up LP and irc where it's possible - unless it's obvious that someone is helping by testing 
[16:55] <knome> i don't remember exactly, but doesn't mainbuntu have some kind of "no bugs for development releases before X" policy as well?
[16:55] <flocculant> the +1 channel goes ghostly if you mention xfce 
[16:55] <flocculant> no idea - never go that channel
[16:56] <knome> not support, i meant real bugs
[16:56] <flocculant> that's something to do with apport I think 
[16:57] <ali1234> what do you mean by "mainbuntu"
[16:57] <ali1234> because #ubuntu is exclusively for support anyway
[16:57] <flocculant> ok " etc/apport/crashdb.conf: Enable crash reports on Launchpad for vivid"  Mon, 26 Jan 
[16:57] <knome> ubuntu desktop and core packages
[16:58] <ali1234> there's certainly no limitation on reporting bugs in development releases
[16:58] <knome> flocculant, yeah, that too, but i think the same ruling goes for manually reported bugs
[16:58] <ali1234> that would be silly. so agin, what do you mean?
[16:58] <knome> yes there are
[16:58] <ali1234> apport requires you to be up to date and on official repos, that's it
[16:59] <knome> ali1234, whatever.
[16:59] <knome> i'm off.
[20:07] <ochosi> thanks andrzejr 
[20:12] <ochosi> flocculant: not wanting to diminish your testing/evidence, but in vivid even list&lib and context layout crashes gmb...
[20:12] <ochosi> bluesabre: ^
[20:14] <flocculant> ochosi: ok 
[20:14] <flocculant> wonder why it wasn't seen during vivid tests then 
[20:15] <flocculant> ochosi: must have been ok on 2014-12-07 
[20:17] <flocculant> knome: as the only person I know who uses it - do you not see these crashes?
[20:21] <knome> flocculant, nope, but i run vivid still on the desktop (where i use gmb)
[20:21] <flocculant> mmm - so on the 7th it was tested and ok ( jjfrv8 wouldn't have not mentioned it) and on the 11th brainwash reported it crashing
[20:22] <knome> if that makes a difference..
[20:22] <flocculant> knome: so it works in vivid for you? 
[20:22] <knome> yep - AND i should even be using the version from the repositories :P
[20:22] <flocculant> I just booted the vivid image - immediately crashed
[20:23] <knome> i can check when i'm on the desktop again
[20:23] <knome> from which version have you been seeing this?
[20:25] <flocculant> 1.1.13 in vivid and 1.14 here
[20:25] <knome> ok
[20:25] <knome> i'll try to remember...
[20:25] <flocculant> oh lovely 
[20:26] <knome> what? :)
[20:26] <knome> me trying to remember?
[20:26] <flocculant> now it crashes with layout it didn't crash with before
[20:26] <knome> :D
[20:26] <flocculant> no that ^^
[20:26] <knome> great
[20:26] <flocculant> :D
[20:26] <knome> so maybe it's not related to layout options after all..
[20:26] <flocculant> yep
[20:27] <knome> oh hello ochosi
[20:27] <flocculant> mind you - this install could be all over the place - it does have our ppa's for one
[20:27] <ochosi> hi knome 
[20:28] <knome> flocculant, and you would not call my install from 2011 with loads of customizations and upgrade-breakages "all over the place"? :P
[20:28] <flocculant> ha ha ha 
[20:28] <flocculant> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/W/DefaultMediaPlayer
[20:28] <flocculant> copy that to X ;)
[20:28] <knome> sure
[20:29] <knome> i still don't think gmb is likely the best default player
[20:29] <flocculant> right
[20:29] <knome> so it's not like we're refusing to make the switch with ochosi...
[20:30] <flocculant> did you ever get details of what that poll said about media players? 
[20:30] <knome> flocculant, i haven't processed the correlation with non-power-users and the satisfaction about media players yet
[20:30] <flocculant> ok
[20:31] <knome> but really, i'm pretty sure regardless what the default player was, about 75% would be unhappy about it..
[20:31] <flocculant> well yea - that'll be humans for you 
[20:32] <flocculant> knome: I thought apport off might have been what you'd seen :)
[20:32] <knome> yeah, well, good to have that sorted out
[20:33] <flocculant> yep
[20:33] <knome> then what is our policy then?
[20:33] <knome> ochosi, ping
[20:33] <knome> re: where do we point people for support before final beta?
[20:34] <flocculant> m/l perhaps - cc the quality one 
[20:34] <knome> that's better than this channel...
[20:34] <ochosi> the options are #ubuntu+1, ml,..?
[20:35] <flocculant> especially as supposedly bug squad is *part* of quality now
[20:35] <flocculant> ochosi: issue with +1 is that it's good for ubuntu/kubuntu - not so much anything else 
[20:36] <knome> ochosi, the options are anything we want
[20:36] <bluesabre> we might also test gmb with vivid installed vs vivid updated
[20:36] <bluesabre> might have been some library update at the source of all this
[20:36] <knome> ochosi, it's just about a social agreement
[20:37] <flocculant> bluesabre: vivid from the live session - immediate crash
[20:37] <knome> and if we had that policy, we could post it to the website, so people could know it before they came to place X telling about their pre-alpha crashes
[20:37] <flocculant> bluesabre: also 4 days between package test pass and bug report
[20:38] <flocculant> knome: but we'd really want any talking to include bug # 
[20:38] <bluesabre> flocculant: good to know
[20:38] <knome> flocculant, sure, we can tell them that too
[20:38] <knome> flocculant, though as you know, we can tell people this and that, and they might still just do the other
[20:39] <flocculant> knome: yea ofc - but if there's a 'policy' at least we can complain a bit while helping 
[20:39] <knome> yep
[20:39] <flocculant> and the more we tell people - hopefully ... 
[20:39] <knome> i was thinking about a page under the developer area
[20:39] <flocculant> I'd hold fire on that
[20:39] <knome> and then in the support page, say sth like "For support on development releases, see X"
[20:39] <knome> sure, i'm not pushing anything out now
[20:40] <flocculant> I'm half way through this 'tome' I'm doing - might be better not being just a site blog post
[20:40] <bluesabre> we can also have a dev faq on the wiki... "Known installation issues", etc
[20:40] <knome> :)
[20:40] <flocculant> trying to get everything in one place somewhere 
[20:41] <knome> pleia2, oh haha! apparently, i've dropped stuff we need in extras.css!
[20:41] <knome> pleia2, sorry! :)
[20:42] <ochosi> sry, was afk again...
[20:42] <flocculant> :)
[20:42] <knome> ochosi, no problem...
[20:42] <ochosi> so how big is this issue? how many are showing up at our doorsteps with these issues?
[20:42] <ochosi> (just so i know what we're dealing with)
[20:43] <ochosi> and hi bluesabre 
[20:43] <bluesabre> hey ochosi
[20:43] <bluesabre> brb
[20:43] <knome> i've seen maybe about 5 this cycle
[20:43] <ochosi> bluesabre: i think it might be something like a library update. there definitely were o such gmb crashes pre-vivid
[20:43] <flocculant> ochosi: if you mean the help pre beta - then hardly any 
[20:43] <knome> it's not a huge amount i guess, but otoh, it feels stupid to have no place to point them at
[20:44] <knome> since if we do only final beta and later support in #x, that means we don't do pre-final-beta support there
[20:44] <ochosi> so were those issues mostly xubuntu-specific i presume?
[20:44] <knome> does that mean there IS no pre-final-beta support?
[20:44] <knome> tbh i can't remember
[20:44] <knome> and didn't dig too deep into them
[20:45] <flocculant> ochosi: 1 I saw was quite generic, 1 was more us that I remember
[20:45] <ochosi> yeah, from my pov there is no support for pre-final-beta. if ppl come i would expect them to "report bugs", not look for help
[20:45] <knome> should we point them to #ubuntu+1 at all?
[20:45] <knome> or just tell them to file bugs?
[20:46] <knome> and if they file bugs, should they notify us on the mailing list of them or sth?
[20:46] <flocculant> I'd not expect us to support as such - but maybe support with what they're possible steps are I would
[20:46] <ochosi> so i wouldn't set up a separate place for them. if they wanna report an issue that is xubuntu specific (but are too lazy for LP) they could tell us about that here
[20:46] <knome> but meh
[20:46] <knome> ochosi, i'm actually actively opposed to THAT
[20:46] <knome> i'm not opposed to helping people why actually help us with testing/qa and stuff on this channel
[20:46] <ochosi> getting to know like this is better than not at all
[20:47] <flocculant> I don't see an issue if someone who's actively testing for us being able to pop here or m/l 
[20:47] <knome> but i don't want the average joe to come here and whine about his broken pre-alpha installation
[20:47] <ochosi> well naturally
[20:47] <flocculant> that ^^
[20:47] <ochosi> that was not what i was suggesting
[20:47] <knome> well... you kind of were ;)
[20:47] <knome> is "i reported a bug" enough to warrant them whining here?
[20:47] <ochosi> if there are bugs, they can come here, and we send them to launchpad. if they don't end up filing bugreports at least we heard about it here
[20:48] <knome> what about this:
[20:48] <knome> pre-beta, if you're clearly not actively involved, we tell them to report bugs and send a mail to the mailing list
[20:48] <knome> that way we can also get the traffic archived
[20:48] <knome> because people can chime in and say "me too" or "not me" - and it doesn't get buried in endless irc logs
[20:49] <ochosi> right, it gets buried in ml archives instead :)
[20:49] <flocculant> yep - and people can at least suggest things
[20:49] <knome> but it's easily findable.
[20:49] <flocculant> well we could ask people to sensibly title thread 
[20:49] <knome> if a stranger reports a critical bug, we can THEN always ask them to join us here
[20:49] <ochosi> look, i don't mind either way. obviously we're not discussing where to send "masses of ppl" for support, so i think this is no biggie
[20:50] <knome> ochosi, my point here is that if support for final beta is at #x, then i don't see why pre-final would be here
[20:50] <knome> because at that point, all non-released support should be here
[20:50] <knome> because it makes no sense to suddenly drag it away from here
[20:51] <ochosi> yeah, but as i said i don't think there should be generic pre-final support at all. yeah fine, if ppl are involved then naturally they will discuss this sort of stuff here. but the average joe user shouldn't get help "fixing his alpha install" because he shouldn't depend on it anyway
[20:51] <ochosi> unless he wants to actually fix a bug, not the install
[20:51] <knome> yes. absolutely.
[20:51] <knome> so what do we say for the average joes?
[20:52] <knome> do we tell them to file bugs and hope we find them later?
[20:52] <ochosi> file bugs, tag them
[20:52] <knome> ok
[20:52] <knome> should they go with the exploratory testing tags?
[20:52] <ochosi> but not bugs like "my bluetooth headset doesnt work with xubuntu x alpha anymore"
[20:53] <ochosi> i'd personally mostly be interested in things that can be fixed by us or that affect our basic user experience
[20:53] <flocculant> we need clear guidance on what;s us and what's general buntu 
[20:54] <ochosi> i think it's hard to draw that line. if there's a bug in gtk (or gvfs) it affects everyone
[20:54] <ochosi> (well not kubuntu)
[20:54] <flocculant> then it's simple - if it's us - mail us, use this tag
[20:54] <ochosi> yup
[20:54] <flocculant> yes - but some things are obviously us 
[20:54] <ochosi> more or less. and the borderline cases won't be the majority i guess
[20:54] <flocculant> anything else - quality m/l and lp
[20:55] <knome> avg joe can't know the line
[20:55] <knome> and it's totally really hard to draw
[20:55] <flocculant> not for the obvious things it's not
[20:55] <knome> no
[20:55] <knome> but for all things
[20:55] <flocculant> so a short list of tell us - anything else elsewhere
[20:56] <knome> tell us - on the ml?
[20:56] <flocculant> don't see why not 
[20:56] <knome> ok
[20:56] <knome> i'll write a draft at some point then
[20:56] <knome> another question:
[20:56] <flocculant> how long is list going to be of things we can directly do something about 
[20:56] <knome> do we need http://xubuntu.org/dev/calendar/ any more?
[20:57] <flocculant> I'd say no - we have that on tracker now
[20:59] <ochosi> sry folks, gotta get some sleep
[20:59] <bluesabre> back
[20:59] <flocculant> good night ochosi :)
[20:59] <knome> ochosi, np - i know you need it :P
[20:59] <knome> ochosi, nighty!
[20:59] <bluesabre> nighty ochosi
[20:59] <ochosi> thanks, ttyl :)
[20:59] <ochosi> bluesabre: xfce4-panel patch is upstream btw, so i hope translations for it land soon
[21:00] <bluesabre> ochosi: great, will sync any translations before freeze
[21:01] <knome> bluesabre, i take that applies to any other packages as well :P
[21:01] <bluesabre> mhm
[21:02] <bluesabre> ochosi: you need better examples, we would want to know if bluetooth breaks since ubuntu flavors (but not ubuntu) ship blueman
[21:03] <bluesabre> we're in a good position to support that ;)
[21:04] <bluesabre> ... and I think I did the last upload of that... :D
[21:04] <flocculant> I guess that's what we need to know - things we're in a position to support :)
[21:05] <bluesabre> it might be a good idea to have a list of things we have instead of ubuntu, so we can request tests with the other application
[21:06] <bluesabre> parole broken - test totem to see if it works first
[21:06] <flocculant> yep
[21:06] <bluesabre> cant delete a file in thunar, how about nautilus
[21:06] <bluesabre> :D
[21:07] <flocculant> quite a bit of thinking about this to do :)
[21:07] <bluesabre> yeah
[21:07] <flocculant> bluesabre: yea exactly 
[21:07] <flocculant> I always breathe a sigh of relief when ubuntu breaks the same way :D
[21:07] <bluesabre> me too
[21:07] <bluesabre> I'm ok at developing, awful at debugging
[21:08] <bluesabre> getting better
[21:08] <bluesabre> but still so so bad
[21:08] <flocculant> that's something I wish I was better at - if only to take some load off 
[21:11] <flocculant> anyway - bed for me I think - night all :)
[21:11] <knome> nighty flocculant 
[21:11] <bluesabre> night flocculant 
[21:12] <knome> bluesabre, does "uninterruptible power supply" mean "power supply that can not be uninterrupted"
[21:12] <knome> or is there another meaning for "uninterrupted"
[21:12] <knome> i mean "can not be interrupted"
[21:12] <knome> and what does that really even mean?
[21:16] <pleia2> knome: did you need to add it back? i can update it when needed
[21:17] <pleia2> on my phone now, but can ssh ;)
[21:17] <knome> pleia2, it's ok for now, we might do that stuff in another way soon anyway
[21:17] <knome> and i fixed the obvious fail already
[21:17] <pleia2> ok, thanks :)
[21:18] <bluesabre> knome: that's basically a battery that stays charged by the wall and provides continuous power output, even during brownouts or power outages
[21:18] <bluesabre> or is this a monty python sketch?
[21:19] <knome> bluesabre, nope... :P
[21:19] <knome> bluesabre, this is translating to finnish..
[21:19] <bluesabre> I have one next to my desk
[21:19] <bluesabre> saves us a lot of headache
[21:19] <knome> oh...
[21:20] <knome> a lamp just lit up over the top of my head
[21:20] <knome> UPS!
[21:20]  * bluesabre nods
[21:20] <knome> of course
[21:20] <knome> now it makes perfect sense