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| rickardve | dschoen: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallerTeam | 14:59 |
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| melodie | hello! | 22:45 |
| teward | o/ | 22:46 |
| melodie | I would need advice to where ask help to continue working on debugging a dependency issue in a Wily minimalist start of build (for a remix) | 22:46 |
| melodie | hi teward ! | 22:46 |
| melodie | here is the bug: | 22:46 |
| melodie | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/obconf/+bug/1510709 | 22:46 |
| ubot5 | Launchpad bug 1510709 in obconf (Ubuntu) "In Wily Obconf and other GTK related packages pull many unneeded packages" [Undecided,Incomplete] | 22:46 |
| teward | melodie: read wxl's comment | 22:47 |
| teward | what does he say to do? | 22:47 |
| teward | specifically comment #6 | 22:47 |
| teward | and #3 | 22:47 |
| teward | wxl: you should probably wake up and stop by | 22:47 |
| wxl | yep, as i said, you should start with debian. | 22:48 |
| melodie | gtk maintainers: if I only know how to use redepends properly? | 22:48 |
| melodie | hi wxl | 22:48 |
| wxl | and it shouldn't be a complaint about obconf but gtk. | 22:48 |
| melodie | wxl sure, just it started with obconf but now I don't know where to restart from. | 22:48 |
| wxl | melodie: gtk maintainers for debian. | 22:49 |
| melodie | this is why I'll need some help and I'm willing to take all the time it needs : just not too much time at each session | 22:49 |
| teward | wxl: wouldn't filing a bug against libgtk-3-common in Debian be equally effective? | 22:49 |
| teward | or am I missing something> | 22:49 |
| * teward hasn't reviewed the bug completely | 22:50 | |
| wxl | teward: that's kind of what i'm suggesting, but i'm not sure this is likely to actually be a bug | 22:50 |
| wxl | dependencies change | 22:50 |
| melodie | wxl which gtk package should I specifically target? and how to bring in the topic? | 22:50 |
| wxl | she *feels* like it's a bug that there are additional dependencies | 22:50 |
| wxl | melodie: here's the package that requires the theme, for example https://packages.debian.org/sid/libgtk-3-common | 22:50 |
| melodie | wxl I'm sure it could be possible to avoid the 3 themes and 183 to 187 MB depends, depending on the gtk program pulled in | 22:50 |
| teward | i think there's another consideration point though - the fact that this is being done for a remix | 22:50 |
| teward | do we consider a remix (Bento Openbox Remix) a valid derivative | 22:51 |
| teward | in which case if "No" is the answer, this is likely opinion or invalid | 22:51 |
| melodie | even connman-ui brings almost 200MB in! the same 3 themes appear again! | 22:51 |
| wxl | teward: i think if we ignore that fact, however, the additional dependencies COULD be a problem | 22:51 |
| melodie | teward the remixes with Openbox that I produce have always brought up issues such as this one once a while : for the benefit of all. | 22:52 |
| wxl | teward: at least to someone who doesn't want a bunch of additional dependencies, which, for example, a lubuntu dev might care about | 22:52 |
| teward | wxl: but as Lubuntu's moving away from GTK it's a non-issue for Lubuntu | 22:52 |
| teward | which is what I think yo usaid | 22:52 |
| wxl | teward: exactly, but still, someone might care | 22:52 |
| teward | mmm | 22:52 |
| melodie | indeed, a very basic setup will show some issues or flaws, which makes them fixed before they cause trouble in more elaborate desktops | 22:52 |
| melodie | very often, at least | 22:52 |
| wxl | the way i look at it is i don't really give a hoot about it but i'm happy to give melodie the information she needs to move forward XD | 22:52 |
| wxl | and we will have gtk in 16.04 | 22:53 |
| teward | who maintains GTK here in Ubuntu? | 22:53 |
| wxl | i would not like to have a lubuntu lts with ubuntu-mono in it. that seems kind of problematic. | 22:53 |
| teward | is that the Desktop team? | 22:53 |
| teward | or Universe | 22:53 |
| melodie | about Lubuntu and Qt, I have found a very strange dependency issue when I tried to install ubiquity :/ | 22:53 |
| wxl | teward: dunno http://packages.ubuntu.com/xenial/libgtk-3-common | 22:53 |
| wxl | so honestly it's kind of a two part issue: | 22:54 |
| teward | debian gnome maintainers | 22:54 |
| melodie | I'm not going to do what I have in mind just tonight, but for tomorrow or next evening I can prepare a pastebin with the result of my attempts to install some of these packages I consider installing, which bring tons of them, which I find strangely 'bloated' | 22:55 |
| wxl | 1. get debian to perhaps resolve the dependencies that seem to come with gtk | 22:55 |
| wxl | 2. get ubuntu to resolve the weird ubuntu-mono dependency (which to me makes no sense) | 22:55 |
| wxl | melodie: i don't think that additional information is necessary, except perhaps a comparison between what it was for the last cycle versus this one | 22:55 |
| teward | wxl: sounds like something Laney should look at? | 22:55 |
| wxl | melodie: then i would present those to the maintainers | 22:55 |
| wxl | teward: your guess is as good as mine honestly | 22:56 |
| teward | mmm | 22:56 |
| wxl | ahhhh | 22:56 |
| wxl | the ubuntu-mono dependency is here http://packages.ubuntu.com/xenial/adwaita-icon-theme | 22:56 |
| wxl | which naturally does not inculde ubuntu-mono in the similar package in debian | 22:56 |
| wxl | but oddly it includes no mono at all | 22:57 |
| teward | so that's an Ubuntu specific bug? | 22:57 |
| wxl | yes | 22:57 |
| wxl | so i would file a bug against that, melodie | 22:57 |
| wxl | a separate one | 22:57 |
| teward | want me to invalid the current bug? | 22:57 |
| wxl | perhaps what really would be best is to redescribe it as a gtk bug | 22:57 |
| teward | indeed | 22:58 |
| wxl | and then we can triage it with an upstream bug | 22:58 |
| melodie | wxl teward : I can work on redoing a minimalist 15.04, with the same set of packages (let's say I create a script, and while doing that, I install one package or one set of packages at a time, and note the result in the draft of the future script) and then I redo the same for Wily, so we can compare? | 22:58 |
| wxl | and get rid of the unnecessary context of making an unsupported remix XD | 22:58 |
| melodie | would that help? | 22:58 |
| * teward disappears to fix a switch that's causing headaches | 22:58 | |
| melodie | teward wxl | 22:58 |
| melodie | teward I can rename it! | 22:58 |
| teward | then go ahead :) | 22:58 |
| melodie | just tell me what I have to rename it and I do | 22:59 |
| * teward still goes to fix the switch | 22:59 | |
| wxl | i think i would just do "apt-rdepends <some gtk package>" for both 15.10 and 15.04 | 22:59 |
| wxl | something like "wily gtk has additional dependencies as compared to vivid" | 22:59 |
| melodie | would this "In Wily GTK related packages pull many unneeded packages" do? | 22:59 |
| wxl | don't use the word "unneeded" | 23:00 |
| wxl | they may be needed | 23:00 |
| wxl | things may have changed | 23:00 |
| wxl | and perhaps it's not a bug | 23:00 |
| melodie | wxl I tried to do that against "ubuntu-mono" and didn't understand the results | 23:00 |
| wxl | apt-rdepends gives you every single package a particular package depends on | 23:00 |
| melodie | so what is needed from my side would probably be the facts : what I meet with, for each package.. | 23:00 |
| wxl | where as apt-cache rdepends gives you every single package that depends on a particular package | 23:01 |
| melodie | and a keen dev might know where to look and how to read his rdepends and else results? | 23:01 |
| wxl | so what you want is apt-rdepends | 23:01 |
| wxl | it's recusrive so it will really list EVERY dependency | 23:01 |
| wxl | then you compare the two | 23:01 |
| wxl | for example, you will not find ubuntu-mono in the earlier one | 23:01 |
| melodie | wxl this is what I have done for ubuntu-mono, but I'm sure I don't know how to do that properly and how to pin point the very guilty package | 23:02 |
| wxl | but you will also not find adwaita-icon-theme | 23:02 |
| wxl | just do a diff between them | 23:02 |
| wxl | or just post them up and let someone else do it | 23:02 |
| melodie | you lost me | 23:02 |
| wxl | look here: | 23:03 |
| wxl | http://packages.ubuntu.com/vivid-updates/libgtk-3-common | 23:03 |
| wxl | versus | 23:03 |
| wxl | http://packages.ubuntu.com/wily/libgtk-3-common | 23:03 |
| wxl | do you see any OBVIOUS differences? | 23:03 |
| melodie | sorry I used 3 hours of my afternoon doing a demonstration of "gnu/linux" with Bento Openbox on two machines that have some windows, for a lady who works in the school academy and my brain is not working at it's best | 23:03 |
| wxl | ok well the obvious difference is adwaita-icon-theme | 23:03 |
| melodie | oh! | 23:03 |
| melodie | that's a lead for me: right? | 23:04 |
| wxl | if you would have done apt-rdepends on libgtk-3-common you would have found that out | 23:04 |
| wxl | assuming you did it on a vivid system and separately did it on a wily system | 23:04 |
| melodie | ok, I'll redo what you say and continue from that, right? | 23:04 |
| wxl | the the theme would have been in the list on wily but not on vivid | 23:04 |
| melodie | this sounds feasable for me (starting from tomorrow) | 23:04 |
| wxl | the beenfit to using rdepends is that it's recusive | 23:05 |
| wxl | recursive that is | 23:05 |
| wxl | it will give you the ENTIRE list of dependencies, the dependencies of every dependency and so on | 23:05 |
| melodie | yes, but I didn't know how to use it or read the result the right way | 23:05 |
| melodie | you seem to have reached the aim more easily than I did | 23:05 |
| wxl | like i said, you look for things that are on one list that aren't on the other | 23:05 |
| wxl | i just scanned the list for problem children | 23:05 |
| wxl | look for patterns :) | 23:05 |
| melodie | aha | 23:06 |
| wxl | you SHOULD be able to use diff but you'd have to grep out the version numbers | 23:06 |
| melodie | children : this is a family matter | 23:06 |
| wxl | hehehe | 23:06 |
| melodie | wxl it's ok, don't explain me more, I get a lead I'll follow it | 23:06 |
| wxl | melodie: so the goals i would make for yourself are as such: | 23:07 |
| wxl | 1. update the current bug | 23:07 |
| wxl | 1. change the title as above | 23:07 |
| melodie | as I tell you, I'm not fully functional at this time, but I wanted to let people here know I was still on the issue and very much interested to contribute to improve the situation here. | 23:07 |
| melodie | wxl is that : "In Wily GTK related packages pull many unneeded packages" | 23:07 |
| melodie | ok for the modified title? | 23:08 |
| wxl | 2. change the description to be really terse. among other things, don't mention the remix. some people will ignore it as unsupported just because of that. | 23:08 |
| melodie | ok | 23:08 |
| wxl | melodie: yes, but change unneeded to additional | 23:08 |
| wxl | 3. attach the results of the rdepends comparison | 23:08 |
| melodie | so instead of talking of the remix, I state I build for myself? or what? | 23:08 |
| melodie | I don't like to hide the facts | 23:08 |
| melodie | ok | 23:09 |
| wxl | 4. file a bug upstream at debian and make a reference on each bug to the other | 23:09 |
| wxl | melodie: it's irrelevant to the bug. the bug is that there are additional packages that are unexpected. that's all that matters. | 23:09 |
| melodie | "In Wily some GTK related packages pull many additional packages" | 23:09 |
| melodie | let me see how I can do that part | 23:10 |
| wxl | 2. make a new bug "adwaita-icon-theme requires ubuntu-mono in wily" | 23:10 |
| wxl | i just noticed now that ubuntu-mono is not the same as mono though. it's just an icon theme. so that may be a non issue. in fact, that removes my personal concern about it :) | 23:11 |
| wxl | !info ubuntu-mono | 23:11 |
| ubot5 | ubuntu-mono (source: ubuntu-themes): Ubuntu Mono Icon theme. In component main, is optional. Version 14.04+15.04.20150410-0ubuntu1 (vivid), package size 179 kB, installed size 4138 kB | 23:11 |
| wxl | 4138kB on no XD | 23:11 |
| melodie | wxl I just modified the initial message, would you look? | 23:12 |
| melodie | wxl ubuntu-mono and adwaita-icon-theme might be tangled in a way that allows one to sit on the other | 23:13 |
| wxl | melodie: perhaps | 23:13 |
| melodie | one brings additional icons, and uses the other as it improves it | 23:14 |
| wxl | title is good | 23:14 |
| melodie | thanks | 23:14 |
| wxl | just need to trim up description | 23:14 |
| melodie | I did? | 23:14 |
| melodie | just 2 seconds ago | 23:14 |
| melodie | would you refresh? | 23:14 |
| wxl | no not the TITLE | 23:15 |
| wxl | the DESCRIPTION | 23:15 |
| melodie | ? | 23:15 |
| wxl | the part that starts with: | 23:15 |
| wxl | Hello, | 23:15 |
| wxl | I start building a minimalist install with Openbox and I meet with the following issues: | 23:15 |
| wxl | if you attach the rdepends then i can change what it affects but temporarily i'll do libgtk-3-0 | 23:16 |
| melodie | "oh! | 23:16 |
| melodie | attends | 23:16 |
| melodie | wait :) | 23:16 |
| melodie | I have to ssh the working machine | 23:16 |
| wxl | well actually i think they're all under the same source package | 23:17 |
| wxl | yes they are | 23:17 |
| wxl | so i have it set correctly | 23:17 |
| melodie | I'm on it | 23:19 |
| melodie | wxl one attachment will have for title and content: wily_apt-rdepends libgtk-3-common.txt | 23:21 |
| melodie | no wait | 23:21 |
| melodie | wily_apt-rdepends libgtk-3-common.txt | 23:21 |
| melodie | where is the - ? o_O | 23:22 |
| wxl | heheh | 23:22 |
| wxl | melodie: if i were you i'd run it against libgtk-3-0 though | 23:22 |
| melodie | wily_apt-rdepends-libgtk-3-common.txt | 23:22 |
| melodie | is that the better choice? Let me see | 23:22 |
| wxl | yes because that's the "main" gtk library | 23:22 |
| wxl | so that will allow us to see if anything else might be an issue | 23:23 |
| wxl | OH | 23:23 |
| wxl | and i should mention it would be wise to compare wheezy with jessie in debian | 23:23 |
| wxl | so ideally you have a wheezy and jessie vm and do the rdepends there | 23:24 |
| wxl | at least when you file the debian bug | 23:24 |
| wxl | and you should note that it has affected every version since jessie, including stretch and jessie | 23:24 |
| melodie | euh... | 23:24 |
| melodie | Jessie has Wheezy before, right? and Stretch was before Wheezy? | 23:25 |
| wxl | it's wheezy then jessie then stretch then sid | 23:25 |
| wxl | listed in order in the top right of https://packages.debian.org/sid/libgtk-3-common | 23:25 |
| melodie | ok | 23:26 |
| melodie | this seems a long shot, but worth it | 23:26 |
| melodie | here the new file text name and content: wily_apt-rdepends-libgtk-3-0.txt | 23:27 |
| melodie | for wily | 23:27 |
| melodie | should I bring both or only the latter? | 23:27 |
| melodie | I will redo that in Vivid, which is my current system | 23:27 |
| wxl | one for wily libgtk-3-0 and one for vivid | 23:27 |
| wxl | no need for the libgtk-3-commons | 23:27 |
| melodie | ok | 23:27 |
| melodie | ok | 23:27 |
| wxl | the only reason i was using that as an example is because its immediate dependency is something we know wasn't there before | 23:28 |
| wxl | ok brb | 23:28 |
| melodie | ok | 23:28 |
| melodie | my next question will be simple, which Debian is not too large which can be installed? I'll have to seek for a lxde Debian probably (but I have resources for this one question, most probably) | 23:29 |
| wxl | oh man i'm not sure to be honest O_O | 23:30 |
| wxl | i know there is an lxde one | 23:30 |
| wxl | or at least that they offer that as an option | 23:31 |
| wxl | default de is gnome tho | 23:31 |
| wxl | which is to say they like their gtk XD | 23:31 |
| wxl | brb again | 23:32 |
| melodie | :) | 23:34 |
| melodie | Debian netinstall used to be my favorite | 23:34 |
| wxl | back | 23:35 |
| wxl | i honestly haven't installed debian in a loooooooooooooong time | 23:35 |
| melodie | no problem | 23:38 |
| melodie | I guess I can do a netinstall the same way I pick up UMR and install the needed packages in it. I just have to be carefull to start with the xorg suite and continue with the system packages before hitting the ones for the environment | 23:39 |
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