[14:59] <rickardve> dschoen: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallerTeam
[22:45] <melodie> hello!
[22:46] <teward> o/
[22:46] <melodie> I would need advice to where ask help to continue working on debugging a dependency issue in a Wily minimalist start of build (for a remix)
[22:46] <melodie> hi teward !
[22:46] <melodie> here is the bug:
[22:46] <melodie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/obconf/+bug/1510709
[22:47] <teward> melodie: read wxl's comment
[22:47] <teward> what does he say to do?
[22:47] <teward> specifically comment #6
[22:47] <teward> and #3
[22:47] <teward> wxl: you should probably wake up and stop by
[22:48] <wxl> yep, as i said, you should start with debian.
[22:48] <melodie> gtk maintainers: if I only know how to use redepends properly?
[22:48] <melodie> hi wxl
[22:48] <wxl> and it shouldn't be a complaint about obconf but gtk.
[22:48] <melodie> wxl sure, just it started with obconf but now I don't know where to restart from.
[22:49] <wxl> melodie: gtk maintainers for debian.
[22:49] <melodie> this is why I'll need some help and I'm willing to take all the time it needs : just not too much time at each session
[22:49] <teward> wxl: wouldn't filing a bug against libgtk-3-common in Debian be equally effective?
[22:49] <teward> or am I missing something>
[22:50]  * teward hasn't reviewed the bug completely
[22:50] <wxl> teward: that's kind of what i'm suggesting, but i'm not sure this is likely to actually be a bug
[22:50] <wxl> dependencies change
[22:50] <melodie> wxl which gtk package should I specifically target? and how to bring in the topic?
[22:50] <wxl> she *feels* like it's a bug that there are additional dependencies
[22:50] <wxl> melodie: here's the package that requires the theme, for example https://packages.debian.org/sid/libgtk-3-common
[22:50] <melodie> wxl I'm sure it could be possible to avoid the 3 themes and 183 to 187 MB depends, depending on the gtk program pulled in
[22:50] <teward> i think there's another consideration point though - the fact that this is being done for a remix
[22:51] <teward> do we consider a remix (Bento Openbox Remix) a valid derivative
[22:51] <teward> in which case if "No" is the answer, this is likely opinion or invalid
[22:51] <melodie> even connman-ui brings almost 200MB in! the same 3 themes appear again!
[22:51] <wxl> teward: i think if we ignore that fact, however, the additional dependencies COULD be a problem
[22:52] <melodie> teward the remixes with Openbox that I produce have always brought up issues such as this one once a while : for the benefit of all.
[22:52] <wxl> teward: at least to someone who doesn't want a bunch of additional dependencies, which, for example, a lubuntu dev might care about
[22:52] <teward> wxl: but as Lubuntu's moving away from GTK it's a non-issue for Lubuntu
[22:52] <teward> which is what I think yo usaid
[22:52] <wxl> teward: exactly, but still, someone might care
[22:52] <teward> mmm
[22:52] <melodie> indeed, a very basic setup will show some issues or flaws, which makes them fixed before they cause trouble in more elaborate desktops
[22:52] <melodie> very often, at least
[22:52] <wxl> the way i look at it is i don't really give a hoot about it but i'm happy to give melodie the information she needs to move forward XD
[22:53] <wxl> and we will have gtk in 16.04
[22:53] <teward> who maintains GTK here in Ubuntu?
[22:53] <wxl> i would not like to have a lubuntu lts with ubuntu-mono in it. that seems kind of problematic.
[22:53] <teward> is that the Desktop team?
[22:53] <teward> or Universe
[22:53] <melodie> about Lubuntu and Qt, I have found a very strange dependency issue when I tried to install ubiquity :/
[22:53] <wxl> teward: dunno http://packages.ubuntu.com/xenial/libgtk-3-common
[22:54] <wxl> so honestly it's kind of a two part issue:
[22:54] <teward> debian gnome maintainers
[22:55] <melodie> I'm not going to do what I have in mind just tonight, but for tomorrow or next evening I can prepare a pastebin with the result of my attempts to install some of these packages I consider installing, which bring tons of them, which I find strangely 'bloated'
[22:55] <wxl> 1. get debian to perhaps resolve the dependencies that seem to come with gtk
[22:55] <wxl> 2. get ubuntu to resolve the weird ubuntu-mono dependency (which to me makes no sense)
[22:55] <wxl> melodie: i don't think that additional information is necessary, except perhaps a comparison between what it was for the last cycle versus this one
[22:55] <teward> wxl: sounds like something Laney should look at?
[22:55] <wxl> melodie: then i would present those to the maintainers
[22:56] <wxl> teward: your guess is as good as mine honestly
[22:56] <teward> mmm
[22:56] <wxl> ahhhh
[22:56] <wxl> the ubuntu-mono dependency is here http://packages.ubuntu.com/xenial/adwaita-icon-theme
[22:56] <wxl> which naturally does not inculde ubuntu-mono in the similar package in debian
[22:57] <wxl> but oddly it includes no mono at all
[22:57] <teward> so that's an Ubuntu specific bug?
[22:57] <wxl> yes
[22:57] <wxl> so i would file a bug against that, melodie
[22:57] <wxl> a separate one
[22:57] <teward> want me to invalid the current bug?
[22:57] <wxl> perhaps what really would be best is to redescribe it as a gtk bug
[22:58] <teward> indeed
[22:58] <wxl> and then we can triage it with an upstream bug
[22:58] <melodie> wxl teward : I can work on redoing a minimalist 15.04, with the same set of packages (let's say I create a script, and while doing that, I install one package or one set of packages at a time, and note the result in the draft of the future script) and then I redo the same for Wily, so we can compare?
[22:58] <wxl> and get rid of the unnecessary context of making an unsupported remix XD
[22:58] <melodie> would that help?
[22:58]  * teward disappears to fix a switch that's causing headaches
[22:58] <melodie> teward wxl
[22:58] <melodie> teward I can rename it!
[22:58] <teward> then go ahead :)
[22:59] <melodie> just tell me what I have to rename it and I do
[22:59]  * teward still goes to fix the switch
[22:59] <wxl> i think i would just do "apt-rdepends <some gtk package>" for both 15.10 and 15.04
[22:59] <wxl> something like "wily gtk has additional dependencies as compared to vivid"
[22:59] <melodie> would this "In Wily GTK related packages pull many unneeded packages" do?
[23:00] <wxl> don't use the word "unneeded"
[23:00] <wxl> they may be needed
[23:00] <wxl> things may have changed
[23:00] <wxl> and perhaps it's not a bug
[23:00] <melodie> wxl I tried to do that against "ubuntu-mono" and didn't understand the results
[23:00] <wxl> apt-rdepends gives you every single package a particular package depends on
[23:00] <melodie> so what is needed from my side would probably be the facts : what I meet with, for each package..
[23:01] <wxl> where as apt-cache rdepends gives you every single package that depends on a particular package
[23:01] <melodie> and a keen dev might know where to look and how to read his rdepends and else results?
[23:01] <wxl> so what you want is apt-rdepends
[23:01] <wxl> it's recusrive so it will really list EVERY dependency
[23:01] <wxl> then you compare the two
[23:01] <wxl> for example, you will not find ubuntu-mono in the earlier one
[23:02] <melodie> wxl this is what I have done for ubuntu-mono, but I'm sure I don't know how to do that properly and how to pin point the very guilty package
[23:02] <wxl> but you will also not find adwaita-icon-theme
[23:02] <wxl> just do a diff between them
[23:02] <wxl> or just post them up and let someone else do it
[23:02] <melodie> you lost me
[23:03] <wxl> look here:
[23:03] <wxl> http://packages.ubuntu.com/vivid-updates/libgtk-3-common
[23:03] <wxl> versus
[23:03] <wxl> http://packages.ubuntu.com/wily/libgtk-3-common
[23:03] <wxl> do you see any OBVIOUS differences?
[23:03] <melodie> sorry I used 3 hours of my afternoon doing a demonstration of "gnu/linux" with Bento Openbox on two machines that have some windows, for a lady who works in the school academy and my brain is not working at it's best
[23:03] <wxl> ok well the obvious difference is adwaita-icon-theme
[23:03] <melodie> oh!
[23:04] <melodie> that's a lead for me: right?
[23:04] <wxl> if you would have done apt-rdepends on libgtk-3-common you would have found that out
[23:04] <wxl> assuming you did it on a vivid system and separately did it on a wily system
[23:04] <melodie> ok, I'll redo what you say and continue from that, right?
[23:04] <wxl> the the theme would have been in the list on wily but not on vivid
[23:04] <melodie> this sounds feasable for me (starting from tomorrow)
[23:05] <wxl> the beenfit to using rdepends is that it's recusive
[23:05] <wxl> recursive that is
[23:05] <wxl> it will give you the ENTIRE list of dependencies, the dependencies of every dependency and so on
[23:05] <melodie> yes, but I didn't know how to use it or read the result the right way
[23:05] <melodie> you seem to have reached the aim more easily than I did
[23:05] <wxl> like i said, you look for things that are on one list that aren't on the other
[23:05] <wxl> i just scanned the list for problem children
[23:05] <wxl> look for patterns :)
[23:06] <melodie> aha
[23:06] <wxl> you SHOULD be able to use diff but you'd have to grep out the version numbers
[23:06] <melodie> children : this is a family matter
[23:06] <wxl> hehehe
[23:06] <melodie> wxl it's ok, don't explain me more, I get a lead I'll follow it
[23:07] <wxl> melodie: so the goals i would make for yourself are as such:
[23:07] <wxl>  1. update the current bug
[23:07] <wxl>     1. change the title as above
[23:07] <melodie> as I tell you, I'm not fully functional at this time, but I wanted to let people here know I was still on the issue and very much interested to contribute to improve the situation here.
[23:07] <melodie> wxl is that : "In Wily GTK related packages pull many unneeded packages"
[23:08] <melodie> ok for the modified title?
[23:08] <wxl>     2. change the description to be really terse. among other things, don't mention the remix. some people will ignore it as unsupported just because of that.
[23:08] <melodie> ok
[23:08] <wxl> melodie: yes, but change unneeded to additional
[23:08] <wxl>     3. attach the results of the rdepends comparison
[23:08] <melodie> so instead of talking of the remix, I state I build for myself? or what?
[23:08] <melodie> I don't like to hide the facts
[23:09] <melodie> ok
[23:09] <wxl>     4. file a bug upstream at debian and make a reference on each bug to the other
[23:09] <wxl> melodie: it's irrelevant to the bug. the bug is that there are additional packages that are unexpected. that's all that matters.
[23:09] <melodie> "In Wily some GTK related packages pull many additional packages"
[23:10] <melodie> let me see how I can do that part
[23:10] <wxl>  2. make a new bug "adwaita-icon-theme requires ubuntu-mono in wily"
[23:11] <wxl> i just noticed now that ubuntu-mono is not the same as mono though. it's just an icon theme. so that may be a non issue. in fact, that removes my personal concern about it :)
[23:11] <wxl> !info ubuntu-mono
[23:11] <wxl> 4138kB on no XD
[23:12] <melodie> wxl I just modified the initial message, would you look?
[23:13] <melodie> wxl ubuntu-mono and adwaita-icon-theme might be tangled in a way that allows one to sit on the other
[23:13] <wxl> melodie: perhaps
[23:14] <melodie> one brings additional icons, and uses the other as it improves it
[23:14] <wxl> title is good
[23:14] <melodie> thanks
[23:14] <wxl> just need to trim up description
[23:14] <melodie> I did?
[23:14] <melodie> just 2 seconds ago
[23:14] <melodie> would you refresh?
[23:15] <wxl> no not the TITLE
[23:15] <wxl> the DESCRIPTION
[23:15] <melodie> ?
[23:15] <wxl> the part that starts with:
[23:15] <wxl> Hello,
[23:15] <wxl> I start building a minimalist install with Openbox and I meet with the following issues:
[23:16] <wxl> if you attach the rdepends then i can change what it affects but temporarily i'll do libgtk-3-0
[23:16] <melodie> "oh!
[23:16] <melodie> attends
[23:16] <melodie> wait :)
[23:16] <melodie> I have to ssh the working machine
[23:17] <wxl> well actually i think they're all under the same source package
[23:17] <wxl> yes they are
[23:17] <wxl> so i have it set correctly
[23:19] <melodie> I'm on it
[23:21] <melodie> wxl one attachment will have for title and content: wily_apt-rdepends libgtk-3-common.txt
[23:21] <melodie> no wait
[23:21] <melodie> wily_apt-rdepends libgtk-3-common.txt
[23:22] <melodie> where is the - ? o_O
[23:22] <wxl> heheh
[23:22] <wxl> melodie: if i were you i'd run it against libgtk-3-0 though
[23:22] <melodie> wily_apt-rdepends-libgtk-3-common.txt
[23:22] <melodie> is that the better choice? Let me see
[23:22] <wxl> yes because that's the "main" gtk library
[23:23] <wxl> so that will allow us to see if anything else might be an issue
[23:23] <wxl> OH
[23:23] <wxl> and i should mention it would be wise to compare wheezy with jessie in debian
[23:24] <wxl> so ideally you have a wheezy and jessie vm and do the rdepends there
[23:24] <wxl> at least when you file the debian bug
[23:24] <wxl> and you should note that it has affected every version since jessie, including stretch and jessie
[23:24] <melodie> euh...
[23:25] <melodie> Jessie has Wheezy before, right? and Stretch was before Wheezy?
[23:25] <wxl> it's wheezy then jessie then stretch then sid
[23:25] <wxl> listed in order in the top right of https://packages.debian.org/sid/libgtk-3-common
[23:26] <melodie> ok
[23:26] <melodie> this seems a long shot, but worth it
[23:27] <melodie> here the new file text name and content: wily_apt-rdepends-libgtk-3-0.txt
[23:27] <melodie> for wily
[23:27] <melodie> should I bring both or only the latter?
[23:27] <melodie> I will redo that in Vivid, which is my current system
[23:27] <wxl> one for wily libgtk-3-0 and one for vivid
[23:27] <wxl> no need for the libgtk-3-commons
[23:27] <melodie> ok
[23:27] <melodie> ok
[23:28] <wxl> the only reason i was using that as an example is because its immediate dependency is something we know wasn't there before
[23:28] <wxl> ok brb
[23:28] <melodie> ok
[23:29] <melodie> my next question will be simple, which Debian is not too large which can be installed? I'll have to seek for a lxde Debian probably (but I have resources for this one question, most probably)
[23:30] <wxl> oh man i'm not sure to be honest O_O
[23:30] <wxl> i know there is an lxde one
[23:31] <wxl> or at least that they offer that as an option
[23:31] <wxl> default de is gnome tho
[23:31] <wxl> which is to say they like their gtk XD
[23:32] <wxl> brb again
[23:34] <melodie> :)
[23:34] <melodie> Debian netinstall used to be my favorite
[23:35] <wxl> back
[23:35] <wxl> i honestly haven't installed debian in a loooooooooooooong time
[23:38] <melodie> no problem
[23:39] <melodie> I guess I can do a netinstall the same way I pick up UMR and install the needed packages in it. I just have to be carefull to start with the xorg suite and continue with the system packages before hitting the ones for the environment