[13:59] <dholbach> does anyone of you want to join the hangout?
[14:00] <dholbach> (starting in a minute or two)
[14:00] <dholbach> ok... if you want to join the conversation later on, let me know
[14:02] <elopio> o/
[14:05] <dholbach> which experience have you had with snappy so far and what have you done with it?
[14:06] <dholbach> it'd be great if you could join the hangout, so we could hear more about your thoughts
[14:06] <dholbach> anyone?
[14:07] <Thibautr> I have tried Snappy on Raspberry Pi, BeagleBone, VM, mainly trying initially to play with it and installing apps.
[14:07] <sergiusens> dholbach, how do I join? or should I join?
[14:08] <kyrofa> My biggest issue with the on-boarding process was that the documentation online was terribly out-of-date and I was pointed to the src to read ITS docs since they're more up-to-date
[14:08] <Thibautr> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYeI_Q90YrhaSHfFTnhJ0s6x6TqDm3zADvBsnxoBU1t5JqoerA
[14:08] <Thibautr> this is the link to the hangout
[14:08] <ogra_> yeah, sadly snappy is still moving very fast with things changing at times
[14:08] <ogra_> and docs only being updated subsequently
[14:09] <kyrofa> ogra_, and that's understandable, but it would be great to change the docs at the same pace
[14:09] <kyrofa> Maybe it should be more automated
[14:09] <dholbach> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYeI_Q90YrhaSHfFTnhJ0s6x6TqDm3zADvBsnxoBU1t5JqoerA
[14:09] <ogra_> there are attempst to do that by maintaining the docs inside the code
[14:09] <dholbach> ^if you want to join
[14:09] <ogra_> and by automatically aggregating them
[14:09] <kyrofa> Ah, that would be great :)
[14:10] <ogra_> it already happens for some documentation
[14:10] <dholbach> kyrofa, which docs were out-of-date?
[14:10] <elopio> what we are missing is an integration test for docs. If the test fails, the docs and the test need to be updated.
[14:11] <dholbach> taking notes here: http://pad.ubuntu.com/uos-1511-core-1511-snappy-onboarding-feedback
[14:11] <ali1234> i'm an ubuntu user but frankly snappy is so different and weird that it doesn't help at all
[14:11] <dholbach> ali1234, what is confusing or bewildering?
[14:11] <kyrofa> Is that... sergiusens??
[14:11] <elopio> ali1234: tell us more about your use case.
[14:12] <ogra_> ali1234, depends what you want to do :)
[14:12] <kyrofa> He's alive!
[14:12] <ogra_> kyrofa, he pretends to
[14:12] <kyrofa> Hahaha
[14:12] <ogra_> (in reality he is lying in bed and only driving that puppet on a stick that you see in the HO
[14:12] <ogra_> )
[14:13] <sergiusens> kyrofa, yes
[14:13] <ali1234> elopio: i don't have a use case, i don't even know enough about snappy to know if it would be useful to me or not
[14:13] <sergiusens> no, I am better :-)
[14:13] <sergiusens> kyrofa, from tuesday, s/sick/ill/
[14:13] <elopio> ali1234: try installing the lxd snap, and deploy a ubuntu wily container.
[14:14] <ogra_> ali1234, did you take a look at snapcraft already ? (the "apt-get for github" as someone called it recently)
[14:14] <ali1234> ogra_: i googled it about half an hour ago, all i found was stuff about minecraft
[14:15] <ogra_> heh
[14:15] <ogra_> i guess we need to do better with google scoring
[14:16] <kyrofa> ali1234, I always suggest prepending your search with "ubuntu"
[14:16] <Thibautr> Who's got a Raspberry Pi?
[14:16] <ali1234> i do
[14:16] <jrwren> I do
[14:16] <sergiusens> Thibautr, i don't see your lower third :-)
[14:16] <ogra_> ali1234, there are definitely a bunch of tutorials on youtube how to use it
[14:16] <elopio> Thibautr: I like that. I want my rpi to be my kodi box.
[14:17] <jrwren> elopio: openelec makes that very easy and awesome.
[14:17] <alecu> I own several raspis, but only one is model 2
[14:17]  * ogra_ wants his rpi to steer his heating and solar power system
[14:18] <Thibautr> What would you like to use your Raspberry Pi for?
[14:18] <elopio> I like my bbb better, but I want to use it to hack.
[14:18] <ali1234> i use mine as a jtag debugger and i2c sniffer
[14:19] <alecu> elopio: the advantage of the raspi over other boards is availability
[14:19] <jrwren> garage door open detector/alarm
[14:19] <alecu> elopio: it's much easier to get your hands on a raspi
[14:19] <Thibautr> Who's using their Rpi2 on a daily basis?
[14:20] <elopio> and I would like to replace the openwrt on my router with ubuntu.
[14:20] <willcooke> Thibautr, I have a use case we could use
[14:20] <jrwren> rpi2 - yes, daily - openelec/kodi
[14:20] <elopio> no, not daily yet.
[14:20] <jrwren> garage door open detector - unsure about power requirements and which sensors would be best. Little time.
[14:21] <elopio> jrwren: how easy is to update your openelec?
[14:26] <alecu> QUESTION: I'd love to use my raspi2 with snappy for my electromechanical games, but I need sound support. Are audio drivers supported already? Is that already using pulse or plain alsa?
[14:27] <lool> wililupy: snap services run as root any way
[14:27] <lool> err sorry willcooke
[14:27] <ogra_> willcooke, on snappy you always run everything as root ...
[14:27] <lool> willcooke: but you'll need to give access to /sys files to your snap
[14:27] <ogra_> i mean your snap does
[14:27] <lool> rick and jamie wrote stuff on this
[14:27] <lool> ogra_: (commands run as the user who runs them though)
[14:28] <ogra_> oh, right, but services dont
[14:28] <ogra_> i can definitely include needed bits indeed
[14:28] <ogra_> if there is anythin to include
[14:29] <willcooke> Thibautr, https://github.com/8none1/thermostat
[14:29] <willcooke> NO LAUGHING!
[14:29]  * tedg can't stop laughing
[14:29] <ogra_> giggling allowwed ?
[14:30] <tedg> Why are their sunny icons? I thought you were in England?
[14:30] <tedg> there
[14:31] <ali1234> QUESTION: how will development look when the tools themselves are packaged in snaps?
[14:31] <elopio> all code and no pep8 makes /me a dull boy :)
[14:31] <jrwren> elopio: very easy. copy files into place and restart and the system updates itself.
[14:32] <ogra_> ali1234, you will have a "classic" mode on snappy
[14:32] <ogra_> ali1234, meanin you can install a developer snap that gets you a deb based container
[14:32] <ali1234> i wanted to use snappy on my robot but it is built around the pi A+ so that was a none starter
[14:32] <wililupy> I had an issue with snapcraft .3 where I built a snap and it would fail saying it couldn't find /dev/null, but it seems to be fixed in .4 I successfully built my snap last night.
[14:32] <ogra_> in which you then can use snapcraft
[14:32] <sergiusens> kyrofa, want to share anything ros and ubuntu core?
[14:33] <ali1234> ogra_: so basically if i'm a developer i will not ever use snap packages myself?
[14:33] <ogra_> you will use them as the end result
[14:33] <ogra_> to run and test them
[14:33] <ali1234> what if i only write development tools?
[14:34] <ogra_> you might be able to roll your own classic mode for this and provide it in the store,
[14:34] <kyrofa> sergiusens, I have no snappy+ROS experience to share, I'm afraid. I'd love to but I don't have any robotic hardware around here :(
[14:34] <ali1234> say i write a tool like cmake
[14:34] <sergiusens> wililupy, good to know, feel free to log any bugs or send email to snappy-app-devel@ or #snappy with any issues; blockers for adoption we look at solving quicker than others
[14:34] <ali1234> do i have to bundle gcc and every other compiler ever into the biggest snap ever in order to make it work?
[14:34] <ogra_> ali1234, then you will provide a snapcraft plugin for it and perhaps your own classic mode snap that includes it by default (or get it included into the existing one)
[14:35] <ogra_> ali1234, for development you will likely simply not use snappy itself, it is rather a delivery thing, your development happens outside of the deployment (in a classic container, on a desktop etc)
[14:36] <ali1234> ogra_: i thought the plan was to convert the desktop to snaps?
[14:36] <ogra_> it is
[14:36] <sergiusens> https://linuxcontainers.org/lxd/getting-started-cli/
[14:36] <ogra_> and there you will also use a classic container to develop ;)
[14:37] <ali1234> ogra_: i saw the session yesterday about legacy apps
[14:37] <ogra_> yeah, classic mode is a bit more than that
[14:37] <ali1234> libertine i think it's called?
[14:37] <ogra_> libertine adds confinement to not confined apps
[14:37] <ogra_> by wrapping a chroot or container
[14:37] <ali1234> okay
[14:38] <ogra_> classic gives youa complete dev env in a container
[14:38] <ali1234> so if i have to always work inside a classic container to do anything, why should i care about snappy?
[14:38] <ogra_> that enables you to have it spit out a snap you can immediately install on your desktop
[14:38] <ogra_> because snappy is your base system
[14:39] <ali1234> but i cant do anything with it without a classic container
[14:39] <ogra_> if you want to install your produced binary you will have to generate a snap
[14:39] <ali1234> so i might as well just install my software inside the container and use it that way
[14:39] <ogra_> you can indeed :)
[14:40] <ali1234> it seems like most of the software i write would not work in a snap
[14:40] <wililupy> QUESTION: How do I get my snap to show the correct version instead of random letters? Does it not get this from the version: flag in the snapcraft.yaml?
[14:40] <ogra_> but if you want to deliver it to others whats easier ? telling them "select this snap from the snap store on your PC" or "read and follow this howto to set up a container and install these 25 debs inside"
[14:40] <dholbach> wililupy, that's if you use a side-loaded version
[14:40] <Chipaca> wililupy: not when sideloading
[14:40] <dholbach> if it comes from the store, it gets a proper version number
[14:41] <Chipaca> dholbach: for now :)
[14:41] <Chipaca> bah
[14:41] <Chipaca> wililupy: the "for now" is because, what do you need the "proper" version number for?
[14:41] <Chipaca> wililupy: often it's to hardcode the version in a path somewhere
[14:41] <Chipaca> wililupy: and you shouldn't do that
[14:41] <wililupy> It was for a demo, I just wanted to clean it up.
[14:41] <ogra_> ali1234, right, if you only work on core build tools or some such you are definitely better off with debs ... but perhaps in contexxxt of a classic mode that already contains yoyur tools (and your preferred IDE and all libs your tools consume etc)
[14:42] <ogra_> so you might want a snap to make it easier for other devs to make use of your tool
[14:43] <ogra_> ali1234, and you want snappy for your OS because a release to release upgrade will take 2min vs 2h, it will automatically roll back in case somethin went wrong etc etc
[14:44] <Chipaca> wililupy: to support rapid dev iterations where you change something, rebuild, install, repeatedly on the device _without having to bump the version every time_, the version when sideloaded is ~random
[14:44] <Chipaca> it's actually a timestamp, but same thing
[14:47] <wililupy> Thank you all for the information.
[14:48] <dholbach> mvo_, sergiusens, Chipaca: do you have an answer for alecu and his audio framework? :)
[14:49] <Chipaca> i missed the question
[14:49] <alecu>  QUESTION: I'd love to use my raspi2 with snappy for my electromechanical games, but I need sound support. Are audio drivers supported already? Is that already using pulse or plain alsa?
[14:49] <dholbach> or ogra^
[14:49] <Chipaca> ah!
[14:49] <Chipaca> alecu: just plain alsa should work
[14:49] <alecu> great!
[14:49] <Chipaca> alecu: as long as it's a single snap wanting to use sound
[14:50] <Chipaca> alecu: and you do the hw-assign dance, i imagine (try it and tell us :)
[14:50] <alecu> Chipaca: yes, that sounds perfect
[14:50] <ali1234> ogra_: my concern is that i'll end up with a huge amount of stuff installed manually in classic mode, and upgrading the base OS won't magically upgrade all that stuff
[14:50] <alecu> Chipaca: I will
[14:51] <ogra_> ali1234, well, then snappy is probably only interesting for users of your stuff
[14:51] <ogra_> and not for yourself
[14:51] <ali1234> ogra_: i am the only user for 99% of the software i write
[14:51] <ogra_> right
[14:52] <ogra_> so the more interesting thng for you might to provide a snapcraft plugin for users that acually want to use your tools and youself stay with deb
[14:52] <ogra_> (if you actually want users :) )
[14:54] <dholbach> nice one
[14:54] <dholbach> thanks everyone
[14:54] <wililupy> Thanks!
[14:54] <willcooke> thanks
[14:55] <elopio> thank you!
[14:55] <ogra_> thanks !
[14:55]  * ali1234 goes to #snappy
[15:00] <dholbach> all right... does anyone want to join the hangout?
[15:00] <dholbach> this session is about snappy (online) resources
[15:05] <Thibautr> Who uses primarily Stack Overflow when trying to solve a problem?
[15:05] <ali1234> it depends on the problem
[15:06] <ali1234> if it is very very technical and ubuntu-specific i have not had much luck with AU
[15:06] <ali1234> actually that gos for pretty much anything very technical
[15:06] <Thibautr> So do you switch to Google?
[15:06] <Thibautr> I mean googling your problem?
[15:06] <ali1234> no, i start with google
[15:06] <Thibautr> OK :D
[15:07] <ali1234> if that fails i will either ask on SO if it's something ... i dunno how to say it but kind of "mid level"
[15:07] <ali1234> if it's extremely technical i look at the source and then go and ask the person on irc
[15:08] <ali1234> often google leads me to an existing answer on SO!
[15:08] <ali1234> that's why i start there
[15:09] <tedg> Really SO is an excellent SEO job :-)
[15:09] <ali1234> i don't care where the answer is as long as google can find it :)
[15:09] <Thibautr> aahaha
[15:09] <ali1234> the only thing i don't really like is mailing lists because the archives are hard to read and failing that you have to subscribe etc
[15:09] <sergiusens> can someone write a telegram plugin so I get pinged about askubuntu questions tagged snapcraft?
[15:10] <tedg> That would be cool
[15:10] <sergiusens> QUESTION ^
[15:10] <tedg> Hmm, searching Google for anything about stack overflow doesn't get what you watn.
[15:11] <ali1234> sergiusens: i could probably hack that together
[15:12] <sergiusens> ali1234, that would be nice :-)
[15:12] <sergiusens> askubuntu only has one snapcraft question
[15:12] <sergiusens> from dpm
[15:13] <tedg> Oh, we'll need it to filter out questions from dpm ;-)
[15:13] <Thibautr> SO to RSS , RSS to telegram?
[15:14] <sergiusens> Thibautr, there's already an irc bot that spits questions from askubuntu for ubunut-touch
[15:14] <sergiusens> I just want to transform that to telegram ;-)
[15:14] <Thibautr> SO to RSS , RSS to IRC, IRC to Telegram :D
[15:14] <ali1234> there's bots for telegram apparently
[15:14] <Thibautr> mmm
[15:14] <sergiusens> ali1234, yup, we have one for lp bug reports already
[15:15] <ali1234> so all the code exists, just a matter of merging it together... that's pretty much my specialty
[15:18] <sergiusens> if we need a list, what better that SO ?
[15:18] <sergiusens> keep it dynamic
[15:19] <dholbach> do you have a feel for what might be more popular or a better venue? SO or AU?
[15:20] <sergiusens> askubuntu
[15:20] <sergiusens> I was conflating SO as the same thing
[15:20] <ali1234> that's a really difficult one. i feel like on one hand AU makes more logical sense, but AU has always seemed to be end-user focused
[15:20] <zyga> hey
[15:20] <tedg> Gonna have to figure out how to log into AU again...
[15:21] <ali1234> tedg: i use launchpad openid
[15:21] <tedg> ali1234: I used my own, then they dropped V1 and I haven't upgraded.
[15:21] <ali1234> doh
[15:22] <Thibautr> Looks like you can only do SO to email
[15:24] <sergiusens> no
[15:24] <sergiusens> ah, I don't at least
[15:25] <Thibautr> you can't do it?
[15:25] <Thibautr> http://stackexchange.com/filters/210379/ubuntu-core
[15:25] <ogra_> Thibautr, i definitely dont want to get all 750 IRC pings i get per day piped to telegram on my phone :P
[15:25] <Thibautr> ahah
[15:25] <Thibautr> email it can be
[15:27] <tedg> For workshops generally, I think that virt-manager is better.
[15:28] <tedg> Everyone can use that and get it running, they don't need specific hardware.
[15:28] <tedg> Besides the docker snap failing, I think I had a good one put together :-)
[15:32] <Thibautr> I would do a workshop for non Ubuntu users too :D
[15:32] <tedg> Wait, who are these people you speak of?
[15:32] <ali1234> QUESTION: any plans for webinar style demos? like the ubuntu learning week? haven't seen one of those for a while
[15:33] <tedg> We do snappy clinics
[15:33] <ogra_> Thibautr, then you likely want virtualbox
[15:33] <tedg> ali1234: They're on the ubuntu-on-air schedule
[15:33] <ogra_> ali1234, yes, they happen recular
[15:33] <ogra_> *regular
[15:33] <tedg> ali1234: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-qBHd6_LXWYm8qttcXaosAIzejTa5IPj
[15:34] <ali1234> those seem more question-and-answer?
[15:34] <tedg> dholbach: Can we get the ROS UOS session in that playlist?
[15:34] <tedg> Oh, I was just joking about non-Ubuntu users.
[15:35] <Thibautr> ali1234 , would you like us to do more show and tell part of the Snappy Clinic?
[15:35] <ogra_> ali1234, it is tutorials but people ask questions on IRC while they happen :)
[15:35] <ali1234> i'd like to see someone install snappy core on a raspberry pi, then install a very simple snap like a LED blinker, all in one session, no interruptions, demo problems etc :)
[15:36] <ali1234> not just show-and-tell but actually showing every command run to achieve it
[15:37] <ali1234> i remember seeing a juju demo along those lines once
[15:37] <dholbach> tedg, can you drop me a mail with that, so I don't forget? I can try to get it on there
[15:38] <Thibautr> ubuntu-core TV!
[15:39] <tedg> dholbach: sent
[16:00] <dholbach> anyone who wants to join the porting session?
[16:01] <elopio> I want to.
[16:01] <zt> me
[16:02] <dholbach> cool
[16:02] <dholbach> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYcfsOpn06JCaJMFwxKzAv0Yel_ooGg-QnomzZA7SO2Y9ZLKvg
[16:03] <dholbach> the notes ar up on http://pad.ubuntu.com/uos-1511-core-1511-porting-raspberry-pi-apps-to-snappy
[16:04] <elopio> I will take notes
[16:04] <dholbach> if anyone of you wants so add more thoughts to it, please go ahead
[16:05] <dholbach> zt, ^ there's the link for the hangout
[16:05] <dholbach> does that work for you?
[16:05] <tedg> I think the real question comes down to graphics. How do we expect people to use a display on the Raspberry Pi2?
[16:06] <ali1234> i see a list of various libraries on the pad... gstreamer is conspicuously absent, and it's without doubt the best way to stream video out of the pi camera
[16:06] <ali1234> and especially when used with gst-rpicamsrc - which unfortunately does not seem to be even packaged
[16:06] <kyrofa> tedg, ooo yeah, good question
[16:07] <dholbach> ali1234, adding gstreamer
[16:07] <ali1234> (i actually use gstreamer in my robot)
[16:09] <ali1234> the most popular apps if you asked every rpi user would be kodi, emulation-station, and some generic NAS software
[16:10] <ali1234> personally i'd like to see mythtv-backend
[16:11] <elopio> ali1234: emulation station, like a play station emulator?
[16:11] <ali1234> emulation-station is like a front end for every emulator
[16:11] <tedg> I think an interesting example might be a Deb repo mirror. It is one that a lot of Ubuntu power users/devs might find very practical. :-)
[16:11] <ali1234> tedg: oooh that's a good one yeah
[16:11] <elopio> tedg: yeah, cache.
[16:12] <kyrofa> I agree with kodi, that seems to be a big rpi thing
[16:12] <ali1234> http://emulationstation.org/
[16:12] <tedg> Squid with adblock might also be popular with folks.
[16:13] <tedg> I think that mzagnetti did a Guh snap. Might be interesting to promote that more.
[16:13] <kyrofa> Is there a way to run multiple websites behind apache or nginx yet?
[16:13] <dholbach> tedg, what's Guh?
[16:14] <tedg> dholbach: https://github.com/guh/guh/wiki/Getting-started-snappy
[16:14] <dholbach> ok :)
[16:14] <thibautr> http://notyetthere.org/snap-up-your-home/
[16:15] <lool> I dont know whether we still want openwrt as a snap
[16:16] <lool> it's more inspiration for what we'd want to provide in terms of features
[16:16] <kyrofa> I'd love to make a few web app snaps but I figure a bundled apache won't allow for multiple of those snaps being installed
[16:16] <lool> lucy is the web UI of openwrt
[16:16] <thibautr> hi mkarliner!
[16:17] <mkarliner> hi
[16:17] <dholbach> hey hey
[16:17] <mkarliner> +1 for mosquitto 1.4!!!
[16:19] <mkarliner> There is an issue with the underlying websockets on 1.4
[16:19] <mkarliner> ah thanks
[16:19] <mkarliner> Its an MQTT broker 1.4 supports websockets
[16:22] <ali1234> +1 for arduino/avr development
[16:23] <mkarliner> use node-red on RPi...
[16:23] <mkarliner> With arduino plugin
[16:23] <ali1234> there's more to AVR than just arduino... tools like dfu-update and avrdude for ICSP
[16:25] <ali1234> there's a raspberry pi utility that turns it into a logic analyser that streams to your PC
[16:25] <ali1234> that's what i use for i2c sniffing as well
[16:30] <thibautr> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ncubehome/ncube-the-only-app-youll-need-for-your-smart-home
[16:30] <tedg> thibautr: Is that this guy? http://samnazarko.co.uk/about/
[16:32] <thibautr> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/b/2cec897a-1bec-4e17-9168-304c2afb6902
[16:32] <thibautr> this guy ... the UK alternative to Nest :D
[16:37] <ali1234> everyone will vote for kodi :)
[16:39] <ali1234> there's an entire raspberry distribution for kodi
[16:39] <ali1234> like a whole disk image
[16:40] <dholbach> thanks everyone!
[16:40] <tedg> I'd like to see us get it as a release target for the kodi upstream
[16:40] <tedg> Rather than someone in our community doing a package.
[16:40] <lool> thibautr: it's team maintained in Debian
[16:40] <lool> dunno in Ubuntu
[16:40] <lool> Balint Reczey seems to be the recurring uploader
[16:47] <tedg> thibautr: ncube is pretty interesting.
[17:46] <dholbach> slangasek, do you know who'll run the F2FS session?
[17:46] <dholbach> the summary of the python3 session also is still missing
[17:46] <slangasek> dholbach: I do not; I didn't approve/schedule this session, did you?
[17:47] <dholbach> sorry, I did - I put it on the schedule since it seemed like it was forgotten - I can remove it though
[17:48] <dholbach> popey, ^ do you know if Martin wanted to run this?
[17:57] <popey> dholbach, i don't
[17:57] <dholbach> hum......
[17:57] <dholbach> anyone who's running this session?
[17:58] <popey> did martin ask for it?
[17:58]  * popey pings him on telegram
[17:59] <dholbach> attendees of the session are: Teg, Martin Wimpress, Jorge O. Castro, Alan Pope ㋛
[17:59] <dholbach> and as I didn't know Teg....
[17:59] <dholbach> if nobody shows up to lead the session, we could still make it a discussion on the mailing list
[18:03] <dholbach> ok... I'll remove it from the schedule
[18:03] <dholbach> slangasek, ^
[18:06] <slangasek> dholbach: fine with me
[18:06] <slangasek> thanks
[18:06] <popey> checked with martin, he didn't make it
[18:06] <popey> no idea who did
[18:07] <slangasek> teg made it
[18:07] <slangasek> but I don't know teg
[18:07] <slangasek> not here and no email listed in lp