| Spass | hello | 01:07 |
|---|---|---|
| knome | hello | 01:10 |
| Spass | will GNOME Software app be default in Xubuntu 16.04? | 01:10 |
| knome | no idea | 01:11 |
| knome | depends how well it seems to work, how integrated it will be, how many known bugs there are... | 01:11 |
| Unit193 | Not unlikely though. | 01:12 |
| knome | no, but at this point, there is no best guess whether it will be default or not | 01:12 |
| Spass | I hope Xubuntu dev team will consider Synaptic to be default GUI software management | 01:13 |
| Unit193 | You mean just because it's not even in the repo means we can't have a solid answer, knome? :'( | 01:13 |
| Unit193 | :P | 01:13 |
| knome | synaptic isn't exactly the most user-friendliest GUI, that's why USC has been picked over it before | 01:13 |
| knome | or at least it's not the perfect GUI for the regular user | 01:14 |
| Unit193 | Well, and the other did paid apps from Canonical and the like, iirc. | 01:14 |
| knome | don't know how many xubuntu users used that feature, but that too | 01:15 |
| knome | advanced users tend to want to use apt-get anyway | 01:15 |
| knome | but i guess it can be said that synaptic will be at least "considered" | 01:16 |
| knome | have fun figuring out the subtones and interpretations you can make of that :P | 01:17 |
| knome | Spass, did the above absurd discussion answer your question at all? | 01:17 |
| Spass | you're right, probably availability of paid apps will be a reason why we will see Gnome Software in Xubuntu 16.04 | 01:18 |
| Spass | I'm just little councerned about all these "newer" gnome apps in Xubuntu, they just don't seem to fit to Xubuntu/Xfce as a whole | 01:19 |
| Unit193 | Spass: I'll trow a fit if it drags in too many deps, don't worry. :P | 01:20 |
| Unit193 | As it is, not *too* bad. | 01:20 |
| Unit193 | http://paste.debian.net/323597/ on Debian "Xubuntu" | 01:20 |
| knome | Spass, feel free to suggest reasonable alternatives that fit in better... | 01:20 |
| knome | Unit193, also how much can we drop for dropping USC | 01:21 |
| knome | and how heavy are the other options | 01:21 |
| Unit193 | Synaptic was the only one I could think of too.. | 01:21 |
| Unit193 | knome: What other options? | 01:21 |
| knome | Unit193, wasn't there a lubuntu software center or something like that? :P | 01:21 |
| Spass | old news i suppose http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2015/11/the-ubuntu-software-centre-is-being-replace-in-16-04-lts | 01:22 |
| Unit193 | knome: I think we're rejecting that too. | 01:22 |
| knome | Spass, that covers the ubuntu desktop only | 01:23 |
| Spass | yes, but that means USC is dead in my opinion | 01:24 |
| Unit193 | Yes. | 01:25 |
| Spass | and there will be no reason to add it to 16.04 in any Ubuntu flavour | 01:25 |
| knome | except that it's still what it is, etc... | 01:25 |
| knome | and who says nobody picks up maintaining it? | 01:26 |
| Unit193 | Is there a CLA attached to it? | 01:26 |
| Unit193 | And, I'd bet against it, fwiw. | 01:26 |
| knome | no idea | 01:26 |
| * knome collects the bets | 01:26 | |
| knome | note: a 95% commission is taken from the bets | 01:27 |
| knome | anybody else? | 01:27 |
| Unit193 | moun! | 01:32 |
| * drc bets 10 coprolites against...want your commission now? | 01:33 | |
| knome | bets only in cookies. | 01:33 |
| drc | what's the exchange rate (chocolate chip <> Oreos)? | 01:35 |
| knome | everything counts as one. | 01:35 |
| knome | except anything with coconut | 01:35 |
| Spass | quiz time, one of these apps don't fit in http://wstaw.org/m/2015/11/06/quiz.png | 01:35 |
| knome | they count as zero | 01:35 |
| knome | Spass, you can hide CSD | 01:36 |
| Spass | that will be nice! I did't know that, in that case I must find out how | 01:38 |
| Spass | thanks | 01:38 |
| knome | ask Unit193 and find out | 01:38 |
| Spass | gtk3-nocsd? | 01:38 |
| Unit193 | Spass: Depends on the application, but sometimes all you can do is http://mentors.debian.net/package/gtk3-nocsd | 02:18 |
| Unit193 | CSDs are aweful. Seems like GNOME's attempt at being Windows (along with systemd and dbus.) :P | 02:21 |
| Spass | yes CSDs are really out of place in Xubuntu, it breaks an immersion of Xubuntu being a "fully ready product" | 02:31 |
| Spass | I manage to use gtk3-nocsd globally (~/.profile) but I'm struggling to make it work with selected apps only | 02:33 |
| Spass | but I'm on the right track I think, big thanks for the hint | 02:33 |
| Spass | I'm basing on this HowTo http://www.webupd8.org/2014/08/how-to-disable-gtk3-client-side.html | 02:37 |
| Unit193 | I'd go with the package, much higher quality. :P | 02:47 |
| Spass | well, seems like it won't work with my gtk+ 3.16.7 on 15.10 | 02:58 |
| Spass | but in my opinion something like gtk3-nocsd should be considered as a main package for the new release of Xubuntu ;) | 02:59 |
| Unit193 | No, it's a bit of a hack, I surely wouldn't. | 03:01 |
| Spass | good hack can easily become a feature, but you're right, in this form is too hardcore to be "main" | 03:04 |
| Spass | a good and elegant way to getting rid of CSD is a good discussion topic for the new Xubuntu releases, I think | 03:07 |
| Unit193 | We can't realistically patch it out of all the applications that use it, thankfully Ubuntu has somewhat in the past, but not sure that'll continue. At least xfwm handles headerbars well now. | 03:26 |
| micahg | flocculant: thanks | 05:00 |
| ochosi | Spass__ Actually no, we shouldn't consider such a hack for inclusion and as Unit193 correctly inferred, we cannot patch the headerbars out. from what i read in #u-desktop they're still undecided on the subject but i guess slowly leaning towards CSD | 10:28 |
| Unit193 | Which is quiiiite the bummer. | 10:29 |
| knome | ochosi, wasn't that possible earlier? | 10:40 |
| Spass__ | too much gnome3 in xubuntu and that makes me really sad | 10:58 |
| Spass__ | us we all should know, gnome3 is an unholy mess ;) | 11:08 |
| akxwi_dave | Morning all | 11:08 |
| ali1234 | Spass__: what software do you use that has header bars? | 11:30 |
| ali1234 | the only thing i can find is the calculator | 11:30 |
| Spass__ | fortunately not too many - catfish, calculator, menulibre, some games... | 11:32 |
| Spass__ | but with every release i see more | 11:33 |
| ali1234 | you're using 15.10? | 11:33 |
| Spass__ | yes | 11:33 |
| Unit193 | catfish and menulibre are Xubuntu specific. | 11:33 |
| ali1234 | neither of them have headerbars on 15.04 | 11:33 |
| ali1234 | galculator is a good replacement for calculator | 11:35 |
| Spass__ | yes, i use galculator now, but i dislike that it doesn't show operations (i mean like "6+32-6") | 11:37 |
| Spass__ | in 15.10 http://wstaw.org/m/2015/11/06/deco.png | 11:38 |
| Spass__ | and more "gnome3 look" apps to come in 16.04 i'm afraid | 11:42 |
| knome | Spass__, well you know, complaining isn't going to fix the issue, nor blaming gnome3 for it | 12:12 |
| Spass__ | i know, i'm just trying to be open with my concerns as an user, i know i can't fix it, but maybe the issue will be discussed in wider "more powerful" group | 12:17 |
| knome | be assured, we've heard your concern | 12:18 |
| knome | and this has been discussed even before you expressed your personal concern | 12:18 |
| knome | i guess i should explain myself more... | 12:21 |
| knome | i'm happy that users get involved - thanks for that | 12:21 |
| knome | but i would be more happy if they could bring something new to the discussion too :) | 12:22 |
| knome | or propose a solution they would like | 12:22 |
| knome | with this issue, gnome3 is like it is, and applications do what they do, and we only have so much things we can do to avoid them | 12:22 |
| knome | should we only use applications that doesn't use CSD? | 12:23 |
| knome | how long is that possible? | 12:23 |
| knome | are the applications that are not using CSD maintained? | 12:23 |
| knome | if not, is it sensible to use them? | 12:23 |
| knome | if we have N applications that use CSD, does it make a big difference to add one more? | 12:24 |
| Spass__ | well.. the only solution i can see for the newer releases, assuming that CSD will be a thing in xubuntu is that you could use XFWM theme imitating that look as default | 12:24 |
| ali1234 | i think we should seriously consider galculator, it's well maintained and default in ubuntu mate and lubuntu | 12:24 |
| knome | Spass__, we are using greybird which is pretty close | 12:25 |
| Spass__ | like "Greybird-accessibility" but without button borders | 12:25 |
| knome | ali1234, but that's a solution just for one of the applications... | 12:25 |
| ali1234 | there can't be a single solution for all applications | 12:26 |
| knome | of course not | 12:26 |
| knome | but sure, we can definitely consider galculator | 12:26 |
| knome | though if it doesn't show the calculations as Spass__ said, then i would personally still prefer gnome-calculator | 12:27 |
| ali1234 | t does have a mode where it shows the calculation actually | 12:30 |
| knome | sounds good | 12:30 |
| ali1234 | calculator->notation mode->formula entry | 12:31 |
| ali1234 | you probably won't like it though, it's a little bit weird | 12:31 |
| knome | right... | 12:32 |
| ali1234 | catfish and menulibre having headerbars might be a bug | 12:34 |
| knome | aha? | 12:35 |
| ali1234 | well they're both maintained by xubuntu developers | 12:35 |
| ali1234 | so it's not like we'd have to fork them to remove the headerbars | 12:36 |
| ali1234 | there's a commit on catfish that says "optional CSD" | 12:38 |
| ali1234 | keyword "optional" | 12:38 |
| knome | i believe it's a build-time option | 12:38 |
| ali1234 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~catfish-search/catfish-search/trunk/revision/384#catfish_lib/CatfishSettings.py | 12:39 |
| knome | i'm still wondering where the bug is :) | 12:39 |
| ali1234 | that might not have made it into 15.10 | 12:39 |
| ali1234 | by bug i simply mean it was unintentional/unavoidable, not actually a code typo or something | 12:39 |
| knome | not at all | 12:40 |
| Spass__ | ok, i made this simple mod http://wstaw.org/m/2015/11/06/3_2.png | 12:40 |
| ali1234 | knome: are you saying that the headerbars were a specific design decision for xubuntu? | 12:41 |
| Spass__ | if we want uniformity with CSD apps, the only way for now is matching XFWM theme | 12:41 |
| knome | ali1234, i'm saying that the CSD for them didn't appear accidentally | 12:42 |
| ali1234 | okay, and will they be turned off in 16.04, given that that is an option? | 12:43 |
| knome | Spass__, using the huge titlebar without any extra functionality over a smaller one seems silly to me | 12:43 |
| Spass__ | that makes window decorations somewhat huge, but it can be slimmer but with that style (slight gradient, line in the bottom, buttons) | 12:43 |
| knome | also, is a complete uniformity really needed? | 12:44 |
| Spass__ | yes it is silly, but it is one way to go | 12:44 |
| knome | there will always be apps that look a bit different | 12:44 |
| Spass__ | the less such applications, the better for end user experience with the system IMHO | 12:45 |
| knome | i think that's debatable | 12:45 |
| Spass__ | everything is | 12:45 |
| Spass__ | and that is ok | 12:45 |
| knome | if 9/10 apps are uniform, a then ununiform application appears, wouldn't that be weirder? | 12:45 |
| knome | ultimately we can't control what apps the user installs | 12:45 |
| knome | i don't think the CSD/regular xfwm there are too far apart even now | 12:46 |
| knome | anwyay, got to go | 12:48 |
| knome | bbl | 12:48 |
| Spass__ | well, if "not too far apart" is satisfying for you, then further discussion on my part does not seem to make sense | 12:51 |
| Spass__ | http://www.funnymemes.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/close-enough.jpeg | 12:53 |
| ali1234 | at the end of the day we can't fix everything | 12:54 |
| Spass__ | yes we can! :D | 12:55 |
| flocculant | no we can't | 12:56 |
| ali1234 | one day i am going to snap and just write my own desktop from scratch | 12:56 |
| Spass__ | ehh... back to my negative-self | 12:57 |
| krytarik | knome, slickyma1ter, Unit193: Heh, just noticed I forgot to 'add' some new/moved files in my modified docs branch :P - http://paste.openstack.org/show/Hg0LAylqKGtgoYCrHkwV/ | 14:57 |
| slickymasterWork | knome, krytarik, flocculant | 16:16 |
| slickymasterWork | I saw your pings re -docs. Haven't answer them because my father underwent a surgery and in the postoperative contracted a bacterial infection | 16:17 |
| slickymasterWork | so things are a bit confused | 16:17 |
| slickymasterWork | I'll try to catch up during this weekend | 16:18 |
| krytarik | knome, slickywork: To summarize the current changes (just added it to the changelog too): http://paste.openstack.org/show/d81SHEeesrBnKJoPsFpx/ | 16:55 |
| bluesabre | for the xfce, xubuntu, csd comments... xfce will not always look like xfce does now | 17:09 |
| bluesabre | at some point, we make design decisions folks don't agree on, but are better in the long run (http://xwinman.org/screenshots/xfce-default.jpg) | 17:09 |
| drc | woah! flashback :) | 17:10 |
| * bluesabre used CDE as recently as 2014 | 17:11 | |
| bluesabre | old old systems at work :D | 17:11 |
| * drc blames Steve Jobs (but not the Great and Powerful Wo) :) | 17:12 | |
| drc | s/Wo/Woz | 17:12 |
| bluesabre | but yeah, if we try to lock in to a certain design, xubuntu will surely fall behind in a short amount of time. Instead we should focus on what works best and what our team, developers, and users are looking for, and not be afraid of change. :) | 17:13 |
| bluesabre | gotta run, bbl | 17:13 |
| bart | Hi there :) | 18:18 |
| === bart is now known as Guest30778 | ||
| Guest30778 | I tried installing 15.10 today, but I didn't get the change because of an internal error. | 18:19 |
| Guest30778 | http://imgur.com/GXRgTGq | 18:20 |
| Guest30778 | A problem with ubiquity...? Is this a known problem? | 18:20 |
| Guest30778 | 2.5 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo / 4 GB 667 MHz DDR2 SDRAM / NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT 512 MB | 18:22 |
| Guest30778 | How do I report this as a bug? | 18:29 |
| flocculant | Guest30778: this isn't a support channel exactly - #xubuntu is | 18:29 |
| flocculant | that said - you can report it by pressing continue | 18:29 |
| flocculant | as far as whether it's a known issue - I don't know about that - not seen it | 18:29 |
| Guest30778 | I see! Thank you. | 18:30 |
| flocculant | I would suggest checking the download, then reburn it to whatever you used | 18:30 |
| krytarik | Guest30778: Other than that, looks like LP bug 1495017, but it was supposedly fixed before release. | 18:32 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 1495017 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Wily) "ubiquity crashed with permission error on NetworkManager GetDevices() call" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1495017 | 18:32 |
| flocculant | yea - that got fixed - I didn't see it after that | 18:33 |
| Guest30778 | Here is a traceback: http://imgur.com/wHI1Yut | 18:34 |
| Guest30778 | Checking md5 of download | 18:34 |
| flocculant | Guest30778: even if we work out what's wrong - we can't fix it | 18:35 |
| Guest30778 | Yeah, it matches. Also tried re-burning. | 18:35 |
| Guest30778 | OK! | 18:35 |
| Guest30778 | Filed a bug report 1513929 | 18:49 |
| Guest30778 | Thanks! | 18:49 |
| ochosi | bluesabre: wow, cde? do you work in a computer archive? :D | 19:20 |
| flocculant | evening ochosi | 19:35 |
| ochosi | evening flocculant | 21:05 |
| ochosi | sorry, was afk again | 21:05 |
| flocculant | :) | 21:10 |
| knome | slickyma1ter, all the best for your dad | 21:54 |
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