Spasswill GNOME Software app be default in Xubuntu 16.04?01:10
knomeno idea01:11
knomedepends how well it seems to work, how integrated it will be, how many known bugs there are...01:11
Unit193Not unlikely though.01:12
knomeno, but at this point, there is no best guess whether it will be default or not01:12
SpassI hope Xubuntu dev team will consider Synaptic to be default GUI software management01:13
Unit193You mean just because it's not even in the repo means we can't have a solid answer, knome? :'(01:13
knomesynaptic isn't exactly the most user-friendliest GUI, that's why USC has been picked over it before01:13
knomeor at least it's not the perfect GUI for the regular user01:14
Unit193Well, and the other did paid apps from Canonical and the like, iirc.01:14
knomedon't know how many xubuntu users used that feature, but that too01:15
knomeadvanced users tend to want to use apt-get anyway01:15
knomebut i guess it can be said that synaptic will be at least "considered"01:16
knomehave fun figuring out the subtones and interpretations you can make of that :P01:17
knomeSpass, did the above absurd discussion answer your question at all?01:17
Spassyou're right, probably availability of paid apps will be a reason why we will see Gnome Software in Xubuntu 16.0401:18
SpassI'm just little councerned about all these "newer" gnome apps in Xubuntu, they just don't seem to fit to Xubuntu/Xfce as a whole01:19
Unit193Spass: I'll trow a fit if it drags in too many deps, don't worry. :P01:20
Unit193As it is, not *too* bad.01:20
Unit193http://paste.debian.net/323597/ on Debian "Xubuntu"01:20
knomeSpass, feel free to suggest reasonable alternatives that fit in better...01:20
knomeUnit193, also how much can we drop for dropping USC01:21
knomeand how heavy are the other options01:21
Unit193Synaptic was the only one I could think of too..01:21
Unit193knome: What other options?01:21
knomeUnit193, wasn't there a lubuntu software center or something like that? :P01:21
Spassold news i suppose http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2015/11/the-ubuntu-software-centre-is-being-replace-in-16-04-lts01:22
Unit193knome: I think we're rejecting that too.01:22
knomeSpass, that covers the ubuntu desktop only01:23
Spassyes, but that means USC is dead in my opinion01:24
Spassand there will be no reason to add it to 16.04 in any Ubuntu flavour01:25
knomeexcept that it's still what it is, etc...01:25
knomeand who says nobody picks up maintaining it?01:26
Unit193Is there a CLA attached to it?01:26
Unit193And, I'd bet against it, fwiw.01:26
knomeno idea01:26
* knome collects the bets01:26
knomenote: a 95% commission is taken from the bets01:27
knomeanybody else?01:27
* drc bets 10 coprolites against...want your commission now?01:33
knomebets only in cookies.01:33
drcwhat's the exchange rate (chocolate chip <> Oreos)?01:35
knomeeverything counts as one.01:35
knomeexcept anything with coconut01:35
Spassquiz time, one of these apps don't fit in http://wstaw.org/m/2015/11/06/quiz.png01:35
knomethey count as zero01:35
knomeSpass, you can hide CSD01:36
Spassthat will be nice! I did't know that, in that case I must find out how01:38
knomeask Unit193 and find out01:38
Unit193Spass: Depends on the application, but sometimes all you can do is http://mentors.debian.net/package/gtk3-nocsd02:18
Unit193CSDs are aweful.  Seems like GNOME's attempt at being Windows (along with systemd and dbus.) :P02:21
Spassyes CSDs are really out of place in Xubuntu, it breaks an immersion of Xubuntu being a "fully ready product"02:31
SpassI manage to use gtk3-nocsd globally (~/.profile) but I'm struggling to make it work with selected apps only02:33
Spassbut I'm on the right track I think, big thanks for the hint02:33
SpassI'm basing on this HowTo http://www.webupd8.org/2014/08/how-to-disable-gtk3-client-side.html02:37
Unit193I'd go with the package, much higher quality. :P02:47
Spasswell, seems like it won't work with my gtk+ 3.16.7 on 15.1002:58
Spassbut in my opinion something like gtk3-nocsd should be considered as a main package for the new release of Xubuntu ;)02:59
Unit193No, it's a bit of a hack, I surely wouldn't.03:01
Spassgood hack can easily become a feature, but you're right, in this form is too hardcore to be "main"03:04
Spassa good and elegant way to getting rid of CSD is a good discussion topic for the new Xubuntu releases, I think03:07
Unit193We can't realistically patch it out of all the applications that use it, thankfully Ubuntu has somewhat in the past, but not sure that'll continue.  At least xfwm handles headerbars well now.03:26
micahgflocculant: thanks05:00
ochosiSpass__ Actually no, we shouldn't consider such a hack for inclusion and as Unit193 correctly inferred, we cannot patch the headerbars out. from what i read in #u-desktop they're still undecided on the subject but i guess slowly leaning towards CSD10:28
Unit193Which is quiiiite the bummer.10:29
knomeochosi, wasn't that possible earlier?10:40
Spass__too much gnome3 in xubuntu and that makes me really sad10:58
Spass__us we all should know, gnome3 is an unholy mess ;)11:08
akxwi_daveMorning all11:08
ali1234Spass__: what software do you use that has header bars?11:30
ali1234the only thing i can find is the calculator11:30
Spass__fortunately not too many - catfish, calculator, menulibre, some games...11:32
Spass__but with every release i see more11:33
ali1234you're using 15.10?11:33
Unit193catfish and menulibre are Xubuntu specific.11:33
ali1234neither of them have headerbars on 15.0411:33
ali1234galculator is a good replacement for calculator11:35
Spass__yes, i use galculator now, but i dislike that it doesn't show operations (i mean like "6+32-6")11:37
Spass__in 15.10 http://wstaw.org/m/2015/11/06/deco.png11:38
Spass__and more "gnome3 look" apps to come in 16.04 i'm afraid11:42
knomeSpass__, well you know, complaining isn't going to fix the issue, nor blaming gnome3 for it12:12
Spass__i know, i'm just trying to be open with my concerns as an user, i know i can't fix it, but maybe the issue will be discussed in wider "more powerful" group12:17
knomebe assured, we've heard your concern12:18
knomeand this has been discussed even before you expressed your personal concern12:18
knomei guess i should explain myself more...12:21
knomei'm happy that users get involved - thanks for that12:21
knomebut i would be more happy if they could bring something new to the discussion too :)12:22
knomeor propose a solution they would like12:22
knomewith this issue, gnome3 is like it is, and applications do what they do, and we only have so much things we can do to avoid them12:22
knomeshould we only use applications that doesn't use CSD?12:23
knomehow long is that possible?12:23
knomeare the applications that are not using CSD maintained?12:23
knomeif not, is it sensible to use them?12:23
knomeif we have N applications that use CSD, does it make a big difference to add one more?12:24
Spass__well.. the only solution i can see for the newer releases, assuming that CSD will be a thing in xubuntu is that you could use XFWM theme imitating that look as default12:24
ali1234i think we should seriously consider galculator, it's well maintained and default in ubuntu mate and lubuntu12:24
knomeSpass__, we are using greybird which is pretty close12:25
Spass__like "Greybird-accessibility" but without button borders12:25
knomeali1234, but that's a solution just for one of the applications...12:25
ali1234there can't be a single solution for all applications12:26
knomeof course not12:26
knomebut sure, we can definitely consider galculator12:26
knomethough if it doesn't show the calculations as Spass__ said, then i would personally still prefer gnome-calculator12:27
ali1234t does have a mode where it shows the calculation actually12:30
knomesounds good12:30
ali1234calculator->notation mode->formula entry12:31
ali1234you probably won't like it though, it's a little bit weird12:31
ali1234catfish and menulibre having headerbars might be a bug12:34
ali1234well they're both maintained by xubuntu developers12:35
ali1234so it's not like we'd have to fork them to remove the headerbars12:36
ali1234there's a commit on catfish that says "optional CSD"12:38
ali1234keyword "optional"12:38
knomei believe it's a build-time option12:38
knomei'm still wondering where the bug is :)12:39
ali1234that might not have made it into 15.1012:39
ali1234by bug i simply mean it was unintentional/unavoidable, not actually a code typo or something12:39
knomenot at all12:40
Spass__ok, i made this simple mod http://wstaw.org/m/2015/11/06/3_2.png12:40
ali1234knome: are you saying that the headerbars were a specific design decision for xubuntu?12:41
Spass__if we want uniformity with CSD apps, the only way for now is matching XFWM theme12:41
knomeali1234, i'm saying that the CSD for them didn't appear accidentally12:42
ali1234okay, and will they be turned off in 16.04, given that that is an option?12:43
knomeSpass__, using the huge titlebar without any extra functionality over a smaller one seems silly to me12:43
Spass__that makes window decorations somewhat huge, but it can be slimmer but with that style (slight gradient, line in the bottom, buttons)12:43
knomealso, is a complete uniformity really needed?12:44
Spass__yes it is silly, but it is one way to go12:44
knomethere will always be apps that look a bit different12:44
Spass__the less such applications, the better for end user experience with the system IMHO12:45
knomei think that's debatable12:45
Spass__everything is12:45
Spass__and that is ok12:45
knomeif 9/10 apps are uniform, a then ununiform application appears, wouldn't that be weirder?12:45
knomeultimately we can't control what apps the user installs12:45
knomei don't think the CSD/regular xfwm there are too far apart even now12:46
knomeanwyay, got to go12:48
Spass__well, if "not too far apart" is satisfying for you, then further discussion on my part does not seem to make sense12:51
ali1234at the end of the day we can't fix everything12:54
Spass__yes we can! :D12:55
flocculantno we can't 12:56
ali1234one day i am going to snap and just write my own desktop from scratch12:56
Spass__ehh... back to my negative-self12:57
krytarikknome, slickyma1ter, Unit193: Heh, just noticed I forgot to 'add' some new/moved files in my modified docs branch :P - http://paste.openstack.org/show/Hg0LAylqKGtgoYCrHkwV/14:57
slickymasterWorkknome, krytarik, flocculant 16:16
slickymasterWorkI saw your pings re -docs. Haven't answer them because my father underwent a surgery and in the postoperative contracted a bacterial infection16:17
slickymasterWorkso things are a bit confused16:17
slickymasterWorkI'll try to catch up during this weekend16:18
krytarikknome, slickywork: To summarize the current changes (just added it to the changelog too): http://paste.openstack.org/show/d81SHEeesrBnKJoPsFpx/16:55
bluesabrefor the xfce, xubuntu, csd comments... xfce will not always look like xfce does now17:09
bluesabreat some point, we make design decisions folks don't agree on, but are better in the long run (http://xwinman.org/screenshots/xfce-default.jpg)17:09
drcwoah!  flashback :)17:10
* bluesabre used CDE as recently as 201417:11
bluesabreold old systems at work :D17:11
* drc blames Steve Jobs (but not the Great and Powerful Wo) :)17:12
bluesabrebut yeah, if we try to lock in to a certain design, xubuntu will surely fall behind in a short amount of time.  Instead we should focus on what works best and what our team, developers, and users are looking for, and not be afraid of change.  :)17:13
bluesabregotta run, bbl17:13
bartHi there :)18:18
=== bart is now known as Guest30778
Guest30778I tried installing 15.10 today, but I didn't get the change because of an internal error.18:19
Guest30778A problem with ubiquity...? Is this a known problem?18:20
Guest307782.5 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo / 4 GB 667 MHz DDR2 SDRAM / NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT 512 MB18:22
Guest30778How do I report this as a bug?18:29
flocculantGuest30778: this isn't a support channel exactly - #xubuntu is 18:29
flocculantthat said - you can report it by pressing continue18:29
flocculantas far as whether it's a known issue - I don't know about that - not seen it18:29
Guest30778I see! Thank you.18:30
flocculantI would suggest checking the download, then reburn it to whatever you used 18:30
krytarikGuest30778: Other than that, looks like LP bug 1495017, but it was supposedly fixed before release.18:32
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1495017 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Wily) "ubiquity crashed with permission error on NetworkManager GetDevices() call" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/149501718:32
flocculantyea - that got fixed - I didn't see it after that18:33
Guest30778Here is a traceback: http://imgur.com/wHI1Yut18:34
Guest30778Checking md5 of download18:34
flocculantGuest30778: even if we work out what's wrong - we can't fix it 18:35
Guest30778Yeah, it matches. Also tried re-burning.18:35
Guest30778Filed a bug report 151392918:49
ochosibluesabre: wow, cde? do you work in a computer archive? :D19:20
flocculantevening ochosi 19:35
ochosievening flocculant 21:05
ochosisorry, was afk again21:05
knomeslickyma1ter, all the best for your dad21:54

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