[01:07] hello [01:10] hello [01:10] will GNOME Software app be default in Xubuntu 16.04? [01:11] no idea [01:11] depends how well it seems to work, how integrated it will be, how many known bugs there are... [01:12] Not unlikely though. [01:12] no, but at this point, there is no best guess whether it will be default or not [01:13] I hope Xubuntu dev team will consider Synaptic to be default GUI software management [01:13] You mean just because it's not even in the repo means we can't have a solid answer, knome? :'( [01:13] :P [01:13] synaptic isn't exactly the most user-friendliest GUI, that's why USC has been picked over it before [01:14] or at least it's not the perfect GUI for the regular user [01:14] Well, and the other did paid apps from Canonical and the like, iirc. [01:15] don't know how many xubuntu users used that feature, but that too [01:15] advanced users tend to want to use apt-get anyway [01:16] but i guess it can be said that synaptic will be at least "considered" [01:17] have fun figuring out the subtones and interpretations you can make of that :P [01:17] Spass, did the above absurd discussion answer your question at all? [01:18] you're right, probably availability of paid apps will be a reason why we will see Gnome Software in Xubuntu 16.04 [01:19] I'm just little councerned about all these "newer" gnome apps in Xubuntu, they just don't seem to fit to Xubuntu/Xfce as a whole [01:20] Spass: I'll trow a fit if it drags in too many deps, don't worry. :P [01:20] As it is, not *too* bad. [01:20] http://paste.debian.net/323597/ on Debian "Xubuntu" [01:20] Spass, feel free to suggest reasonable alternatives that fit in better... [01:21] Unit193, also how much can we drop for dropping USC [01:21] and how heavy are the other options [01:21] Synaptic was the only one I could think of too.. [01:21] knome: What other options? [01:21] Unit193, wasn't there a lubuntu software center or something like that? :P [01:22] old news i suppose http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2015/11/the-ubuntu-software-centre-is-being-replace-in-16-04-lts [01:22] knome: I think we're rejecting that too. [01:23] Spass, that covers the ubuntu desktop only [01:24] yes, but that means USC is dead in my opinion [01:25] Yes. [01:25] and there will be no reason to add it to 16.04 in any Ubuntu flavour [01:25] except that it's still what it is, etc... [01:26] and who says nobody picks up maintaining it? [01:26] Is there a CLA attached to it? [01:26] And, I'd bet against it, fwiw. [01:26] no idea [01:26] * knome collects the bets [01:27] note: a 95% commission is taken from the bets [01:27] anybody else? [01:32] moun! [01:33] * drc bets 10 coprolites against...want your commission now? [01:33] bets only in cookies. [01:35] what's the exchange rate (chocolate chip <> Oreos)? [01:35] everything counts as one. [01:35] except anything with coconut [01:35] quiz time, one of these apps don't fit in http://wstaw.org/m/2015/11/06/quiz.png [01:35] they count as zero [01:36] Spass, you can hide CSD [01:38] that will be nice! I did't know that, in that case I must find out how [01:38] thanks [01:38] ask Unit193 and find out [01:38] gtk3-nocsd? [02:18] Spass: Depends on the application, but sometimes all you can do is http://mentors.debian.net/package/gtk3-nocsd [02:21] CSDs are aweful. Seems like GNOME's attempt at being Windows (along with systemd and dbus.) :P [02:31] yes CSDs are really out of place in Xubuntu, it breaks an immersion of Xubuntu being a "fully ready product" [02:33] I manage to use gtk3-nocsd globally (~/.profile) but I'm struggling to make it work with selected apps only [02:33] but I'm on the right track I think, big thanks for the hint [02:37] I'm basing on this HowTo http://www.webupd8.org/2014/08/how-to-disable-gtk3-client-side.html [02:47] I'd go with the package, much higher quality. :P [02:58] well, seems like it won't work with my gtk+ 3.16.7 on 15.10 [02:59] but in my opinion something like gtk3-nocsd should be considered as a main package for the new release of Xubuntu ;) [03:01] No, it's a bit of a hack, I surely wouldn't. [03:04] good hack can easily become a feature, but you're right, in this form is too hardcore to be "main" [03:07] a good and elegant way to getting rid of CSD is a good discussion topic for the new Xubuntu releases, I think [03:26] We can't realistically patch it out of all the applications that use it, thankfully Ubuntu has somewhat in the past, but not sure that'll continue. At least xfwm handles headerbars well now. [05:00] flocculant: thanks [10:28] Spass__ Actually no, we shouldn't consider such a hack for inclusion and as Unit193 correctly inferred, we cannot patch the headerbars out. from what i read in #u-desktop they're still undecided on the subject but i guess slowly leaning towards CSD [10:29] Which is quiiiite the bummer. [10:40] ochosi, wasn't that possible earlier? [10:58] too much gnome3 in xubuntu and that makes me really sad [11:08] us we all should know, gnome3 is an unholy mess ;) [11:08] Morning all [11:30] Spass__: what software do you use that has header bars? [11:30] the only thing i can find is the calculator [11:32] fortunately not too many - catfish, calculator, menulibre, some games... [11:33] but with every release i see more [11:33] you're using 15.10? [11:33] yes [11:33] catfish and menulibre are Xubuntu specific. [11:33] neither of them have headerbars on 15.04 [11:35] galculator is a good replacement for calculator [11:37] yes, i use galculator now, but i dislike that it doesn't show operations (i mean like "6+32-6") [11:38] in 15.10 http://wstaw.org/m/2015/11/06/deco.png [11:42] and more "gnome3 look" apps to come in 16.04 i'm afraid [12:12] Spass__, well you know, complaining isn't going to fix the issue, nor blaming gnome3 for it [12:17] i know, i'm just trying to be open with my concerns as an user, i know i can't fix it, but maybe the issue will be discussed in wider "more powerful" group [12:18] be assured, we've heard your concern [12:18] and this has been discussed even before you expressed your personal concern [12:21] i guess i should explain myself more... [12:21] i'm happy that users get involved - thanks for that [12:22] but i would be more happy if they could bring something new to the discussion too :) [12:22] or propose a solution they would like [12:22] with this issue, gnome3 is like it is, and applications do what they do, and we only have so much things we can do to avoid them [12:23] should we only use applications that doesn't use CSD? [12:23] how long is that possible? [12:23] are the applications that are not using CSD maintained? [12:23] if not, is it sensible to use them? [12:24] if we have N applications that use CSD, does it make a big difference to add one more? [12:24] well.. the only solution i can see for the newer releases, assuming that CSD will be a thing in xubuntu is that you could use XFWM theme imitating that look as default [12:24] i think we should seriously consider galculator, it's well maintained and default in ubuntu mate and lubuntu [12:25] Spass__, we are using greybird which is pretty close [12:25] like "Greybird-accessibility" but without button borders [12:25] ali1234, but that's a solution just for one of the applications... [12:26] there can't be a single solution for all applications [12:26] of course not [12:26] but sure, we can definitely consider galculator [12:27] though if it doesn't show the calculations as Spass__ said, then i would personally still prefer gnome-calculator [12:30] t does have a mode where it shows the calculation actually [12:30] sounds good [12:31] calculator->notation mode->formula entry [12:31] you probably won't like it though, it's a little bit weird [12:32] right... [12:34] catfish and menulibre having headerbars might be a bug [12:35] aha? [12:35] well they're both maintained by xubuntu developers [12:36] so it's not like we'd have to fork them to remove the headerbars [12:38] there's a commit on catfish that says "optional CSD" [12:38] keyword "optional" [12:38] i believe it's a build-time option [12:39] http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~catfish-search/catfish-search/trunk/revision/384#catfish_lib/CatfishSettings.py [12:39] i'm still wondering where the bug is :) [12:39] that might not have made it into 15.10 [12:39] by bug i simply mean it was unintentional/unavoidable, not actually a code typo or something [12:40] not at all [12:40] ok, i made this simple mod http://wstaw.org/m/2015/11/06/3_2.png [12:41] knome: are you saying that the headerbars were a specific design decision for xubuntu? [12:41] if we want uniformity with CSD apps, the only way for now is matching XFWM theme [12:42] ali1234, i'm saying that the CSD for them didn't appear accidentally [12:43] okay, and will they be turned off in 16.04, given that that is an option? [12:43] Spass__, using the huge titlebar without any extra functionality over a smaller one seems silly to me [12:43] that makes window decorations somewhat huge, but it can be slimmer but with that style (slight gradient, line in the bottom, buttons) [12:44] also, is a complete uniformity really needed? [12:44] yes it is silly, but it is one way to go [12:44] there will always be apps that look a bit different [12:45] the less such applications, the better for end user experience with the system IMHO [12:45] i think that's debatable [12:45] everything is [12:45] and that is ok [12:45] if 9/10 apps are uniform, a then ununiform application appears, wouldn't that be weirder? [12:45] ultimately we can't control what apps the user installs [12:46] i don't think the CSD/regular xfwm there are too far apart even now [12:48] anwyay, got to go [12:48] bbl [12:51] well, if "not too far apart" is satisfying for you, then further discussion on my part does not seem to make sense [12:53] http://www.funnymemes.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/close-enough.jpeg [12:54] at the end of the day we can't fix everything [12:55] yes we can! :D [12:56] no we can't [12:56] one day i am going to snap and just write my own desktop from scratch [12:57] ehh... back to my negative-self [14:57] knome, slickyma1ter, Unit193: Heh, just noticed I forgot to 'add' some new/moved files in my modified docs branch :P - http://paste.openstack.org/show/Hg0LAylqKGtgoYCrHkwV/ [16:16] knome, krytarik, flocculant [16:17] I saw your pings re -docs. Haven't answer them because my father underwent a surgery and in the postoperative contracted a bacterial infection [16:17] so things are a bit confused [16:18] I'll try to catch up during this weekend [16:55] knome, slickywork: To summarize the current changes (just added it to the changelog too): http://paste.openstack.org/show/d81SHEeesrBnKJoPsFpx/ [17:09] for the xfce, xubuntu, csd comments... xfce will not always look like xfce does now [17:09] at some point, we make design decisions folks don't agree on, but are better in the long run (http://xwinman.org/screenshots/xfce-default.jpg) [17:10] woah! flashback :) [17:11] * bluesabre used CDE as recently as 2014 [17:11] old old systems at work :D [17:12] * drc blames Steve Jobs (but not the Great and Powerful Wo) :) [17:12] s/Wo/Woz [17:13] but yeah, if we try to lock in to a certain design, xubuntu will surely fall behind in a short amount of time. Instead we should focus on what works best and what our team, developers, and users are looking for, and not be afraid of change. :) [17:13] gotta run, bbl [18:18] Hi there :) === bart is now known as Guest30778 [18:19] I tried installing 15.10 today, but I didn't get the change because of an internal error. [18:20] http://imgur.com/GXRgTGq [18:20] A problem with ubiquity...? Is this a known problem? [18:22] 2.5 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo / 4 GB 667 MHz DDR2 SDRAM / NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT 512 MB [18:29] How do I report this as a bug? [18:29] Guest30778: this isn't a support channel exactly - #xubuntu is [18:29] that said - you can report it by pressing continue [18:29] as far as whether it's a known issue - I don't know about that - not seen it [18:30] I see! Thank you. [18:30] I would suggest checking the download, then reburn it to whatever you used [18:32] Guest30778: Other than that, looks like LP bug 1495017, but it was supposedly fixed before release. [18:32] Launchpad bug 1495017 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Wily) "ubiquity crashed with permission error on NetworkManager GetDevices() call" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1495017 [18:33] yea - that got fixed - I didn't see it after that [18:34] Here is a traceback: http://imgur.com/wHI1Yut [18:34] Checking md5 of download [18:35] Guest30778: even if we work out what's wrong - we can't fix it [18:35] Yeah, it matches. Also tried re-burning. [18:35] OK! [18:49] Filed a bug report 1513929 [18:49] Thanks! [19:20] bluesabre: wow, cde? do you work in a computer archive? :D [19:35] evening ochosi [21:05] evening flocculant [21:05] sorry, was afk again [21:10] :) [21:54] slickyma1ter, all the best for your dad