[01:07] <Spass> hello
[01:10] <knome> hello
[01:10] <Spass> will GNOME Software app be default in Xubuntu 16.04?
[01:11] <knome> no idea
[01:11] <knome> depends how well it seems to work, how integrated it will be, how many known bugs there are...
[01:12] <Unit193> Not unlikely though.
[01:12] <knome> no, but at this point, there is no best guess whether it will be default or not
[01:13] <Spass> I hope Xubuntu dev team will consider Synaptic to be default GUI software management
[01:13] <Unit193> You mean just because it's not even in the repo means we can't have a solid answer, knome? :'(
[01:13] <Unit193> :P
[01:13] <knome> synaptic isn't exactly the most user-friendliest GUI, that's why USC has been picked over it before
[01:14] <knome> or at least it's not the perfect GUI for the regular user
[01:14] <Unit193> Well, and the other did paid apps from Canonical and the like, iirc.
[01:15] <knome> don't know how many xubuntu users used that feature, but that too
[01:15] <knome> advanced users tend to want to use apt-get anyway
[01:16] <knome> but i guess it can be said that synaptic will be at least "considered"
[01:17] <knome> have fun figuring out the subtones and interpretations you can make of that :P
[01:17] <knome> Spass, did the above absurd discussion answer your question at all?
[01:18] <Spass> you're right, probably availability of paid apps will be a reason why we will see Gnome Software in Xubuntu 16.04
[01:19] <Spass> I'm just little councerned about all these "newer" gnome apps in Xubuntu, they just don't seem to fit to Xubuntu/Xfce as a whole
[01:20] <Unit193> Spass: I'll trow a fit if it drags in too many deps, don't worry. :P
[01:20] <Unit193> As it is, not *too* bad.
[01:20] <Unit193> http://paste.debian.net/323597/ on Debian "Xubuntu"
[01:20] <knome> Spass, feel free to suggest reasonable alternatives that fit in better...
[01:21] <knome> Unit193, also how much can we drop for dropping USC
[01:21] <knome> and how heavy are the other options
[01:21] <Unit193> Synaptic was the only one I could think of too..
[01:21] <Unit193> knome: What other options?
[01:21] <knome> Unit193, wasn't there a lubuntu software center or something like that? :P
[01:22] <Spass> old news i suppose http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2015/11/the-ubuntu-software-centre-is-being-replace-in-16-04-lts
[01:22] <Unit193> knome: I think we're rejecting that too.
[01:23] <knome> Spass, that covers the ubuntu desktop only
[01:24] <Spass> yes, but that means USC is dead in my opinion
[01:25] <Unit193> Yes.
[01:25] <Spass> and there will be no reason to add it to 16.04 in any Ubuntu flavour
[01:25] <knome> except that it's still what it is, etc...
[01:26] <knome> and who says nobody picks up maintaining it?
[01:26] <Unit193> Is there a CLA attached to it?
[01:26] <Unit193> And, I'd bet against it, fwiw.
[01:26] <knome> no idea
[01:26]  * knome collects the bets
[01:27] <knome> note: a 95% commission is taken from the bets
[01:27] <knome> anybody else?
[01:32] <Unit193> moun!
[01:33]  * drc bets 10 coprolites against...want your commission now?
[01:33] <knome> bets only in cookies.
[01:35] <drc> what's the exchange rate (chocolate chip <> Oreos)?
[01:35] <knome> everything counts as one.
[01:35] <knome> except anything with coconut
[01:35] <Spass> quiz time, one of these apps don't fit in http://wstaw.org/m/2015/11/06/quiz.png
[01:35] <knome> they count as zero
[01:36] <knome> Spass, you can hide CSD
[01:38] <Spass> that will be nice! I did't know that, in that case I must find out how
[01:38] <Spass> thanks
[01:38] <knome> ask Unit193 and find out
[01:38] <Spass> gtk3-nocsd?
[02:18] <Unit193> Spass: Depends on the application, but sometimes all you can do is http://mentors.debian.net/package/gtk3-nocsd
[02:21] <Unit193> CSDs are aweful.  Seems like GNOME's attempt at being Windows (along with systemd and dbus.) :P
[02:31] <Spass> yes CSDs are really out of place in Xubuntu, it breaks an immersion of Xubuntu being a "fully ready product"
[02:33] <Spass> I manage to use gtk3-nocsd globally (~/.profile) but I'm struggling to make it work with selected apps only
[02:33] <Spass> but I'm on the right track I think, big thanks for the hint
[02:37] <Spass> I'm basing on this HowTo http://www.webupd8.org/2014/08/how-to-disable-gtk3-client-side.html
[02:47] <Unit193> I'd go with the package, much higher quality. :P
[02:58] <Spass> well, seems like it won't work with my gtk+ 3.16.7 on 15.10
[02:59] <Spass> but in my opinion something like gtk3-nocsd should be considered as a main package for the new release of Xubuntu ;)
[03:01] <Unit193> No, it's a bit of a hack, I surely wouldn't.
[03:04] <Spass> good hack can easily become a feature, but you're right, in this form is too hardcore to be "main"
[03:07] <Spass> a good and elegant way to getting rid of CSD is a good discussion topic for the new Xubuntu releases, I think
[03:26] <Unit193> We can't realistically patch it out of all the applications that use it, thankfully Ubuntu has somewhat in the past, but not sure that'll continue.  At least xfwm handles headerbars well now.
[05:00] <micahg> flocculant: thanks
[10:28] <ochosi> Spass__ Actually no, we shouldn't consider such a hack for inclusion and as Unit193 correctly inferred, we cannot patch the headerbars out. from what i read in #u-desktop they're still undecided on the subject but i guess slowly leaning towards CSD
[10:29] <Unit193> Which is quiiiite the bummer.
[10:40] <knome> ochosi, wasn't that possible earlier?
[10:58] <Spass__> too much gnome3 in xubuntu and that makes me really sad
[11:08] <Spass__> us we all should know, gnome3 is an unholy mess ;)
[11:08] <akxwi_dave> Morning all
[11:30] <ali1234> Spass__: what software do you use that has header bars?
[11:30] <ali1234> the only thing i can find is the calculator
[11:32] <Spass__> fortunately not too many - catfish, calculator, menulibre, some games...
[11:33] <Spass__> but with every release i see more
[11:33] <ali1234> you're using 15.10?
[11:33] <Spass__> yes
[11:33] <Unit193> catfish and menulibre are Xubuntu specific.
[11:33] <ali1234> neither of them have headerbars on 15.04
[11:35] <ali1234> galculator is a good replacement for calculator
[11:37] <Spass__> yes, i use galculator now, but i dislike that it doesn't show operations (i mean like "6+32-6")
[11:38] <Spass__> in 15.10 http://wstaw.org/m/2015/11/06/deco.png
[11:42] <Spass__> and more "gnome3 look" apps to come in 16.04 i'm afraid
[12:12] <knome> Spass__, well you know, complaining isn't going to fix the issue, nor blaming gnome3 for it
[12:17] <Spass__> i know, i'm just trying to be open with my concerns as an user, i know i can't fix it, but maybe the issue will be discussed in wider "more powerful" group
[12:18] <knome> be assured, we've heard your concern
[12:18] <knome> and this has been discussed even before you expressed your personal concern
[12:21] <knome> i guess i should explain myself more...
[12:21] <knome> i'm happy that users get involved - thanks for that
[12:22] <knome> but i would be more happy if they could bring something new to the discussion too :)
[12:22] <knome> or propose a solution they would like
[12:22] <knome> with this issue, gnome3 is like it is, and applications do what they do, and we only have so much things we can do to avoid them
[12:23] <knome> should we only use applications that doesn't use CSD?
[12:23] <knome> how long is that possible?
[12:23] <knome> are the applications that are not using CSD maintained?
[12:23] <knome> if not, is it sensible to use them?
[12:24] <knome> if we have N applications that use CSD, does it make a big difference to add one more?
[12:24] <Spass__> well.. the only solution i can see for the newer releases, assuming that CSD will be a thing in xubuntu is that you could use XFWM theme imitating that look as default
[12:24] <ali1234> i think we should seriously consider galculator, it's well maintained and default in ubuntu mate and lubuntu
[12:25] <knome> Spass__, we are using greybird which is pretty close
[12:25] <Spass__> like "Greybird-accessibility" but without button borders
[12:25] <knome> ali1234, but that's a solution just for one of the applications...
[12:26] <ali1234> there can't be a single solution for all applications
[12:26] <knome> of course not
[12:26] <knome> but sure, we can definitely consider galculator
[12:27] <knome> though if it doesn't show the calculations as Spass__ said, then i would personally still prefer gnome-calculator
[12:30] <ali1234> t does have a mode where it shows the calculation actually
[12:30] <knome> sounds good
[12:31] <ali1234> calculator->notation mode->formula entry
[12:31] <ali1234> you probably won't like it though, it's a little bit weird
[12:32] <knome> right...
[12:34] <ali1234> catfish and menulibre having headerbars might be a bug
[12:35] <knome> aha?
[12:35] <ali1234> well they're both maintained by xubuntu developers
[12:36] <ali1234> so it's not like we'd have to fork them to remove the headerbars
[12:38] <ali1234> there's a commit on catfish that says "optional CSD"
[12:38] <ali1234> keyword "optional"
[12:38] <knome> i believe it's a build-time option
[12:39] <ali1234> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~catfish-search/catfish-search/trunk/revision/384#catfish_lib/CatfishSettings.py
[12:39] <knome> i'm still wondering where the bug is :)
[12:39] <ali1234> that might not have made it into 15.10
[12:39] <ali1234> by bug i simply mean it was unintentional/unavoidable, not actually a code typo or something
[12:40] <knome> not at all
[12:40] <Spass__> ok, i made this simple mod http://wstaw.org/m/2015/11/06/3_2.png
[12:41] <ali1234> knome: are you saying that the headerbars were a specific design decision for xubuntu?
[12:41] <Spass__> if we want uniformity with CSD apps, the only way for now is matching XFWM theme
[12:42] <knome> ali1234, i'm saying that the CSD for them didn't appear accidentally
[12:43] <ali1234> okay, and will they be turned off in 16.04, given that that is an option?
[12:43] <knome> Spass__, using the huge titlebar without any extra functionality over a smaller one seems silly to me
[12:43] <Spass__> that makes window decorations somewhat huge, but it can be slimmer but with that style (slight gradient, line in the bottom, buttons)
[12:44] <knome> also, is a complete uniformity really needed?
[12:44] <Spass__> yes it is silly, but it is one way to go
[12:44] <knome> there will always be apps that look a bit different
[12:45] <Spass__> the less such applications, the better for end user experience with the system IMHO
[12:45] <knome> i think that's debatable
[12:45] <Spass__> everything is
[12:45] <Spass__> and that is ok
[12:45] <knome> if 9/10 apps are uniform, a then ununiform application appears, wouldn't that be weirder?
[12:45] <knome> ultimately we can't control what apps the user installs
[12:46] <knome> i don't think the CSD/regular xfwm there are too far apart even now
[12:48] <knome> anwyay, got to go
[12:48] <knome> bbl
[12:51] <Spass__> well, if "not too far apart" is satisfying for you, then further discussion on my part does not seem to make sense
[12:53] <Spass__> http://www.funnymemes.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/close-enough.jpeg
[12:54] <ali1234> at the end of the day we can't fix everything
[12:55] <Spass__> yes we can! :D
[12:56] <flocculant> no we can't 
[12:56] <ali1234> one day i am going to snap and just write my own desktop from scratch
[12:57] <Spass__> ehh... back to my negative-self
[14:57] <krytarik> knome, slickyma1ter, Unit193: Heh, just noticed I forgot to 'add' some new/moved files in my modified docs branch :P - http://paste.openstack.org/show/Hg0LAylqKGtgoYCrHkwV/
[16:16] <slickymasterWork> knome, krytarik, flocculant 
[16:17] <slickymasterWork> I saw your pings re -docs. Haven't answer them because my father underwent a surgery and in the postoperative contracted a bacterial infection
[16:17] <slickymasterWork> so things are a bit confused
[16:18] <slickymasterWork> I'll try to catch up during this weekend
[16:55] <krytarik> knome, slickywork: To summarize the current changes (just added it to the changelog too): http://paste.openstack.org/show/d81SHEeesrBnKJoPsFpx/
[17:09] <bluesabre> for the xfce, xubuntu, csd comments... xfce will not always look like xfce does now
[17:09] <bluesabre> at some point, we make design decisions folks don't agree on, but are better in the long run (http://xwinman.org/screenshots/xfce-default.jpg)
[17:10] <drc> woah!  flashback :)
[17:11]  * bluesabre used CDE as recently as 2014
[17:11] <bluesabre> old old systems at work :D
[17:12]  * drc blames Steve Jobs (but not the Great and Powerful Wo) :)
[17:12] <drc> s/Wo/Woz
[17:13] <bluesabre> but yeah, if we try to lock in to a certain design, xubuntu will surely fall behind in a short amount of time.  Instead we should focus on what works best and what our team, developers, and users are looking for, and not be afraid of change.  :)
[17:13] <bluesabre> gotta run, bbl
[18:18] <bart> Hi there :)
[18:19] <Guest30778> I tried installing 15.10 today, but I didn't get the change because of an internal error.
[18:20] <Guest30778> http://imgur.com/GXRgTGq
[18:20] <Guest30778> A problem with ubiquity...? Is this a known problem?
[18:22] <Guest30778> 2.5 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo / 4 GB 667 MHz DDR2 SDRAM / NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT 512 MB
[18:29] <Guest30778> How do I report this as a bug?
[18:29] <flocculant> Guest30778: this isn't a support channel exactly - #xubuntu is 
[18:29] <flocculant> that said - you can report it by pressing continue
[18:29] <flocculant> as far as whether it's a known issue - I don't know about that - not seen it
[18:30] <Guest30778> I see! Thank you.
[18:30] <flocculant> I would suggest checking the download, then reburn it to whatever you used 
[18:32] <krytarik> Guest30778: Other than that, looks like LP bug 1495017, but it was supposedly fixed before release.
[18:33] <flocculant> yea - that got fixed - I didn't see it after that
[18:34] <Guest30778> Here is a traceback: http://imgur.com/wHI1Yut
[18:34] <Guest30778> Checking md5 of download
[18:35] <flocculant> Guest30778: even if we work out what's wrong - we can't fix it 
[18:35] <Guest30778> Yeah, it matches. Also tried re-burning.
[18:35] <Guest30778> OK!
[18:49] <Guest30778> Filed a bug report 1513929
[18:49] <Guest30778> Thanks!
[19:20] <ochosi> bluesabre: wow, cde? do you work in a computer archive? :D
[19:35] <flocculant> evening ochosi 
[21:05] <ochosi> evening flocculant 
[21:05] <ochosi> sorry, was afk again
[21:10] <flocculant> :)
[21:54] <knome> slickyma1ter, all the best for your dad