OerHeksmy desktop https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6885560/mybackground.png this happening 4 years ago00:02
OerHeksJups, there were 8, but all i have now is the smallest one00:03
daftykinsyou know what they say about picking the runt of the litter! :)00:04
OerHeksspread your 2 hands together, and you'll have the size of the bunch00:04
OerHekspicking the runt of the litter, let me bing it..00:05
OerHeksoh, oke00:05
OerHeksHe was the smallest one, but so lightweight, he could get on top and get the fattest milk00:06
OerHeksHis eyes squint, but that is no problem, except if he runs off..00:07
OerHeksone way to keep him with me :-)00:09
ki7mtdaftykins, While you guys may not agree with what I said, it's function / method is used by many developers to test the very thing(s) you all said were unwise.  The guy was running a short term support release, that in itself is "unwsie" for a production environment.00:26
daftykinski7mt: that wasn't even vaguely the original query, you seem to be having a seriously hard time accepting being told you were wrong00:27
OerHeksTrue, for production i would choose lts over cutting edge .. but he was asking earlier howto upgrade to the latest.00:27
ki7mtI dont have a problem with that at all, but, what I said, in fact, is not wrong. It is a method, all bit, know the risks.00:28
daftykinski7mt: yes but for the second god damn time, you didn't SHARE the risks.00:29
daftykinsand no it was 100% ridiculous that you even brought it up00:29
ki7mtGod doesn't have anything to do with it, so dont take his name in vain please. So your requirment is, if there's a risk in any recommendation, we " those providing a suggestion", should make them agree to a risk statement before hand .. LOL ..00:32
ki7mtthat channel would cease to exist on that basis.00:32
OerHeksIt is not only the person who we talk too, many find solutions in the logs too. or read it with us.00:32
daftykinsthis isn't a place for any daft religious commentary00:33
daftykinski7mt: it's a lot simpler, stop giving bad advice - can we move on now instead of having you get hung up for hours on a single query?00:34
ki7mtThey find them all over the web too, like roll your own kernel, but they don't write "Danger Will Robinson" all of the top of the WIKI page do they.00:34
daftykinsonce again you're not even comparing apples to apples, that is some seriously poor logic00:34
daftykinswe weren't talking about something being obtained from a third party.00:34
ki7mtwhat third party, how did that enter the picture?00:35
daftykinswhen you just mentioned someone rolling their own kernel00:35
daftykinsthat was totally miles away from the persons original query00:35
ki7mtIn response too: "It is not only the person who we talk too, many find solutions in the logs too. or read it with us." I didn't bring it up, your did.00:36
OerHeksi did.00:36
ki7mthis original query was well understood.00:36
daftykinsuse a nick so we know who you're talking to, then00:36
daftykinslook, just drop it will you? and don't advise pinning again when it ruins security00:37
ki7mtI will drop it, but what I wont drop is being told my answer was wrong, when in every bases of fact, what I was., was a viable solution. It's just your option, which your entitled too, that it should not be done that way, does not make the solution wrong.00:38
ki7mts/ wat it was/g00:39
OerHekski7mt, big issue is: ubuntu switches to SystemD .. and skipping a release, well, i am not sure it is going to be oke00:39
OerHeksit might be, but i am not going to test that.00:40
ki7mtOerHeks, Yes, that may very well cause a problem.00:41
daftykinsit was not viable whatsoever.00:41
ki7mtOption again.00:41
ki7mtprove it.00:41
Bashing-omOerHeks: the_count Be aware he is a 15 year old, but pretty sharp .00:42
daftykinsit doesn't need proving, you told someone to enact a process that meant they'd never get newer kernel versions (minor versions, the two digits following the major version)00:42
daftykinski7mt: i genuinely do not understand what major malfunction is preventing you from seeing blatant fact.00:42
ki7mt"Never" thats wrong completely wrong.00:42
ki7mtAll one has to do is remove the lock.00:43
OerHeksBashing-om, wish i was 15 .. any show will give me a job :-D00:43
daftykinsoh my word every successive comment from you is more retarded than the last00:43
daftykinsi'm done with this topic. stop spewing nonsense.00:44
ki7mtNow my comments are retarded, because but your statement was completely wrong.00:44
daftykinswell if you're going to be really childish and take apart sentences word for word, then yeah - we're done.00:46
ki7mtSo, I'm wrong because I dont wave a rad flag before a suggestion, I'm wrong because it's a risk, Im wrong becasue you dont like the method, and in case your wrong about package holding.00:46
daftykinsstating that a condition changes when you undo the action, is basic logic00:46
daftykinsi've already made my point, you shouldn't still be struggling at this00:47
daftykinsnow try and detach your emotions from computing tasks, they don't belong here00:47
ki7mtOh, fear not, Im not struggling wiht this at all.00:47
ki7mtnow your saying I'm being guided by emotions?00:48
daftykinsyou're ignored now. go spew nonsense somewhere else00:48
ki7mtgood thank you.\00:49
Ben64you were wrong because you're wrong00:52
ki7mtThis is too funny.00:52
Ben64your suggestion amounted to "disable security updates"00:53
Ben64for absolutely no reason00:53
ki7mtwhoops, not for no reason.00:53
Ben64yes for no reason00:53
ki7mtthat' doesn't make it wrong.00:53
Ben64it sure does00:53
ki7mtholding any packages doe that.00:53
Ben64Nov 18 2015 15:41:42 <ki7mt>n8s, If you have a kernel you like, putting a hold on the package is one way to ensure it sticky00:53
Ben64very dumb00:54
ki7mtYes, exactly, "one way"00:54
Ben64the dumbest way00:54
Ben64because normal updates don't change the kernel00:54
Ben64so its pointless, and not secure and stupid00:54
ki7mtMore options ==> Stupid00:54
ki7mtAnd it's not pointless.00:54
Ben64it absolutely is pointless00:54
ki7mtSo whats is the point of holding a package then?00:55
Ben64don't get security updates for your kernel because...?00:55
ki7mtAgain, what is the point of holding a package?00:55
Ben64so your argument is basically "why do knives have sharp edges unless they're made to stab people"00:56
ki7mtNo, I'd like you to answer the question, what is the point or purpose of holding a package?00:56
Ben64not for holding kernels because you "like it"00:57
ki7mtOh, so, the hold function does not work for kernel packages, everything but?00:57
Ben64again, the knife argument00:57
Ben64obviously knives can be used to stab people, that means you must do it!00:58
ki7mtIt's there to use as one sees fit, if you don't like it, don't use it, that doesn't make it wrong to use.00:58
Ben64using it improperly is wrong00:59
* daftykins chuckles00:59
OerHeksbleeeh .. IT IS WRONG! and against the ubuntu policy, we need to keep a line here00:59
ki7mtlol . yeah that's funny, where doe it say not to use this on certain files.00:59
Ben64just like stabbing someone is wrong00:59
Ben64its a tool, just like a knife00:59
Ben64suggesting that someone hold a kernel package is a terrible idea, even more terrible when you don't explain the ramifications of doing so01:00
ki7mtI dont care about knives dude, we're talkign about the usage of or not, the package hold function. You guys are telling me tis' wrong to use on a kernel, but the same argument could eb said oof any package could it not?01:01
ki7mtThank You !01:01
Ben64you shouldn't hold any packages01:01
ki7mtsit is wsie to use, weight the risks oneself.01:01
ki7mtis it wise ..01:01
Ben64except you didn't explain anything01:01
Ben64you made the stupid suggestion that someone hold a kernel if "they like it"01:01
ki7mtYou shoudl Hold Packages, "IF" you dont know what your doing with the hold.01:02
Ben64theres no point, you have no point01:02
ki7mtSorry Should Not hold01:02
Ben64which you didn't explain at all01:02
daftykinsbatshit insane factor rising...01:02
ki7mtAnd I agreed to as much.01:02
Ben64yet you still argue that you have a damn point01:02
Ben64you've yet to explain more than "liking" a package the reason to hold it01:02
ki7mtI have a "valid" point, and I said, weigh the risks, but, it doesn't make the method "wrong"01:03
Ben64it does make the method wrong01:03
Ben64what problem does it solve, what problems does it create?01:03
Ben64solves nothing, creates security issues01:03
Ben64therefore, it's not a solution, its a problem01:03
ki7mtAnd Ive asked how that is, and all I get back ins "security this, security that"01:03
OerHeksWoW runs in Syria, Assasins Creed in Palestina and FallOut in Fukushima .. what gameconsoleshould i ask for xmas?01:03
Ben64OerHeks: ps401:04
daftykinski7mt: because security matters, surprise surprise.01:04
ki7mtYour kidding right? So does using a short term release of software, does that mean you shouldn't use it.01:05
Ben64what do you mean by "short term release of software"01:05
ki7mtIn this context, you'd have to say yes, because it's a security risk01:05
ki7mtshort term == not longer being updated01:06
ki7mtno longer01:06
daftykinsonce again you keep moving the topic about to take the focus off the mistake you made01:06
ki7mtWhatever bug were there, are there01:06
Ben64non sequitur01:06
ki7mtIm not moving the topic at all,01:06
Ben64you completely did01:06
Ben64pinning a package is ok because sometimes people run unsupported releases?01:06
ki7mtyou said, don't do it because of security risks01:07
Ben64complete non sequitur01:07
ki7mtYour putting, and I dont disagree here, security above all else. But, there are times when a risk is needed to deal with a problem.01:08
daftykinsi think you need to learn to let this one go.01:09
Ben64and still you haven't ever explained this magical problem that requires you to pin a kernel01:09
ki7mthowever, the person creating the risk needs to understand that risk, "which did not fully disclose"  on that count, guilty as charged.01:09
ki7mtlol .. daftykins you need to stop telling people what to do, because your really bad at it.01:11
ki7mtBen64, I don't have a "magical" problem that needs solving.01:11
daftykinski7mt: at least i back down when i'm told my advice is wrong - and don't blather on about the same thing for an hour after it happens.01:11
Ben64ki7mt: so don't suggest a stupid answer to your non-existent problem01:12
ki7mtBen64, I didn't, he wanted to stay on a specific kernel version, what was it.01:13
ki7mtthat was it01:13
Ben64which already happens in ubuntu without doing anything silly01:13
ki7mtI merely said pin it, and the walls of hell opened up, OMG, you cant pin a kernal blah blah blah .. LMAO01:13
Ben64yeah, because you're wrong01:14
Ben64learn from it01:14
ki7mtI woiiuld if you tell me how it was wrong,01:14
Ben64i just did01:14
ki7mtYou all said, its wrong becasue of security ? is that right?01:14
Ben64Nov 18 2015 17:13:46 <Ben64>which already happens in ubuntu without doing anything silly01:15
Ben64kernel versions don't change on a release of ubuntu01:15
daftykinski7mt: 3 of us have said over and over it was wrong, grow up and accept it.01:15
ki7mtdaftykins, I thought you ignored me, please do that.01:15
ki7mtBen64, If the package name, number whatever, changes, is that not a version change ?01:16
ki7mtkernel series, yes, I agree, 3.18, 3.19 whatever that would eb the series.01:16
Ben64same version01:16
daftykinsi think there's a screw loose or medication situation here :(01:16
ki7mtIt's the same versies ( your calling version), the package is different is it not?01:17
ki7mtsame series01:17
Ben643.13.0 is the kernel01:17
* daftykins chuckles01:17
ki7mtyes, no what is 3.13.101:17
ki7mtA different PACKAGE !!!!!!!!!!101:17
ki7mtget it01:18
Ben64correct, but i didn't say 3.13.1 ever01:18
ki7mtthat was an example.01:18
Ben64because the version doesn't change01:18
Ben64yeah a bad example01:18
ki7mtAgreed, the "version" does nto, but the package does.01:18
Ben64so you agree the version doesn't change01:18
ki7mtand when I freeze that "Package" thats it, that what I want, and it should stay there.01:19
Ben64why do you want that01:19
ki7mtyes, the version, as in 3.18 series kernel does not, as the patches, unless Im mistaked are applied to that Kernel Version or series.01:20
Ben64Nov 18 2015 17:13:06 <ki7mt>Ben64, I didn't, he wanted to stay on a specific kernel version, what was it.01:20
Ben64so again, the version doesn't change01:20
Ben64want to stay on the same version01:20
Ben64solution = update normally01:20
ki7mtfrom my perspective, anythign that changes in the "Package" i is a change, be the series kerenl itself or not.01:21
Ben64well you're wrong again01:21
Ben64and you have no reason for any of this01:21
Ben64i've tried to extract the dumb reasoning out of your head, but it's too damn thick01:21
ki7mtThe reason can be anything, I dont have a specific use case, I just provided an example.01:22
Ben64the reason can't be anything01:23
ki7mtagreed, if we're being pedantic here, anything is not true.01:23
Ben64you can't provide any reason to pin a kernel package01:24
Ben64so there is no reason to suggest it01:24
ki7mtSure I can. Becasue "I Want To" that's a reason; good one, no, but it's a reason.01:24
Ben64no reason to suggest it to anyone else01:24
ki7mtOr, I dont want the package to change at all, for any reason.01:25
Ben64you can be as dumb as you want, don't bring others down with you01:25
ki7mtOh, now Im dumb?01:25
Ben64your actions and reasons are dumb01:26
ki7mtIf he eantes to stay on s specif package, pin it, thats the purpose of the function is it not, It's up the the person "hwy" they want to stay on it, not my responsibility to "extract" his reasoning for doign something.01:26
Ben64don't suggest it anyway01:27
ki7mtYour wrong again. I gave no reason for doing it, other than it's a plausible method, that is not dumb.01:27
Ben64it is very dumb01:28
ki7mtit's a simple means to an end, period.01:28
Ben64it's not01:28
ki7mtThat's an opinion.01:28
ki7mtdoes pinning the package not work?01:28
ki7mtdoes it not prevent it from being upgraded ?01:28
Ben64whats the reason01:29
ki7mtI dont care about the reason, we're taking about the action.01:29
Ben64the kernel version does not change in any version of ubuntu for a good reason01:29
Ben64theres absolutely no reason to ever pin it01:29
ki7mtdoes it not work == Yes It Does, therefore, a means to an end == True.01:29
ki7mtYou say there's no reason, that's an opinion.01:29
Ben64its a fact01:29
ki7mtand it's yours, your entitled to it.01:30
Ben64the burden of proof is on you01:30
Ben64and you can't provide anything other than "i want to"01:30
Ben64which is stupid01:30
ki7mtWrong again, I dont have a reason for doing it, Im merely saying, that is works.01:30
ki7mtStupid == Another opinion.01:30
Ben64nobody ever argued that it didn't work01:30
ki7mtand its yuors.01:30
Ben64the point is it is stupid01:31
ki7mtYes, but everyone sure screamed bloddy murder about security .. well news flash, if you freeze a package, you take that risk.01:31
Ben64for no reason01:31
Ben64= stupid01:32
ki7mtAgain, Your opinion.01:32
Ben64you have no reason, you've provided no reason, there is no reason01:32
ki7mtOther, may or may not agree01:32
ki7mtDude, what part of this dont you understand, "I Dont Have A Need To Pin A Package" .. I merely stated that would freeze the stupid kernel package.01:33
Ben64theres no reason to do so, and no reason to suggest someone do that01:33
ki7mtAnd you just agreed that it would/01:33
ki7mtNo reason == Your Opinion agian.01:33
daftykinsthis looks like a bad nickname o001:34
daftykinsor just silly :D01:34
Ben64i've asked many times why that would be valid solution and you couldn't provide anything01:34
ki7mtYou see no reason, that does mot me the rest of the world may not have one.01:34
Ben64so there is no reason01:34
ki7mtdoes not mean01:34
Ben64it certainly didn't solve the person's problem in #ubuntu01:34
Ben64don't suggest it01:34
ki7mtThat may be a better criticism, while it was an option, it may not have solved his problem or need.01:35
Ben64go pin all the packages you want, just don't tell others to01:35
Ben64its not an option01:35
Ben64it only causes problems01:35
ki7mtDont tell me what to do, you dont own me.01:35
Ben64a support channel is for support, you did the opposite of that01:36
Ben64i'll do whatever i want01:36
ki7mtYOu can try.01:36
Ben64i'll succeed01:36
ki7mtI've not tolkd you what to do, not called you names, have I?01:36
daftykinsyou should, by your own morals, want to adopt sense and not mislead users if you're ever going to field questions again01:36
Ben64i haven't called you names either, just called your ideas names01:36
Ben64which by all accounts, are stupid ideas01:37
ki7mtBen64, I don't think So, I've done "Nothing" against the rules.01:37
ubot5As our !guidelines say, "When helping, be helpful". If you're not familiar with the issue at hand, let someone else handle it instead of making !offtopic comments or jokes.01:37
Ben64you weren't helpful01:37
ki7mtAnd you can prove I intentionally mislead this person or tried to do somethind "Bad" here? The only bad being done here, is the way you've all spoken  in general, to me personally.01:38
Ben64the goal was to have you see that it was bad advice01:39
ki7mtANd you can prove my intention, was not to be helpful ?01:39
Ben64which you seem to refuse to accept01:39
ki7mtThat's just wrong, did you look at the conversation he and I had just priror to you all jumping down my throoat?01:39
ki7mtOf course not01:40
Ben64i did01:40
ki7mtANd I was not trying to be helpful there?01:40
ki7mtand that was bad advise to recommend LTS over a short term support version for "production" ?01:40
Ben64we only took issue with you saying to hold a kernel package01:40
ki7mtOh, Im well aware of what you all took issue with.01:41
ki7mtWell let me tell you something ...01:41
Ben64i don't know why you're bringing other stuff up then01:41
ki7mtI've called named, belittled, defaced, just a name a few adjectives, and it's all being logged.01:41
daftykinsit's definitely just being taken way too personally this01:43
ki7mtIm pissed off at the matter in which you all treated me in this situation, when "In Fact" what I stated was true and would stop that kernel from being updated. Best choice, no, I didn't say it was.01:43
Ben64again, there is no reason to prevent kernel updates01:43
daftykinspretty sad really01:43
ki7mtyeah, you are pretty sad daftykins01:43
ki7mtBen64, You say there's no reason.01:44
daftykinsno, i've done nothing but honourable things :) you're the one crying over being told you were wrong01:44
ki7mtI may say there's no reason, but it's a "Fact" we dont speak foreveryone, we're not god m8, newsflash.01:44
Ben64ki7mt: give a reason then? a problem that would be solved by cutting off kernel updates?01:44
ki7mtBen64, Im not going down your rabbit hole again, what said was true, and factual, certainly no misleading, and was intended to be helpful. You all got nasty with me, and that pissed me off.01:46
ki7mtdaftykins, See, I'm not crying about anything, but you may be beofore it all over.01:46
Ben64I didn't get nasty at any point. What you said was incorrect, ignored the effects of that action. It may have been intended to be helpful but it wasn't helpful at all. Please learn from this01:47
daftykinss/nasty/correcting bad advice/01:47
daftykinski7mt: oh with laughter as you carry on? you may well be right there :)01:47
ki7mtdaftykins, No, that's not the issue at all, it's your attitude, to others, I can't do anything about, but when directed toward me, I can, and certainly will. Do bare than in mind.01:48
Ben64you need to stop taking stuff so personally01:49
Ben64daftykins and I have had our differences, but I'm not holding a grudge, I hope daftykins isn't either01:49
ki7mtThere you go again, telling me what I need to do, stop, you've not Idea what I need or do not need.01:49
ki7mtIf I am wrong, so bit, I've admitted as much in the channel many time.01:50
daftykinsBen64: nah, i respect your advice giving - i've definitely been an ass to you at times, in fact i've never apologised for that!01:50
ki7mtBut I've never attacked anyone in the channel, or elswhere in IRC for that matter.01:50
daftykinswe're always going to point out those giving bad advice, because the #1 thing is doing right by the user, so you're just going to need to deal with that01:51
Ben64any suggestion that compromises security is definitely going to get a negative response01:52
ki7mtBen64, I supposed it's all a matter of perspective, and in this case, it's my perspective, you've no leverage there, and to me, there are many comments that were / are uncalled for, and just plain indescent.01:52
ki7mtBen64, Because that's important to "YOU" .. dont put your prejudice on others.01:53
Ben64don't tell me what to do!01:53
ki7mtHow do you like it?01:54
Ben64i was joking, i don't care what someone says to me01:54
ki7mtIm not01:54
ki7mtand I do care what others say to me.01:54
Ben64but really, a support channel is about support. give bad support, you better be able to deal with the backlash01:54
Ben64the easy way is to not give bad support01:54
ki7mtHow old are you oif I may ask?01:54
Ben64doesn't matter01:54
ki7mtwhoos, old01:55
ki7mtSure it does01:55
ki7mtOk, different tac, what was the first Kernel version you ever used.01:55
Ben64not sure how thats relevant01:56
ki7mtSure it is, your telling me, that I need tolearn how to deal with support and it's pro / cons yes?01:56
Ben64I'm saying don't give bad support. what kernel version I started with doesn't matter for that01:57
ki7mtYour picking up on the the message here, it's not what you say, it's how you say it!01:58
ki7mtLOL Your Not Picking up01:59
Ben64you didn't pick up that what you said was bad advice02:00
ki7mtIf you ahve a better idea, better method, state the method, and put it to your self, as is, it's what you'd do, as smashing other people, be them right or wrong, is bad customer service in anyones book.02:00
Ben64the "customers" would be the people wanting help in #ubuntu02:00
ki7mtOne know this if they they knew anything about real support at all.02:00
Ben64if your analogy is expanded, you and I would be coworkers, and I was informing you of your bad customer service02:01
ki7mtIm well aware of who the "Customers " are.02:01
ki7mtBen64, If you want to look at it that way, sure. Bust me for being wrong, but dont deface the service by doing in public.02:01
Ben64its a public channel you were told that that isn't good advice, and you refused to accept it02:02
ki7mtThat yields nothing positive at all, for anyone.02:02
ki7mtYour still not getting it .. it's not what I was told, it's how, good god.02:03
Ben64you kept pushing it further02:04
ki7mtNow the next time, if there is a next time, I go in the channel to help, and Im looked upon as a idiot thanks to you all, and the fact of the matter is, my answer "Was No tWrong" it would do exactly what I said it would it just did not meet the approval of others, for "Their Own Reason"02:05
Ben64see, you still won't accept that you were wrong02:05
Ben64just learn from this already02:05
ki7mtBen64, This is going allot further, it's just the beginning, I can assure you.02:05
Ben64is that some kind of threat02:05
ki7mtBen64, I wont accept that I was wrong, because the asnwer I gave would do exactly what I said it would it would "Pin The Kernel".02:08
Ben64that isn't what you said though02:08
Ben64and it wasn't a solution to the problem02:08
Ben64so it was and still is wrong02:08
ki7mtand are you saying that it would not ping the kernel package?02:08
Ben64thats not what you said it would do02:08
ki7mtIt may not have been a solution to the problem. I merely said, go look look up the transcript, one way to do x,y,z is to hold the package.02:09
Ben64you were suggesting that if someone likes a kernel, that they should hold it. which doesn't make sense since the kernel version doesn't change02:10
ki7mtAnd are you saying that that holding the package would not affectly freeze the kernel as is?02:10
ki7mtBen64, That's another rabbit hole, not going down those, .. go look up what I said.02:11
Ben64i did, and you're still wrong02:11
ki7mtHow so.02:11
Ben64you can't retcon when i have channel logs02:11
ki7mtretcon ?02:11
Ben64verb verb: retcon; 3rd person present: retcons; past tense: retconned; past participle: retconned; gerund or present participle: retconning; verb: ret-con; 3rd person present: ret-cons; past tense: ret-conned; past participle: ret-conned; gerund or present participle: ret-conning    1.    revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previousl02:11
Ben64y described events.02:11
ki7mtI can go get the exact satement if you like, I have them all.02:12
ki7mtI log every thing that goes on is ever channel I join.02:12
Ben64me too02:12
ki7mtThat's a wise thing to do.02:13
ki7mtSo, is what I said, not factual, in regards to pinning the package.02:13
ki7mtI'll rephrase, would it not affectedly freeze that kernel by placing a package hold on it.02:14
Ben64you keep changing the argument02:14
ki7mtNo, your saying I am wrong. Im saying, it will do what I said, but you wont tell me why what I said wont do what I stated in the channel.02:15
Ben64in #ubuntu you were saying it like it was a solution to a problem. it isn't.02:16
ki7mtYou all have said, I'm wrong, I'm stupid, it's dumb, it's a security risk, and about ten other things, but what you've not said, will it not hold the package.02:16
Ben64here you're trying to argue that holding a package holds a package02:16
ki7mtthat's what I said in the channel, Yes02:16
Ben64i have in fact said that the tool does function02:17
Ben64which wasn't the original argument at all02:17
Ben64the whole issue was that doing so removes security updates from the kernel, which is bad02:17
ki7mtAnd you all jumped all over me telling me why "I Should Not Do That", my argument allon has been, it should pin the kernel, but you tell me why it wont do that.02:18
Ben64nobody ever said holding a package wouldn't work02:18
Ben64its just a really bad idea to do so02:18
ki7mtDude, I Understnd the Risks, and Affect, but ANSWER the Questino !! wil it not do what I said?02:19
Ben64please read above02:19
ki7mtA simple Yes or No would Suffice.02:19
ki7mtYour telling me Im wrong, and that's what I said, it would pin the package, so who is wrong.02:20
Ben64that isn't what you said02:20
ki7mtSo ither pinnign doesn't work, or your statment is inaccurate.02:20
Ben64that's what you're now trying to argue in this channel02:20
ki7mtIt what I said.02:20
ki7mtIt is what I said.02:20
Ben64since you log everything, please post where anyone said that pinning wouldn't pin02:21
ki7mtWhat I said exactly:  n8s, If you have a kernel you like, putting a hold on the package is one way to ensure it sticky02:21
ki7mtNow, argue that.02:21
Ben64terrible advice, and pointless02:22
ki7mtNow you argue the work "Sticky"02:22
Ben64same as before02:22
ki7mtThose are opinions, again !!!02:22
ki7mtwould it not Workk !!!!!!!!!02:22
ki7mtAnswer = =Yes, it would.02:23
ki7mtWhether you think it's good advise or not, is the issue we're discussing. The question si, Would It Work. Yes it would I think. Now is it the best advise, that's another matter.02:24
Ben64its bad advice and doesn't belong on #ubuntu02:24
Ben64and it's irrelevant because once again, the kernel versions DO NOT CHANGE02:24
ki7mtThat's an opinion, why wont you answer the question.02:24
Ben64what's the question now? you keep changing it02:25
ki7mtWould putting a hold on the package as suggested not freeze the kernel package as is?02:26
Ben64nobody ever argued against that02:26
ki7mtYou said I was wrong did you not?02:27
Ben64it doesn't change the fact that it's bad advice, has no point, solves no problems, and actually creates a host of issues02:27
ki7mtNow we're back to that again, circle the wagons again.02:28
Ben64because thats the point that actually matters02:28
ki7mtSays you.02:28
Ben64and you still refuse to accept02:29
ki7mtI never said I didn't agree that is' not a security risk, did ?02:29
ki7mtI never said, there's maybe other methods did ?02:29
Ben64then why suggest it at all02:29
Ben64it doesn't fix anything!02:29
Ben64just accept it already02:29
ki7mtI never said anything other than, it's "One Way To Do Something"02:29
Ben64its not an option02:30
ki7mtIt is, very much so an opinion.02:30
Ben64it isn't02:31
ki7mtprove it.02:31
Ben64it solves a problem that doesn't exist by creating a lot more problems02:31
ki7mtA host of other issues, how open ended is that .. LOL .. solves no Problemn, sure it does, freezes the kernel, bad advise, it was a suggestion, not the ultimate solution, it certain has a point.02:32
Ben64there is no point02:32
Ben64the only reason you've given is "i want to"02:32
Ben64which is not a valid reason to cut off security updates, much less tell someone in a support channel to do so02:33
ki7mtNot, I even prefaced th sentence, in English no less.02:33
Ben64you didn't02:33
Ben64Nov 18 2015 15:41:42 <ki7mt>n8s, If you have a kernel you like, putting a hold on the package is one way to ensure it sticky02:34
ki7mtDo i really need to repaste the sentence again, so we can go over it word for word?02:34
Ben641st off, not english02:34
Ben642nd, the kernel version doesn't change under normal updates anyway02:34
ki7mtIt's not what is it?02:34
Ben64its still bad advice, shouldn't be given in #ubuntu02:35
ki7mtThe Kernel Package most certainly does change, often.02:35
ki7mtThat's an Option again.02:35
Ben64the package does sure, not the version02:35
ki7mtdude, you can't help yourself can you.02:35
Ben64you can't accept that you're wrong02:35
ki7mtFinally, a straight answer. ONly took 2 hours.02:35
ki7mtIm not wrong, you are,02:35
Ben64you can go ahead and be wrong, don't do so in #ubuntu02:36
ki7mtFreezing that package will prevent it form changin, or should, thus making it a "sticky bit"  :-)02:36
ki7mtStop telling me what to do.02:37
Ben64i can tell you whatever i like02:37
ki7mtAnd if you can prove I intentionally tried to do soething bad or not try to be helpful with that advice, I'll never go in there agian.02:37
Ben64you're missing the point again02:37
Ben64nobody is trying to tell you you're a bad person or trying to mislead people02:38
Ben64i'm trying to educate you02:38
Ben64what you suggested is a bad idea, and i'm trying to show you why but you keep trying to bring the argument to weird places02:38
Ben64learn from your mistakes, don't double down02:38
ki7mtYour hung up on what you think is god like, show me where it's written it's a bad idea to hold a package, any package.02:39
Ben64no security updates = bad idea02:39
ki7mtShow ME!!!!02:39
ki7mtwhere it's written.02:40
ki7mtAnd then show me where it should not be suggested to others.02:40
Ben64right here -> no security updates = bad idea02:40
ki7mtOh, there's that god like complex again, anywone else write it, or did you come up with that yourself?02:41
Ben64it's common sense02:41
ki7mtso your argument is, dont ever hold a package, as it's a security risk?02:41
ki7mtthen we can tell the MOTU guys, delete that package, we dont needed, its a secutiry risk.02:42
Ben64delete what package02:42
ki7mtYou dont even know what package provides the function LMAO02:42
Ben64i'm asking you, don't assume02:43
ki7mtIt's s security isk, so flash, java, python, perl, bash, and god knows home many other hundreds of packages available in the repository, may as well get rid of them too.02:44
Ben64you're not making sense02:45
ki7mtMy typing is bad sorry. You said, dont put a hold on packages as it's a security risk.02:46
Ben64it's been about 3 hours of you rambling around trying to make yourself feel correct, i'm done now. Please read the above again when you're in a mood to actually learn something. Until then, don't make bad suggestions in #ubuntu02:46
ki7mtI say, well then, my as well get rid of hundreds of packages, if not thousands, as they are all security risks.02:46
ki7mtOpenSSH and Bash exploits come to mind, should we remove those packages.02:47
Ben64that's why they get security updates.02:48
ki7mtBen64, I'll make whatever suggestions I feel is appropriate.02:48
Ben64and if they're wrong, get ready to be informed of that02:49
daftykins^ +102:49
ki7mtdaftykins, Is that a threat, or promise?02:50
daftykinsthat's a really stupid question02:50
ki7mtusually, in your case, obviously we need to make an exception.02:51
ki7mtdaftykins, what is stupid about the question?02:51
ki7mtat least this time you attacked the statement, not the person making it, that's progress, however so slight.02:52
daftykinsi do not need to make progress when it comes to aspie trolls such as yourself.02:53
ki7mtNow I am a troll, I'll and hat to the list. And what may I ask, do you men by Troll?02:54
daftykinsi don't have the patience to pander to your pathetic drama any longer, get lost.02:54
ki7mtdaftykins, You called me a Troll, I would like to know what that means.02:55
ki7mtThe Channel Topic says: We follow the CoC at all times here | No ranting here please02:56
ki7mtThat must not apply to everyone here.02:56
ki7mtdaftykins, I dont think this is in the CoC is it ?: <daftykins> i have to admit i kinda pushed that guy a bit further so he'd get himself kicked03:01
ki7mtIf it is, I must be missing a chapter.03:02
OerHeksi like bing more than google, now you know03:50
daftykinsi guess you just "binged it" ;)04:12
OerHeksbing on chrome ..04:13
daftykinsyou made Bashing leave ;)04:15
OerHeksI am so not sorry.04:16
* OerHeks likes bashing-0m04:17
daftykinsintel ivybridge (gen3) doesn't have dual-link DVI, how rude! so it's 1920x1200 max04:31
daftykinsg'night team \o04:36
OerHeksgn daftykins04:37
lotuspsychjegood morning to all05:23
lotuspsychjems goes opensource05:29
lotuspsychjemorning Latrodectus05:47
Latrodectusnight lotuspsychje05:47
lotuspsychjeLatrodectus: excited for your new work?05:48
lotuspsychjeLatrodectus: what will you have to do exactly?05:48
Latrodectusit's tiring, but it's a job05:48
Latrodectuslotuspsychje: i have to do my job, and not fuck it up...06:01
lotuspsychjeOerHeks: still no ota8 :p06:17
OerHeksToday, sunshine06:41
lotuspsychjeits rainy here :p06:42
OerHeksOTA-8 will start phasing in today06:42
OerHekslotuspsychje, lets write an Ubuntu manual together ... it will be a hit: Ubuntu manual - how *not* to do stuff07:19
OerHekswe have plenty of logs now07:19
Ben64you missed all the fun in here earlier08:00
OerHeksoh, we have the logs Ben6408:01
Ben64it belongs in some kind of museum08:02
OerHekships,  Microsoft published the Visual Code Studio sources on the GitHub project hosting website https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode08:02
OerHeksBen64, well, it might be a stupid idea, but i think worth a try, .. and if someone comes with that stupid idea to uncomment security updates, point them to the book ( that i'd like to write with others like you)08:05
OerHeksor as title:   DON'T USE UBUNTU (this way)08:06
OerHekshi TJ-08:12
OerHeksTJ-, he wants to copy his client ssh key to the server, as i understand ?08:18
* OerHeks is a little confused08:19
TJ-Me too at the moment08:19
TJ-if the server changes the IP address then he's going to keep getting a client-side challenge about accepting the server's key fingerprint08:20
OerHeksYes, that i understand, unlikely the server changes ip08:20
TJ-I think maybe he's confused over what the local client does08:21
TJ-You know how I seem to attract all the most complicated issues?08:22
TJ-Took me almsot 24 hours continusouly yesterday to upgrade my HTC M8 from Cyanogenmod 11 to 12.1 (Lollipop) - everything I was supposed to do wouldn't work for some reason or other, and I had to jump through hoops!08:22
TJ-It made me realise how enjoyable the same experience on GNU/Linux actually is!08:23
OerHeksTJ-, i notice that, qualified helpers can stay for a few hours, then they are burned up. it is pretty intensive, irc help.08:25
TJ-Certainly IRC is much harder than real support.08:27
TJ-You've got to out-think the actions of clueless.positively crazy users, without any chance to actual observe what they're doing that might make things worse :)08:28
OerHekscomplete description of actions, or situation, is key.08:30
TJ-One of my companies pioneered remote support many many years ago; When you've done that and can get on and fix a system in a couple of minutes IRC is like going back to the stone-age :)08:33
OerHeksremote support, like teamviewer or phone?08:33
TJ-as in a permanent network connection to the client's network over VPN, and ability to be remotely controlling the problem PC within about 10 seconds of a support call coming in.08:36
TJ-most issues were user-created, and if you can get in quick 95% take no more than 5 minutes to solve, including warning the user as to proper conduct in future.08:37
TJ-We had monitoring systems in-house that'd pre-emptively warn us of emerging issues too, so we could head them off before they caused knock on effects - obvious things like getting close to running out of disk space, or log messages warning of some system problem08:39
OerHeksAh, i see, but then you know the hardware profile, saves a lot of time too.08:39
OerHekshere we don't know the hardware, software version, not even the level of knowledge by the user. and he has to type too.08:40
TJ-right, but when youv'e got thousands of systems being managed in reality there's rarely much history for each individual system, so you've still got to get up-to-speed. The difference is you've got control and quickly do all the essential background research of system/config/logs without a user to mediate between you and the system08:42
TJ-hmmm, looks like norc is getting rather confused and blaming the wrong thing for the problems.08:46
Ben64OerHeks: he did mention wanting to see it in writing that disabling security updates is not a good idea08:49
Ben64so please do write that book08:49
OerHeksi will !08:49
Ben64and yeah, the hardest part of support is figuring out whats going on08:50
TJ-logs logs and more logs :)08:51
Ben64well when a user comes in, "I have a problem"08:52
Ben64and you have to play 20 questions to figure out the issue in the first place08:52
TJ-I recall one time during winter storms we had a call "my Internet isn't working" and our quick-thinking techie asked "Did you get any trees blown down?" ... telegraph lines were felled :)08:52
Ben64I used to live in texas, working in tech support in person08:53
TJ-Ben64: right, that's where the cost is. Everything you do to pre-empt that is money in the bank08:53
Ben64I had to keep track of when thunderstorms were, because all the broken PSUs came in after that08:53
lotuspsychjemorning TJ-09:20
TJ-g'morning :)09:20
lotuspsychjeTJ-: what you think of this: https://insights.ubuntu.com/2015/11/17/magicstick-and-ubuntu-core-redefining-the-pc-on-stick-experience/09:21
lotuspsychjehi there ki7mt :p09:22
TJ-lotuspsychje: a lot of marketing hype there... "tap on it to launch it" ... so the stick magically turns the TV into a touchscreen does it?!09:24
TJ-"Every app is just a few taps away on your TV."09:24
lotuspsychjewell i like the idea of ubuntu on every machine09:24
TJ-I like how they omit the keyboard and pointing device09:25
TJ-If they'd engage in honest advertising I might be more appreciative; as it is I think it's all marketing hoo-har and no substance. I'd like to see someone 'enjoy' the experience shown in that photo... how far away are they from the screen? they must have a telescope to read the text!09:27
lotuspsychjewell smart tv is pretty far away aswell09:28
lotuspsychjeand depends how big the tv is also09:29
TJ-right, and renders a few objects relatively large, and uses something like 140 pixel height fonts09:29
lotuspsychjeon a 60" tv :p09:29
TJ-I have no problems with the 'idea' but all I see there is wishful thinking rather than something that most people would find comfortable in reality.09:30
lotuspsychjea friend of mine has this samsung 60" on his wall watching 1080P blurays09:30
lotuspsychjeTJ-: yeah i understand where you going09:30
lotuspsychjethe real deal instaed of blingbling09:30
TJ-the large screens are great if you're in a large room; I have one that's 10 meters from the sofa and that just about works nicely09:31
lotuspsychjeTJ-: how many "09:31
OerHeksbigger than 25" is too big, i think, even from 10 ft away09:31
lotuspsychjewe have a 40" in about 5meters and were pretty happy with it09:32
lotuspsychjehmm thats the first ive seen this http://trentaos.org/09:33
OerHeksoke, my living room is 4 x 6 .. maybe i should get a bigger house09:33
TJ-60" Samsung09:34
lotuspsychjeTJ-: nice :p09:34
TJ-only really watch BBC News on it :)09:34
lotuspsychjewhat a spoil TJ- :p09:35
TJ-Well, whilst Eddie is away at uni... when he's back it'll be movies I'm sure09:35
lotuspsychjeTJ-: you need a 80gig bluray bdwmv :p09:36
TJ-I don't have the time to use it; only time it'd get used is for house parties09:37
* OerHeks needs a 70" 8k UHDTV with Dolby Surround 22.2 & betamax09:37
TJ-LOL @ "needs"09:37
* lotuspsychje wants a houseparty too09:38
OerHeksit is *just* 1m7709:38
lotuspsychjei recently helped my brother in law with a 4K samsung that had mbt clouding09:38
lotuspsychjeseems like samsung cant repair that09:39
TJ-We'll send you an invite next year. I had been thinking about hosting an Ubuntu get-together next spring09:39
TJ-can't repair it?09:39
lotuspsychjeand i had to play around with brightness/contrast/led backlight09:39
lotuspsychjeTJ-: samsungs service doesnt aknowledges it as a defect09:39
TJ-what's 'mbt' ?09:39
TJ-I could only think Mountain Mike :P09:40
OerHekssounds nice, get-together meet&greet, in Europe or the States?09:40
TJ-s/Mike/Bike/ !09:40
lotuspsychjenot sure, but thats what ive looked up09:40
TJ-OerHeks: Europe, here in the U.K.09:40
OerHeksoh oke, UK is doable, Ferry trip is not that expensive09:40
TJ-lotuspsychje: hmmm... I'd best keep an eye open for that.09:40
OerHekstent, sleeping bag and air mattress, whoppa!09:41
TJ-OerHeks: lol errr no I think we can do better than that!09:41
lotuspsychjeTJ-: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ebpM4yLSg09:42
OerHeksand a lorry for my pc,monitor, keyboard and such ..09:42
lotuspsychjeTJ-: uk, netherlands and belgium not all far away09:43
TJ-lotuspsychje: oh, yeah, I see that. no big deal.09:43
lotuspsychjewe should actually meet one day :p09:44
lotuspsychjeubuntu lanparty lol09:44
TJ-lotuspsychje: that's what I've been thinking... it'd be nice for us to actually meet and get to know each other aside from techy support09:44
OerHeksyeah lotus, i was thinking about that too, for a long time, last big meeting here in nl was with the release of 10.0409:45
OerHekssince then .. ubuntu-nl is a little dead09:45
TJ-I've been looking at buying a farm in Kent which is the bit near the white cliffs of dover so it'd make a good location for hosting a gathering for UK and the continent09:46
lotuspsychjewould be cool09:47
lotuspsychjedover is only a boat away from me09:47
OerHeksand a chance to visit Canonical, London :-D09:47
lotuspsychjelets hope the war victims from calais doesnt come steal the gear :p09:47
TJ-OerHeks: Errr!09:48
TJ-OerHeks: we could organise a Denial of Service party :p09:48
lotuspsychjeTJ-:  doenst liek the big dogs :p09:48
OerHeksDenial-Of-IRC-Helpdesk-Service-Party \o/09:49
lotuspsychjed4rk ubuntu connecting canonical servers09:49
OerHekswe should all login, and be quiet09:49
lotuspsychjeby the way we have an anonymous vs isis on freenode :p #opparis09:50
TJ-You couldn't be quiet if you tried :D09:50
TJ-All we have to do is say "I've got a black screen" and you'd have to shout out "!nomodeset" :D09:50
OerHeksTurn it on, man!09:50
TJ-lotuspsychje: not very anonymous then :D09:50
lotuspsychjeyour computer has been h4cked by !nomodeset09:51
lotuspsychjeTJ-: nope, the official is anonops ssl :p09:51
TJ-I'd love to, as a stunt, recompile the kernel so all the command line parameters need to be entered in reverse: "tesedomtes"09:51
TJ-oops, missed the "on" off that!09:52
OerHeksMolloh, thank you for visiting the Official Ubuntu IRC channel!09:53
TJ-See? it'd be real fun... that and a support house party with a slightly tipsy (drunk) agents :)09:53
* lotuspsychje isnt getting drunk by few british drinks :p09:54
TJ-Let's launch our own distro: utnubu.moc09:54
OerHeksI will have my 1st Guiness ..09:57
lotuspsychjeand i my kilkinny09:57
* OerHeks can dance09:57
TJ-We'll have it on draught for you, we're going to install a bar09:58
* lotuspsychje flows down the heineken down the river09:58
lotuspsychjehow about we just stick with belgian beer :p09:58
* TJ- throws lotuspsychje a paddle09:58
OerHeksI am so sad, no shop sells Koninck beer anymore :-(09:59
TJ-I wonder if anyone's created a network/heat map of the Debian/Ubuntu derivatives, it'd be useful to understand the relationships and the relative popularity of them all09:59
lotuspsychjeTJ-: lol your such an out-of-the-box thinker :p10:00
lotuspsychjeTJ-: did you know thats an actual career/job internet thinker?10:00
TJ-yeah, that's always been my thing :)10:04
OerHeksThere are so many forks .. Mint, Elementary, .. i think i named the important ones10:05
lotuspsychjeTJ-: i saw an interview on the docu of panopticon on the internet thinker10:05
lotuspsychjeabout internet/privacy/big brother10:05
lotuspsychjemint brrrr10:06
OerHeksI have never installed mate, nor windows on this pc.10:06
lotuspsychjeOerHeks: good pc :p10:07
OerHeks.. or Fedora10:07
OerHeks.. or 15.1010:07
OerHeksActually, it is a HP machine, with an win7 license ....10:08
TJ-I might build a test-bed that deploys the derivatives and auto-analyses all the differences caused, so we have actual hard data on what the differences are, rather than just saying "it isn't supported" we could then say *why* it wasn't - i.e. the differences that make it unique10:10
lotuspsychjegood idea10:11
TJ-lotuspsychje: I wish I hadn't seen that article, it's put my heckles up immediately with the sub-headline: "the Ubuntu developers are still analyzing how much access will be granted to users"10:11
TJ-What. The. $)^^)$£! are they thinking!?10:12
lotuspsychjebrb laundry10:12
TJ-"... the new version of the OS will most likely land on the desktop with all the restrictions in place, ..."10:12
TJ-time to abandon ship methinks10:13
OerHekslike the USC, hard coded unity bar, etc?10:16
TJ-the restrictions they're talking about is about running other applications in the background, access to the file-system, and so on10:18
TJ-If anyone had doubts about Canonical not understanding what the F in F/OSS means, this really crystalises it10:18
OerHeksBut that article says it is during the development stage ..10:19
OerHeksMS goes open source, Ubuntu goes closed binairy blob10:20
OerHeksworldis changing rapidly, people10:20
OerHeksmaybe the world is going to swing on its axes ...10:21
TJ-Imagine the support headaches if the user themselves cannot access key parts of the file-system10:22
lotuspsychjewhere there is money, weird things happen10:22
TJ-no, its not money, its 'control'10:22
lotuspsychjethats the same thing10:23
TJ-No, it isn't.10:23
lotuspsychjeif you have money, you can control others10:25
TJ-I've been considering launching a funded alternative for a while now, but with a strong legal community controlled constitution so these kind of 'visionary' centralised creeping changes can't be done.10:25
TJ-Debian++ sort of basis10:28
OerHeksWith all these new changes, MIR/wayland, phone, tv/car/IOT ..10:28
OerHeksi think i'll stick with ubuntu for now :-(10:28
OerHeksSome are disappointed about Kubuntu ..10:29
lotuspsychjeyeah blueskaj told me dodnt like where plasma is going10:29
lotuspsychjeand would like to stick to kde for its features10:30
lotuspsychjeisnt here like a kde fallback like we have gnome fallback?10:30
lotuspsychjecfhowlett: greetings mate10:35
cfhowletthideeho lotuspsychje10:35
TJ-I've long thought the main 'problem' with open-source is that it mainly is driven by developers satisfying their own desire to challenge and try out new things, rather than focusing on a stable overall design and goal and improving that incrementally, so we get all these disruptive changes in the core experience simpy because the key developers have got bored with things10:36
lotuspsychjeTJ-: i totaly agree on that10:36
TJ-that's also its best trait too, so how we 'square the circle' is a difficult problem10:36
lotuspsychjeTJ-: but if your a dev, thats being like an inventor right?10:36
lotuspsychjeTJ-: the community cant choose what a dev invents?10:37
TJ-my main objection is to never rip out existing functionality before you've got equivalent replacements in-place and working10:37
lotuspsychjeyeah i really hope they wont rip out solid trusty stuff for xenial :p10:37
TJ-correct, but having a settled design and roadmap that everyone can understand would go a long way, as would devs actually talking to the end users in the 'long tail'10:38
lotuspsychjethats like a dream scenario :p10:38
lotuspsychjebut in the real field, things go otherwise10:38
TJ-Above all, users should have the choice to keep things as they are for them, even if the underlying system focuses in a different direction10:38
lotuspsychjethats a nice one10:38
lotuspsychjeTJ-: this should be in topic :p10:39
TJ-I have no objection to doing new things - I want that - but I do object to upsetting a users expectations and settled exerperience - when you cause disruption you generate negative feelings and lose support10:39
lotuspsychjeTJ-: wasnt that how linux distro's started, big full cd/dvd with the user choosing packages/flavors10:40
TJ-I'm a dev - I know the itch, but I also like to think I'm professional and respect my users10:40
TJ-right, but those choices didn't keep ripping out major functionality ... at that time they were incrementally adding to the existing experience10:40
TJ-We had it with KDE, then Gnome, Unity and now KDE/plasma,10:41
TJ-that's the user-facing, mass-market part that everyone experiences.10:41
TJ-Server-side the biggest disruptions have been Upstart and now Systemd, but Systemd is doing good things mostly (although breaking my rule of not replacing components until it has equivalent functionality)10:42
lotuspsychjethe user gets drowned in so many distro's10:42
TJ-I was musing the other day of designing a super-distro that can take and use packages from any other distro no matter what packaging system it has. LXC makes that quite practical now10:43
lotuspsychjeTJ-: im real curious where this all will go10:44
TJ-Like - and this is a major issue I think - instead of creating all this new stuff that causes turbulence, how about focusing on building an internal monitoring system that picks up on installation issues and reports/auto-fixes them. The number of issues we see that could be avoided or automatically fixed is massive.10:45
lotuspsychjei like the auto-fix idea10:45
TJ-Yo've only got to look at the logs - especially $HOME/.xsession-errors - to see that the developers are not checking how their programs are misbehaving. The code is, bluntly, crap!10:45
lotuspsychjethere should be more practical devs like you TJ-10:48
lotuspsychjefeet on the ground thinking10:48
TJ-auto-fix would spot 'issue fingerprints' from the logs, and then query a distro server for related/the same issues and download a specific diagnostic shell script. That would do further specific in-depth investigation, report back to the bug/issue tracker, and if available download a 'fixer' script for the specific issue. It'd then tell the user, ask them if they wanted to attempt a fix, and if the10:48
TJ-user approves, would create a snapshot of the system at that point, make the 'fix', ask the user to test it and if OK accept it. If not accepted, roll-back to the snapshot and carry on10:48
lotuspsychjeTJ-: if ubuntu brainstorm would still exist10:48
TJ-All this is stuff I'm - slowly - working on myself, to create a secure (encryption from boot), auto-healing  distro10:48
TJ-Whatever a distro does, the owner/operator of the PC should be, and feel to be, in positive control of their PCs destiny10:49
lotuspsychjeTJ-: not going to be easy, with so many diff hardware?10:50
TJ-lotuspsychje: hardware doesn't matter; in fact, hardware issues are the easiest to diagnose and fix!10:50
TJ-hardest part is user interface issues10:50
lotuspsychjemorning Ben6410:51
TJ-which is where snapshots come in. I use git to manage all changes to my .dotfiles .dotdirs config in $HOME, triggered recently by inotify watches on the key dirs. That way, I can instantly roll-back any and all changes. If that were a standard part of all installs... well... we'd have so many less issues and users could quickly fix their own problems10:51
Ben64it's 2:51am btw10:52
lotuspsychjenight :p10:52
TJ-Ben64: you're late!10:52
Ben64had to cut power to test a GFCI outlet10:52
Ben64turns out, no voltage from hot to neutral10:52
Ben64very strange10:52
TJ-mice eaten through the cable?10:53
Ben64i hope not10:54
Ben64don't really get much of that in this area though10:54
Ben64more likely the previous owners did dumb stuff with the wiring10:54
Ben64i've seen it in many other places in the house10:54
Ben64old 1970s ceiling light above bathtub, one of those light socket -> outlet things, plugged into a fluorescent light box, in a box made of 2x4s10:55
Ben64i'm surprised it didn't start a fire10:56
TJ-well, be glad you haven't got wiring from the early 1900s :)10:57
Ben64yeah thats good10:57
Ben64i've seen those... cloth insulation10:57
Ben64aluminum wiring sucks too10:59
TJ-right. I'm aiming to replace almost everything with 2-core copper 12V DC10:59
TJ-yeah, very little need for 240V AC around now most devices are digital, with the exception of ktichen/laundry11:02
TJ-Hoping to go 100% off-grid with our own generation capacity11:02
Ben64that's awesome11:02
Ben64isn't it hard to power most things with 12v though11:02
Ben64computers, tv, etc11:02
lotuspsychjeive got 16/19v solar panel to branch smartphones/laptops on11:03
TJ-No, most take 12V by default. PCs are 12V DC or less. Many monitors have 12V inputs or can be adapted, as can many LED TVs11:03
TJ-In my study I have a 12V run and a 5V run. I use standard outlets for each (5V is USB A, 12V is barrels)11:06
TJ-power comes from some large lorry/tractor/RV type batteries which are charged from solar, wind, and mains as needed. Just need to up the charging capacity and add a few more batteries so it can cope with a weeks worth of load without a charge11:07
Ben64sounds good11:08
Ben64would you run into problems with cable length though11:10
TJ-lotuspsychje: do you charge batteries from the solar panel, or charge directly?11:10
TJ-Ben64: shorter the better but using large core and keeping the batteries as close to the loads as possible.11:11
TJ-I was investigating dual-use recently - using existing copper water pipes to also carry the power. It actually makes sense11:14
cfhowlettthat sounds WAY too exotic or me to mess with.11:17
lotuspsychjeTJ-: it charges the internal battery + charge directly also11:35
lotuspsychjebbl dinner11:35
BluesKajHi folks14:20
daftykinsstrange class of folks we're getting in these days16:34
lotus|xenialgood evening to all17:29
daftykinshallo o/17:29
daftykinshow's lotus today?17:29
lotus|xenialhey daftykins :p17:29
lotus|xenialdaftykins: fine just updated nexus7 and my bq to OTA817:30
lotus|xenialrocknroll :p17:30
lotus|xenialwhat are you busy with daftykins17:30
daftykinswell i got given the Nexus 5 my friend promised, today17:31
daftykinshttp://www.techblo.gg/stuff/n5.jpeg http://www.techblo.gg/stuff/n5-2.jpg :)17:31
lotus|xenialdaftykins: new or 2nd hand?17:31
daftykinsvery much second hand :> but free!17:31
daftykinsi've got a screen on order but it'll take until December to arrive :(17:31
lotus|xenialdaftykins: you sure the insides are intact?17:32
daftykinsyeah he's a mate i know well so he was using it for ages until the screen cracked enough that the above was how it looked17:32
daftykinsin fact when i pressed on it, i saw a message window display clearly17:32
lotus|xenialdaftykins: will you put touch on it?17:33
daftykinsif it works properly it'll be an option to move up from my Nexus 4 maybe17:33
lotus|xenialah nexus4 should work fine, n5 still got issues i think17:33
daftykinsi don't have any interest really :)17:33
lotus|xenialdaftykins: for smartphone use you mean?17:34
daftykinsin most things ubuntu for desktop and phone, really17:35
lotus|xenialdaftykins: running win for desktop?17:36
daftykinsdepends on the system i'm on17:37
lotus|xenialah kk17:37
daftykinsbut yeah, mostly :)17:37
lotus|xenial!info xpad17:37
ubot5xpad (source: xpad): sticky note application for X. In component universe, is optional. Version 4.5.0-0ubuntu1 (vivid), package size 99 kB, installed size 654 kB17:37
lotus|xenial!info xpad xenial17:38
ubot5xpad (source: xpad): sticky note application for X. In component universe, is optional. Version 4.5.0-0ubuntu1 (xenial), package size 99 kB, installed size 654 kB17:38
lotus|xenialah same17:38
lotus|xenialthis1 doesnt crash on xenial :p17:38
daftykinsor does it!?17:44
lotus|xeniallol no, regular system crash :p17:45
lotus|xenialxenial wobbly windows :p17:49
daftykinssuch a fast IRC client, it's racing from left to right!17:50
daftykinsthat really reminds me of a logo but i can't think which!17:51
lotus|xenialhey BluesKaj17:51
BluesKajhey lotus|xenial17:52
lotus|xenialdaftykins: 'run' from windows? :p17:52
daftykinsyes it is! :D17:52
daftykinsi am impressed, i knew i had seen it somewhere17:53
lotus|xenialBluesKaj: you just missed my xenial wobbly windows shot: http://oi66.tinypic.com/b3whs6.jpg17:53
BluesKajoh wobbly windows...haven't used it in a while, mainly used it to impress my windows buddies ;-)17:55
BluesKajabout all it's meant for IMO17:56
lotus|xenialand then run winblows in a VM and wobble with it17:56
lotus|xenial'wobbly windows'17:56
* lotus|xenial hides for daftykins 17:56
daftykinsand possibly making your PC consume more power, to heat your home in winter17:57
BluesKajI've had enough of windows for a while , with all the tomfolery around the W10 upgrades , what a pita17:57
daftykinsworks for me :) i'll still keep people on 7 though, for business folk18:00
BluesKajdaftykins, yeah , it's foolishness to me , should have stuck with W718:09
BluesKajI don't like the "look"18:10
daftykinsmmm lots of white to begin with, the latest build or "fall update" has already changed a lot of that18:32
daftykinsnooo lotus invites all the riff raff18:35
lotus|xenialthis is the hardest channel to get idlers in18:35
lotus|xenialdont worry18:35
lotus|xenialafter 2hours they leave and you never see them back18:35
lotus|xenialeven the hard volunteers keep forgetting to add to favs18:36
daftykinswe can't even keep eric in ;_;18:36
lotus|xenialyeah lol18:36
lotus|xenialand monkeydust18:36
lotus|xenialand ioria18:36
lotus|xenialand your friend, hackerII wahaha18:36
daftykinsi only just spotted Missl0tus ! hi o/18:37
lotus|xenialMissl0tus: be friendly to him!$18:38
daftykinswow IRC under duress... :)18:39
daftykinsah you have pinched the other computer, excellent18:39
lotus|xenialyep im upstairs on xenial box again18:40
Missl0tusotherwise I have no computer here18:40
daftykinsdo you tend to get by without?18:40
daftykinsi know a lot of folk can't stand to see them once they finish work18:40
lotus|xenialits true, im clamining it most of the time18:40
Missl0tuswe are a nice couple he's upstairs and I am downstairs18:41
daftykins"absence makes the heart grow fonder"18:41
lotus|xenialshhhhh; dont tell all our secrets public18:41
daftykinsperhaps you can email him a recipe to do for dinner, Missl0tus ?18:41
lotus|xenialwe just had french fries with horse eye eggs18:41
daftykinsthough i guess you guys have already done that in your timezone :>18:41
daftykinshorse eye o018:41
lotus|xenialnot sure how its called in english lol18:42
lotus|xenialthe yellow of the egg complete?18:42
daftykinsi just had a couple of bacon sandwiches, mmm18:42
daftykinsoh right, yolk on its' own?18:42
lotus|xeniallike scrambled eggs, but not scrambled lol18:42
lotus|xenialwait a google pic18:43
Missl0tusthe yellow of the egg complete lol18:43
lotus|xenialdaftykins: http://static4.koken.vtm.be/sites/koken.vtm.be/files/recipe/image/istock_000002975400small.jpg18:44
lotus|xenialMissl0tus: you say it in english!18:44
daftykinsah just normal fried egg i'd call that18:44
Missl0tusthe boiled egg fried egg, sunny side up18:44
lotus|xenialgrrrr you googled it cheater Missl0tus18:45
Missl0tusyes yes18:45
Missl0tushorse eye lol18:46
daftykinsthat'd be one very sick horse18:46
lotus|xenialdaftykins: so how would you call this then? http://rachelcooksthai.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/fried-egg-1.jpg18:46
daftykinsan accident18:46
daftykinslooks like an omelette :)18:47
lotus|xenialbut an omelette is also fryed, in the pan?18:47
lotus|xenialyou dont have a special name for horse eye? :p18:47
daftykinsok you win, i am no eggxpert18:47
daftykinsi'm going to reassemble this broken phone and put a SIM in, see if i can call it XD18:49
lotus|xenialgive it a second life18:49
daftykinsoh yeah it's going to be fine hopefully once i receive the new screen, it's just likely weeks away on delivery :(18:49
lotus|xenialdaftykins: overseas delivery?18:53
daftykinsyeah cheap Hong Kong ebay job18:54
lotus|xenialgoold ol china :p18:54
daftykins£26 for the 1080p phone LCD, digitiser, glass and front casing O_O18:55
daftykinsi don't 100% believe it if i'm honest :)18:57
Missl0tushard-boiled egg!18:59
lotus|xenialill wait patienctly in my bed Missl0tus18:59
daftykinsyou'll be waiting a long, long time ;)19:10
lotus|xenialshe knows the way to the bakery19:10
Missl0tushe's so nice19:10
lotus|xenialromantic you mean19:11
daftykinshey it's no good to tease lisps!19:13
lotus|xenialOerHeks: !!!19:13
lotus|xenialOerHeks: OTA8 is alive and kicking19:14
Missl0tuslol daftykins19:14
OerHekshoi lotus, ja ik zag het net :-)19:14
lotus|xenialOerHeks: do you know the english word for 'paardenoog' (omelet)19:16
daftykinsaww yes fixed! ;)19:16
lotus|xenialdaftykins: looking very techy :p19:16
daftykinsMischief got in on the first pic - http://www.techblo.gg/stuff/n5.jpeg19:17
OerHekslotus|xenial, nope, 'paardenoog' looks like a normal egg19:18
lotus|xenialOerHeks: daftykins thinks its fryed eggs, but omelette is also fryed19:19
OerHeksomelette is egg, milk, salt & pepper, stirred until it is fluffy, then baked?19:21
OerHeksand if you stirr it during baking, it is scrambled egg ??19:22
lotus|xenialso fryed egg means its still complete19:22
daftykinseggs are too complex for moi19:22
daftykinsthat phone doesn't even turn its' display off, heh19:23
daftykinsah well, i must wait for the screen :(19:23
lotus|xenialdaftykins: maybe with power+vol down?19:24
daftykinsnah i can see it boot19:24
daftykinsi think it's getting stuck after android comes up though19:25
lotus|xeniallets hope it didnt break mobo19:25
OerHeksIs there a Quizz going on in #ubuntu ?19:25
daftykinsyeah some kind of locales challenge19:26
lotus|xenial#ubuntu-touch is even more weird19:26
lotus|xenialthat studio guys is asking weird noob questions for n hour19:27
OerHeksmir of wayland .. wat is cli?19:27
lotus|xenialdaftykins: she got a xorg line from an arch wiki19:36
lotus|xenialdaftykins: i already told her, thats not the way to go..19:36
daftykinsi gave a bunch of links, one was disabling Xorg's backing store, few other params19:36
lotus|xenialvictoria is a him?19:37
daftykinsyeah when this user first came in it was a guy, i think the nick is a cover up to maybe make people help more19:37
daftykinscommon tactic19:37
OerHeksit is just the same attentionseeker that is here all week, man.19:37
lotus|xenialwhats wrong with these ppl19:37
lotus|xenialirc crossdressing19:38
daftykinsin all seriousness i've encountered a lot of transgender or otherwise users on freenode19:39
OerHekserr .. wikipedia is right, 'heks' is most times a woman ... not always19:40
lotus|xeniali thought hacking wasnt allowed on freenode?19:42
lotus|xenialhow did those #opparis guys create this without seeing?19:42
OerHeksno such channel19:43
lotus|xenialOerHeks: * Now talking on #opparis19:44
daftykinszomg that phone booted! :D19:44
lotus|xenial!yay | daftykins19:44
ubot5daftykins: Glad you made it! :-)19:44
daftykinsit rings, when called too \o/19:44
OerHekscall me ... mayby ..19:50
OerHeksis there a thunderstorm worldwide, or earthquake comming?19:50
lotus|xenialhowso OerHeks ?19:51
daftykinsdefinitely some nasty gloomy weather over here :)19:52
lotus|xenialrainy here also19:52
daftykinsaaaaand that's enough of ubuntu for today19:53
lotus|xenialioria: !!!!20:00
lotus|xenialyou found us again20:01
ioriawow.... are you becoming xenial ?20:01
lotus|xenialioria: yes from the start20:01
lotus|xenialioria: updated from 15.1020:01
ioriahow it is ? i'm curious20:02
lotus|xenialioria: its still in daily image, but pretty sable so far20:02
ioriasomething new  ?20:03
lotus|xenialioria: new libreoffice, new firefox20:03
lotus|xenialand lots of internal stuff20:03
lotus|xenial!info libreoffice xenial20:03
ubot5libreoffice (source: libreoffice): office productivity suite (metapackage). In component universe, is optional. Version 1:5.0.2-0ubuntu5 (xenial), package size 25 kB, installed size 147 kB20:03
ioriai'd like to try it....20:04
lotus|xenialioria: well still looks mostly like 15.10 for now20:04
lotus|xenialioria: but im helping hunting early bugs so20:05
ioriai see... you are like the Rangers " Always a step ahead  , Horra  !!! "    :þ20:05
lotus|xenialioria: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntu-16-04-64bit-Development-branch-56886593020:14
iorialotus|xenial,   that's cool20:17
fusionedhey guys20:18
fusionedwas trying to get a feel for what games people with Trusty or Ubuntu are playing these days20:18
fusionedbe it naitive, with WINE, emulators, playonlinux, whatevs20:19
lotus|xenialfusioned: i find shadow of mordor intensive on ubuntu20:19
lotus|xenialsteam game20:19
fusionedive heard of that game. what type of game is it like? rpg? mmo?20:20
lotus|xenialfusioned: check steams database for linux games20:20
lotus|xenialfusioned: check the shadow of mordor trailer :p20:20
* daftykins pats his xbox20:21
fusionedhave you tried Rust?20:22
fusionedRust looks kinda cool20:22
lotus|xenialno im not really a gamer20:22
daftykins#ubuntu-steam might allow gaming chat, not sure20:23
lotus|xenial!info links220:32
ubot5links2 (source: links2): Web browser running in both graphics and text mode. In component universe, is optional. Version 2.8-2 (vivid), package size 1834 kB, installed size 3007 kB20:32
lotus|xenialnite nite all21:24
lotus|xenialsudo halt -p21:25
OerHekssee you soon, maroon21:25
lotus|xenialOerHeks: byebye ; )21:25
fusionedgonna kick it old school and play some diablo 2 and half-life and Q3 Arena21:33
fusionedmaybe Manhunt too since it runs well with WINE21:33
daftykinsjust don't tell the devs...21:48

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