[00:02] my desktop https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6885560/mybackground.png this happening 4 years ago [00:03] puppies! [00:03] Jups, there were 8, but all i have now is the smallest one [00:04] you know what they say about picking the runt of the litter! :) [00:04] spread your 2 hands together, and you'll have the size of the bunch [00:05] picking the runt of the litter, let me bing it.. [00:05] oh, oke [00:06] He was the smallest one, but so lightweight, he could get on top and get the fattest milk [00:07] His eyes squint, but that is no problem, except if he runs off.. [00:08] :D [00:09] one way to keep him with me :-) [00:26] daftykins, While you guys may not agree with what I said, it's function / method is used by many developers to test the very thing(s) you all said were unwise. The guy was running a short term support release, that in itself is "unwsie" for a production environment. [00:27] ki7mt: that wasn't even vaguely the original query, you seem to be having a seriously hard time accepting being told you were wrong [00:27] True, for production i would choose lts over cutting edge .. but he was asking earlier howto upgrade to the latest. [00:28] I dont have a problem with that at all, but, what I said, in fact, is not wrong. It is a method, all bit, know the risks. [00:29] ki7mt: yes but for the second god damn time, you didn't SHARE the risks. [00:29] and no it was 100% ridiculous that you even brought it up [00:32] God doesn't have anything to do with it, so dont take his name in vain please. So your requirment is, if there's a risk in any recommendation, we " those providing a suggestion", should make them agree to a risk statement before hand .. LOL .. [00:32] that channel would cease to exist on that basis. [00:32] It is not only the person who we talk too, many find solutions in the logs too. or read it with us. [00:33] this isn't a place for any daft religious commentary [00:34] ki7mt: it's a lot simpler, stop giving bad advice - can we move on now instead of having you get hung up for hours on a single query? [00:34] They find them all over the web too, like roll your own kernel, but they don't write "Danger Will Robinson" all of the top of the WIKI page do they. [00:34] once again you're not even comparing apples to apples, that is some seriously poor logic [00:34] we weren't talking about something being obtained from a third party. [00:35] what third party, how did that enter the picture? [00:35] when you just mentioned someone rolling their own kernel [00:35] that was totally miles away from the persons original query [00:36] In response too: "It is not only the person who we talk too, many find solutions in the logs too. or read it with us." I didn't bring it up, your did. [00:36] i did. [00:36] his original query was well understood. [00:36] use a nick so we know who you're talking to, then [00:37] look, just drop it will you? and don't advise pinning again when it ruins security [00:38] I will drop it, but what I wont drop is being told my answer was wrong, when in every bases of fact, what I was., was a viable solution. It's just your option, which your entitled too, that it should not be done that way, does not make the solution wrong. [00:39] s/ wat it was/g [00:39] ki7mt, big issue is: ubuntu switches to SystemD .. and skipping a release, well, i am not sure it is going to be oke [00:40] it might be, but i am not going to test that. [00:41] OerHeks, Yes, that may very well cause a problem. [00:41] it was not viable whatsoever. [00:41] Option again. [00:41] prove it. [00:42] OerHeks: the_count Be aware he is a 15 year old, but pretty sharp . [00:42] it doesn't need proving, you told someone to enact a process that meant they'd never get newer kernel versions (minor versions, the two digits following the major version) [00:42] ki7mt: i genuinely do not understand what major malfunction is preventing you from seeing blatant fact. [00:42] "Never" thats wrong completely wrong. [00:43] bullshit. [00:43] All one has to do is remove the lock. [00:43] Bashing-om, wish i was 15 .. any show will give me a job :-D [00:43] oh my word every successive comment from you is more retarded than the last [00:43] show-shop [00:44] i'm done with this topic. stop spewing nonsense. [00:44] Now my comments are retarded, because but your statement was completely wrong. [00:46] well if you're going to be really childish and take apart sentences word for word, then yeah - we're done. [00:46] So, I'm wrong because I dont wave a rad flag before a suggestion, I'm wrong because it's a risk, Im wrong becasue you dont like the method, and in case your wrong about package holding. [00:46] stating that a condition changes when you undo the action, is basic logic [00:47] i've already made my point, you shouldn't still be struggling at this [00:47] now try and detach your emotions from computing tasks, they don't belong here [00:47] Oh, fear not, Im not struggling wiht this at all. [00:48] now your saying I'm being guided by emotions? [00:48] you're ignored now. go spew nonsense somewhere else [00:49] good thank you.\ [00:52] you were wrong because you're wrong [00:52] This is too funny. [00:53] your suggestion amounted to "disable security updates" [00:53] for absolutely no reason [00:53] Agreed. [00:53] whoops, not for no reason. [00:53] yes for no reason [00:53] that' doesn't make it wrong. [00:53] it sure does [00:53] holding any packages doe that. [00:53] Nov 18 2015 15:41:42 n8s, If you have a kernel you like, putting a hold on the package is one way to ensure it sticky [00:54] very dumb [00:54] *nod* [00:54] Yes, exactly, "one way" [00:54] the dumbest way [00:54] Option. [00:54] because normal updates don't change the kernel [00:54] Agreed. [00:54] so its pointless, and not secure and stupid [00:54] More options ==> Stupid [00:54] And it's not pointless. [00:54] it absolutely is pointless [00:55] So whats is the point of holding a package then? [00:55] don't get security updates for your kernel because...? [00:55] Again, what is the point of holding a package? [00:56] so your argument is basically "why do knives have sharp edges unless they're made to stab people" [00:56] No, I'd like you to answer the question, what is the point or purpose of holding a package? [00:57] not for holding kernels because you "like it" [00:57] Oh, so, the hold function does not work for kernel packages, everything but? [00:57] again, the knife argument [00:58] obviously knives can be used to stab people, that means you must do it! [00:58] It's there to use as one sees fit, if you don't like it, don't use it, that doesn't make it wrong to use. [00:59] using it improperly is wrong [00:59] * daftykins chuckles [00:59] bleeeh .. IT IS WRONG! and against the ubuntu policy, we need to keep a line here [00:59] lol . yeah that's funny, where doe it say not to use this on certain files. [00:59] just like stabbing someone is wrong [00:59] its a tool, just like a knife [01:00] suggesting that someone hold a kernel package is a terrible idea, even more terrible when you don't explain the ramifications of doing so [01:01] I dont care about knives dude, we're talkign about the usage of or not, the package hold function. You guys are telling me tis' wrong to use on a kernel, but the same argument could eb said oof any package could it not? [01:01] yes [01:01] Thank You ! [01:01] you shouldn't hold any packages [01:01] sit is wsie to use, weight the risks oneself. [01:01] is it wise .. [01:01] except you didn't explain anything [01:01] you made the stupid suggestion that someone hold a kernel if "they like it" [01:02] You shoudl Hold Packages, "IF" you dont know what your doing with the hold. [01:02] theres no point, you have no point [01:02] Sorry Should Not hold [01:02] which you didn't explain at all [01:02] batshit insane factor rising... [01:02] And I agreed to as much. [01:02] yet you still argue that you have a damn point [01:02] you've yet to explain more than "liking" a package the reason to hold it [01:03] I have a "valid" point, and I said, weigh the risks, but, it doesn't make the method "wrong" [01:03] it does make the method wrong [01:03] what problem does it solve, what problems does it create? [01:03] solves nothing, creates security issues [01:03] therefore, it's not a solution, its a problem [01:03] And Ive asked how that is, and all I get back ins "security this, security that" [01:03] WoW runs in Syria, Assasins Creed in Palestina and FallOut in Fukushima .. what gameconsoleshould i ask for xmas? [01:04] OerHeks: ps4 [01:04] ki7mt: because security matters, surprise surprise. [01:05] Your kidding right? So does using a short term release of software, does that mean you shouldn't use it. [01:05] what do you mean by "short term release of software" [01:05] In this context, you'd have to say yes, because it's a security risk [01:06] short term == not longer being updated [01:06] no longer [01:06] once again you keep moving the topic about to take the focus off the mistake you made [01:06] Whatever bug were there, are there [01:06] non sequitur [01:06] Im not moving the topic at all, [01:06] you completely did [01:06] pinning a package is ok because sometimes people run unsupported releases? [01:07] you said, don't do it because of security risks [01:07] complete non sequitur [01:08] Your putting, and I dont disagree here, security above all else. But, there are times when a risk is needed to deal with a problem. [01:09] no [01:09] i think you need to learn to let this one go. [01:09] and still you haven't ever explained this magical problem that requires you to pin a kernel [01:09] however, the person creating the risk needs to understand that risk, "which did not fully disclose" on that count, guilty as charged. [01:11] lol .. daftykins you need to stop telling people what to do, because your really bad at it. [01:11] Ben64, I don't have a "magical" problem that needs solving. [01:11] ki7mt: at least i back down when i'm told my advice is wrong - and don't blather on about the same thing for an hour after it happens. [01:12] :) [01:12] ki7mt: so don't suggest a stupid answer to your non-existent problem [01:13] Ben64, I didn't, he wanted to stay on a specific kernel version, what was it. [01:13] that was it [01:13] which already happens in ubuntu without doing anything silly [01:13] I merely said pin it, and the walls of hell opened up, OMG, you cant pin a kernal blah blah blah .. LMAO [01:14] yeah, because you're wrong [01:14] how [01:14] learn from it [01:14] I woiiuld if you tell me how it was wrong, [01:14] i just did [01:14] You all said, its wrong becasue of security ? is that right? [01:15] Nov 18 2015 17:13:46 which already happens in ubuntu without doing anything silly [01:15] kernel versions don't change on a release of ubuntu [01:15] ki7mt: 3 of us have said over and over it was wrong, grow up and accept it. [01:15] daftykins, I thought you ignored me, please do that. [01:16] Ben64, If the package name, number whatever, changes, is that not a version change ? [01:16] linux-image-3.13.0-27-generic [01:16] linux-image-3.13.0-68-generic [01:16] kernel series, yes, I agree, 3.18, 3.19 whatever that would eb the series. [01:16] same version [01:16] i think there's a screw loose or medication situation here :( [01:17] It's the same versies ( your calling version), the package is different is it not? [01:17] same series [01:17] 3.13.0 is the kernel [01:17] * daftykins chuckles [01:17] yes, no what is 3.13.1 [01:17] A different PACKAGE !!!!!!!!!!1 [01:18] get it [01:18] correct, but i didn't say 3.13.1 ever [01:18] that was an example. [01:18] because the version doesn't change [01:18] yeah a bad example [01:18] Agreed, the "version" does nto, but the package does. [01:18] so you agree the version doesn't change [01:19] and when I freeze that "Package" thats it, that what I want, and it should stay there. [01:19] why do you want that [01:20] yes, the version, as in 3.18 series kernel does not, as the patches, unless Im mistaked are applied to that Kernel Version or series. [01:20] Nov 18 2015 17:13:06 Ben64, I didn't, he wanted to stay on a specific kernel version, what was it. [01:20] so again, the version doesn't change [01:20] want to stay on the same version [01:20] solution = update normally [01:21] from my perspective, anythign that changes in the "Package" i is a change, be the series kerenl itself or not. [01:21] well you're wrong again [01:21] BS [01:21] and you have no reason for any of this [01:21] i've tried to extract the dumb reasoning out of your head, but it's too damn thick [01:22] The reason can be anything, I dont have a specific use case, I just provided an example. [01:23] the reason can't be anything [01:23] agreed, if we're being pedantic here, anything is not true. [01:24] you can't provide any reason to pin a kernel package [01:24] so there is no reason to suggest it [01:24] Sure I can. Becasue "I Want To" that's a reason; good one, no, but it's a reason. [01:24] no reason to suggest it to anyone else [01:25] Or, I dont want the package to change at all, for any reason. [01:25] you can be as dumb as you want, don't bring others down with you [01:25] Oh, now Im dumb? [01:26] your actions and reasons are dumb [01:26] If he eantes to stay on s specif package, pin it, thats the purpose of the function is it not, It's up the the person "hwy" they want to stay on it, not my responsibility to "extract" his reasoning for doign something. [01:27] don't suggest it anyway [01:27] Your wrong again. I gave no reason for doing it, other than it's a plausible method, that is not dumb. [01:28] it is very dumb [01:28] it's a simple means to an end, period. [01:28] it's not [01:28] That's an opinion. [01:28] nope [01:28] does pinning the package not work? [01:28] does it not prevent it from being upgraded ? [01:29] whats the reason [01:29] I dont care about the reason, we're taking about the action. [01:29] the kernel version does not change in any version of ubuntu for a good reason [01:29] theres absolutely no reason to ever pin it [01:29] does it not work == Yes It Does, therefore, a means to an end == True. [01:29] You say there's no reason, that's an opinion. [01:29] its a fact [01:30] and it's yours, your entitled to it. [01:30] the burden of proof is on you [01:30] and you can't provide anything other than "i want to" [01:30] which is stupid [01:30] Wrong again, I dont have a reason for doing it, Im merely saying, that is works. [01:30] Stupid == Another opinion. [01:30] nobody ever argued that it didn't work [01:30] and its yuors. [01:31] the point is it is stupid [01:31] Yes, but everyone sure screamed bloddy murder about security .. well news flash, if you freeze a package, you take that risk. [01:31] for no reason [01:32] = stupid [01:32] Again, Your opinion. [01:32] you have no reason, you've provided no reason, there is no reason [01:32] Other, may or may not agree [01:33] Dude, what part of this dont you understand, "I Dont Have A Need To Pin A Package" .. I merely stated that would freeze the stupid kernel package. [01:33] theres no reason to do so, and no reason to suggest someone do that [01:33] And you just agreed that it would/ [01:33] No reason == Your Opinion agian. [01:34] this looks like a bad nickname o0 [01:34] or just silly :D [01:34] i've asked many times why that would be valid solution and you couldn't provide anything [01:34] You see no reason, that does mot me the rest of the world may not have one. [01:34] so there is no reason [01:34] does not mean [01:34] it certainly didn't solve the person's problem in #ubuntu [01:34] don't suggest it [01:35] That may be a better criticism, while it was an option, it may not have solved his problem or need. [01:35] go pin all the packages you want, just don't tell others to [01:35] its not an option [01:35] it only causes problems [01:35] Dont tell me what to do, you dont own me. [01:36] a support channel is for support, you did the opposite of that [01:36] i'll do whatever i want [01:36] YOu can try. [01:36] i'll succeed [01:36] I've not tolkd you what to do, not called you names, have I? [01:36] you should, by your own morals, want to adopt sense and not mislead users if you're ever going to field questions again [01:36] i haven't called you names either, just called your ideas names [01:37] which by all accounts, are stupid ideas [01:37] Ben64, I don't think So, I've done "Nothing" against the rules. [01:37] !behelpful [01:37] As our !guidelines say, "When helping, be helpful". If you're not familiar with the issue at hand, let someone else handle it instead of making !offtopic comments or jokes. [01:37] you weren't helpful [01:38] And you can prove I intentionally mislead this person or tried to do somethind "Bad" here? The only bad being done here, is the way you've all spoken in general, to me personally. [01:39] the goal was to have you see that it was bad advice [01:39] ANd you can prove my intention, was not to be helpful ? [01:39] which you seem to refuse to accept [01:39] That's just wrong, did you look at the conversation he and I had just priror to you all jumping down my throoat? [01:40] Of course not [01:40] i did [01:40] ANd I was not trying to be helpful there? [01:40] and that was bad advise to recommend LTS over a short term support version for "production" ? [01:40] we only took issue with you saying to hold a kernel package [01:41] Oh, Im well aware of what you all took issue with. [01:41] Well let me tell you something ... [01:41] i don't know why you're bringing other stuff up then [01:41] I've called named, belittled, defaced, just a name a few adjectives, and it's all being logged. [01:43] it's definitely just being taken way too personally this [01:43] Im pissed off at the matter in which you all treated me in this situation, when "In Fact" what I stated was true and would stop that kernel from being updated. Best choice, no, I didn't say it was. [01:43] s/matter/manner/g [01:43] again, there is no reason to prevent kernel updates [01:43] pretty sad really [01:43] yeah, you are pretty sad daftykins [01:44] Ben64, You say there's no reason. [01:44] no, i've done nothing but honourable things :) you're the one crying over being told you were wrong [01:44] I may say there's no reason, but it's a "Fact" we dont speak foreveryone, we're not god m8, newsflash. [01:44] ki7mt: give a reason then? a problem that would be solved by cutting off kernel updates? [01:46] Ben64, Im not going down your rabbit hole again, what said was true, and factual, certainly no misleading, and was intended to be helpful. You all got nasty with me, and that pissed me off. [01:46] daftykins, See, I'm not crying about anything, but you may be beofore it all over. [01:47] I didn't get nasty at any point. What you said was incorrect, ignored the effects of that action. It may have been intended to be helpful but it wasn't helpful at all. Please learn from this [01:47] s/nasty/correcting bad advice/ [01:47] ki7mt: oh with laughter as you carry on? you may well be right there :) [01:48] daftykins, No, that's not the issue at all, it's your attitude, to others, I can't do anything about, but when directed toward me, I can, and certainly will. Do bare than in mind. [01:49] you need to stop taking stuff so personally [01:49] daftykins and I have had our differences, but I'm not holding a grudge, I hope daftykins isn't either [01:49] There you go again, telling me what I need to do, stop, you've not Idea what I need or do not need. [01:50] If I am wrong, so bit, I've admitted as much in the channel many time. [01:50] Ben64: nah, i respect your advice giving - i've definitely been an ass to you at times, in fact i've never apologised for that! [01:50] But I've never attacked anyone in the channel, or elswhere in IRC for that matter. [01:51] we're always going to point out those giving bad advice, because the #1 thing is doing right by the user, so you're just going to need to deal with that [01:52] any suggestion that compromises security is definitely going to get a negative response [01:52] Ben64, I supposed it's all a matter of perspective, and in this case, it's my perspective, you've no leverage there, and to me, there are many comments that were / are uncalled for, and just plain indescent. [01:53] Ben64, Because that's important to "YOU" .. dont put your prejudice on others. [01:53] don't tell me what to do! [01:54] How do you like it? [01:54] i was joking, i don't care what someone says to me [01:54] Im not [01:54] and I do care what others say to me. [01:54] but really, a support channel is about support. give bad support, you better be able to deal with the backlash [01:54] the easy way is to not give bad support [01:54] How old are you oif I may ask? [01:54] doesn't matter [01:55] whoos, old [01:55] Sure it does [01:55] Ok, different tac, what was the first Kernel version you ever used. [01:56] not sure how thats relevant [01:56] Sure it is, your telling me, that I need tolearn how to deal with support and it's pro / cons yes? [01:57] I'm saying don't give bad support. what kernel version I started with doesn't matter for that [01:58] Your picking up on the the message here, it's not what you say, it's how you say it! [01:59] LOL Your Not Picking up [02:00] you didn't pick up that what you said was bad advice [02:00] If you ahve a better idea, better method, state the method, and put it to your self, as is, it's what you'd do, as smashing other people, be them right or wrong, is bad customer service in anyones book. [02:00] the "customers" would be the people wanting help in #ubuntu [02:00] One know this if they they knew anything about real support at all. [02:01] if your analogy is expanded, you and I would be coworkers, and I was informing you of your bad customer service [02:01] Im well aware of who the "Customers " are. [02:01] Ben64, If you want to look at it that way, sure. Bust me for being wrong, but dont deface the service by doing in public. [02:02] its a public channel you were told that that isn't good advice, and you refused to accept it [02:02] That yields nothing positive at all, for anyone. [02:03] Your still not getting it .. it's not what I was told, it's how, good god. [02:04] you kept pushing it further [02:05] Now the next time, if there is a next time, I go in the channel to help, and Im looked upon as a idiot thanks to you all, and the fact of the matter is, my answer "Was No tWrong" it would do exactly what I said it would it just did not meet the approval of others, for "Their Own Reason" [02:05] see, you still won't accept that you were wrong [02:05] just learn from this already [02:05] Ben64, This is going allot further, it's just the beginning, I can assure you. [02:05] is that some kind of threat [02:06] What? [02:08] Ben64, I wont accept that I was wrong, because the asnwer I gave would do exactly what I said it would it would "Pin The Kernel". [02:08] that isn't what you said though [02:08] and it wasn't a solution to the problem [02:08] so it was and still is wrong [02:08] and are you saying that it would not ping the kernel package? [02:08] pin [02:08] thats not what you said it would do [02:09] It may not have been a solution to the problem. I merely said, go look look up the transcript, one way to do x,y,z is to hold the package. [02:10] you were suggesting that if someone likes a kernel, that they should hold it. which doesn't make sense since the kernel version doesn't change [02:10] And are you saying that that holding the package would not affectly freeze the kernel as is? [02:11] Ben64, That's another rabbit hole, not going down those, .. go look up what I said. [02:11] i did, and you're still wrong [02:11] How so. [02:11] you can't retcon when i have channel logs [02:11] retcon ? [02:11] verb verb: retcon; 3rd person present: retcons; past tense: retconned; past participle: retconned; gerund or present participle: retconning; verb: ret-con; 3rd person present: ret-cons; past tense: ret-conned; past participle: ret-conned; gerund or present participle: ret-conning 1. revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previousl [02:11] y described events. [02:12] I can go get the exact satement if you like, I have them all. [02:12] I log every thing that goes on is ever channel I join. [02:12] me too [02:13] That's a wise thing to do. [02:13] So, is what I said, not factual, in regards to pinning the package. [02:14] I'll rephrase, would it not affectedly freeze that kernel by placing a package hold on it. [02:14] you keep changing the argument [02:15] No, your saying I am wrong. Im saying, it will do what I said, but you wont tell me why what I said wont do what I stated in the channel. [02:16] in #ubuntu you were saying it like it was a solution to a problem. it isn't. [02:16] You all have said, I'm wrong, I'm stupid, it's dumb, it's a security risk, and about ten other things, but what you've not said, will it not hold the package. [02:16] here you're trying to argue that holding a package holds a package [02:16] that's what I said in the channel, Yes [02:17] i have in fact said that the tool does function [02:17] which wasn't the original argument at all [02:17] the whole issue was that doing so removes security updates from the kernel, which is bad [02:18] And you all jumped all over me telling me why "I Should Not Do That", my argument allon has been, it should pin the kernel, but you tell me why it wont do that. [02:18] nobody ever said holding a package wouldn't work [02:18] its just a really bad idea to do so [02:19] Dude, I Understnd the Risks, and Affect, but ANSWER the Questino !! wil it not do what I said? [02:19] please read above [02:19] A simple Yes or No would Suffice. [02:20] Your telling me Im wrong, and that's what I said, it would pin the package, so who is wrong. [02:20] that isn't what you said [02:20] So ither pinnign doesn't work, or your statment is inaccurate. [02:20] that's what you're now trying to argue in this channel [02:20] It what I said. [02:20] It is what I said. [02:21] since you log everything, please post where anyone said that pinning wouldn't pin [02:21] What I said exactly: n8s, If you have a kernel you like, putting a hold on the package is one way to ensure it sticky [02:21] Now, argue that. [02:22] terrible advice, and pointless [02:22] Now you argue the work "Sticky" [02:22] same as before [02:22] Those are opinions, again !!! [02:22] would it not Workk !!!!!!!!! [02:23] Answer = =Yes, it would. [02:24] Whether you think it's good advise or not, is the issue we're discussing. The question si, Would It Work. Yes it would I think. Now is it the best advise, that's another matter. [02:24] its bad advice and doesn't belong on #ubuntu [02:24] and it's irrelevant because once again, the kernel versions DO NOT CHANGE [02:24] That's an opinion, why wont you answer the question. [02:25] what's the question now? you keep changing it [02:26] Would putting a hold on the package as suggested not freeze the kernel package as is? [02:26] nobody ever argued against that [02:27]