=== retrack is now known as Guest39253 [03:27] when I am trying to config a snap, I get the following error http://paste.ubuntu.com/13499100/. what could be the reason for it? === chihchun_afk is now known as chihchun [03:57] how to set a locale for my raspberry pi device. I get the error like http://paste.ubuntu.com/13499347/ === chihchun is now known as chihchun_afk === chihchun_afk is now known as chihchun [07:20] good morning [07:37] liuxg, looking at the webcam example right now [07:37] dholbach, ok. thanks! [07:39] dholbach, I just installed the latest snapcraft 0.5 version, and I got the error like http://paste.ubuntu.com/13500846/ [07:40] liuxg, I don't see that happening here... the .snap build succeeds for me [07:40] which version of Ubuntu are you using? [07:41] dholbach, I am now on vivid, and I am using snapcraft 0.5 [07:41] dholbach, what is your snapcraft version? [07:42] liuxg, I'm just using it from the git branch [07:43] dholbach, liuxg@liuxg:~/snappy/examples$ snapcraft version snapcraft (0.5).Run "snapcraft help" to get started. [07:43] ok [07:43] that's the most recent [07:44] dholbach, what is your version in your place? I just re-pulled the code, and I got the same error in my place. [07:44] 481c79b7cee578e793baaf02bb733f1e14e1bd29 is the last commit [07:47] liuxg, did you make modifications to the snapcraft.yaml in that directory? [07:47] dholbach, how did you install your snapcraft? I used ./setup.py build and sudo ./setup.py install [07:48] git clone and then I ran it with ../../bin/snapcraft [07:48] I didn't install it locally, but used the version from the archive [07:48] dholbach, no, I did not do any change. It complained "DEPRECATED: plugin names ending in -project are deprecated. Using python3 instead of python3-project". I changed it to python3, and I got the same error. [07:49] that's a warning only, I'll submit a fix for that [07:50] dholbach, yes, you are right. your way worked. I do not know how come I did not install it successfully? [07:50] maybe send a mail to the mailing list about it? [07:51] dholbach, yeah, I think it is a good idea [07:52] dholbach, by the way, what is the use of the setup.py there in the project? [07:53] it's used internally for building the package for the ppa and the archive [07:54] liuxg, https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/pull/115/files for the warning you saw earlier [07:56] dholbach, I got it. so for the project itself, it is no much use, right? [07:56] I'm not sure I understand the question [08:02] dholbach, what i mean is that setup.py in the example project is only for ppa use, not for building the snap purpose :) [08:02] oh.... sorry [08:03] in which example project? [08:03] in the webcamui? [08:03] there it's used to install the relevant file in the right places [08:03] it's the project's "build system" [08:06] dholbach, yes, it is in the webcam-webui project https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/blob/master/examples/webcam-webui/setup.py [08:06] dholbach, do we need to use it for any purpose from a developer point of view? [08:06] yep, it's used by 'snapcraft build' [08:06] when it uses the python3 plugin [08:07] dholbach, so for the snapcraft.yaml, it is of no use? [08:07] it is of use [08:07] python3 or python2 projects use setup.py [08:07] the cmake plugin uses CMakeLists.txt [08:07] etc [08:07] dholbach, so, it is used there for the python3 plugin during the compile process? [08:08] yes [08:08] so whenever you use a certain plugin, your project needs to fulfil y certain set of requirements [08:10] dholbach, I used to compile a python project, in fact, I did not use the setup.py, and it worked directly. [08:10] dholbach, this is the one https://github.com/campbieil/mqtt-for-ubuntu-core [08:12] good morning [08:36] liuxg, if you look at the snapcraft.yaml it uses the python3 plugin [08:36] liuxg, and if you look at the source it's pulling in (https://git.eclipse.org/c/paho/org.eclipse.paho.mqtt.python.git/tree/), there's a setup.py [08:37] morning [08:38] dholbach, oh, thanks. I will check it. by the way, do you know how to use golang to do the config for snappy? [08:38] golang and config are two separate things [08:39] go is a plugin just like python3 or cmake or node or anything else - the way the project is built [08:39] the config is a layer on top of that [08:42] dholbach, I mean if you have any examples showing how to do the config in golang. Currently, all of the samples use python to do that. [08:44] dholbach, webcam-webui is a good project. however, it involves too many technologies:　golang, script, python, c. For developers, it is not easy to master all of these. I think it is good to stick to a narrow set, [08:44] I don't know if there's an example for that [08:45] but seriously, you can have config on top of any plugin you like, it's a separate thing [08:45] dholbach, if is true. We can manually handle that as well. Still a programming way makes it easier. [08:46] kind of like you can have services and binaries defined in a snap, no matter which plugin was used to build the part(s) [08:49] dholbach, I think it is good to provide the solution in different method in addition to the python one in the example. [08:50] right [09:01] dholbach, I just sent an email to the snappy mailinglist for the build problem. [09:01] ok cool [09:02] dholbach, may I ask whether there is any golang solution to the config? [09:02] I don't know [09:23] dholbach, in the webcam-webui example, config.py is finally copied to the /usr/bin/config.py. how can this be done in the snapcraft.yaml? I do not see the copy there. [09:24] liuxg, it's installed via setup.py - see the scripts definition in there? [09:25] dholbach, yeah, I see config.py there. is this unique to the python? [09:26] yes, in setup.py you can define modules, data files, scripts and other stuff [09:26] scripts are automatically installed into usr/bin [09:28] dholbach, it looks a new syntax to me anyway. I just take it for granted! === joc|away is now known as joc_ [09:28] in the python world it's very nice and easy to use [09:30] dholbach, in fact, there is a bug for it. http://paste.ubuntu.com/13501234/ [09:30] dholbach, in the final installation, the config.py is not there even though it appears in the "snap" directory [09:30] I don't understand [09:31] dholbach, you just deploy the snap, and on the target, you do not find the config.py file there in the /usr/bin directory [09:31] it is there [09:31] aniel@daydream:~/dev/snappy/snapcraft/examples/webcam-webui$ dpkg -c webcam-webui_1_amd64.snap | grep bin/config.py [09:31] -rwxrwxr-x root/root 246 2015-11-25 10:15 ./usr/bin/config.py [09:31] daniel@daydream:~/dev/snappy/snapcraft/examples/webcam-webui$ [09:34] dholbach, have you installed it onto KVM? [09:34] no, this is just locally [09:34] I ran the build and inspected the resulting snap file [09:35] dholbach, strange. let me reinstall it. [09:41] dholbach, sorry, I found it in the /usr/bin directory. However, when I ran th config, I got an error like http://paste.ubuntu.com/13501276/ [09:45] dholbach, what doe exactly the config file look like? I cannot create one. [09:46] can you file a bug about this? [09:46] it looks like a bug [09:46] dholbach, against snapcraft project? did you duplicate this in your place? [09:46] I'm busy with something else right now, so I didn't try it locally yet [09:47] dholbach, ok. I will file a bug for it. [10:38] Good morning all; happy Wednesday, and happy Shopping Reminder Day! 😃 [11:02] liuxg: to know the os version, 'snappy info' and 'snappy list' together would work [11:03] Chipaca, interesting, lsb_release -a command works as well. Description: Ubuntu 15.04. so what is the right command to turn the autopilot off? [11:04] Chipaca, snappy info and snappy list do not tell me the OS version. [11:04] liuxg: well then you mean something different than I understand by “OS version” [11:05] because `snappy info` tells me `ubuntu-core/rolling/edge` [11:05] Chipaca, just now, you said if you ran on 15.04, .... [11:05] and `snappy list` tells me I'm on revision 259 [11:05] Chipaca, snappy config ubuntu-core | grep autoupdate does not return anything [11:05] liuxg: what does `snappy list` output [11:06] sorry [11:06] liuxg: snappy info [11:06] Chipaca, http://paste.ubuntu.com/13501602/ [11:07] liuxg: and snappy info? [11:07] Chipaca, snappy info http://paste.ubuntu.com/13501606/ [11:07] liuxg: first line of that snappy info output [11:07] liuxg: tells you you're on ubuntu-core/15.04/stable [11:08] liuxg: and snappy list tells me you're on revision 2 of 15.04/stable [11:08] Chipaca, yes, I saw it. thanks. but snappy config ubuntu-core | grep autoupdate command does not tell me anything there. [11:08] liuxg: which also tells me you're something like 8 releases behind current [11:09] Chipaca, so, I need to update my system? [11:09] liuxg: as I said, if you're on 15.04, s/autoupdate/autopilot/ [11:09] liuxg: very yes [11:09] liuxg: and it sounds like it's been trying to do so for a while [11:09] liuxg: it's possible the update is failing and you're rolling back automatically, if so it'd be somewhat interesting to figure out why [11:09] Chipaca, do you mean "s/autoupdate/autopilot/" command? [11:10] but only somehwat, because the raspberry pi was not officially supported on release 2 [11:10] version 2 [11:10] revision 2 [11:10] whatever we call it [11:10] * Chipaca has a headache [11:10] Chipaca, yes, it keeps trying. I need to manually upgrade it :) [11:10] liuxg: so it's entirely possible you *can't* upgrade and need to reflash; ogra_ would know more [11:11] Chipaca, I can flash it myself. that is not a problem. [11:11] liuxg: by s/autoupdate/autopilot/ i mean "replace autoupdate by autopilot in all the doc", because autoupdate is the new name; it used to be called autopilot [11:12] I'm not sure if we changed it in the latest 15.04, but I think not [11:12] Chipaca, OK. I got it. thanks! I think it is good to update the doc. [11:12] in any case, if ... config | grep autoupdate doesn't print anything, you need to say autopilot instead [11:12] no, it's not good to update the doc [11:12] that doc is correct for rolling [11:13] it's also published for stable on the ubuntu website, which you can probably find easier than i [11:13] i just have the github link closer to hand [11:14] Chipaca, in my place, both ways do not show anything there http://paste.ubuntu.com/13501627/ [11:15] liuxg: update first [11:15] Chipaca, OK [11:15] Chipaca, https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/snappy/guides/autopilot/ [11:16] yes, that's the *old* old doc [11:16] update, and let's check [11:17] Chipaca, so, the doc needs to be updated, right? [11:17] that's what i meant by “update, and let's check” [11:18] i believe it does [11:18] but i've lost track a little [11:18] Chipaca, my system refuses to update to the latest http://paste.ubuntu.com/13501646/ [11:19] Chipaca, the new version is there. it happened to me before. [11:19] Chipaca, the latest version is there, but it does not use it. [11:20] ogra_: ping [11:21] hey [11:21] Chipaca, I use to report a bug at https://bugs.launchpad.net/snappy/+bug/1508368 [11:21] Launchpad bug 1508368 in Snappy "Ubuntu core does not boot into the right version" [Undecided,Incomplete] [11:21] Chipaca, it happened on the KVM long time ago. [11:22] ogra_: when is 15.04/stable revision 2 on rpi2 from? and should update work? [11:22] Chipaca, only for subsequent images ... [11:23] liuxg: ^. Just reflash the rpi2 to something newer. [11:24] http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-snappy/15.04/stable/latest/ has the official images [11:37] what is this?? https://uappexplorer.com/app/ubuntu-classic-armhf.mvo [11:37] Guest552342, it installs a classic "deb" mode [11:38] (in its very early stages still though, the implementation can still change) [11:38] ogra_, AWESOME! :D [11:39] oh it's only for armhf :\ [11:39] i haz none, only x86 [11:39] (i.e. you will be able to install debs in a container that uses the snappy rootfs as base) [11:40] super nice! [11:41] can't wait to land on the phone :D [11:41] (to make running snapcraft to create snappy packages easy) [11:42] i'm not sure how much of snappy will actually land on the phone initially ... [11:42] i think the plan is to only support the package format for now ... not an actual snappy install yet [11:42] i'll be happy with whatever it lands :D but when? :P [11:42] in time for 16.04 [11:42] soon then [11:48] Guest552342: ubuntu-classic.mvo is the version for amd64 [11:49] Guest552342: but like ogra_ said, there will be some changes :) [11:49] mvo, interestingly uappexplorer doesnt fine the non armhf version [11:50] https://uappexplorer.com/apps?q=ubuntu-classic&sort=relevance&type=snappy [11:50] Hello! [11:50] thanks mvo :D yep ogra_ i coudn't find the amd64 version in uappexplorer [11:50] snappy searhc should find it though [11:50] Not sure it's a snappy problem or a LXD problem, but I can't start a Trusty image on a rpi with Snappy [11:50] might be a bug in uappexplorer [11:50] log here : http://paste.ubuntu.com/13501779/ [11:51] it used to work ok [11:51] SaMnCo-desktop, hmm, without sudo ? [11:51] (RaspberryPi2)ubuntu@samnco01:~$ sudo lxc start trusty [11:51] error: cannot read config file: open /home/ubuntu/apps/lxd/0.21-1/.config/lxc/config.yml: permission denied [11:52] ogra_- ^ [11:52] hmm [11:53] i fear you have to wait for stgraber [11:53] ogra_- I have this line: No such file or directory - failed to access to '/var/lib/apps/lxd/current//lxc', check it is present [11:54] and ls /var/lib/apps/lxd/current doesn't exist [11:54] should I create the symlink myself? [11:54] hmm, it should, how old is your rpi image ? [11:55] pretty new, a couple of weeks maybe? [11:56] well, the link should be there with the last stable image and with rolling [11:56] iirc we set it everywhere now [11:56] ok forget about it, adding the link actually fixes the problem [11:56] Chipaca, is that right ? [11:57] ogra_- so my problem is fixed, but if there is further investigation you want to make, I am happy to help [11:57] well, snappy should have created the link at package install time [11:57] at least on a recent image [11:58] Chipaca, ok.. thanks! I will do it [12:06] ogra_: i'm not sure we have the link on stable, let me check [12:06] ogra_: s/stable/15.04/ [12:06] i thought it was a requirement for the last release [12:07] yeah, 15.04 [12:09] :| when i ssh -p 8022 ubuntu@localhost WARNING: REMOTE HOST IDENTIFICATION HAS CHANGED! IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE IS DOING SOMETHING NASTY! [12:09] Someone could be eavesdropping on you right now (man-in-the-middle attack)! [12:09] It is also possible that a host key has just been changed. [12:12] ogra :( sudo snappy install curl.tetor [12:12] Installing curl.tetor [12:12] curl failed to install: Get https://public.apps.ubuntu.com/anon/download/tetor/curl.tetor/curl.tetor_0.1.10_amd64.snap: dial tcp: lookup public.apps.ubuntu.com: No address associated with hostname [12:13] are you online at all ? [12:13] doesnt look like it [12:14] hm.. right i'm offline but why [12:15] or am i? snappy search returns searches [12:16] Guest552342: wrt the 'remote host identification' warning, i have this in my ~/.ssh/config: [12:16] Guest552342: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/13501861/ [12:17] Guest552342: that avoids the warning, and makes “ssh kvm.snappy” work [12:17] thanks Chipaca :D i'll add that [12:26] Chipaca, hmm, does snappy confi havwe a concept of existing but disabled config options ... i.e. similar to commented out options in config files like "# myvar = 'change to your liking'" [12:27] :'( so the search works but i can't install snaps. the search requires internet, right? [12:28] * ogra_ isnt sure, it might for the first search but might cache subsequent ones [12:30] Chipaca, after I install the new software, I find that the "apps" directory in the home does not exist [12:31] Chipaca, where does the directory go? [12:34] ogra_: not really, why? [12:34] Chipaca, well, i just notice that many config files have this so you save the admin from having to read through docs [12:34] liuxg: it goes nowhere; apps create it as needed [12:35] ogra_, out of the blue i managed to install hello-world o_O. do you know if webdm is preinstalled? [12:35] depends [12:35] it is in the official images [12:35] Guest552342: what error do you get when you try to install? [12:35] webdm failed to install: the given snap is already installed [12:35] it wont be preinstalled if you use ubuntu-device-flash without the --install option for a self built image [12:36] snappy list [12:36] ;) [12:36] i am using wget http://releases.ubuntu.com/15.04/ubuntu-15.04-snappy-amd64-generic.img.xz and running the image in kvm [12:37] sudo snappy install curl.tetor [12:37] Installing curl.tetor [12:37] curl failed to install: snappy package not found [12:38] try without the suffix [12:38] without tetor? [12:38] yep [12:38] curl is the prefix right? :D [12:38] ok :d [12:38] same [12:39] Installing system-status.victor - ok (worked) [12:39] hmm, weird [12:40] Chipaca, you are right. I have to run the app once to get the directory. for example, I want to install sth in the docker. I need to know its path. [12:40] Installing snake.mectors - ok. so i do have internet connection :D and i can install stuff but not all the snaps work [12:41] Chipaca, by the way, last time, you said that you got a way to compile for armhf on device. do you have the detailed instruction for it? [12:41] Chipaca, if yes, I would like to blog it :) [12:41] Guest552342, do you see it in a "snappy search *" call ? [12:42] curl.tetotr? [12:42] yes [12:42] yep, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/13501969/ [12:43] curl.tetor 0.1.10 cURL [12:43] very weird, then it should definitely be installable ... [12:43] i wonder if there is an issue with the store [12:43] beuno, ^^^ ? [12:43] mvo, sudo snappy install ubuntu-classic.mvo [12:43] Installing ubuntu-classic.mvo [12:43] ubuntu-classic failed to install: snappy package not found [12:44] hi! [12:44] Guest552342, yeah, i get the same when trying on an amd64 stable image here [12:45] so it's popey 's fault [12:45] can you find it by searching? [12:45] noh [12:45] obviously [12:45] though my snappy search also only returns one single package [12:45] (amd64)ogra@aleph2:~$ snappy search * [12:45] Name Version Summary [12:45] transmission.matiasb 2.84.2 Transmission [12:45] thats all i get here [12:45] so that's why [12:45] lets try and figure out what's getting filtered out [12:45] beuno, well, for me, but Guest552342 has a proper search output [12:46] see the pastebin above [12:46] matiasb, hi! would channels be doing this? ^ [12:46] ah, i'm on an "edge" 15.04 image here [12:46] ah [12:47] which is identical with the release [12:47] so the system is just looking at the edge channel by default [12:47] just not from the stable channeöl [12:47] i'm on release [12:47] this is new behavior ogra_ [12:47] beuno, right, edge channel is empty atm [12:47] right, so that explains the difference [12:47] yes [12:47] I published transmission after the rollout yesterday [12:47] but doesnt explain why Guest552342 cant install the packages [12:47] so now back to Guest552342's problem [12:48] we'd need a bit more debug information [12:48] * matiasb reads backlog [12:48] maybe mvo, sergiusens or Chipaca can help [12:48] i can type stuff in that black window if you tell me what :d [12:49] beuno: matiasb: a heads-up to the mailing list would've been nice [12:49] beuno, so is there a chance that we can make the stable snaps available to all edge channels if they dont have an "edge" equivalent ? [12:49] thats pretty limiting otherwise [12:50] (i tend to do development on an edge image, now i cant download any snaps ) [12:50] ogra_, yes, just need to ship the edge image that defaults to stable channel for everything except the things you want on edge [12:50] * Guest552342 brb. smoke [12:50] also, developers will be able to publish to edge soon [12:50] yeah, i saw the option in the web UI [12:50] Chipaca, sorry about that, we've been coordinating with mvo instead [12:51] but it would make sense to have edge packages of stable packages where devs didnt explicitly pick to publish in edge [12:51] that was the original proposal for channels [12:51] maybe we'll circle back to that [12:52] but the reality is I think the edge image should just pick the OS & Kernel from the edge channel [12:52] and default to stable for everything else [12:52] i dont care abnout os and kernel [12:52] yeah :) [12:52] right :) [12:52] * ogra_ sighs ... another 300 mails to read [12:53] off for a week and i return to 1200 mails in my inbox :( [12:55] liuxg: wrt the directory, i don't understand what you want/need/mean [12:56] Chipaca, any idea why Guest552342 would get back a search result and then not be able to install? [12:56] beuno: i don't know the error message he was getting [12:57] ogra_: btw, install $pkg/stable works [12:58] (amd64)ogra@aleph2:~$ sudo snappy install ubuntu-classic.mvo/stable [12:58] Installing ubuntu-classic.mvo/stable [12:58] ubuntu-classic failed to install: snappy package not found [12:58] not even if i drop mvo [12:58] i suspect that's been unpublished [12:58] check with mvo [12:58] ogra_: You can have my inbox if you like I had 750 I only had one day off :) [12:59] davmor2, well, you dont want to knwo about the subfolders :P [13:00] ogra_: oh you mean in you inbox minus the subfolders [13:00] yep :) [13:00] ogra_: maybe you should break so much then people wouldn't have to blame you [13:00] (amd64)ogra@aleph2:~$ sudo snappy install curl.tetor/stable [13:00] Installing curl.tetor/stable [13:00] ...curl 2015-11-25 0.1.10 tetor [13:00] seems to work ! [13:00] Guest552342, ^^^ [13:01] Chipaca, ogra_, fwiw, checking in the store ubuntu-classic is still review pending, but ubuntu-classic-armhf is published [13:01] Chipaca, I need to install a container inside the docker. without knowing it first, I do not know where to install. Anyway, after I run "docker version" once, it creates the directory for me. [13:01] matiasb, yep ... [13:01] liuxg: what do you mean "where to install"? [13:01] seesm to work with another package [13:02] Chipaca, I can only install container inside sth like apps/docker/1.6.2.004/ [13:02] liuxg: i don't understand [13:03] Chipaca, the path apps/docker/1.6.2.004/ belongs to docker, and we cannot install a container in any other places. [13:03] Chipaca, if it were unpublished, it wouldnt show up in search results? [13:04] liuxg: what you said is true. I still don't understand the problem you're having. [13:05] liuxg, install the owncloud snap and take a deep look at the start script it ships [13:05] that should show you how to properly use docker [13:05] Chipaca, if I do not run docker once, the path is not created, so should I create it manually? [13:05] (i dont think it should use anything out of /var/lib/apps/docker...../ ) [13:06] ogra_, thanks! the app path is only created when it runs once. [13:09] liuxg: why do _you_ need to know that path? [13:09] Hi everyone. This is probably my first use of IRC, please excuse me if I've do something wrong here. I have a question... [13:09] ogra_, yep sudo snappy install curl.tetor/stable works :D [13:09] i had no idea i have to add /stable [13:09] Guest552342, nobody had [13:09] :)) [13:09] * ogra_ blames beuno [13:09] Guest552342, it's new :) [13:09] :P [13:09] channels go introduced yesterday [13:09] Guest552342: you shouldn't; it's a bug [13:10] oh :D [13:10] beuno, FAVO "introduced" [13:10] *FSVO [13:10] Guest552342, are you using the edge image? [13:10] he uses stable [13:10] ok [13:10] I have flashed the new stable bbb image (15.04) to my BeagleBoneBlack using SD card. I can boot it, I can ssh into it from LAN, but the image cannot see the internet. 'snappy list -u' fails. [13:10] from releases.u.c [13:10] yep stable [13:10] so there's a bug indeed [13:10] we'll figure out where [13:11] matiasb, am I correct that if no channel is passed, you should get back stable? [13:11] it seems true for search [13:11] maybe not true for package API calls? [13:11] beuno, how do you figure out on which channel i am btw ? ... [13:11] system-image will be gone soon [13:11] ogra_, not sure what the CLI exposes [13:11] What can I do to debug this problem? [13:11] beuno, correct, CPI always assumes stable when no channel is specified [13:11] matiasb, seems true for search, but doesn't seem true for installing a package [13:12] beuno, well, the only place i know is system-image-cli -i ... but that will be gone as soon as we swithc to all-snaps [13:12] right [13:12] ogra_, we'll have to find a place for it in the snappy CLI [13:12] right [13:13] beuno, hmm... installing a package shouldn't need a channel per-se, you get the package from a upload version URL; otoh, CPI package details, also assumes stable by default [13:13] k [13:13] we'll have to figure out what's going on then [13:13] why search is fine but install isn't [13:14] otp with the people who can find out [13:14] Guest552342: can you check whether it now works *without* /stable? [13:14] so will wait for that to be over :) [13:15] ack, I can check if there is some code I can take a look at to review the involved API calls; in my head, nothing should have changed for stable installs [13:15] beuno, matiasb sorry if this is noise, but isn't snappy 16.04 using edge as default channel? [13:15] Chipaca, yep :d works now whothout /stable [13:15] yay [13:16] nice [13:16] nessita, it depends what image you download [13:16] Chipaca, why would it have worked the second time? [13:16] Guest552342: so either you're having intermittent network issues, or we're having intermittent server issues [13:16] i hope beuno would know if the latter were the case ;-) [13:17] Chipaca, we should try and have the client expose that a bit better [13:17]