[00:01] <TJ-> still not solved it. "Attempt to kill init!"
[00:03]  * daftykins switches the track to Queen - Another One Bites the Dust
[00:03] <daftykins> i usually reserve that one for dead disks i diagnose ;)
[00:34] <daftykins> trouble approaches...
[00:39] <berwyn> Hi everyone 'in' this room. Also, I am a 'new' Linux Mint. But I do have a question about/on PlayDeb, the unofficial Ubuntu games website. My question is: Are the games from PlayDeb safe? Or....Is it safe to download games from the PlayDeb website? Thanks.  :)
[00:39] <berwyn> *user
[00:41] <daftykins> so you were bs-ing us all along in #ubuntu - well i'll tell you what i'd tell you there, we don't support Mint.
[00:41] <daftykins> !mint
[00:43] <SeriouslyLaugh> yeah, god forbid we help any new linux users.
[00:44] <OerHeks> maybe the downloads are safe, and games may not.
[00:44] <OerHeks> it is a trusted way, but no guarantees.
[00:44] <daftykins> SeriouslyLaugh: there's another channel to go talk about it in, so i see no problem... Mint has its' own issues and is best dealt with by people that run it themselves.
[00:46] <Welshman> daftykins + ubot5: Thanks. Also, yes, I know about #linuxmint-chat and -help. But was encouraged by cryptodan in/on #linuxmint-chat to ask in an #ubuntu channel/room. Also, my question is about the PlayDeb website which is listed on Ubuntu website! So, if you do not mind, I will wait for a few minutes to see if someone answers/replies to my question!! Thanks again. :)
[00:49] <SeriouslyLaugh> Welshman you might have better success asking in ##linux -- but don't mention the distribution you use. the cool kids frown upon mint.
[00:51] <daftykins> that guys on Mint... interesting
[00:52] <Welshman> SeriouslyLaugh: Thanks for your reply. But as I have mentioned/said already I was encouraged by another person to ask my question in an #ubuntu channel/room. So....I will wait for a few minutes! Thanks again. :)
[00:52] <SeriouslyLaugh> but it's not really an ubuntu question
[00:52] <SeriouslyLaugh> just saying
[00:53] <SeriouslyLaugh> though it does say "caters to the Ubuntu gamer"
[00:54] <SeriouslyLaugh> meh
[00:54] <SeriouslyLaugh> semantics
[00:58] <Welshman> SeriouslyLaugh: Sorry to disturb but have a question to ask you. My question is: If I cannot ask that question here in this channel/room and I cannot ask it in the 'other' channel/room then how am I going to get the answer? Seems a bit unfair! :(
[00:58] <SeriouslyLaugh> you asked in two rooms. there are literally thousands on freenode
[00:58] <daftykins> shockingly, on freenode you find channels appropriate to a topic.
[00:58] <daftykins> !alis
[00:59] <daftykins> this website you speak of may even have details of an IRC channel + network for itself.
[00:59] <SeriouslyLaugh> literally the top populated room on freenode is called ##linux and is for all linux discussion one would presume
[01:04] <Welshman> SeriouslyLaugh: Okay, thanks. Suppose I should try ##linux seems that I am not welcomed here to ask my/that question. So, I bid you a goodnight - it's 1.04am here - and all the best! :)
[01:05] <daftykins> weird you repeat the same format with all statements
[01:06] <SeriouslyLaugh> maybe he's a really advanced bot
[01:06] <Welshman> daftykins + ubot5: You might be pleased to know that I am going to try to enter ##linux as suggested by SeriouslyLaugh. So, goodnight + all the best to both of you!!
[01:06] <daftykins> you'd know, you joined in all the channels at the same time the trolls started :)
[01:07] <SeriouslyLaugh> pay no mind to the man behind the curtain!
[01:11]  * OerHeks is playing So Lonely - The Police [ft. More Alone]
[02:01] <daftykins> yep troll season is in full swing :(
[02:02] <SeriouslyLaugh> they keep feeding it.
[02:03] <daftykins> you're part of it as far as i'm concerned
[02:03] <SeriouslyLaugh> :|
[02:04] <SeriouslyLaugh> apologies if it seems that way -- i'm still learning the tone of the channel
[02:06] <daftykins> don't fight the rules and you'll do well; what you've been trying to challenge so far has made you look like common trolls
[02:06] <SeriouslyLaugh> got it
[02:18] <lotuspsychje> good morning to all
[02:18] <daftykins> \o
[02:19] <daftykins> troll season is in full swing, lotuspsychje - be warned!
[02:19] <lotuspsychje> hey daftykins
[02:19] <lotuspsychje> oh-oh
[02:19] <lotuspsychje> lets calm them down :p
[02:23] <SeriouslyLaugh> !ppa | SeriouslyLaugh this is just a test to see if the bot is active in this channel too
[02:23] <SeriouslyLaugh> apologies
[02:24] <lotuspsychje> !msgthebot | SeriouslyLaugh
[02:24] <SeriouslyLaugh> ty lotuspsychje
[02:26] <lotuspsychje> http://news.softpedia.com/news/black-lab-software-announces-linux-based-mac-mini-competitor-black-lab-briq-v5-496665.shtml
[02:27] <daftykins> lotuspsychje: see plenty more AMD graphics cards have just been moved to legacy status now?
[02:28] <lotuspsychje> daftykins: no?
[02:29] <daftykins> HD 5000 and HD6000, plus some earlier HD7xxx are now legacy
[02:29] <daftykins> and pre-kaveri AMD APUs too
[02:29] <lotuspsychje> nice
[02:30] <lotuspsychje> daftykins: if i understand correctly new amdgpu driver will only allow new cards
[02:31] <lotuspsychje> and older drivers keeping seperated
[02:31] <daftykins> probably echo the above yeah and support GCN cards only
[02:32] <OerHeks> AMD is saying that the performance in some Linux games will increase by at least 112%.
[02:32] <lotuspsychje> wow
[02:32] <OerHeks> http://news.softpedia.com/news/radeon-crimson-driver-to-bring-linux-performance-improvements-of-over-100-496617.shtml
[02:32] <daftykins> glxgears here we come ;)
[02:32] <lotuspsychje> back to the graphics battle lol
[02:35] <lotuspsychje> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=phoronix_news
[02:35] <lotuspsychje> alot of crimson news ontop OerHeks
[02:49] <lotuspsychje> daftykins, OerHeks the devel guys told me nvidia-current is already dead, and will be removed after the 304 driver is gone
[02:49] <lotuspsychje> so no nvidia-current for users anymore
[02:49] <lotuspsychje> the additional drivers section takes now care of the driver for users
[02:49] <daftykins> well that package i haven't advise to use for several years
[02:49] <daftykins> *advised
[02:50] <lotuspsychje> great
[03:06] <SeriouslyLaugh> daftykins for the record, you are right
[03:07] <SeriouslyLaugh> re: the topic in the support channel
[03:07] <daftykins> thanks
[03:07] <daftykins> i mean, i could understand if we were talking about someone who uses shared internet connections a lot... or doesn't use a router but connects direct...
[03:07] <daftykins> but it's 100% apparent there's no understanding of the concept there
[03:08] <SeriouslyLaugh> right
[03:08] <lotuspsychje> the whonix page shows net.ipv4.tcp_timestamps = 0 ? not icmp
[03:08] <SeriouslyLaugh> literally FUD, and she even used that term
[03:08] <daftykins> my brain tends to go off whenever i see something involving 'privacy' or TOR
[03:09] <SeriouslyLaugh> spidey senses
[03:11] <SeriouslyLaugh> though, i use a vpn
[03:11] <SeriouslyLaugh> because some irc servers don't properly cloak
[03:12] <daftykins> well this one has been around for over a week, so the crazy is firmly evident
[06:31] <daftykins> OerHeks: all we need is, radio ga ga~
[09:27] <lotuspsychje> morning TJ- and cfhowlett
[09:27] <cfhowlett> lotuspsychje, hey there
[09:28] <lotuspsychje> http://news.softpedia.com/news/ubuntu-16-04-lts-xenial-xerus-will-be-powered-by-linux-kernel-4-4-lts-496675.shtml
[09:29] <lotuspsychje> http://news.softpedia.com/news/gnu-org-website-says-microsoft-s-software-is-malware-496689.shtml
[09:29] <lotuspsychje> lol
[09:30] <cfhowlett> again.
[09:34] <TJ-> hallo :)
[09:35] <TJ-> oh what it is to ride this kernel train tonight... especially when the darned thing doesn't like the CPU :)
[09:37] <cfhowlett> ride the kernel train tonight?  that's a motown sound!
[09:38] <TJ-> uhuh :)
[09:40] <TJ-> I'm building plopkexec to fit on a 1.44 FD,  but no matter what compiler options I set, it throws an error if executed on the real mobo (VIA C3 Samuel 2) and in a Qemu Guest if arch isn't set to pentium2 despite my building with gcc -march=c3 or -march=486. Can't figure it out
[09:41] <lotuspsychje> what kind of error TJ-
[09:43] <TJ-> kernel panic, init killed. As in the /init from plop dies. I suspect due to it trying to use an opcode that doesn't exist on the CPU, and the fact I can reproduce it in a VM Guest seems to confirm that, but as I say, despite my setting the specific compiler machine arch to use, the condition remains
[09:45] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: foudn a thread, not sure if it will help: http://reboot.pro/topic/20524-grub4dos-via-kexec-plopkexec-specifically/
[09:46] <lotuspsychje> morning EriC^^
[09:47] <TJ-> as in https://iam.tj/projects/misc/plopkexec.jpg
[09:47] <TJ-> that's with a pentium CPU: "qemu-system-x86_64 -m 512 -cpu pentium -drive if=floppy,format=raw,file=floppy.img"
[09:49] <lotuspsychje> not many hits on plopexec on google :p
[09:49] <TJ-> And this is with "-cpu pentium2" https://iam.tj/projects/misc/plopkexec.good.jpg
[09:50] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: tested other kernels?
[09:50] <TJ-> so the issue is obviously a compiler flags issues; I'm building with gcc options "-march=c3 -m32" (c3 is the specific Via C3 CPU on the target, but obviously the Qemu guest also fails so something appears to be including non C3 code
[09:51] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: I'm building the kernel itself; it's build target is the Via C3 too
[09:51] <TJ-> kernel is going fine, it's the /init exectuable build that has this issue
[09:51] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: how about this: https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/qemu-devel/2007-10/msg00442.html
[09:52] <lotuspsychje> or this:  0
[09:52] <lotuspsychje> down vote
[09:52] <lotuspsychje> 	
[09:52] <lotuspsychje> I found the fix with the help of this thread. I had to enable CONFIG_AEABI in my kernel.
[09:56] <lotuspsychje> https://balau82.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/compiling-linux-kernel-for-qemu-arm-emulator/
[09:56] <TJ-> the kernel is working fine, it's the plop /init exectuable throwing the panic
[10:04] <lotuspsychje> cant find nothing much on plop
[10:05] <TJ-> I've just captured the kernel dmesg over a serial console from the VM: https://iam.tj/projects/misc/plopkexec.log
[10:05] <lotuspsychje> lets c
[10:06] <TJ-> I'll do another with the 'pentium2' set as the CPU
[10:07] <TJ-> here: https://iam.tj/projects/misc/plopkexec.pentium.log -  you'll see it actually runs the plop /init over the serial console :)
[10:08] <TJ-> I wonder if this is another of those weird gcc 5 issues
[10:09] <lotuspsychje> not sure on this
[10:24] <TJ-> I've installed the 4.9 gcc libraries and building with that, see if it makes a difference
[10:26] <TJ-> that futurama140 seems to be hell-bent on destroying their system. no idea what that 'wibom' is, but can't see it in the archives
[10:40] <lotuspsychje> never seen it either
[10:43] <TJ-> oh, I think I've figured it out! The Ubuntu 32-bit GCC libaries are all built for i686, so when they're linked into this exectuable they bring pentium2 (i686) instructions
[10:44] <TJ-> bugger!
[10:44] <TJ-> So, basically, I'm going to have to go back to Ubuntu 5.10 or so to get the libraries that were built for i386
[10:47] <lotuspsychje> oh i see
[10:47] <cfhowlett> 5.10?  errrrrrrrrrr .....
[10:47] <lotuspsychje> lol
[10:47] <lotuspsychje> !5.10
[10:48] <lotuspsychje> yayyyy
[10:48] <cfhowlett> so ... just a BIT dated ...
[10:48] <lotuspsychje> security bomb :p
[10:49] <lotuspsychje> JT- hahaa
[10:54] <EriC^^> morning lotuspsychje
[10:54] <lotuspsychje> hey EriC^^ :p
[10:55] <TJ-> Well, I'll find the last build that supported the i586/pentium class CPUs; the target CPU cannot support the cmov instruction that the pentium2/i686 introduced
[10:56] <TJ-> Better using those prebuilt binaries that trying to build the entire current standard library for i586 - that's take ages, and doesn't help since the target CPUb/mobo has to be able to install and run many packages :)
[11:03] <EriC^^> lotuspsychje: Danco in #ubuntu
[11:05] <EriC^^> 800 computers
[11:05] <lotuspsychje> oO
[11:05] <EriC^^> wonder where he got them from
[11:05] <lotuspsychje> lets find out :p
[11:05] <EriC^^> :D
[11:05] <lotuspsychje> EriC^^: tnx for the highlight
[11:05] <lotuspsychje> Danco: welcome mate
[11:06] <lotuspsychje> Danco: can you tell us more about your project?
[11:08] <lotuspsychje> Danco: gonna start own ubuntu store?
[11:08] <Danco> We basically got a batch of 700-800 computers from colleges and schools that were put out of commission. The previous licensing was done through a Windows server, so we cannot supply with Windows. To have our buyers be able to use the computers they'd at least need something to work with.
[11:09] <lotuspsychje> nice
[11:09] <lotuspsychje> and you will sell them machines with ubuntu on Danco
[11:10] <Danco> Preferably yes, we got one machine pre installed with the OEM installation, which would then get imaged to our FOG server, which will then upload and install a batch of 50 computers at the same time.
[11:11] <lotuspsychje> Danco: im starting an own store next years, thats why im interested
[11:11] <Danco> But the price for a computer with or without Ubuntu would be the same.
[11:11] <Danco> I see :)
[11:11] <lotuspsychje> no
[11:11] <lotuspsychje> ubuntu makes it cheaper right
[11:11] <lotuspsychje> -100 euro for windows
[11:12] <lotuspsychje> and ill order barebones to put own hardware inside
[11:12] <lotuspsychje> Danco: no payed ms office lisence, no antivirus
[11:14] <Danco> Exactly, but I cannot get on with it unless I get permission from Canonical
[11:14] <lotuspsychje> Danco: yeah, you need to be confirmed
[11:15] <lotuspsychje> Danco: check the disclaimer here at bottom 3 lines: https://system76.com/disclaimer
[11:16] <lotuspsychje> Danco: you site will need it also, to sell them legit
[11:16] <Danco> Ah, as long as we would put that in after confirmation we would be able to sell them?
[11:16] <lotuspsychje> Danco: i think it wont be more complicated then that
[11:17] <Danco> I'll just be patient then. Thank you kindly :)
[11:17] <lotuspsychje> Danco: just to avoid users thinking, you invented ubuntu on the machines you sell
[11:17] <Danco> Ah fair enough, that's understandable. So there shouldn't be a fee towards us for batch supplying?
[11:18] <lotuspsychje> Danco:i dont think so, as ubuntu is opensource
[11:18] <lotuspsychje> Danco: if you want canonical support, thats another business
[11:19] <Danco> Fair enough, I got falsely informed. We wouldn't need support, I just want to cover my own behind if you know what I mean.
[11:19] <lotuspsychje> Danco: sure, but make sure you wait for the canonical reply
[11:20] <Danco> Will definitely do that! Thank you :)
[11:20] <lotuspsychje> Danco: oem brands like the new phones and such bq,meizu will need to pay fee to canonical
[11:22] <Danco> But that's due to it being completely being based on their source code isn't it?
[11:23] <lotuspsychje> Danco: yeah and updates support and such
[11:23] <Danco> So you are the owner of system76?
[11:24] <lotuspsychje> Danco: no, im gonna run own store bit like system76
[11:24] <Danco> Ah fair enough :) I wish you the best of luck in the future!
[11:24] <lotuspsychje> Danco: with phones,tablets,laptops and desktops
[11:24] <lotuspsychje> Danco: all ubuntu + ssd
[11:24] <lotuspsychje> Danco: tnx
[11:26] <Danco> Webbased?
[11:26] <lotuspsychje> Danco: you mean online shop also?
[11:26] <Danco> I meant purily online.
[11:26] <lotuspsychje> ah no
[11:26] <lotuspsychje> own store from home also +repair +security advise
[11:27] <lotuspsychje> Danco: i will also tweak ubuntu before sending to customer
[11:28] <lotuspsychje> Danco: you know a spanish school did the same thing as you, whole schools network on ubuntu
[11:28] <lotuspsychje> Danco: maybe look that up, might be relevant
[11:29] <lotuspsychje> germany governement changed to ubuntu also
[11:29] <Danco> Afraid we already sold all the computers, next batch might be able to go back in a network.
[11:30] <lotuspsychje> Danco: your customer will send the to individuals or use for network?
[11:31] <Danco> We are not quite sure, they are a big chain that buys and resells any product range.
[11:31] <lotuspsychje> ok
[11:32] <lotuspsychje> Danco: whats the brand of the machines?
[11:33] <Danco> Just standard HP's with brackets and monitors included
[11:33] <lotuspsychje> nice :p
[11:33] <lotuspsychje> hp will do fine with ubuntu
[11:33] <lotuspsychje> good linux support
[11:34] <Danco> Runs quite smooth altogether. But I'll get back to work, thank you again for informing me, and again, I wish you the best of luck!
[11:34] <lotuspsychje> Danco: laters!
[12:35] <BluesKaj> Hey all
[12:38] <pauljw> morning BluesKaj
[12:38] <BluesKaj> 'Morning pauljw
[12:38] <pauljw> :)
[13:36] <pauljw> wb
[15:54] <mcphail> Has the Amazon Search function generated enough income to justify the loss of faith in the privacy and security of data on Ubuntu?
[15:56] <TJ-> money doesn't justify prostitution :)
[15:56] <SeriouslyLaugh> all it did was prove that everyone has a price
[15:57] <mcphail> Sad to see users opting for arch over Ubuntu because of this
[15:57] <TJ-> a few maybe, most rational actors who don't like it simply disable/uninstall it
[15:58] <SeriouslyLaugh> it's the equivilant of when an installer tries to sneak in a weather bug or coupon app
[15:59] <TJ-> I think the biggest objection to it was that it was opt-out, not opt-in, and *hard* to opt-out originally
[15:59] <mcphail> Yes, the reputational damage exceeds the actual insult
[15:59] <TJ-> And most people knew the reason for it being opt-in is that Canonical wanted inertia to mean most users would leave it as-is
[16:00] <mcphail> It has been depressing to see mozilla taking the same approach
[16:01] <TJ-> If they'd been up-front and said: "Look, Canonical needs some return on the huge investment Shuttleworth has put in to get this far, can we enable this Amazon search addition because if you buy from them we'll get a commission" I think most people would have readily supported it
[16:01] <TJ-> This is the problem with the 'free-beer' mentality; users get a sense of entitlement ... want everything for nothing
[16:02] <TJ-> Funny thing is those same users, in the my experience, have no problem being Google's or Facebook's Product
[16:03] <mcphail> Neither Google nor Facebook get root access to your life archive, though. The bar has to be set higher for an OS
[16:05] <mcphail> And mozilla ere downright duplicitous, in my opinion. Google and Facebook were always honest about their plans
[16:06] <TJ-> Errr, Facebook 'knows' a lot more about its users than their own PCs do
[16:06] <SeriouslyLaugh> personally, i'm less concerned with the privacy issue
[16:07] <SeriouslyLaugh> just the bloatware sucks. the concept of it.
[16:07] <SeriouslyLaugh> feels like it cheapens the product
[16:07] <SeriouslyLaugh> regardless of how actually bloated it may or may not be
[16:07] <SeriouslyLaugh> just seeing the little icon there is a reminder that everyone has a price
[16:20] <TJ-> Well... finally.. I've identified the last build of gcc that supported the i586: 10.04 Lucid
[21:39] <TJ-> finally! 24+ hours later, I have plopkexec booting correctly on an i586 class CPU
[21:41] <daftykins> TJ-: :D
[21:42] <daftykins> TJ-: looks like i'll be selling that HTC shortly and sending it up to England, so if you needing anything else... :)
[21:49] <TJ-> haha! No, I've got that underway as well, now I understand what it needs
[21:51] <daftykins> cool :)
[21:52] <daftykins> decided it's worth about £150, but not mine to sell so no profit to me!
[21:52] <TJ-> Basically, I need to build a placebo package that provides the classes/services that are part of the Sense framework
[21:52] <TJ-> that's a bit of depreciation :O
[21:54] <daftykins> i just went by what ebay and amazon have listed
[22:00] <TJ-> yeah, electronic devices are like vehicles. As soon as they arrive they lose 15% value
[22:04] <daftykins> :)
[22:04] <TJ-> did you see my mention earlier about the 20 year old bug I hit that is in every package every built by Debian, Ubuntu and all other deried distros?
[22:04] <daftykins> i did not :O
[22:05] <daftykins> still waiting (im)patiently for that Nexus 5 screen to show up :)
[22:05] <TJ-> I've been having 'fun' trying to get a 10.04 chroot installed using debootstrap (that is the last version that built gcc with i585 support).
[22:06] <TJ-> The debootstrap kept failing when it tried to "mount -t proc proc /proc" in the chroot, telling me the EUID was 1000, not 0.
[22:07] <daftykins> hehe
[22:08] <TJ-> after a lot of digging I found out the reason was that when debootstrap fetches the .deb packages, and extracts them manually with 'tar', the ownership info stored in the 'tar' is named-based e.g. "root:root" rather than ID based (0:0). So on a system - like mine - where root != 0 tar does a query of the passwd file to get the UID, and gets 1000 not 0, and installs files with that ownership
[22:09] <TJ-> (1000:1000). Now, '/bin/mount' is an setuid binary, so when executed the kernel sets its Effective UID as 1000, and mount checks with geteuid() and bails out complaining
[22:09] <TJ-> this is due to every package being created with using the tar '--numeric-owner' option, so it stores "root:root" not "0:0" as the owner.
[22:10] <TJ-> that's done by the core dpkg-deb/dpkg-buildpackage tooling, that's been around since Debian started
[22:28] <EriC^^> TJ-: a user gets a grub shell after choosing his os in grub
[22:28] <EriC^^> if he types configfile (hd0,gpt5)/boot/grub/grub.cfg it boots
[22:28] <EriC^^> grub shows the $root as (hd0,gpt2) , which is actually the efi partition
[22:29] <EriC^^> /boot/efi/EFI/grub/grub.cfg shows search.fs_uuid e534f420-36db-491c-8db8-dc5b770db499 root hd1,gpt5
[22:29] <EriC^^> *hd1
[22:29] <EriC^^> what do you think it could be?
[22:31] <TJ-> EriC^^: sounds like "grub-install" has written the wrong root value into the core.img (grubx64.efi), and needs re-doing
[22:31] <EriC^^> we just chrooted and ran grub-install and update-grub
[22:32] <TJ-> with an /EFI/grub/grub.cfg in place? That might trigger it setting the core root=hd0,gpt2
[22:33] <TJ-> try moving that file out (don't delete it yet) so GRUB won't find it in the EFI-SP, then re-do the grub-install
[22:33] <EriC^^> TJ-: he says $prefix shows (hd0,gpt2)/EFI/ubuntu
[22:34] <EriC^^> how odd is that?
[22:34] <TJ-> remember that GRUB set's root= to the file-system that contains its grub.cfg, so if it finds one in the EFI-SP, it may well use that instead of the 'real' one in the GRUB /boot/grub/ location
[22:34] <EriC^^> he doesn't even have an ubuntu dir, he has /EFI/grub
[22:38] <TJ-> Not an Ubuntu install then, or a manual install
[22:39] <EriC^^> elementary os
[22:40] <TJ-> Yes, he tried getting help in #ubuntu earlier
[22:40] <daftykins> friggin' elementary, my dear Watson
[22:41] <EriC^^> lol daftykins