[00:00] <daftykins> in she goes - with 10 mins on the clock
[00:00] <TJ-> :) right on midnight too
[00:01] <TJ-> so technically been in there a day already :d
[00:15] <daftykins> mmm, i don't think anything felt particularly cold
[00:15] <daftykins> definitely fridge and not freezer? :D
[00:15] <daftykins> no change :S
[00:18] <TJ-> could try it longer. The freezer might cause condensation and/or physical stress
[00:22] <daftykins> i think i'll have to call it a night there, i'm fried :)
[00:22] <daftykins> i'll give it its' morning test and see if it spurs into life
[00:22] <TJ-> blimey I'm getting dafter... wondering why this qemu VM guest was running so slow... forgot to add -enable-kvm so it was complete software emulation! I'm so used to using the old /usr/bin/kvm binary that now we only have qemu-system-x86_64 I forget to add the option
[00:23] <daftykins> oops :D
[00:24] <TJ-> oh, and 15.10 does have a simple shell script doing just that at /usr/bin/kvm!
[00:25]  * TJ- decides to run away with Pepper to a deserted islan :)
[00:25] <daftykins> i do like the simple ones :D
[00:25] <Bashing-om> The things one sees in just reading the code !
[00:27] <TJ-> hmmm, and this 14.04.3 i386 image, it offers me a login! I try ubuntu/ubuntu and it tries to log-in and comes back to the greeter
[00:29] <daftykins> o0
[00:32] <TJ-> trying again
[00:32] <TJ-> (ISO MD5 is correct)
[00:33] <daftykins> time for bed then i think!
[00:33] <daftykins> TJ-: thanks again :)
[00:34] <daftykins> many virtual cookies are owed i feel
[00:36] <TJ-> I think I'll keep Pepper in the bedroom tonight in case she decides to open a window !
[00:36] <daftykins> hahaha, a regular Houdini there
[00:39]  * daftykins wishes to all a good night \o
[00:39] <TJ-> night night
[00:40] <Bashing-om> daftykins: Good nite til the next time we meet .
[00:42] <pauljw> gnite daftykins
[01:02] <Bashing-om> TJ-: How big of a bottle do you have to contain all that patience ?
[01:06] <TJ-> ha! I don't, I'm doing other things so I just ignore the 'noise' most of the time
[01:10] <TJ-> I'm escaping to bed whilst the going's good.
[01:13] <Bashing-om> The great escape !
[02:24] <pauljw> gnite all
[02:51] <WEB6BER66> Hi guys!
[02:53] <Bashing-om> WEB6BER66: Got your tine hat on ? to enter here that is the safest .
[03:20] <WEB6BER66> Ubuntu MATE or Linux Mint MATE?
[03:20] <WEB6BER66> And why?
[03:25] <Bashing-om> WEB6BER66: Best is what you make for your own . When you are comfortable then " roll your own " .
[04:12] <lotuspsychje> good morning to all
[04:14] <Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Shift change !
[04:14] <lotuspsychje> hey Bashing-om how was support this night
[04:15] <Bashing-om> slow for the most part .  ya ready to take Dylan____  back ???
[04:15] <lotuspsychje> sure whats he suffering?
[04:16] <WEB6BER66> Ubuntu MATE is an excellent distro!
[04:16] <WEB6BER66> I think it's even better than Linux Mint.
[04:17] <Bashing-om> Boots to a black screen on a Mac . Have re-installed the graphics driver(nvidia)  and have confirmed he does own /home and has authority .
[04:18] <Bashing-om> WEB6BER66: Yep it is a keeper .
[04:18] <lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: you know on wich driver version?
[04:19] <Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Awaiting the results of my last request . see what 'autoinstall' did for him .
[04:20] <WEB6BER66> Bashing-om: Are you familiar with the lead coders behind Ubuntu MATE?
[04:20] <lotuspsychje> WEB6BER66: you can join the #ubuntu-mate channel
[04:22] <Bashing-om> WEB6BER66: No, I never met them dudes and dudetts .
[04:48] <WEB6BER66> Anyone know if Ubuntu MATE is here to stay?
[04:48] <lotuspsychje> ?
[04:51] <WEB6BER66> If it's going to be kept current 10 yrs from now.
[04:51] <lotuspsychje> !lts | WEB6BER66
[04:52] <WEB6BER66> I meant the MATE version.
[04:52] <WEB6BER66> It's a niche flavor.
[04:52] <lotuspsychje> WEB6BER66: you need to read up a little
[04:52] <lotuspsychje> WEB6BER66: mate can be LTS or non-lts also
[04:54] <Bashing-om> nite guys I am out of here , later .
[04:54] <lotuspsychje> nite Bashing-om
[08:01] <lotuspsychje> hey nicomachus
[08:01] <lotuspsychje> add to favs if you like
[08:02] <lotuspsychje> nicomachus: the idea is, we always do support, but never have a chance to talk
[08:02] <lotuspsychje> so here we are :p
[08:02] <nicomachus> heh, I only *attempt* support when I'm truly bored. I still consider myself a linux noob, so I impress myself when I can actually help someone fix something...
[08:03] <lotuspsychje> nicomachus: we all here to learn mate
[08:03] <nicomachus> 90% of the time I go into #ubuntu to get help myself...
[08:03] <lotuspsychje> lol thats the best
[08:03] <lotuspsychje> nicomachus: feel free to dile here
[08:03] <lotuspsychje> idle
[08:04] <lotuspsychje> and welcome
[08:04] <nicomachus> thanks.
[08:05] <lotuspsychje> bbl
[08:38] <QVIKti455> Hello ~~~~~~~~~~~~
[10:02] <lordievader> Good morning.
[12:11] <BluesKaj> Howdy all
[12:36] <MonkeyDust> what's it called again, if you want to use the vivid kernel in trusty?
[12:36] <OerHeks> i call it funny, but it is called HWE
[12:36] <MonkeyDust> !hwe
[12:37] <MonkeyDust> tnx
[12:37] <OerHeks> :-D
[12:37] <MonkeyDust> note to self: backup first!
[12:55] <daftykins> :)
[12:55] <daftykins> afternoon all o/
[12:59] <BluesKaj> hey daftykins
[12:59] <MonkeyDust> there there
[13:00] <MonkeyDust> donald trump wants to ask bill gates to shut down the internet
[13:01] <daftykins> oh dear
[13:04] <MonkeyDust> brb, HWE
[13:04] <BluesKaj>  Donald Trump is merely having fun riding the wave of fear and hatred, spewing anything at all that he thinks will keep the attention on him, and I don't think he beleives he can actually win, hence the behaviour
[13:05] <OerHeks> I think he is a decoy, for Hillary C.
[13:05] <OerHeks> and she'll pay him later, with billions in gov contracts :-D
[13:06] <BluesKaj> seems to be working out that way, OerHeks
[13:08] <MonkeyDust> !hwe
[13:10] <MonkeyDust> let's see
[13:13] <daftykins> shouldn't be too long before the Wily stack is out? then it'll be ubuntu 14.04.4 :)
[13:30] <MonkeyDust> videos go to fullscreen without lag, now... that's one improvement
[13:32] <MonkeyDust> but online reader's comments on news items are still as silly as before
[13:56] <daftykins> MonkeyDust: what's that with, intel on-die graphics?
[13:57] <MonkeyDust> daftykins  i'm not familiar with that
[13:57] <BluesKaj> intel doesn't have pci gpus, only onboards
[13:58] <daftykins> yep, but the older generations were on the motherboard chipset and not on-die
[13:58] <daftykins> so i tend to make the distinction to gauge age, at the same time
[14:08] <daftykins> BluesKaj: do you think since i left it days, a quick dry wipe on that DVD lens would help still, or should i start with the IPA again first?
[14:08] <daftykins> TJ-: afternoon o/
[14:10] <TJ-> hallo
[14:10] <daftykins> TJ-: someone i've had solder work done by before has been recommended for helping with the sub :D hopefully i can get his number
[14:10] <TJ-> Did you manage to freeze that amp? :)
[14:11] <daftykins> hehe, i've not touched it today as it goes... i thought i would pop down there in a minute and make a video of how it behaves on an initial power on... then see if it fails instantly after the first switch to standby
[14:11] <TJ-> Oh, good.
[14:11] <TJ-> yes, that'd be instructive
[14:11] <daftykins> i know a song that reliably engages the sub at the 24 second mark
[14:12] <daftykins> just had that 27" LCD and cheap laptop with the first SSD in it picked up :)
[14:12] <TJ-> it does sound like the auto-detection level is set too high. I wonder if tha variable resistor on the audio PCB controls that?
[14:13] <daftykins> it just varies the strength of the sub that little dial that's on the reverse
[14:14] <daftykins> the AVR of course has a crossover level with a Hz value to set, but it doesn't seem to have any impact
[14:14] <TJ-> No; on the audio PCB there's a minature 'pot' (potentiometer) I did wonder about, but I don't like recommending random adjustments. It would make sense though, since I can't think why the circuit would need a pot otherwise, and vibration could have caused it to alter its position
[14:15] <daftykins> ah was that the little orange topped one which had a philips screw head?
[14:15] <TJ-> it is on the left side as you look at the power transistors
[14:15] <TJ-> Yes
[14:15] <daftykins> ah har
[14:16] <TJ-> if you can mark its current position accurately so as to be able to return to it, you could try rotating that 1mm at a time
[14:16] <daftykins> i got charged about £40 last time to resolder a blown MOSFET on a laptop motherboard via an intermediary company that subcontracted the job to this guy, so hopefully it'd be a cheap one
[14:18] <daftykins> right i think i'll go and make my little video :D
[14:21] <BluesKaj> daftykins, sorry i away for a few mins, usually mist alcohols will completely evaporate in less the 15-30 mins ..so no need to wipe now, unless you had it exposed to ambient air.
[14:30] <daftykins> BluesKaj: no problem :) well i just opened up the drive, swabbed it and then threw it back together and plugged it in
[14:31] <daftykins> TJ-: sub has totally given up now!
[14:32] <daftykins> 56MB video: http://techblo.gg/stuff/subwoofer.mp4
[14:32] <TJ-> any sign of power/stand-by ?
[14:33] <daftykins> yeah the exact 24 second marker in this song i know flicks it on, you can make out the click but no more *thud* of the speaker engaging
[14:35] <TJ-> did the sub activate on initial power-up ?
[14:36] <daftykins> nah, when you flick the standby rocker it just sits idle, so that video shows its' very first attempt of the day
[14:36] <daftykins> pauljw: o/
[14:36] <pauljw> hey daftykins :)
[14:37] <pauljw> everyone..
[14:38] <daftykins> oof nearly 3, i should get lunch on ;)
[14:40]  * OerHeks got attacked by 3 turkey-subs, but won!
[14:40] <daftykins> hahaha
[14:40] <daftykins> is that your mums doing? :)
[14:40] <OerHeks> Drabber wanted to help me too
[14:41] <OerHeks> no, mom is going to come later, sunday diner.
[14:41] <daftykins> ah :D
[14:42] <daftykins> oof yeah my cat Mischief is always sniffing around now when i crack open the bacon :D
[14:52] <lotuspsychje> afternoon to all
[14:53] <TJ-> heya :)
[14:53] <lotuspsychje> hey TJ-
[14:53] <pauljw> hi lotuspsychje , TJ-
[14:53] <lotuspsychje> hey pauljw
[14:53] <lotuspsychje> crowdy sunday support oO
[14:54] <lotuspsychje> hi OerHeks and daftykins
[14:54] <OerHeks> lotus :-D
[14:54]  * TJ- sobs  ... but... but... but... no-one can support me
[14:54] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: your issues are always so complicated :p
[14:54] <daftykins> heya \o
[14:55] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: what are you strugling with this time ... :p
[14:55] <lotuspsychje> derheks lol
[14:56] <TJ-> complicated? no way! It's just the 14.04.3 i386 desktop installer 'Try Ubuntu' always going to a log-in prompt
[14:57] <TJ-> And yes I've confirmed the ISO hash, and done 'check disc'
[14:57] <OerHeks> that happens a lot, lotuspsychje, derheks DerHeks
[14:57] <OerHeks> sounds like an old german tv crime serie
[14:57] <lotuspsychje> hahaha
[14:58] <lotuspsychje> derflick
[14:58] <TJ-> does anyone else have that same ISO and can test it in a VM too?
[14:58] <TJ-> my command-line is:
[14:58] <TJ-> kvm -m 1024 -smp cpus=2 -vga std -drive media=cdrom,file=/mnt/target/var/lib/libvirt/images/iso/ubuntu-14.04.3-desktop-i386.iso -drive media=disk,format=raw,file=/dev/VG_DATA/test -net nic -chardev stdio,id=con
[14:58] <daftykins> TJ-: sure let me grab it, is a comparison to vmware ok?
[14:59] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: i recently installed trusty 32bit on a box and had no issues myself
[15:00] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: but we do have alot of users with loginloops lately
[15:00] <lotuspsychje> mostly grafix issues
[15:00] <TJ-> daftykins: not sure; this could be an issue caused by Qemu. You just need qemu-system-x86 installed to duplicate my usage exactly
[15:01] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: this is a werid one since the desktop live should auto-login to the desktop
[15:01] <daftykins> ok, i can give both a whirl if i grab the sony from downstairs
[15:01] <TJ-> It doesn't, and when I type the username "ubuntu" and press Enter for the password it appears to be trying to log-in then returns to the greeter
[15:02] <TJ-> the VG_DATA/test is just an 8GiB LV, strictly that's not even needed to test this log-in issue
[15:02] <TJ-> the simpliest command line would be
[15:03] <TJ-> kvm -m 1024 -smp cpus=2 -vga std -drive media=cdrom,file=buntu-14.04.3-desktop-i386.iso
[15:03] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: did you install a box with that usb before?
[15:03] <TJ-> well, '=ubuntu-' not '=buntu-' !
[15:03] <daftykins> i think he's virtualising direct from a downloaded ISO on disk
[15:03] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: it isn't a USB, it's the ISO
[15:03] <lotuspsychje> ah
[15:04] <TJ-> I'm not seeing the issue with older ISOs so beginning to suspect a problem in the .3 i386 installer
[15:04] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: was just thinking the usb stick remembers previous login:pass of a previous install
[15:04] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: that's impossible for the live env :)
[15:04] <lotuspsychje> indeed :p
[15:05] <daftykins> TJ-: how important will this be? i'm under the impression 14.04.4 with the wily HWE is around the corner?
[15:05] <TJ-> daftykins: well, if there is a bug, it doesn't want to continue into .4, it needs identifying and fixing
[15:05] <daftykins> i think someone claimed the .4 is in beta right now
[15:06] <TJ-> this might be a regression specific to running of i386 on a 64-bit host
[15:08] <daftykins> 0bc058cdc75fb75d4922c7c74c4cd6b1 my hash, checked out ok from http://releases.ubuntu.com/trusty/
[15:08] <daftykins> booting to 'try' mode with vmware to start with to see
[15:08] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: is this usefull? http://askubuntu.com/questions/103896/live-cd-asks-for-a-username-and-password
[15:09] <TJ-> I'm going to test the current trusty daily as well
[15:09] <daftykins> works in vmware, albeit the shocking resolution :D
[15:10] <TJ-> It could be a qemu issue I suppose, though hard to imagine what would cause a userspace issue like this
[15:10] <daftykins> i'll grab my sony, though i have 32-bit xubuntu on there - would that be a problem?
[15:10] <daftykins> i've never used KVM before
[15:10] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: no, that's just dealing with the symptom but doesn't talk about the cause - the live desktop shouldn't be asking for a login at all
[15:11] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: this french thread mentions also an architecture issue (last post): https://forum.ubuntu-fr.org/viewtopic.php?id=1901321
[15:11] <TJ-> daftykins: kvm is a script that calls qemu-system-x86_64 and uses hardware acceleration by default
[15:12] <daftykins> i'm not sure laptop even has VT
[15:12] <TJ-> daftykins: "kvm-ok"
[15:12] <TJ-> INFO: /dev/kvm exists
[15:13] <TJ-> KVM acceleration can be used
[15:18] <daftykins> it claims the BIOS is blocking - and the BIOS on this Sony doesn't have the option
[15:18] <daftykins> intel core 2 U7600 in there which does support VT-x apparently
[15:18] <daftykins> would software emulation invalidate a test?
[15:19] <TJ-> Right, Sony disable it on many systems. I had to hack the BIOS's NV-RAM for the VGN-FE41Z to enable it
[15:19] <TJ-> it'd make it painfully slow... probably get there about midnight :)
[15:20] <daftykins> XD
[15:20] <lotuspsychje> oops that was for here daftykins
[15:20] <TJ-> I'm inside the guest now, with a console terminal, and it looks suspiciously like Unity failing because there's no accelerated GPU
[15:20] <daftykins> lotuspsychje: yep at last, all paid up and taken it home :) he's asked about a graphics card for the office PC to be able to drive that 27" screen now too
[15:20] <TJ-> If so, that is a MAJOR problem for users wanting to test it
[15:21] <daftykins> TJ-: i wouldn't be surprised if that's what it is, do any lightdm logs give a clue?
[15:21] <lotuspsychje> daftykins: nice
[15:21] <TJ-> in /home/ubuntu/.xsession-errors theres "init: gnome-session (Unity) main process (2379) terminated with status 1"
[15:21] <daftykins> he didn't seem bothered about the 1TB disk, so it's sat in a bag on my spare desk right now
[15:21] <TJ-> looking now
[15:22] <lotuspsychje> maybe lordievader knows some about that kvm issue?
[15:23] <TJ-> there's a /var/log/Xorg.0.log.old ... and it has amongst other (EE) "AIGLX: reverting to software rendering" and "open /dev/dri/card0: No such file or directory"
[15:23] <TJ-> so, it looks like without a simulated hardware accelerated GPU inside the VM, the standard Ubuntu desktop ISO will no longer work
[15:24] <lordievader> lotuspsychje: ?
[15:24] <daftykins> think i found a guide for modifying the BIOS on this model Sony
[15:24] <TJ-> typical Unity crap
[15:24] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: solved?
[15:24] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: not so far, i'm looking at possibly using the spice protocol qith qemu to bring the GPU outside the guest
[15:24] <lotuspsychje> lordievader: TJ- had an issue on trusty 32bit on kvm, asking username/pass
[15:25] <TJ-> daftykins: haha, that guide probably stems from my work
[15:25] <daftykins> TJ-: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/how-to-enable-intel-vt-and-ahci-on-a-napa-santa-rosa-platform-phoenix-bios-vaio-laptop.189228/ :)
[15:25] <daftykins> i would imagine me doing that on this machine would be too much of a distraction from your goal, but i'd happily give it a go
[15:26] <lotuspsychje> lordievader: on the livemode
[15:26] <TJ-> daftykins: it's fine thanks now, I think we've pinpointed the cause
[15:26] <daftykins> *nod*
[15:26] <lordievader> Don't think that has anything to do with KVM itself.
[15:26] <TJ-> daftykins: basically it fails to start the user session but as the screen doesn't flicker at that point its not obvious it tried and failed
[15:26] <lotuspsychje> lordievader: he tested 14.04.2 and running fine
[15:27] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: I'm not sure about that right now, I think I may have done things slightly differently. Don't quote me as yet, because I used libvirt/virt-manager to run the previous ISO and it may have used 'spice'
[15:28] <daftykins> i kinda want to enable VT now just for fun XD
[15:29] <TJ-> daftykins: here's my work on that from 2007: http://tjworld.net/wiki/Sony/Vaio/FE41Z/HackingBiosNvram
[15:29] <daftykins> thanks :)
[15:29] <TJ-> daftykins: it starts as my having copied my original posts in a long thread on a forum, in case it went missing, so there's some implied answers to another user's questions and observations as we swapped experiences
[15:32] <TJ-> daftykins: all you really want is to identify the correct index of the NVRAM variable used in that PC, and use a DOS boot disk and the 'SymCMOS.exe' program to change its value. There are now several sites that list the correct value for many different Sony models. If you tell me the exact model I can probably check if the value exists and is trustable. Best thing to do is show me "dmesg | grep DMI"
[15:32] <TJ-> from the Sony laptop
[15:34] <daftykins> TJ-: VGN-TZ31WN/B - currently on BIOS R0091N7 (can't find any updates)
[15:34] <TJ-> OK, the BIOS version is the thing the Tokens are tied to, so I'll search on that
[15:37] <TJ-> here's the list https://communities.vmware.com/message/1377164#1377164
[15:37] <TJ-> and yours is Token value 0363
[15:38] <daftykins> ooh nifty
[15:38] <daftykins> ok lets see what i can do :)
[15:38] <TJ-> Do you have an (external USB) floppy to boot that PC with, or does it only have CDROM?
[15:39] <daftykins> only CD, though i do have a flash drive with kind of win98 boot files on it that can boot to a DOS style
[15:39] <TJ-> I can send you the symcmos bootable floppy image immediately, but I'd have to build/test a CD image
[15:39] <TJ-> really? OK, let me package just the symcmos stuff for you
[15:40] <daftykins> i'll test if it boots on that machine
[15:41] <daftykins> yep good ol' win98 boot logo then command.com :>
[15:43] <TJ-> 160KB: https://iam.tj/projects/misc/symcmos.tar.bz2
[15:43] <TJ-> as far as I recall you only need symcmos.exe on the floppy
[15:44] <daftykins> ah well, thrown the whole folder on :)
[15:45] <daftykins> yep the .exe works ok on there
[15:46] <TJ-> right. once it has booted the first thing you do is capture to file the current settings by runnin "symcmos -v2 -lmvram.txt
[15:47] <daftykins> yep file written
[15:47] <TJ-> then, you need to move the USB to another system, mount it, clone that file to vt-enable.txt (still in the same directory on the USB) and then text-edit the vt-enable.txt
[15:48] <TJ-> in vt-enable.txt look for that token that represents the VT flags (0363)
[15:48] <TJ-> the value alongside it should currently show 0000; change it to 0001. Save the file, return the USB to the Sony
[15:49] <TJ-> run "symcmos -v2 -uvt-enable.txt"
[15:49] <TJ-> assuming no errors, cold boot the Sony and linux's "kvm-ok" should report  "KVM acceleration can be used"
[15:50] <daftykins> shall follow those steps now :) thanks!
[15:55] <daftykins> TJ-: success :)
[15:57] <daftykins> i'll try a KVM boot of that ISO now just for fun ;)
[15:57] <TJ-> Yay!
[15:58] <TJ-> Figuring those instructions out originally took me 3 weeks of reverse-engineering
[15:58] <daftykins> crikey!
[15:59] <TJ-> But I was so mad at Sony because I'd chosen that model specifically for the CPU having VT, to use VM acceleration, that I wasn't going to be beat :)
[16:00] <daftykins> mmm i find them really stupid for that
[16:00] <daftykins> this model is one of my main clients' old travelling machines
[16:02] <lotuspsychje> bbl movies :p
[16:04] <daftykins> TJ-: to copy your command from earlier i don't have a /dev/VG_DATA/test ; do i need to 'touch' a file in any path to create a blank image to work with?
[16:06] <MonkeyDust> my mind is slow today ... any way to increase speed?
[16:06] <TJ-> no, that's an 8GiB logical volume I created to test install into. You don't even need that, just try booting the image
[16:07] <TJ-> kvm -m 1024 -smp cpus=2 -vga std -drive media=cdrom,file=ubuntu-14.04.3-desktop-i386.iso
[16:08] <daftykins> SDL init error, i take it i need to do this from inside X?
[16:10] <TJ-> hmm, SDL libraries should be available
[16:11] <TJ-> It could be, yes, it's so long since I ran a GUI VM guest from raw console I forget
[16:11] <daftykins> yeah it just can't launch on that PuTTY session :>
[16:12] <daftykins> http://techblo.gg/stuff/kvm.png
[16:12] <daftykins> well what do you know! that's on a 32-bit host
[16:14] <TJ-> Yay, reproduced!
[16:14] <TJ-> Thanks a lot :D
[16:15] <daftykins> ^_^ communal back scratching!
[16:17] <daftykins> glad to help in return for once :D
[17:06] <MonkeyDust> BluesKaj  "Konversation"? are you using kubuntu?
[17:07] <daftykins> busted for KDE use indeed ;)
[17:11] <BluesKaj> MonkeyDust, yes 16.04
[17:12] <BluesKaj> been a KDE guy for 10yrs :-)
[17:15] <MonkeyDust> BluesKaj  16.04 as VM, or in production? i have it in vmware player
[17:17] <BluesKaj> MonkeyDust, on a partition, beside my 14.04 install
[17:19] <MonkeyDust> pink font on dark green background ... <3 my Terminal in 16.04
[17:19] <BluesKaj> VMs are ok , but I've never been able to get one to work to my satisfaction, maybe because the guest is always windows:-)
[17:20] <BluesKaj> plasma 5.4.3 desktop here
[17:22] <BluesKaj> white on black terminal for me ...easier on these old eyes
[17:22] <nicomachus> I have a very light blue on a slate-grey. pretty easy on the eyes as well
[17:23] <TJ-> yes, there's far too much of the glaring white backgrounds I find
[17:24] <TJ-> also, choosing an inverted theme really reveals the GUI bugs. I find KDE is terrible, some file choosers are unusable because they ignore the theme and use hard-coded values
[17:25] <TJ-> So I find entries drawn light-grey text on white background; takes some fine squinting to read those
[17:27] <MonkeyDust> i find kde/plasmea 'too much of too much' you can modify
[17:28] <TJ-> That's why I like it; I'm in control, not the developers
[17:30] <MonkeyDust> i mean, the GUI
[17:30] <MonkeyDust> another menu here, another option there
[17:30] <nicomachus> MonkeyDust: I take it you haven't tried any tiling WMs then?
[17:31] <MonkeyDust> nicomachus  you mean 'awesome'?
[17:31] <nicomachus> yea, or i3 or bwspm or the like. the config options are endless, and they almost never look good without at least a few hours of config work
[17:33] <MonkeyDust> i'm happy with unity
[17:33] <MonkeyDust> lxde for my vm's
[17:33] <nicomachus> yea, that's the decision I came to after trying a few different WM's.
[17:34] <MonkeyDust> did i just say that i'm happy?
[17:37] <daftykins> i think some folk just want to use their computers and get things done ;)
[17:39] <TJ-> yeah, which is why I avoid Unity!
[17:39] <MonkeyDust> TJ-  cynic
[17:39] <MonkeyDust> ;)
[17:40] <TJ-> not at all, it is completely unusable for me
[17:40] <TJ-> tries to force a workflow that is designed for a tablet onto something entirely NOT a tablet
[17:41] <TJ-> it's designed for media 'consumers' rather than engineers
[17:41] <MonkeyDust> true
[17:42] <MonkeyDust> and i'm not an engineer
[17:42] <TJ-> I have 6 1920x1200 screens, Unity is like something the dog brought up on that
[17:42] <daftykins> i was thinking about the mention of hours to make a tiling WM workable, but i'm hesitant to highlight nicomachus since he ragequits whenever i disagree :(
[17:45] <MonkeyDust> TJ-  your screens, what size are they?
[17:45] <nicomachus> daftykins: I'm sorry, you caught me on a really bad night. I am sorry about that.
[17:45] <TJ-> that Bassem is frustrating; seems to need everything repeating many times and it still doesn't stick
[17:45] <TJ-> MonkeyDust: 24" I think
[17:46] <TJ-> the laptop is 15"
[17:46] <MonkeyDust> *drool*
[17:46] <TJ-> MonkeyDust: see https://iam.tj/photos/Study-workstation.jpg
[17:47] <TJ-> That was with a regular theme, back on white, you see what I mean about glare
[17:47] <TJ-> s/back/black/
[17:48] <nicomachus> 'tis bright
[17:48] <TJ-> And hot after a while, feels like I'm getting a tan :)
[17:48] <nicomachus> not a bad side-effect for the middle of winter ;)
[17:48] <TJ-> if only it were so :D
[18:02] <TJ-> I'm escaping Bassem and going for dinner. Someone help with the nvidia black-screen Legacy/BIOS mode 14.04 desktop installer boot please. Looks like a recent GPU is the issue, but not 100% sure
[18:07] <pauljw> bbl
[18:27] <BluesKaj> hmm, Bassem seems to be back to where we started with him yesterday
[18:28] <daftykins> perhaps it's groundhog day over there? :)
[18:30] <BluesKaj> not much winter in Cairo :-)
[18:33] <BluesKaj> I was about to suggest he wipe his hdd completely and run in legacy mode making an ubuntu install easy.
[18:37] <TJ-> Yesterday there was no problem with black-screen whilst I was helping, the problem then was simply configuring sda2 to be LVM
[18:43] <BluesKaj> dunno why he needs lvm if he can barely edit ordinary parttitons
[18:44] <TJ-> I suggested it; the whole point is to avoid editing the partitions to prevent any damaged to the Windows install.
[18:45] <TJ-> There is a single 200GB sda2 empty/unused, so assign it for LVM and theb the installer can put the rootfs, swap, and home in their without messing about at all
[18:46] <TJ-> the bug is the GUI installer does not offer to create the LVM, it'll only do encryption+LVM (terrible oversight there)
[22:51] <Dylan____> Hello all
[22:52] <daftykins> ruh roh
[23:06] <daftykins> wow the guy removed the nvidia card rather than boot with nomodeset, ouch
[23:09] <TJ-> Earlier I thought he'd tried nomodeset, at least, I told him to do so. I acutally prefer the 'remove the stupid hardware' approach though :)
[23:10] <daftykins> :D
[23:10] <daftykins> would it not be more appropriate to say nouveau is stupid for having issues on maxwell hardware? (that generation card)
[23:10] <TJ-> I think I've fallen in love, at least it's fatal attraction
[23:11] <TJ-> I've just bought a 3rd one of those talking Asus mobos!
[23:11] <daftykins> :O
[23:11] <daftykins> aren't they an ancient model? :)
[23:12] <TJ-> Yeah, but they have a sound chip that talks to you even when no CPU is plugged in
[23:13] <TJ-> I'm setting up a prank for novice engineers, to teach them to not make assumptions
[23:13] <daftykins> POST reporter \o/ i remember it well
[23:13] <TJ-> Yes!
[23:13] <TJ-> it's caught my fancy terribly, I can't stop giggling when it talks
[23:13] <daftykins> :D
[23:13] <TJ-> I'm going to program custom messages into the eeprom
[23:13] <daftykins> are you going to fix a heatsink on and make them figure out there's no CPU?
[23:14] <TJ-> Then I'm going to challenge those novices to find the CPU and OS that is doing the talking
[23:14] <TJ-> You've got the idea - you're as wicked as me :D
[23:14] <daftykins> XD
[23:14] <daftykins> yeah i taught hardware to teens for a calendar year when my old College was low on staff
[23:15] <daftykins> we'd get donated a lot of old systems from banks locally, since finance is huge in the channel islands
[23:15] <TJ-> they're actually quite decent mobos from a data-recovery/forensics point of view. I keep a stock of older boards around for unusual data recovery controller requirements, so having multiple solutions on 1 mobo keeps the real estate under control
[23:16] <daftykins> ah yeah, like earlier SATA and a JMicron PATA controller on etc?
[23:16] <TJ-> Although I do think the sound should be coming from an onboard speaker, not the audio out port, that confused even me for a while
[23:17] <TJ-> and a separate promise RAID controller
[23:21] <TJ-> I found a schematic for the 2 types of sound output for the Winbond sound chip in its data sheet, so I could make a modification to the boards to enable the use of a beeper/speaker (which I'd also need to fit)
[23:21] <TJ-> Plug in one of those 12V ATX battery supplies directly on the ATX power header, and it'd be self-contained
[23:22] <TJ-> I already use those for lower-powered boards, and without an Athlon drawing power it'd support the mobo power draw
[23:24] <daftykins> :D
[23:25] <daftykins> oh crikey we're talking Socket A/462 ? i didn't think we had to go that far back in history for those boards
[23:25] <TJ-> "Hi, can you fix my new 'laptop' ? "
[23:25] <TJ-> Socket 754
[23:25] <daftykins> ah Athlon64
[23:26] <TJ-> Yes, got some Athlon64 3400+ sitting around so it'll give them something to do if necessary
[23:27] <daftykins> our students had to set each other hardware or software faults to maintain a 'fault log' as support-staff-to-be, the ones that flicked the PSU rockers on those old compaqs/HPs to 110V were a lot more costly than others ;)
[23:29] <TJ-> Ouch!
[23:29] <nicomachus> daftykins: so do you teach CS?
[23:30] <nicomachus> and TJ-?
[23:30] <TJ-> I teach CS
[23:30] <daftykins> nah it was a temporary role at the equivalent of 'A-Level' level, at a local College of further education
[23:31] <nicomachus> ah I see
[23:31] <daftykins> i was a student myself there on my route to University, went back as both IT support and then lectured too
[23:31] <nicomachus> not a bad gig.
[23:31] <TJ-> Well, sort-of. I was at my partner's uni open-day when he was checking out the uni 3 years ago, got talking to what turned out to be the head of compSci, and she asked me to become a visting professor, so I do on-the-side special stuff for those students with real veal
[23:32] <daftykins> ah nice :D
[23:32] <daftykins> that's ideal, then you can operate outside of the bureaucratic paper pushing side of education which imo ruins it all
[23:32] <nicomachus> ^
[23:32] <TJ-> You can probably imagine how hard I am on them about perfection.. my mantra - which drives them mad - is "immersion, immersion, immersion" in the context of the only way to learn something effectively
[23:32] <nicomachus> it's bad enough dealing with that as a student, I can't imagine being on the other side and trying to get stuff done while wading through it.
[23:33] <TJ-> Yes, but I do ruffle feathers!
[23:33] <daftykins> :D
[23:33] <daftykins> best way :)
[23:33] <daftykins> i had sessions where i'd tell them that they should quite IT now if they refused to touch the command line
[23:33] <daftykins> *quit
[23:34] <nicomachus> wat. how can you want to pursue any CS career and refuse to touch the command line?
[23:34] <daftykins> well it wasn't comp sci specific, it was an ICT role in general, so could encompass many areas
[23:34] <daftykins> i taught the 'units' that were networking or hardware related, as that's more my scene
[23:34] <TJ-> Yes, this uni does a lot with Windows so you can imagine I get quite hot-under-the-collar with profs and students attitudes sometimes
[23:35] <daftykins> TJ-: but computers are all just "next,next,next,finish" ;)
[23:35] <TJ-> They're also very big in the Games development industry so my background helps there, too
[23:35] <TJ-> GOTO 1
[23:35] <daftykins> ooh :D
[23:36] <TJ-> The funny part has been I've been doing the work Eddie gets about 3 months ahead of him just so when he comes to me for help I'm not having to try to get instantly up-to-speed :D
[23:36] <daftykins> i remember inspiring some kid so much with a little 'security' lesson which involved nmap usage etc that he's now a pen tester in London
[23:37] <TJ-> Yes, that's the bit that is VERY rewarding, inspiring some genuine talent
[23:37] <nicomachus> networking is something that I'd really like to learn more in-depth...
[23:37] <daftykins> :)
[23:38] <nicomachus> my dad's been a network admin for as long as I can remember, but I never really probed him much about it growing up.
[23:38] <TJ-> networking is the easiest onion I think - as in well-defined layers, easy to peel and reveal to students as you go deeper
[23:38] <daftykins> *nod*
[23:38] <TJ-> CompSci and the applied programming side can be a nightmare because you've got to shield them from the complexity of the tooling to start with, but not have them think a GUI IDE is the only way
[23:39] <TJ-> And when you start mixing in so-called DevOps so you've got to do system admin too, it needs a lot of experience to put together something easy to follow but still deep enough
[23:41] <TJ-> We should start an online IRC university :)
[23:41] <TJ-> squoo.sh.edu
[23:41] <nicomachus> that... would be interesting.
[23:42] <daftykins> :D
[23:43] <TJ-> Hmmm, an A.I. prof-bot
[23:43] <daftykins> can the grading be in virtual cookies?
[23:43] <TJ-> LOL
[23:44] <TJ-> I always thought a really cool uni would be one where from day one the students are working on actual live systems that the uni and students depend on. Really hold their feet to the flames sort of thing so they have to be serious
[23:44] <daftykins> :D
[23:45] <daftykins> we toyed with that idea where i taught, apparently before i started as a student they used to run the IT department separate to the rest of the entire College... so the students had to run their own machines
[23:45] <nicomachus> trial by fire... you either soar or burn
[23:45] <daftykins> the way it ran later was we had to keep swapping out the College systems for the 'training LAN' ones
[23:46] <daftykins> now, i believe they have proper shelves built so they can hook up each one a lot more easily
[23:46] <daftykins> maybe even use both at once
[23:47] <TJ-> Yes, having a decent lab environment with roll-back and duplicates makes a lot of sense, just need to flip a switch port over
[23:48] <daftykins> used to get a broadcast storm loop on the College side at least once a year from it ;)
[23:48] <daftykins> the College depended on using the software from Research Machines (RM) though to manage a Windows AD network, horrible stuff
[23:49] <TJ-> Yes, RM really cornered the education systems in the UK
[23:49] <daftykins> i could understand their position, 3 staff to handle 3 sites with hundreds of students
[23:50] <TJ-> nicomachus: its not so much the burn, although the occassional mistake can do wonders, but its the art of training the person to consider every step and think ahead as to what-ifs rather than blindly going ahead with something without understanding it
[23:50] <TJ-> education has always been under-served on the IT side
[23:51] <daftykins> mmm not enough process orientated education over result based
[23:51] <daftykins> the conclusion some folk jump to with support issues are insane :)
[23:51] <daftykins> *conclusions
[23:52] <nicomachus> "oh, my sound doesn't work. better nuke the whole OS"
[23:52]  * TJ- nods and shudders
[23:52] <nicomachus> like that?
[23:52] <daftykins> pretty much :)
[23:52] <TJ-> This is yet another of the infinite list of reasons for loving free/open-source and Linux
[23:53] <daftykins> that guy earlier reinstalled because his laptop wasn't charging XD
[23:53] <TJ-> At no point below chipset masks is there a place the student cannot dig if they choose to
[23:53] <OerHeks> daftykins, wait, he later admitted he cancelled the upgrade to 15.10 ..
[23:53] <OerHeks> :-D
[23:53] <daftykins> LOL
[23:54] <daftykins> "hey that thing that was not working, i'm gonna go straight back there"
[23:54] <OerHeks> is there still an echo in ubuntu14?
[23:54] <OerHeks> *hips*
[23:54] <TJ-> Microsoft Windows mentality has so much to answer for
[23:54] <daftykins> to be honest kids that claim to know Windows don't even know Windows
[23:55] <TJ-> Mostly they know how to point, click, and burrow through menus
[23:55] <daftykins> that reminds me of another one actually, kids would be all smug about thinking they know how to install Windows as if they know it like it's the back of their hand; i used one as an example by pointing out quite rudely and sharply that he'd failed to even switch the keyboard language to UK from US
[23:56] <daftykins> i think this was back on XP
[23:57] <nicomachus> huh. is there really any difference between US and UK keyboard language?
[23:57] <nicomachus> I've never even thought about that
[23:57] <TJ-> It still horrifies me that I can talk people through the Windows registry blind to fix issues; that really shows how much time I spent in it. I stopped using windows entirely in 2004!
[23:57] <daftykins> yep, plenty
[23:57] <TJ-> nicomachus: yes, a lot.
[23:57] <daftykins> " and @ are swapped for one ;)
[23:57] <TJ-> |\, ~#, $£#
[23:57] <daftykins> i should've said keyboard layout really
[23:58] <nicomachus> yea, looking at a pic now. weird.
[23:58] <daftykins> i can't stand the US layout with | and \ not by the left shift
[23:58] <TJ-> well there's the language too - the yanks always forget to type their "u" in colour, favourite etc
[23:58] <daftykins> above the enter key is just... wat :D
[23:58] <daftykins> TJ-: ;)
[23:59] <nicomachus> what even is that above you `?
[23:59] <nicomachus> s/you/your/