[07:29] <dholbach> good morning
[07:41] <Grimm_> Hello, My name is Collins Nji from Cameroon, I'm 16, and I'll like to take part in the development of Ubuntu apps. Even if it's just to watch, test or write documentations
[07:41] <Grimm_> Plus, I'm good in C++
[07:45] <dholbach> popey: ^ :)
[07:45] <dholbach> Grimm_: did you check out the docs on https://developer.ubuntu.com already?
[07:55] <Grimm_> dholbach: I'm going through that right now
[07:58] <dholbach> Grimm_: excellent - popey should be online in a bit and he can talk to you about the Core Apps project, if you'd be interested in that
[07:58] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/CoreApps/
[08:40] <Grimm_> dholbach: That will be nice thanks :)
[08:40] <dholbach> great :)
[09:03] <Sleep_Walker> bzoltan_: just quick feedback after some fight - your tools are tightly bound to launchpad - autopilot is not in python package index, ubuntu-sdk-ide downloads data from launchpad through API - we have restrictions about build environment - is it possible to override that somehow?
[09:07] <Sleep_Walker> omg, it's downloading bazaar branches
[09:08] <Sleep_Walker> no released tarballs to fetch available?
[09:32] <zzarr> hello! is there a way to install a xenial armhf emulator on 15.10?
[09:34] <zzarr> what I really mean is OTA-9 not xenial (I realized I mixed them together)
[10:06] <zzarr> is it possible to install Ubuntus SDK for Xenial on Wily?
[10:15] <popey> zzarr, not sure we support xenial yet, I don't think there's a framework for it...
[10:16] <zzarr> okey, thanks popey
[10:18] <zzarr> popey, will OTA-9 be based off of 15.04 or 16.04?
[10:18] <popey> 15.04
[10:18] <popey> we haven't switched from vivid+overlay yet
[10:18] <popey> doubt we will for a while
[10:20] <zzarr> okey, is there a way to install the OTA-9 framework in Ubuntu SDK on a 15.10 installation?
[10:30] <popey> zzarr, in a kit, you could create a 15.04 kit and add the overlay ppa
[10:36] <zzarr> how do I do that popey?
[10:36] <popey> do you have a 15.04 kit?
[10:38] <zzarr> yes
[10:42] <popey> Grimm_, hiya! Is there any particular are you're interested in contributing to?
[11:34] <zzarr> popey, how do I add the ppa overlay?
[11:36] <popey> zzarr, it's deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/ci-train-ppa-service/stable-phone-overlay/ubuntu vivid main
[11:36] <popey> thats the ppa line I have on my bq e4.5
[11:37] <zzarr> do I install it in the emulator?
[11:41] <popey> Yes, in the device kit / emulator
[11:41] <zzarr> how do I run add-apt-repository with that url?
[11:42] <zzarr> I see, I opened the "maintain" terminal
[11:43] <zzarr> I added it in the sources.list but got this error "W: GPG error: http://ppa.launchpad.net vivid InRelease: The following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY 85504128ECF1204C"
[11:58] <zzarr> popey, I solved it :)
[12:25] <zzarr> I installed libqt5bluetooth5 in the emulator, even so I get this error "Unknown module(s) in QT: bluetooth"
[12:25] <zzarr> what is needed to get rid of that error?
[12:30] <zzarr> I solved the problem :)
[12:31] <sturmflut> Is the Ubuntu SDK IDE compatible with xenial? I just upgraded and reinstalled, now I get a "Project ERROR: Unknown module(s) in QT: quick qml" error on one of my existing qmake-based "QML with C++ plugin" projects.
[12:31] <zzarr> installed a qtconnectivity5-dev and all needed packages
[12:32] <zzarr> sturmflut, have you installed the packages in your emulator?
[12:33] <sturmflut> zzarr: This is on the desktop, and I don't use the emulator, I have three phones ;)
[12:37] <zzarr> okey, then I think it's depending on what qt version xenial will come with
[12:37] <sturmflut> Hah, stupid me. "ubuntu-sdk-ide" doesn't have a dependency on "ubuntu-sdk".
[12:38] <zzarr> okey
[12:47] <sturmflut> bzoltan_: Ping, will there be ubuntu-sdk-api-15.04-armhf packages for xenial?
[12:48] <zzarr> sturmflut, you really mean xenial not OTA-9?
[12:48] <sturmflut> zzarr: xenial on the desktop
[12:49] <zzarr> okey
[12:50] <zzarr> do anyone know what package I need when I get this error "error: Unknown module(s) in QT: qml"?
[12:54] <sturmflut> zzarr: qtdeclarative5-dev I think
[13:02] <zzarr> thanks sturmflut, I will install that
[13:04] <zzarr> that did not do it, any other suggestion?
[13:38] <zzarr> I installed qt5-default as well, but still I get the error
[13:44] <bzoltan_> sturmflut: if you need one I can make one :)
[13:45] <bzoltan_> sturmflut:  But you can safely force the Wily edition too... it is not binded to anything
[14:00] <zzarr> sturmflut, I think we got the same problem with Ubuntu SDK and the ubuntu-sdk-api-15.04-armhf
[14:01] <sturmflut> bzoltan_: Ah, thanks
[14:01] <zzarr> I installed an "overlay" in the 15.04-armhf kit
[14:04] <zzarr> is there a newer version of Ubuntu SDK (ppa) that can be installed?
[14:04] <sturmflut> bzoltan_: I can't setup my OTA-8 device in SDK IDE 3.5.0+15.10.20151024-0ubuntu1~97+201511170915~ubuntu16.04.1 any longer. The log shows multiple "Generating host key... Key must at least be 1024 bits" errors. I have a pre-existing SSH key that's 2048 bits long and works fine with phablet-shell. Any ideas?
[14:06] <bzoltan_> sturmflut: we have a fix for that.. lemme point you to the right place
[14:06] <sturmflut> zzarr: I just installed the most recent ubuntu-sdk from ppa:ubuntu-sdk-team/ppa, deleted all kits and created a new one through the SDK IDE. Now everything works, except deployment to the device (as mentioned right now)
[14:06] <zzarr> okey, thanks
[14:07] <bzoltan_> sturmflut:  we have th enext release candidate with a fix for that case here -> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-sdk-team/+archive/ubuntu/tools-development
[14:07] <bzoltan_> sturmflut:  it would be a great help if you could check if it fixes your case too
[14:08] <sturmflut> bzoltan_: Which package exactly contains the fix? ubuntu-sdk-ide - 3.5.0+15.10.20151024-0ubuntu1~102+201512140615~ubuntu16.04.1 ?
[14:12] <zzarr> I installed the Ubuntu SDK from ppa, still I get the same error
[14:13] <bzoltan_> sturmflut: 3.5.0+15.10.20151024-0ubuntu1~102+201512140615
[14:14] <bzoltan_> sturmflut:  that is the release candidate we are working on right now... it is a 7h old build
[14:15] <sturmflut> bzoltan_: Installing...
[14:18] <zzarr> should I remove ubuntu-sdk and install ubuntu-sdk-ide?
[14:19] <zzarr> or just install ubuntu-sdk-ide?
[14:19] <sturmflut> zzarr: have you tried removing the chroot itself? Or was it freshly created just recently
[14:20] <sturmflut> bzoltan_: With 3.5.0+15.10.20151024-0ubuntu1~102+201512140615 I can deploy and run on the device again, seems to fix the problem.
[14:20] <bzoltan_> zzarr: the ubuntu-sdk remains the same.. that has nothing to do with it. If you use the SDK PPA then the ubuntu-sdk pulls the new IDE package... but not from the Tools Development PPA, what is the staging area for the new release candidate IDE.
[14:20] <bzoltan_> sturmflut:  Good to hear! Thank you for validating that bugfix :)
[14:21] <zzarr> bzoltan_, so I sould just install ubuntu-sdk-ide?
[14:22] <bzoltan_> zzarr: No, a simple dist-upgrade will pull the latest releasd SDK IDE
[14:22] <zzarr> ohh, I see, thanks bzoltan_
[14:24] <sturmflut> bzoltan_: I ran into the same trap before, I'm not sure if the ubuntu-sdk-ide package should have a depency on the rest of the SDK bits, because if I install the SDK IDE I somehow expect that it brings in everything needed. OTOH some people might not want that. I'm unsure what the perfect solution would look like.
[14:27] <zzarr> I still got the error :(
[14:27] <bzoltan_> sturmflut:  That is why no documenttion suggests to install the ubuntu-sdk-ide just as a standalone package.
[14:27] <bzoltan_> zzarr:  what is the error?
[14:27] <zzarr> "Unknown module(s) in QT: qml"
[14:28] <bzoltan_> zzarr:  what PPAs, what packages and what chroots do you use?
[14:29] <bzoltan_> sturmflut: it is the ubuntu-sdk what pulls the ubuntu-sdk-ide and ubuntu-sdk-dev packages. Not the opposit direction :)
[14:30] <mhall119> faenil: https://developer.ubuntu.com/api/apps/qml/sdk-15.04.1/Ubuntu.Components.SlotsLayout/ new docs are live in production now :)
[14:30] <mhall119> faenil: also, they will be updated every night from vivid packages in the archive and the overlay PPA
[14:30] <faenil> mhall119: <3
[14:31] <faenil> mhall119: so also 15.04.2 and 15.04.3 will go to .1 web url?
[14:31] <faenil> (.2 has already been released afaik)
[14:31] <mhall119> faenil: yes, because nobody ever told me those were bring made :(
[14:31] <faenil> mhall119: I see...
[14:32] <faenil> bzoltan_: ^
[14:32] <zzarr> bzoltan_, on the host I use ppa:ubuntu-sdk-team/ppa and in a kit click-ubuntu-sdk-15.04-armhf I use ppa:ci-train-ppa-service/stable-phone-overlay
[14:32] <faenil> mhall119: the framework situation is not clear to me :/
[14:33] <mhall119> faenil: nor me. I thought I knew what the plan was, but it keeps changing
[14:33] <mhall119> we need to sync up with bzoltan_ and pmcgowan to nail it down and put it in stone
[14:35] <bzoltan_> mhall119:  what can I do for you guys?
[14:35] <bzoltan_> zzarr:  is your target in the IDE set to the right kit?
[14:36] <mhall119> bzoltan_: we need to all get on the same page about how and when we define new Frameworks
[14:37] <zzarr> bzoltan_, unsure what you mean, but if you ask if I select the correct kit the answer is yes and if you ask if the kit is using the correct chroot, the answer is yes
[14:37] <bzoltan_> mhall119:  I have nothing to do with that... sil2100 releases the new click package with the incremented label (15.04.3 is thr running one) after each OTA and somebody (not sure who, could be sil2100 too) updates the store...
[14:38] <mhall119> ok, then I need to sync with pmgowan and sil2100
[14:41] <zzarr> if I run ubuntu-sdk-ide it don't recognize any qmake (all kit's are faulty)
[14:42] <sturmflut> zzarr: Have you tried just removing and then recreating the chroots?
[14:42] <zzarr> no, should I?
[14:42] <sturmflut> Hmm, "module Ubuntu.Web is not installed".
[14:43] <sturmflut> zzarr: I deleted and recreated mine an hour ago and things magically worked again
[14:43] <zzarr> okey
[14:43] <zzarr> I need to rebuild all kits?
[14:44] <bzoltan_> mhall119:  but what is the problem? all you need to do is to generate the new docs from the Overlay UITK package  after each OTA.
[14:44] <sturmflut> zzarr: I would try it for the one you're trying to work with
[14:45] <zzarr> okey
[14:45] <mhall119> bzoltan_: is that always going to be considered the stable set of APIs?
[14:45] <zzarr> I'll do that
[14:45] <bzoltan_> mhall119:  yes
[14:45] <mhall119> for example, is everything in 15.04.3 *now* going to be supported with backwards compatibility *indefinitely*?
[14:46] <mhall119> and nothing new will land in 15.04.3
[14:46] <bzoltan_> mhall119:  not  *indefinitely*
[14:46] <bzoltan_> mhall119: nothing ever lands on a framework... frameworks are simple labels, incremental labels... see them as simple tags on each OTA
[14:47] <mhall119> no, frameworks are a contract, between the app developer and the platform, that tells them what APIs are available on a phone
[14:48] <bzoltan_> mhall119: yes and it is realized as a simple and single string... a label
[14:49] <mhall119> yes, I know the technical implementation, but the implied contract is what I care about, and what I'm worried we're not adhering to
[14:49] <bzoltan_> mhall119: it is technically impossible to land anything on an old framework... there is no way to do that.
[14:49] <mhall119> so there will be no new APIs added to 15.04.3
[14:50] <zzarr> not that I will, but what would happen if I ran add-apt-repository ppa:ci-train-ppa-service/stable-phone-overlay on my phone?
[14:50] <bzoltan_> mhall119: Since there is no API in the 15.04.3 :) the answer is yes, there will ne no new APIs added. The framworks do not define API sets.
[14:51] <mhall119> yes they do! Maybe not technically, but in terms of what we tell developers they can use, the absolutely do
[14:52] <bzoltan_> mhall119: if not technically, then how? That is why I call them "labels" ... we keep releasing new APIs OTA by OTA and each release gets an incremented stamp ... 15.04.1 .2 .3 ... .N
[14:52] <mhall119> look, if I'm an app developer, and I go to developer.ubuntu.com, and I see an API that says it's for Ubuntu SDK 15.04.3, I want to know that it will be available on *every* phone image that ships with that framework, from the first image with it to the last image with it
[14:53] <bzoltan_> mhall119:  there will be no multiply images with the same label (framework) as far as I know
[14:54] <mhall119> every image has multiple frameworks already
[14:54] <bzoltan_> mhall119:  so yes, if teh developer creates an app what is binded to the 15.04.03 then all phones with at least 15.04.03 will work  with it.
[14:55] <sturmflut> What parts of the system are part of a framework? For example I built glmark2 against some Mir library version that was in the current OTA when I built it, the next OTA shipped different Mir libraries and suddenly the app didn't work anymore and hat to be rebuilt against the new libraries. I somehow expected that the app would keep working until the "framework" it was linked against was completely removed from the phone.
[14:55] <bzoltan_> mhall119: images have multiply frameworks but frameworks have no multiply images as far as I know.
[14:55] <mhall119> sturmflut: only those APIs which we document on the developer portal are considered part of the framework
[14:56] <mhall119> bzoltan_: yes, they do, framework ubuntu-sdk-14.10 has had multiple images
[14:56] <bzoltan_> mhall119:  there is no device out there with that fw as I know
[14:56] <mhall119> my Nexus 4 has it
[14:57] <mhall119> ls /usr/share/click/frameworks/ on any Ubuntu device
[14:57] <mhall119> heck, mine even has 13.10 and 14.04 frameworks on it
[14:57] <mhall119> which means those APIs should *still* be available to apps that use them
[14:57] <mhall119> that is the contract
[14:57] <bzoltan_> mhall119:  there was some disturbance in the force before we came upo with this incremental .1 .2 .3 numbering... but it will not happen again. That was more like a bug  back then.
[14:58] <mhall119> bzoltan_: this was the *design*
[14:58] <bzoltan_> mhall119:  of course.. app developers are tottaly free to use as old APIs as they want
[14:58] <mhall119> like I said, we need to have a call or something about this
[14:58] <bzoltan_> mhall119: a broken one :)
[14:59] <mhall119> bzoltan_: well if the design has changed, I haven't been kept up to date with it
[14:59] <sturmflut> mhall119: Hm, means I would have to bundle pretty much every library that's between my app and the kernel? Because neither libmirclient nor libc nor libprotobuf etc. are guaranteed to be shipped with the next OTA anymore in the exact same version I linked against.
[14:59] <bzoltan_> mhall119: I think the present incremental labeling was fixing that problem ... now OTAX has 15.04.(X-5) fw
[15:00] <mhall119> sturmflut: or petition those developers to support the use of those APIs by 3rd party devs and create a framework for it
[15:00] <mhall119> bzoltan_: well that causes other problems, because the developer portal wasn't designed to handle new frameworks every 6 weeks
[15:06] <bzoltan_> mhall119:  That is true and trully a problem.
[15:12] <sturmflut> mhall119: I was expecting that everything that's shipped with a phone OTA by default and/or is in an SDK Kit by default is part of the framework. Because the Ubuntu SDK has an official template for a native C++ app and even asks you which framework you want to rely on, but at no point does it tell you that every non-Qt5 library in the Kit/device image you may link against is not part of the framework. The documentation is also
[15:12] <sturmflut> not very clear on this, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Click/Frameworks does not give a definition for anything after Ubuntu 13.10.
[15:15] <mhall119> sturmflut: agreed that we're not clear on this (and also that the wiki is way out of date)
[15:26] <mcphail> sturmflut: I use a little script to parse ldd and pull in all the deps into a click, then go through and manually cull ones like libc. I can't think of a sensible way to isolate libc, because this is always going to be tied to kernel version, and may change if the kernel changes (so bundling it in a click is not going to help). I'm sure we're all going to face this when we move off vivid and face all the c++ problems
[15:28] <mcphail> sturmflut: libmirclient is a particular bugbear, though, as the API changes and breaks things with minor version number bumps
[15:29] <sturmflut> mcphail: Such a script was exactly was I was thinking of, and TBH I would even somehow expect that the SDK "Publish" button takes the main binary (if there is one), runs ldd on it and refuses to publish if there ist at least one library that is neither in the framework nor bundled
[15:32] <bzoltan_> mcphail:  we have a prototype tool for that purpose... shame and sad that we simple do not have the capacity to roll it out. In general I am not pleased how we treat our platform API set.
[15:32] <sturmflut> bzoltan_: Oh, is this something the community could help with?
[15:34] <sturmflut> For the start it could be enough to build a cheap "do ldd, check it against this textfile of bundled framework libs, and all the bundled libaries in the click package" pass to the click review tool?
[15:35] <bzoltan_> sturmflut:  not really... that API controller tool should be the part of th SDK IDE and the platform infrastructure. Doing exactly what mcphail is doing... watching out for possible ABI an API incompatibility.
[15:36] <sturmflut> bzoltan_: Okay
[15:48] <mcphail> bzoltan_: it would be good if it _was_ delivered as a standalone tool, which the IDE could call if required. That way it could be used by those of us who don't use the IDE for most things
[15:51] <bzoltan_> mcphail: All our tools can be used with and without the IDE. Since the very first SDK release I keep this principle.
[15:52] <bzoltan_> mcphail:  of course the IDE makes certain tasks simpler... but that is the point of the IDE :)
[15:52] <sturmflut> bzoltan_: I don't seem to have the Ubuntu.Web QML components in my SDK IDE, is that normal?
[15:53] <bzoltan_> sturmflut:  is it missing from your chroot?
[15:53] <bzoltan_> sturmflut:  the Ubuntu Desktop Kit is not complete .. the web actually could be added without much risk
[15:54] <sturmflut> bzoltan_: On the desktop, it's not in /usr/ubuntu-sdk-ide/bin/qml/ nor in /usr/ubuntu-sdk-dev/qml/
[15:55] <bzoltan_> sturmflut: I put it on my backlog for next week
[15:56] <bzoltan_> sturmflut:  the desktop kit is missing lots of APIs ... mostly because it takes already ages to get the whole package set build :) and I try to add stuff there incrementally... second not all API builds for Trusty-Vivid-Wily-Xenial
[16:03] <sturmflut> Hmmmm, I can at least still run the app using /usr/bin/qmlscene and the system-wide Ubuntu Components installation. That allows for some form of development
[16:13] <mcphail> bzoltan_: Indeed - I appreciate your commitment to our little band of vim addicts :)
[16:14] <bzoltan_> mcphail:  little? I thought we are many :D