[02:46] <cmaloney> Evening
[02:53] <_stink_> yo
[14:15] <jrwren> good morning!
[14:23] <cmaloney> good morning!
[14:24] <cmaloney> How's the morning?
[14:45]  * rick_h_ grumbled
[15:00] <cmaloney> That good eh?
[15:14] <rick_h_> well, sitting on an ice pack post-surgery yay
[15:17] <jrwren> WHAT? you got surgered?
[15:18] <rick_h_> yea, well I guess 'inpatience procedure' might be the right word?
[15:27] <jrwren> oh no. its surgery!
[15:27] <jrwren> That is an old bit from city slickers.
[15:27] <jrwren> about aging.
[15:27] <jrwren> "40s, you grow a little pot belly, you grow another chin. The music gets too loud"
[15:27] <jrwren> "An old girlfriend from high school becomes a grandmother"
[15:28] <jrwren> "50s, you have a minor surgery. You'll call it a procedure, but it's a surgery"
[15:28] <jrwren> "60s, you'll have a major surgery The music is still loud"
[15:28] <jrwren> "but you can't hear it anyway"
[15:28] <jrwren> " 70s, you and the wife retire to Fort Lauderdale"
[15:28] <jrwren> "You eat dinner at two in the afternoon"
[15:28] <jrwren> I always liked that bit :)
[15:28] <jrwren> heal quickly, rick_h_ !
[16:00] <ColonelPanic001> :\
[16:06] <cmaloney> rick_h_: Hope the in-patient procedure doesn't become impatience
[16:46] <cmaloney> Can someone give me a link with compelling reasons for using MongoDB over PostgreSQL?
[16:46] <rick_h_> cmaloney: no
[16:47] <rick_h_> absolutely not
[16:47] <rick_h_> cmaloney: never
[16:47] <cmaloney> rick_h_: I know. Apparently I have to find the devil's advocate
[16:47] <rick_h_> cmaloney: I am the devil's advocate
[16:47] <cmaloney> heh
[16:47] <rick_h_> we run all of juju, plus a handful of production services on mongodb
[16:47] <rick_h_> and we wish we had the chance to port them all, including juju, to pgsql
[16:47] <rick_h_> the end
[16:47] <jrwren> cmaloney: there is never a good reson to use mongodb
[16:48] <jrwren> cmaloney: masochism maybe?
[16:48] <rick_h_> cmaloney: we've got thousands and thousands of lines of code that say "mongodb is always a mistake" from CMS type apps, distributed apps, small scale,larger scale
[16:49] <cmaloney> rick_h_: Yeah, I know. MongoDB is terrible.
[16:49] <jrwren> cmaloney: I'll play - scale out is easier.
[16:49] <cmaloney> We ran it at SF. It was great when it worked, and terrible when it sort of worked.
[16:50] <jrwren> cmaloney: mongodb shards are more transparent. with postgrsql you have to think more aobut your sharding and scale out story. your app probbaly needs to know about it.  with mongodb its transparent
[16:50] <rick_h_> jrwren: except things like replicasets and split brain is too easy to hit, etc
[16:50] <jrwren> cmaloney: the protocol awareness of master and slave replicasets is nice because client APIs can automatically retry on a different member of the replicaset
[16:50] <cmaloney> So hstore over mogodb then?
[16:50] <jrwren> rick_h_: shush, I'm playing devils advocate.
[16:50] <rick_h_> cmaloney: every single time
[16:51] <jrwren> rick_h_: i'd still NEVER use mongodb. I'm just giving cmaloney what he asked for.
[16:51] <rick_h_> cmaloney: especially because you can mix the right data into hstore and keep the right tool for the job for non-key/value stuff
[16:51] <cmaloney> Honestly the sharding is pretty much the only reason I can think of
[16:51] <jrwren> cmaloney: jsonb FTW
[16:51] <cmaloney> but we're never going to be using it
[16:54] <cmaloney> Thanks, though. I knew Juju was running MongoDB (Allura ran it as well. Not sure if they still are or not)
[16:55] <cmaloney> and I knew I could count on rick_h_ for the vitriol if it wasn't working out.
[16:55] <cmaloney> and jrwren for the technical reasons why it might be useful.
[16:55] <rick_h_> cmaloney: it's not even vitriol, just real world experience sinking in hundreds of dev hours per day into it
[16:55] <cmaloney> Well, vitriol in that it isn't working out
[16:55] <jrwren> cmaloney: how do you do incremental mongodb backups?
[16:55] <jrwren> trick question!  you don't!
[16:56] <cmaloney> jrwren: Heh
[16:56] <cmaloney> Not sure how to do incremental SQL backups, honestly
[16:56] <cmaloney> outside of timestamp-based transactions
[16:56] <cmaloney> or replication
[16:57] <jrwren> most rdbms suport them.
[16:57] <jrwren> postgresql supports transaction log reply for point in time recovery
[16:57] <jrwren> *replay*
[16:57] <cmaloney> Right
[16:57] <cmaloney> I don't think of that as incremental though
[16:57] <jrwren> but it is.
[16:57] <cmaloney> though my understanding is based on "dump"
[16:57] <jrwren> you do a single full backup and incrementally backup the transaction logs
[16:57] <cmaloney> Right
[16:58] <cmaloney> That would qualify then
[16:58] <cmaloney> Most of our backups are essentially "dump"
[17:00] <jrwren> do you really take fs dump?
[17:00] <jrwren> not tar or rsync?
[17:00] <cmaloney> I think we're using backuppc or something similar
[17:00] <cmaloney> not that close to the hardware
[17:00] <jrwren> iirc that just fronts rsync or tar.
[17:00] <cmaloney> Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me
[17:10] <cmaloney> I think finding an article that says MongoDB is a better fit than PostgreSQL is like trying to find a unicorn in my underpants
[18:12] <cscheib> jrwren: Chazzano in Ferndale is super quick about shipping coffee FYI.  I ordered Sunday, arrived today
[18:15] <jrwren> cscheib: COOL!
[18:15] <jrwren> so... next LTS, Xenial is not getting http2 support for "security reasons" but I've not seen those reasons documented :(
[18:15] <jrwren> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-release-notes/+bug/1503051
[18:22] <cmaloney> So will it be eventually released when those bugs are fixed?
[18:22] <cscheib> I was running out of coffee, was afraid it wasn't going to arrive in time
[18:23] <cmaloney> cscheib: That sounds about right
[18:23] <cmaloney> since mon would be pick-up, and mon-tue would be sorting and what-not
[18:23] <cmaloney> <- the usps whisperer
[18:23] <cscheib> not a particular fan of said governmental entity :P
[18:24] <cscheib> but, they did me good, this time
[18:24] <cmaloney> I prefer the USPS by a country mile
[18:25] <cmaloney> USPS > UPS > FedEx / DHL / *
[18:25] <cmaloney> at least for shipping
[18:25] <jrwren> cmaloney: i've seen no evidence that it will get into LTS 16.04. So maybe 18.04 :(
[18:25] <cmaloney> UPS I prefer for delivery because they show up around noon
[18:25] <cscheib> UPS treats me well
[18:25] <cmaloney> jrwren: That's kind of silly
[18:25] <cscheib> very very well
[18:26] <cmaloney> cscheib: I'm intrigued
[18:27] <cmaloney> Although I just got notification of something arriving at Allen Park that was electronically requested on Dec 2nd
[18:27] <cmaloney> At least USPS has been good about any cock-ups they've done
[18:27] <cmaloney> as opposed to FedEx which still hasn't updated what happened to a package that went missing in October.
[18:28] <cmaloney> Seriously, this is some CNN-level-Malaysian-flight-into-black-hole mystery here
[18:28] <cscheib> UPS has mychoice, I can see when seller ships package, estimated time frame of delivery (sometimes), date of delivery, when it's been delivered
[18:28] <cscheib> all without having to type in a tracking number
[18:28] <cmaloney> my.usps.com
[18:28] <cmaloney> Same thing
[18:29] <cmaloney> and free. ;)
[18:29] <cscheib> but this is automated and free and emails me without any work :P
[18:29] <cscheib> I've never found USPS's tracking to be at all useful
[18:29] <cmaloney> This is automated, and free, and emails me without any work
[18:29] <cmaloney> it's gotten better
[18:29] <cscheib> "it'll arrive some tiem this week"
[18:29] <cmaloney> granted there's a few times where stuff has "transported"
[18:29] <cmaloney> but it's quite good
[18:30] <cmaloney> About 90% of where UPS's tracking is
[18:30] <cscheib> the worst is when Amazon uses SmartPost or whatever to ship something
[18:30] <cmaloney> They all do
[18:30] <cscheib> that "last mile" takes forever
[18:30] <cmaloney> Last mile is USPS because it's cheaper
[18:30] <cscheib> yup
[18:31] <cmaloney> Which keeps my boyfriend-in-law with a decent job
[18:31] <cmaloney> (he's a postal carrier)
[18:31] <jrwren> amazon drones are gonna RULE!!!
[18:32] <cscheib> I have never heard the phrase boyfriend-in-law, heh
[18:32] <cmaloney> Well, it's my sister-in-law's boyfriend
[18:32] <cmaloney> ergo...
[18:32] <cmaloney> he's cool, so that's where he gets "boyfriend-in-law"
[18:34] <_stink_> i feel like there has to be a moment where you tell him you now consider him your boyfriend-in-law
[18:35] <cscheib> oooh, this Ethiopia Harrar smells sooo good.
[18:37] <cmaloney> _stink_: heh
[18:37] <cmaloney> I think I've said as much in front of him
[18:37] <_stink_> awww.
[18:44] <cscheib> it's a bromance
[18:45] <cmaloney> Kindly never use that word around me ever again
[18:45] <cmaloney> amen
[18:48]  * cscheib files away in the "buttons to push" file
[18:51] <cscheib> coffee be good.  wise purchase.