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jvansciverhappy new year12:57
ondrej_a quick C question: I need to patch something to resolver UID/GID at runtime; could I optimize the function by doing: getuid(const char *) { static uid_t u = -1; if (u == -1) { getpwnam_jumbo... u = pw.pw_uid; } return u; }13:20
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ondrejwrong channel (wanted #debian-devel), feel free to answer anyway :)13:21
rbasakondrej: seems reasonable to me assuming a single thread and that it's OK to assume that underlying changes won't be reflected. But why do you need the optimisation? If NIS is slow, then surely the sysadmin would arrange a caching NIS mechanism further down the stack?13:28
rbasakUh, s/NIS/NSS/13:28
ondrejrbasak: because I call it with same uname/gname every time13:29
rbasakondrej: I don't think that's reasonable in itself. Premature optimization and all that.13:29
rbasakI mean I don't think that's a reason in itself.13:30
rbasakI'm not sure why I used the word reasonable. I'm not being particularly coherent right now, sorry.13:30
ondrejrbasak: you might be right; I'll optimize only if somebody bitches13:34
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tomasqI would like to ask if Ubuntu developers are Canonical employees?19:23
tomasqor most are community developers?19:23
tsimonq2tomasq: some are Canonical, some aren't19:24
tsimonq2tomasq: it's really on a developer-by-developer basis19:24
tsimonq2tomasq: but I have enountered more community developers then Canonical folks19:24
tomasqah, thanks!19:24
tomasqI am very interested in Ubuntu Desktop plans and roadmap. How Mark want to make it more popular?19:26
tsimonq2tomasq: what do you mean by that?19:26
tsimonq2tomasq: do you want to look into Unity development?19:26
tsimonq2(Uniy is the DE for Ubuntu)19:26
tomasqI am just interested in the future of Ubuntu. Who decides what is the priority, what should be developed, etc.19:27
tsimonq2tomasq: from an observational perspective or would you like to participate?19:28
tomasqIt looks for me, that direction they have choosen is little bit wrong and now they are trying to do everything and developing force is not so strong now.19:28
tsimonq2tomasq: look at this for the structure of the Ubuntu connunity: http://community.ubuntu.com/community-structure/governance/19:29
tomasqThank you very much19:29
tsimonq2tomasq: this will give you a lot of good information, this is where I got the governance page from: community.ubuntu.com19:30
tsimonq2tomasq: so would you like to contribute to Ubuntu?19:31
tomasqwell, I am software developer and hardware engineer, but I am seeing areas that should be improved. It would be great to contribute and especially fix some bugs. I am participating in translations for long time, but fixing bugs is more important I guess.19:35
tsimonq2tomasq: all of it plays parts19:36
tsimonq2where would you like to fix bugs?19:36
tomasqthe problem is, that there are too many changes in each release19:38
tsimonq2tomasq: if you want slower changes, use LTS :)19:39
tomasqMy wish is to put gnome 2 times back :D19:39
tsimonq2tomasq: Ubutnu MATE = Ubuntu with GNOME 219:39
tomasqYes, but they are not stable enough too :(19:40
tsimonq2actually it is very stable19:40
tsimonq2tomasq: it's modern, fast, and seems to be user-friendly19:40
tsimonq2tomasq: join #ubuntu-mate for more details19:41
tomasqThere are system apps that are crashing, graphical glitches with some drivers, problems with pulseaudio with 7.1 sound, old apps. Generally it is good, but if you are user that can't accept single issue, it is big problem.19:41
tomasqI know Ubuntu and Mate very well.19:41
tsimonq2well then file bug reports :)19:42
tomasqI am filling, but nothing is changing for years :(19:42
tsimonq2tomasq: talk to people in #ubuntu-mate19:42
tomasqAnd this is what I want to change.19:42
tsimonq2well it isn't easy19:42
tomasqI know.19:42
tsimonq2tomasq: so do you want to fix bugs? or what do you want to do to change this?19:43
tsimonq2tomasq: http://packaging.ubuntu.com/html/ is the packaging guide19:44
tomasqYes, but they are in very different areas and packages.19:45
tsimonq2tomasq: well pick one and contribute19:45
tsimonq2tomasq: unless you want to fix a lot of them19:45
tomasqWhat I would like to see is to stop development of all the fancy stuff and make it rock solid.19:46
tomasqFor example Mir development.19:46
tsimonq2tomasq: well quite frankly that isn't gonna happen19:47
tsimonq2tomasq: if you see something wrong, report it and/or fix it19:47
mitya57tomasq, re Canonical vs non-Canonical: http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~stefanor/ubuntu-activity/#affiliation19:49
tomasqI know, but all these things will contribute to the end of Ubuntu or at least strong transition to other distros. I love Ubuntu so I am worried. I know my words are strong, but you will see in 5 years. Ubuntu has potential to change the world.19:49
tsimonq2tomasq: I am afraid you are wrong :)19:51
tsimonq2tomasq: Ubutnu is stable19:51
tsimonq2tomasq: Ubuntu has features19:51
tsimonq2tomasq: if you see something specific, fix it19:52
tumbleweedmitya57: take those stats with a pinch of salt - I wouldn't trust them19:52
tsimonq2tomasq: but that is how you are going to make an impact19:52
tomasqI am using Ubuntu from the beginning, I know its state very well. And everybody around me is using it as well.19:52
tsimonq2tomasq: It's not going anywhere19:52
mitya57tumbleweed, but it should give the rough picture :)19:52
tsimonq2it's getting better and better, but it isn't going away19:52
tumbleweedI think I curated that list by hand, and haven't touched it since19:53
tomasqI would be very glad if my words are false.19:54
mitya57tumbleweed, ok, will know that19:55
tomasqMy guess is that Unity and Mac-ification were the first bad steps. It took way too long to get into really usable state.19:55
tsimonq2tomasq: well then focus on specific items19:55
tsimonq2stop being too broad :)19:55
tomasqI am not conservative user, but in our company we are using Linux on desktops, so I can see what could happen if you are using it 16h each day.19:56
tomasqLinux is super stable without any doubt.19:57
tomasqFor example Mate, it is fork of Gnome 2. But it is not that stable and useable as Gnome 2. It is very strange, but it is true.19:58
tomasqThere are newly introduced bugs that were not present with Gnome 219:59
tomasqbut this is not fault of Ubuntu19:59
mitya57tomasq, did you try GNOME Flashback?20:00
tomasqYou have to add many addons to make it at least partially usable as gnome 220:00
mitya57The default Ubuntu settings are having exactly the same set of applets as old Ubuntus (≤ 11.04) had by default.20:01
tomasqFor example desktop shortcuts, menu editation, panel settings, nothing is present20:03
mitya57You have all of that :) Desktop shortcuts are configured from the System Settings, menu editor is alacarte, panel settings are there (use Alt + right click on panel).20:04
tomasqI know all possibilities of Unity, but you know that it is not so configurable as old gnome 2. Same with gnome 3.20:05
mitya57I was speaking about gnome-flashback, not Unity. But the first two points apply to Unity too.20:06
tomasqfor example I dont understand, why Ubuntu in older version had nice bootsplash even with proprietary drivers. Why there are just 4 ASCII dots now? I know it is not a bug, but it is not improvement. Also there are strange text outputs at the end that shouldn't really be there.20:15
tomasqThese small things can really irritate users even that it does not present any real problem.20:18
dobeyfor one, dealing with UEFI systems made things much more difficult20:19
dobeyfor two, it's not "macification"20:20
dobeyand if you don't like unity, there are plenty of other environments you can use20:20
tarpmantomasq: because the proprietary drivers don't support KMS. but the proprietary driver developers are to blame for that, not Ubuntu20:20
tomasqdobey: I have used unity for at least 2 years.20:21
tomasqI know, but there is always solution. Why it worked previously?20:21
dobeyi don't understand what you say isn't working20:22
dobeythe boot splash does work20:22
tomasqyes, but only with opensource drivers.20:23
dobeyit worked for me on nvidia two weeks ago when i had an nvidia card, before i returned it to amazon because so many other nvidia things don't work20:24
tomasqthats interesting.20:24
dobeyand well, if you have problems with proprietary drivers, you can hardly blame ubuntu for the proprietary things causing problems20:24
tomasqnono, proprietary drivers are working perfectly for me20:24
dobeyhttp://moebuntu.web.fc2.com/img/plymouth/plymouth_default1.png is the text mode boot splash20:25
dobeyhttp://ubuntuhandbook.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/ubuntu-boot-flash-screen.jpg is the graphical boot splash20:25
tomasqjust start ubuntu in virtualbox, why there was bootsplash with older versions?20:26
tomasqand now there is not20:26
tomasqBut of course this is not a problem for me, it is just example.20:26
dobeyi don't have any vms set up, so i can't do that20:27
dobeybut i don't know what you're complaining about exaclty20:27
dobeyafaik, the problem is that you didn't install the guest bits20:27
tomasqabout similar small things, that nobody want to solve.20:27
dobeyit's a poor examples20:27
tomasqdobey: yes, you are right. But previously it worked without any guest additions20:27
dobeyafaik it did not20:28
tarpmanvirtualbox+plymouth → https://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/14503 most likely20:28
tomasqpreviously = few releases back.20:29
dobeybut, it's software. software occasionally has bugs. vague comments like "this used to work and no longer works" aren't helpful. if you want a problem solve, either solve it yourself, or at least be willing to gather enough useful information about the specific problem into a specific bug report about it20:29
tomasqdobey: I am reporting all bugs that I am encountering.20:29
tomasqbut as I said previously, developers are focusing on the new features even that they are not necessary instead of fixing bugs. I understand it but I hope that it could change.20:30
dobeyno, developers are focusing on either what they are assigned to focus on (if they are doing the work for employement/contrac), or what they want to work on (if they are doing it as community hobbyist development)20:31
dobeybugs are fixed daily20:32
dobeyjust because they are not your pet bugs, doesn't mean bugs aren't getting fixed20:32
tomasqI know that was the reason why I asked for plans and who is controlling it.20:32
tomasqand I know everybody is doing 100% what he can.20:32
dobeyplans for what?20:32
tomasqplans for success in the desktop field.20:33
dobeythe cloud/server developers have some different plans than the phone or desktop developers, and they have different plans than partners20:33
dobeyubuntu's success will continue to succeed20:33
tomasqwith more projects developer force can't be so strong20:34
dobeyall of the software available in ubuntu is not developed by employees of canonical20:35
tomasqI know.20:35
tomasqBut there are projects like Ubuntu Phone that, if you think realistically, can't be profitable.20:36
dobeythen why do you keep making vague accusatory statements?20:36
dobeyhow do you know it can't be profitable?20:37
dobeyyou've already implemented such platform to its full potential and lost your family's fortune on such a gamble?20:37
tomasqYou can see microsoft with windows phone20:38
tomasqthey have spent incredible money to move it somewhere20:38
dobeymicrosoft making poor business decisions means that somehow ubuntu on phones is doomed to be complete failure too?20:39
tomasqBut you need reallistic view on the situation. If something will not drastically change with Ubuntu Phones, people will not buy it similarly as Android devices. It needs so much money for marketing.20:41
dobeyyour view is no more realistic than anyone elses20:41
tomasqFrom my point of view projects like this are only wasting of money.20:42
tomasqAltough I wish them success.20:42
dobeyare you a cell phone manufacturer?20:42
tomasqno, we are manufacturing other devices.20:42
dobeysigh, my workstation locked up again. bloody graphics drivers20:43
tomasqI am Ubuntu user that wish bigger success in desktop field.20:44
dobeyi just want working 4k@60Hz on intel and working low latency/rt kernel20:46
dobeydo you even have a clear definition of what "success" means there?20:48
tomasqyes, using it in each school and government institutions, promoting it over proprietary software, possibility for buying it preinstalled with computers in each shop20:52
dobeyso then ubuntu is successful.20:53
tomasqIf this is true, then global marketshare could be at least 10%20:55
dobeyubuntu is used in many schools, by many governments and their agencies, and plenty of people promote it ove rproprietary software. and there's this: http://blog.canonical.com/2013/10/01/ubuntu-pre-installed-and-in-retail-worldwide/20:57
dobeyand that blog post is 2 years old20:59
=== ljp is now known as lpotter
* lpotter is excited to start working again21:12
tomasqdobey: it is unfortunately absolutely not enough.21:19
tomasqBy the way, download Ubuntu 6.06 and try it in VirtualBox21:20
tomasqThen download latest Ubuntu and check bootsplash21:20
tomasqYou will see, that 6.06 has nicely working bootsplash21:20
tomasqThen you can compare overall speed21:22
tomasqWith 6.06 any click mean immediate action21:22
dobey6.06 was 10 years ago21:23
dobeyyou might as well say "look at how fast windows 95 is in virtual box, compared to windows 10"21:23
Unit193I was going to say XP, as it's more accurate.21:23
dobeyi guess21:24
lpotterI was going to say DOS boots instantly :)21:24
dobeybut still21:24
dobeyunity requires 3d accel, and to have that working properly requires installing the guest addons21:25
tomasqyes, you are right. But even after installing guest addons it is not comparable.21:26
dobeyUnit193: or i guess vista, since it came out in 06 iirc21:26
maswanAnd if you want a lightweight virtualized desktop ubuntu for, say, a remote graphical session thingie, you might be better off choosing a different option for ubuntu desktop21:26
Unit193OK, lets cheat a little, since that was on GNOME 2, lets say try booting MATE.  You still have so much more driver support and updated security or otherwise...21:26
tomasqYou can compare Ubuntu Mate with 6.0621:26
tomasqStill, 6.06 is extremely fast in comparison with Mate21:27
tomasqhow is it possible?21:27
Unit193From years ago, with security holes up the wazoo, and kernel/driver support hardly existing.21:27
tomasqsecurity holes are not making it faster.21:27
Unit193No, but recommending you not use it.21:29
dobeydo you have specific complaints that are relevant to this channel, or just more vague "i think x is faster than y" stuff for which you don't have a reasonable objective measurement?21:29
maswanNow, if you could make a good regression test suite for desktop fastlyness, that'd be awesome21:29
dobeymaswan: too hardware-dependent21:30
tomasqI just want to show you current development state.21:31
maswandobey: Yeah, probably. But then, so is boot speed, and that was greatly improved thanks to serious effort21:31
tomasqBut it is not only Ubuntu. PulseAudio, SystemD and similar stuff, road to hell.21:31
dobeytomasq: given that i've been sitting in this channel for years, i have a pretty good idea what the current development state is21:31
maswanPersonally, the only bit with noticable latency in my desktop is the web browser, and that is not comparable to one from 0621:32
dobeymaswan: eh, i just watched a 4k video on youtube in the html5 player in firefox, without any issue21:32
tomasqdobey: I understand, I just want to express my feelings, because Ubuntu could be better.21:33
dobeytomasq: can you objectively define "better" in a meaningful way?21:34
dobeyyour anger against pulseaudio and systemd have nothing to do with what is "better"21:34
tomasqdobey: bug-free for daily usage with faster response21:34
dobeycan you define "daily usage" and "faster response" ?21:35
dobeyand it's quicker, not faster :)21:36
tomasqdobey: yes, that you are working and using it each day. For example sometimes you can see random crash and report immediately after bootup. Sometimes system will not halt for 2 minutes, because it is wating for unknown process :)21:36
dobeyno i don't21:36
dobeythat is to say, i don't commonly see such random crashes immediately after boot, nor do i see system not halting for 2 minutes21:37
tomasqit does not mean that others have same experience21:37
dobeythat is exactly my point21:37
tomasqdobey: you can see many bug reports about it21:37
dobeythere are many bugs about many things21:38
tomasqyes, this is wrong state that can't be managed if new and new features are added21:38
dobeyyou are woefully wrong21:38
tomasqof course, if something is rewritten from the base, old bugs will disappear and bunch of new occur21:39
tomasqFor example I dont understand, how Ubuntu want to be stable and fully usable with Mir, if proprietary drivers will be lacking and will never get same priority as major display server that everybody else will be using. There will be so many incompatibilities between Xorg apps that users can forget about outdated software. It will bring another abstract layers and slow downs and many, many new bugs. And what are real benefits for real users that w21:44
dobeyyou're right, you don't understand21:45
tomasqI am developer, I really understand.21:46
tomasqYou will see the impact in the first release with Mir by default.21:46
tomasqWith fallback to Xorg there will be even more fun.21:47
dobeymir is already used by default, and on systems that only have proprietary graphics drivers21:47
dobeythere is no xorg on the phone images21:47
tomasqI am talking about Ubuntu desktop21:47
tomasqMore possibilities and variations = more issues21:49
dobeyyou are making vague conjecture again21:49
dobeyis all you're doing21:49
tomasqIf you have company and you have employees and developing software or hardware, you must know that this is absolutely true.21:52
dobeyno, nothing you've said is absolutely true21:53
tomasqYou will see that anything that is in plan from approx. 2010 will fail if Mark will continue in it. From this time, there are new things that are working, but because of very strong competition, can't succeed.21:57
dobeyso you're just here to troll?21:58
tomasqprobably yes21:59
dobeythen please leave21:59
tomasqOK, please remember my words.21:59
dobeyno need21:59
dobeywell, glad that's over with22:01
* Unit193 waves to dobey.22:01
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