[07:52] <vylu> Hello there. Judging from latest kubuntu ppa plasma5.5.3 release, you indeed need more testers ;) 
[07:52] <soee> :)
[07:55] <vylu> anyone else have suspend/restart/shutdown problems? 
[07:56] <soee> on 5.5.3?
[07:57] <vylu> yep. Also audio problems (no sound). Blank spaces in system tray.. 
[08:02] <vylu> I guess, restart/shutdown problems related to some missing permissions (configuration, etc). These two commands just do logout. 
[08:06] <vylu> Suspend SOMETIMES asks root password. If password is given, computer suspends (but wakes up to text console and then freezes). If password is not given (cancel, etc), then things are getting even worse. KDE still works, but I'm not able to launch programs, etc. Still need to figure out what exactly getting wrong. 
[08:07] <acher88> Not encountered that. either on wily with backports or xenial with updates landing ppa
[08:08] <mart_> Hi! Am I the only one experiencing combobox issues, hard to click (won't stay open), no shadow. Only some comboboxes are affected, for example https://i.gyazo.com/126227833d24ca6331864e8b09a99be3.png This problem existed in previous release too.
[09:26] <lordievader> Good morning.
[10:21] <mparillo> vylu: The shutdown problem (for me at least) was a one-time thing. You have to sudo poweroff from the konsole after you upgrade.
[10:23] <vip> hello
[11:01] <acher88> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/+bug/1536116
[11:02] <acher88> I use the calibre from the devs website which has built in qt, so don't see those qt dep probs
[11:16] <blaze> what's the calibre?
[11:18] <vip> blaze: ebook manager
[11:45] <soee> someone broke libxapian :)
[11:46] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[11:46] <soee> http://paste.ubuntu.com/14581750/
[11:50] <blaze> soee: http://paste.ubuntu.com/14581760/ uhm?
[11:54] <soee> it is libxapian-1.3-5
[12:14] <dunasdan> acher88: I had the same problem yesterday and I solved it by not installing it with the ubuntu packages but with the one-liner onhttp://calibre-ebook.com/download_linux
[12:15] <dunasdan> it should still be fixed in the offical repos tough ;-)
[12:35] <Mirv> yofel: hi! I filed bug #1536169, the omitting of the new script was probably not on purpose?
[12:36] <yofel> Mirv: not that I remember, I'll look at it in a bit. thanks
[12:36] <Mirv> ok
[12:37] <yofel> Mirv: unless you need it right now and want to look at it?
[12:38] <Mirv> yofel: no I don't need it right now so I just filed the bug
[12:39] <yofel> ok
[14:23] <Maxiride> I'm on backports-landing and I've just noticed that in the system tray I've white spaces between the icons. If I right click on the white space the System Tray settings dialog appears, so it's really a white space no invisible app icons
[14:24] <soee_> Maxiride: cache  issue ?
[14:24] <soee_> try: rm ~/.cache/plasma*
[14:26] <Maxiride> done, nothing changed
[14:26] <Maxiride> actually I typed rm -rg 'cause the directory wasn't empty
[14:26] <Maxiride> *-rf
[14:27] <soee_> empty ? no way
[14:27] <soee_> ah sorry
[14:27] <Maxiride> *not empty
[14:28] <soee_> but it shoudl remove files not directory :)
[14:28] <soee_> Maxiride: try resizing a bit panel
[14:28] <Maxiride> sudo rm ~/.cache/plasma* gave me " Unable to remove /home/federico/.cache/plasmashell: it's a direcotry"
[14:29] <clivejo> stupid plasma panel keeps moving!
[14:29] <Maxiride> soee_: resing works fine, but the white spaces are resized too accordingly
[14:29] <soee_> Maxiride: ah ok, so there was one plasma* folder inside
[14:29] <clivejo> Im not liking this release :/
[14:29] <soee_> Maxiride: can you take a screenshot ?
[14:29] <Maxiride> soee_: rm: impossibile rimuovere "/home/federico/.cache/plasmashell": È una directory
[14:30] <Maxiride> sure
[14:30] <Maxiride> is there something like paste to upload it?
[14:31] <yofel> clivejo: join the club
[14:31] <soee_> not sure if there is command, use some web hosting service, imgur or wstaw.org
[14:31] <yofel> but I did see those empty space myself.
[14:31] <soee_> :?
[14:32] <yofel> *spaces
[14:32] <clivejo> whats going on with it, seems to be regressing rather than going forward
[14:32] <yofel> no, just lots of bugs. 
[14:32] <soee_> Plasma devs say, that 5.6 shoudl be cool release :)
[14:33] <Maxiride> soee_: http://imgur.com/RKy6hGZ
[14:33] <yofel> soee_: do they same the same if you use qt5.5? ^^
[14:33] <yofel> which reminds me..
[14:33] <soee_> Maxiride: you meen this missing icons ?
[14:33] <soee_> yofel: ?
[14:34] <soee_> say the same ?
[14:34] <Maxiride> soee_: yeah you see there is a white space between the wifi icon and the little ed robot icon. They are all in the system tray.
[14:34] <yofel> soee_: didn't they say that qt5.5 is hoplessly buggy?
[14:34] <Maxiride> *little red
[14:34] <soee_> Maxiride: this is know issue :/
[14:34] <soee_> yofel: i know that :D
[14:34] <Maxiride> soee_: uh, sorry then to bother with it!
[14:35] <soee_> Maxiride: it will gone if you open Systray Settings 
[14:35] <mamarley> What about that deal ScottK was talking about where the phone people would put their Qt in /opt as to not hold back Kubuntu?
[14:35] <soee_> than uncheck Network Manager, Audio, apply settings and enable them again
[14:35] <ScottK> The phone people aren't in charge of Ubuntu.
[14:35] <ScottK> Go talk to slangasek.
[14:35] <soee_> this is related to bug in QT from what i remember - some sorting stuff
[14:36] <yofel> Mirv: what are our chances to get qt5.6 in xenial after all? We have several bugs in plasma where kde folks simply tell us "Update to qt 5.6". Also, there was a discussion about phone shipping their own Qt?http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2016/01/16/%23kubuntu-devel.html#t23:34 
[14:36] <Maxiride> soee_: Nope, opened it, nothing changed. Anyway I can live with it till the bugfix ;)
[14:37] <soee_> Maxiride: you have to disable some items and enable them again
[14:37] <Maxiride> soee_: ah sorry didn't read the second message xD
[14:37] <soee_> the bug is related to: https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-48870
[14:37] <Maxiride> yeah solved
[14:37] <mamarley> yofel: Maybe you should talk to slangasek about it?
[14:38] <soee_> yofel: if neon has own QT builds, can't we use them ?
[14:38] <yofel> mamarley: he's not the Qt maintainer, so lets talk to him once we still get a No
[14:39] <mamarley> OK
[14:41] <yofel> soee_: that wouldn't really help, and debian has pretty up-to-date packages as well that are usually used as base
[14:41] <soee_> so ubuntu uses different version than debian ?
[14:42] <yofel> no
[14:51] <ScottK> Ubuntu doesn't have individual maintainers ...
[14:53] <yofel> well no, but you usually talk to the person doing most of the work...
[14:54] <soee_> so where is the problem? ubuntu uses some old QT version because .. ? :)
[14:55] <yofel> soee_: so, the last attempt at testing the qt 5.6 pre-release ended up with lots of stuff being broken. Since then nobody has looked at it again
[14:55] <yofel> soee_: and Qt5.5 is the *current* release. Qt 5.6 comes out in 3 weeks or so
[14:56] <yofel> because they had to delay the release a lot
[14:56] <soee_> yup iv seend new date
[15:01] <soee_> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1511/meeting/22570/qt-for-1604-lts/
[15:04] <ScottK> Don't think "We had a UOS session" on Qt counts for much if no one from Kubuntu was there.
[15:10] <BluesKaj_> getting this error https://paste.kde.org/pi63dxkpq any ideas?
[15:10] <soee_> BluesKaj_: have the same
[15:11] <soee_> i just used force overwrite
[15:11] <soee_> *not sure though if it was smart move :)
[15:12] <BluesKaj_> what's the force overwrite command again , I haven't used it or yrs 
[15:12] <soee_> i run: sudo apt-get -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-overwrite" -f install
[15:15] <yofel> bug 1536206
[15:17] <soee_> ok i added myself as affected by it
[15:19] <BluesKaj_> soee_, thanks
[15:20] <Mirv> yofel: currently it looks that not much chances, 5.6.0 will be released either very near or after the feature freeze, and it's a feature freeze for an LTS. if they would have released in October or December like originally planned it'd be different, we could have 5.6.1 by now. there are many cherry-picks being done to 5.5 however, and it's probably recommended because of the uncertainty around 5.6.
[15:23] <soee_> but isn't QT 5.6 LTS release ?
[15:23] <soee_> i think it would be much netter to have it in 16.04 :)
[15:24] <Mirv> it would fit in well, true, but upstream LTS .0 release is still a .0 release, and we don't have eg exception for having Qt 5.6.x releases as SRU:s and historically those have had regressions too (and are pretty big in the first place)
[15:24] <Mirv> Qt 5.6.2 would be very good for 16.04 LTS in an alternate universe however!
[15:25] <soee_> :D
[15:25] <yofel> wouldn't cherry-picking fixes onto 5.6 work? (I do have to agree on the regression side)
[15:25] <Mirv> there will surely be 5.6 PPA at minimum
[15:27] <Mirv> it depends on how much the 5.6.0 will lack or if it's more like "please just upgrade to 5.6.1" answer to bugs and no easy cherry picks. the 5.5.1 accumulated 3.5 months of changes and we never did get enough cherry-picks done for 5.5.0 in order to be happy with it.
[15:27] <yofel> :/
[15:28]  * yofel hears a "please update" echo
[15:29] <soee_> so 16.04 will never officially get 5.6 ?
[15:29] <Mirv> anyway it's quite impossible to say "yes 5.6 will be in 16.04" since they don't commit to any specific release date. if there's just one more week delay to come (not unusual), we're practically past feature freeze before packaging and building can start, which might take a week or so at minimum (sans unexpected build failures)
[15:29] <yofel> yeah
[15:30] <Mirv> soee_: I'd love to land it as SRU but I doubt we can convince enough people that 5.5.1 -> 5.6 will be a safe SRU
[15:31]  * soee_ thinks we need some lobby team :D
[15:31] <yofel> which curiously is a very ubuntu-unusal way to do things... As we're used to ubuntu teams filing FFE's for everything and pushing stuff to the archive a week before final freeze ^^
[15:33] <blaze> no chances for qt5.6 in xenial, that's right
[15:35] <Mirv> it would require FFe in any scenario, but for LTS FFe:s are also (or at least should be) a bit harder. if 5.6.0 is a really solid release from initial weeks of testing then maybe at end of Feb / beginning of March. 5.3.0 was pretty solid. (5.2.0, 5.4.0, 5.5.0 not so)
[15:42] <yofel> Ok, so lets revisit that in a ~month or so. Maybe we can also track down the qtbugs for issues relevant for us and cherry pick those
[15:42] <yofel> thanks in any case
[16:11] <BluesKaj_> the force overwrite command on my laptop doesn't work with tha t xapian block
[16:12] <BluesKaj_> dependency
[16:12] <BluesKaj_> worked here on the desktop just fine
[16:17] <soee> medd sddm does not work on Intel profile :/
[16:19] <yofel> what?!?
[16:32] <blaze> can someone package kdev-python3 btw?
[16:33] <vylu> btw, what output do you get from "loginctl show-session <session_id> when using SDDM 0.13.0? for me it shows "Active=no" "Status=online". With SDDM 0.11.0 everything is OK. 
[16:34] <vylu> I suspect bug in SDDM /systemd-login or somewhere, but not sure, maybe I'm the only one with such problems. 
[16:40] <yofel> blaze: please file a packaging request
[16:41] <clivejo> how does one file a package request?
[16:42] <blaze> via launchpad I guess
[16:42] <yofel> blaze: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages
[16:43] <yofel> please also add the 'kubuntu' tag, so it shows up on our todo list
[16:44] <BluesKaj> so how do we get past this libxapian dependency blockage? , the force overwrite worked on my desktop , but not on the laptop
[16:45] <blaze> okay
[16:52] <acher88> BluesKaj: On xenial I did http://paste.ubuntu.com/14583222/
[16:52] <acher88> which seemed to work around it
[16:54] <clivejo> yofel: you online later?
[16:54] <yofel> clivejo: probably
[17:03] <BluesKaj> acher88, thanks dpkg -P libxapian-1.3-4 worked on the laptop :-)
[17:03] <snele> this should be fixed for 16.04 :)
[17:03] <snele> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-settings/+bug/1490618
[17:04] <snele> to have plasmoid working "out of box" from kde-look
[17:04] <snele> *plasmoids
[17:04] <yofel> milestone updated
[17:11] <soee> yofel: if i try to switch to Intel profile, i have black screen instead of sddm
[17:15] <yofel> file a bug report
[17:15] <yofel> could be the same problem that other intel users run into
[17:18] <soee> this would be sddm bug ?
[17:21] <blaze> can't see broken libxapian in the updates, probably removed
[17:23] <yofel> already fixed I believe
[17:23] <soee> blaze: i forced update, and after that there was some newer version available
[17:23] <yofel> soee: no idea without actual logs
[17:23] <soee> so probably new verion hits you
[17:23] <yofel> but as I have optimus as well I might be able to reproduce that over the weekend
[17:23] <soee> yofel: ok
[17:24] <yofel> anyone else having a broken screenlock after wakeup from suspend? I get a message on the screen that the screelock is broken and that I should unlock the session using loginctl
[17:27] <soee> Quintasan: ^ you had this problems ?
[17:29] <yofel> that's on xenial. Seems to work fine on wily
[17:30] <yofel> didn't really try to debug it yet
[17:30] <mamarley> soee: Regarding your sddm problem, can you try with an NVIDIA driver from the 358 series?  I think I might know what is going on here.
[17:31] <soee> mamarley: try to switch to Intel when running 358 ?
[17:31] <mamarley> soee: Yes.
[17:32] <soee> ok, give me few minutes
[17:35] <soee> brb ill reboot
[17:38] <soee> mamarley: ping
[17:39] <mamarley> soee: Switching sonar to active! PONGPONGPONGPONG!
[17:39] <mamarley> soee: Did it work?
[17:41] <soee> yofel, mamarley: the situation is: i have installed 358 without purging current version, just did apt-get install nvidia-358. Then i rebooted. Than i switched to Intel profile through Nvidia Settings and logout - sddm showed up (so here it works). Than i tried to login ... 10 times without success (after entering password iv seen command line screen for 1 second and i was moved back to sddm). So i rebooted and now wfter third attempt i was 
[17:41] <soee> able to login and i'm on Intel profile.
[17:42] <yofel> o.O
[17:43] <mamarley> soee: I think I know what is going on here.  Starting with 361, the packaging for the NVIDIA driver enables the NVIDIA EGL library, and I don't think the Optimus thing accounts for that.  It shouldn't be too hard to add though, let me check...
[17:43] <soee> mamarley: ok :)
[17:44] <acher88> yofel: no problem unlocking after resume so far with xenial packages
[17:44] <yofel> k, thanks
[17:44] <acher88> only tried couple of times though, as dont normally have that set
[17:45] <soee> yofel: does the log history says anything important when it comes to sddm: http://paste.ubuntu.com/14583546/ ?
[17:45] <soee> this one is syslog
[17:46] <soee> there is often sddm, sddm-helper or sddm-greater mentioned
[17:47] <yofel> nothing particulary unusual
[17:47] <soee> yofel: http://paste.ubuntu.com/14583564/
[17:48] <soee> sddm-helper	pam_systemd(sddm-greeter:session): Cannot create session: Already running in a session
[17:49] <soee> some error also: [system] Rejected send message, 10 matched rules; type="method_return", sender=":1.25" (uid=0 pid=1514 comm="/usr/sbin/dnsmasq --no-resolv --keep-in-foreground") interface="(unset)" member="(unset)" error name="(unset)" requested_reply="0" destination=":1.6" (uid=0 pid=846 comm="/usr/sbin/NetworkManager --no-daemon ")
[17:52] <vip> hello, anybody with wily&plasma 5.5? I cannot resize desktop widgets (applets), the handler does not even shows for 2/3 widgets
[17:53] <soee> vip: do you hover widget for a 3-5 seconds ?
[17:54] <snele> soee: there is new bug with breeze sddm theme and intel graphics so I don't know if you have affected because you have optimus
[17:54] <snele> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=358171
[17:54] <vip> soee: hover does not work, I've to click&hold for few seconds
[17:55] <snele> vip: to resize widget in 5.5 you have to click and hold on widget to see the handler
[17:55] <soee> i do not have to click on widget, just hover it, but i have only clock on desktop so it mith be auto focused
[17:55] <snele> and thats not a bug, that is the feature in 5.5
[17:55] <vip> great
[17:56] <soee> vip: do you have maybe hold and drag feature enabled ? (Desktop Settings -> Extras)
[17:56] <soee> snele: i see only one instance of sddm here
[17:57] <snele> vip: right click on desktop>desktop settings>tweaks tab. here you have option about resizing widgets
[17:58] <vip> snele: thank you, checked by default
[17:58] <vip> But I really like that feature, the problem is, it is default, and hard to guess
[17:59] <snele> vip: yea and its very very UNintuitive
[17:59] <vip> and I don't really know what's the point of click&hold, because you've got locked your desktop like 99% time
[17:59] <vip> ok, but thank you snele, soee
[18:08] <vip> and do you have bug on tray, when some icons are empty?
[18:11] <soee> yes
[18:11] <soee> this is partially related to QT bug
[18:11] <vip> does something else that logout/login helps for you?
[18:12] <vip> or killing plasmashell (not always work)
[18:12] <soee> open systray properties, disable network manager and audio entries, apply changes and enable them again
[18:12] <vip> soee: temporary fix or permanent?
[18:13] <soee> temporary workaround not fix
[18:13] <vip> so it is easier to kill plasma and start it again
[18:30] <Odur> Shouldn't topic say "Apps 15.12.1" now?
[18:31] <soee> Odur: nope
[18:31] <soee> there is some mix i think
[18:33] <Odur> soee: Ok, just wondered because build status isn't updated in two days for 15.12.0. I thought you had moved on to .1
[18:33] <yofel> the status page tracks .1 now
[18:34] <yofel> I just didn't update the topic because we're more working on merges than .1 really
[18:34] <Odur> yofel: I see. One more question. Why aren't spectacle and kde-l10n in ppa?
[18:35] <yofel> kde-l10n shouldn't even be listed, spectacle isn't packaged
[18:35] <Odur> yofel: Thanks for clarification :)
[18:40] <mamarley> soee: I have just uploaded to ppa:mamarley/staging a new version of ubuntu-drivers-common which should in theory fix your sddm black screen on Intel issue.  I haven't the foggiest clue if it actually works though since I don't have an Optimus system.
[19:47] <soee> mamarley: ill check it
[19:51] <mamarley> Thanks for guinea-pigging! :)
[20:08] <soee> mamarley: after adding your ppa, on nvidia profiel i had black screen where sddm should be, and on intel profile white screen (all tested on 361). Purging your ppa changed nothing, i had to switch to 358 and now i am able to login
[20:11] <mamarley> soee: Argh, OK.  If you want to install 361 again and have it work, you should be able to install 361 and then remove the nvidia-related alternatives for x86_64-linux-gnu_egl_conf.
[20:11] <soee> mamarley: how can i remove those alternatives ?
[20:12] <mamarley> soee: The easiest way is to use the "galternatives" program.
[20:13] <soee> uhm, it ask for a password when i run it an then is gone :)
[20:13] <soee> (gksu:3744): GConf-CRITICAL **: gconf_value_free: assertion 'value != NULL' failed
[20:13] <mamarley> I guess try running it "sudo galternatives" from the command line.  It works fine here; that's weird.
[20:14] <soee> ok now runing it from krunner worked
[20:14] <mamarley> But you need to remove the alternative after you install the 361 driver, otherwise it will get added back.
[20:14] <mamarley> And then run "sudo ldconfig"
[20:14] <soee> now i see no nvidia entry on the list
[20:15] <mamarley> soee: Do you see "x86_64-linux-gnu_egl_conf" in the left column?
[20:15] <soee> ah yes, one entry inside
[20:15] <soee> mesa stuff
[20:16] <mamarley> soee: Which version of the NVIDIA driver do you have installed?
[20:16] <soee> 358, upgrading to 361
[20:17] <mamarley> OK, check again after upgrading and then remove the nvidia-related alternatives for x86_64-linux-gnu_egl_conf.
[20:17] <soee> yes they already are there
[20:17] <soee> 2 entries
[20:17] <soee> i should be interested in *egl_conf only ?
[20:17] <mamarley> Remove both of them and then sddm should work fine for both nvidia and intel.
[20:17] <soee> ignore entries in*_gl_conf ?
[20:17] <mamarley> soee: Yes, don't touch the regular gl one.
[20:18] <soee> ok, let me reboot
[20:19] <soee> mamarley: ok, login on nvidia profile works fine :)
[20:20] <mamarley> When I get home I will put my laptop in Optimus mode and see if I can figure out why the ubuntu-drivers-common thing didn't work.
[20:21] <soee> mamarley: ok, tell me than how it was on your machine :) thanks for your time
[20:23] <soee> !kalternatives
[20:24] <soee> !package kalternatives
[20:25] <mamarley> soee: How do you switch between NVIDIA and Intel modes?
[20:25] <soee> mamarley: when DE works, using Nvidia Settings gui, otherwise cli - prime-select
[20:26] <mamarley> OK, thanks!
[20:26] <mamarley> (My laptop has a hardware mux, so I had never tried this before.)
[20:26] <soee> hmm system installs kalternatives yet it can't find it after ..
[20:30] <soee> ha got it!
[20:31] <soee> kcmshell4 kalternatives
[20:31] <soee> qt gui for managing alternatives
[20:48] <clivejo> yofel: pingu
[21:01] <yofel> clivejo: hm?
[21:02] <clivejo> time to go through a merge with me?
[21:24] <yofel> clivejo: not today, sorry. Taking care of some stuff then I have to clean the apartment. I'll be home tomorrow evening and should get back to merges then
[21:25] <clivejo> ok, Im watching Pingu
[21:25] <soee> yofel: 5.5.3 announcement ? :)
[21:25] <clivejo> very entertaining
[21:26] <soee> sorry for bothering again but i like when everything is handled to the end :D
[21:27] <yofel> sure, me too, but that also includes more fixing, so I'll do that tomorrow I guess
[21:27] <clivejo> who dirtied the apartment?
[21:27] <soee> ah ok, i thought all is already fine with packages
[21:36] <amichair> to whom it may concern: since I got the plasma 5.5.1 update from the ppa yesterday, vlc is broken - this wordaround works for now: https://www.reddit.com/r/VLC/comments/3oyjl8/vlc_crops_video_into_a_corner_no_setting_correct/?ref=readnext_0
[21:37] <amichair> (on 15.10)
[21:37] <soee> 5.5.3 i would say :)
[21:38] <amichair> it's the latest available one in the ppa...
[21:39] <amichair> btw plasma 5 still crashes all the time. it's been pretty bad. one user I got onto kubuntu a few years ago who was pleased with it since then, recently moved back to windows due to how unstable and broken kde 5/plasma 5 was :-/
[21:46] <ScottK> amichair: That sounds like someone who should have been running an LTS release.
[22:01] <mparillo> I followed this thread: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=207705&p=2 and tried to change my login theme (System Settings > Startup and Shutdown > Login Screen (SDDM)), but I cannot pick that option (using Plasma 5.5.3 on Xenial).
[22:08] <acher88> mparrilo: why? what happens when you try?
[22:10] <acher88> !package sddm-theme-maui
[22:13] <acher88> That maui one and a couple I pinched off chakra seems to work here
[22:14] <acher88> for that matter, breeze works.
[22:14] <acher88> On a VM though. Have lightdm still on my real machines
[22:15] <mparillo> acher88: I click on it and nothing happens. I can click on the other three options. I just checked on Manjaro (where the multiple login occurs much worse), and I can change themes. Note this does not occur on a VM, only on real HW (and to read the threads Intel HW).
[22:16] <mparillo> I switched to Maui on Manjaro, but have not re-booted.
[22:17] <acher88> ah. not that specifically, but similar strangeness with sddm is why I stuck with lightdm on real hardware
[22:26] <mparillo> LightDM was great for me because it came with a guest login.
[22:27] <amichair> ScottK: Possibly. Though being stuck with old versions of some applications was also problematic.