[00:07] <ogra_> shadeslayer, ah, thats good, i wont have much time for IRC this week
[00:08] <ogra_> (sorry for not replying yet .... )
[00:08]  * ogra_ is at SCaLE
[01:21] <strixdio> ogra_: I think the Linux Action Show will be at SCALE
[01:21] <strixdio> ogra_: If you're not familiar with them, I'd suggest stopping by and saying hello to "Chris" and "Noah".
[01:21] <strixdio> :)
[06:40] <layan> hey
[06:41] <lotuspsychje> layan: ask your phone problems here
[06:41] <layan> I want install Ubuntu touch for Nexus4
[06:41] <lotuspsychje> layan: look in the topic, howto
[08:23] <Nyms> Hello
[08:23] <Nyms> Is david planella member of this chanel ??
[09:07] <MCMic> Hello
[09:08] <MCMic> Do any of you know of XMPP clients projects for ubuntu touch? Is there anything under development? (Same question for IRC client, maybe something empathy/telepathy based?)
[09:11] <davmor2> MCMic: didn't you ask this like the other day and get told NO
[09:11] <MCMic> davmor2: maybe
[09:11] <Stanley00> MCMic: I found this on ubuntu ask, cannot confirm though http://askubuntu.com/questions/641718/ubuntu-phone-is-anyone-planing-on-making-a-messenger-for-xmpp
[09:11] <MCMic> davmor2: It’s a question I’ve got on my mind, I may have asked already and forgot about it ^^
[09:13] <MCMic> davmor2: Yeah, saw this, but the loqui.im effort seems indeed stalled.
[09:13] <davmor2> MCMic: haha, Yeah so there are plans to make the messaging app more encompassing but it is a low priority for right now getting everything working well is the aim for now adding features should then be fairly trivial
[09:13] <davmor2> MCMic: that was Stanley00 not me :)
[09:13] <MCMic> Stanley00: no davmor2, sorry
[09:14] <MCMic> davmor2: What is used by default for instant messaging on Ubuntu desktop? Pidgin or empathy?
[09:15] <davmor2> MCMic: empathy but to be honest it kinda sucks for irc so most people install something else for that
[09:16] <MCMic> ok
[09:17] <Stanley00> MCMic: there're also two other project on github, and both of them haven't update in the last two years.... so, probably, no is the right answer here
[09:28] <jibel> rbasak, hey, do you have the script you mention in https://bugs.launchpad.net/canonical-devices-system-image/+bug/1471913/comments/56 ?
[10:01] <JamesTait> Good morning all!  Happy Friday, and happy Answer Your Cats' Questions Day! 😃  🐈
[10:11] <zetheroo> I just installed Ubuntu Touch (stable channel) to my Nexus 4 and I gotta say ... the Install guide from Ubuntu is superb!!
[10:13] <lotuspsychje> !yay | zetheroo
[10:13] <zetheroo> Setting Ubuntu Touch up for the very first time now ... got signed in with Ubuntu One creds and installed some updates
[10:13] <zetheroo> this is awesome!!
[10:13] <zetheroo> :D
[10:13] <zetheroo> It's a bit slower than Android - but I guess that's to be expected ... (!?)
[10:14] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: wich channel are you on?
[10:15] <zetheroo> stable
[10:15] <zetheroo> Ubuntu Touch version 26 I think
[10:15] <lotuspsychje> not sure wich channel is recommended for nexus4
[10:15] <lotuspsychje> ask around here
[10:16] <zetheroo> I think it's the stable one ... https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/start/ubuntu-for-devices/image-channels/
[10:16] <MCMic> Is there any way to browse ubuntu-touch store from a computer? (some web version?)
[10:17] <zetheroo> I am a bit confused about Scopes vs Apps ... It says on my device that I have Gmail App installed, but when I start it it looks more like just the webpage sign-in
[10:17] <zzarr> MCMic, https://uappexplorer.com/apps
[10:17] <zetheroo> https://uappexplorer.com/apps
[10:17] <zetheroo> :)
[10:18] <MCMic> Thanks
[10:19] <MCMic> Yay, there is even a filter option for opensource
[10:19] <MCMic> Wish there was this on the phone
[10:20] <MCMic> What are «Snappy apps»'
[10:20] <MCMic> ?
[10:21] <MCMic> Hum uappexplorer can be installed on the phone :-)
[10:23] <zetheroo> MCMic: nice
[10:24] <zzarr> No problem MCMic
[10:24] <MCMic> And it can filter by author, I’m in love with this store :-)
[10:26] <zetheroo> so are Scopes preferred by Ubuntu Touch over Apps?
[10:26] <zzarr> zetheroo, it's up to you
[10:27] <zzarr> zetheroo, what do you want to do?
[10:28] <zetheroo> I would like to setup my email (gmail and work email) but the Gmail thing installed by default doesn't really look like an App - more like a link to the web
[10:29] <zetheroo> I am guessing it's just a link to the browser !?
[10:29] <zzarr> I would (or have I should say) install dekko, a splendid mail client
[10:29] <zetheroo> ok
[10:31] <zetheroo> Is there then a way to have a scope that shows LIVE info on the emails inbox? (Like with Android there are those widgets on the screen which show the email inbox etc...)
[10:35] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: gmail scope?
[10:35] <robin-hero> zetheroo, +1 for Dekko
[10:36] <lotuspsychje> anyone getting sound notifications on dekko on new email?
[10:36] <zetheroo> lotuspsychje: ok, so are scopes more or less similar to widgets in that they are basically for LIVE consumption of content?
[10:37] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: well scopes is really ubuntu touch specific in this case
[10:38] <zetheroo> right - but is their function similar to widgets, as in they aren't full-blown Apps but more the way in which one can view LIVE information from installed Apps?
[10:39] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: well there are different kind of scopes really, some work as a shell for an app, others spam rss feeds,etc
[10:40] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: test a few scopes from the ubuntu store
[10:41] <zetheroo> ok
[10:41] <zetheroo> So there is no "Desktop" screen as such ... the Scopes are the "Desktop" - is that right?
[10:42] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: the apps scope can be your first home screen, or not
[10:42] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: you to decide how
[10:42] <DanChapman> lotuspsychje, dekko doesn't have notifications yet due to it being confined. Work is on going to get a solution
[10:42] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: i like a combo with scopes and apps
[10:43] <lotuspsychje> DanChapman: thanks for the headsup :p
[10:45] <zetheroo> does dekko run in the background even after it's "quit" ?
[10:46] <DanChapman> zetheroo, unfortunately not. The application lifecycle doesn't allow it.
[10:47] <MCMic> DanChapman: Is there a solution on its way for this as well?
[10:48] <zetheroo> DanChapman: ok, but while it's open is it at least LIVE - as in, will it get new emails without the user having to manually check?
[10:49] <DanChapman> MCMic I don't think app suspension is ever likely to change unless you use tools like tweakgeek to modify that behaviour
[10:50] <MCMic> hum… But at some point we are going to need a way for app to being able to fetch things in the background
[10:51] <MCMic> It’s not only useful for mails
[10:51] <DanChapman> zetheroo, It's live only while dekko is in the foreground. And will fetch mail as it arrives on the server.
[10:51] <MCMic> I need to go
[10:51] <MCMic> see ya
[10:52] <zetheroo>  DanChapman: so if I am not viewing the app on the screen it's not checking for email?
[10:54] <DanChapman> zetheroo, yeah it can't check for new mail as it's been suspended
[10:55] <zetheroo> Ok, well I just did a test by sending an email to myself from the laptop and seeing how the Ubuntu phone reacts - and it's basically nothing - no alerts at all
[10:56] <zetheroo> I had the phone on the default screen (Apps snope) and had the Gmail snope installed and setup as well as dekko setup and "running" on the launcher
[10:57] <zetheroo> The gmail snope is totally useless as even when you manually switch to it it still doesn't update
[10:57] <zetheroo> you have to change it to "All mail" for it to update :P
[10:58] <DanChapman> That's right as there was nothing running on the phone to create the notification and you email server didn't send a push notification (Note: no email server supports this). It's not that dekko can't generate notifications the platform just prevents it
[10:59] <zetheroo> Is there an Ubuntu-supported way for managing email?
[10:59] <zetheroo> something that is LIVE all the time ..
[11:00] <zetheroo> I mean do people using Ubuntu Touch on phones atm get by with manually checking their email every x minutes?
[11:01] <zetheroo> or does nobody currently really use it their primary mobile device ..
[11:03] <DanChapman> Well for gmail there is a polling service that works with the webapp and checks for new mail and creates notifications. AFAIK it works (don't use it myself) Check you have it enabled in system settings.
[11:04] <zetheroo> the webapp ... is that the one on the fresh install?
[11:04] <zetheroo> there is also a webapp called Inbox
[11:05] <DanChapman> Yeah the default gmail webapp you get out of the box.
[11:06] <zetheroo> ok
[11:07] <zetheroo> I like dekko MUCH better, but without it being live and notifying it's not much use to me I am afraid :P
[11:09] <DanChapman> I agree it's a real limiting factor which affects the experience. Hopefully should have something to get notifications soon though, you can follow https://bugs.launchpad.net/dekko/+bug/1421923 to keep tabs on progress
[11:10] <zetheroo> DanChapman: awesome - thanks!
[11:13] <zetheroo> ok, I just tested again with the default Gmail webapp running - it seems to have gotten the email right away but there was no notification at all
[11:13] <zetheroo> no sound or popup
[11:13] <zetheroo> notification settings show it's enable
[11:14] <DanChapman> THe polling service runs at 5 minute intervals to check for new mail so you may not get it instantly
[11:14] <zetheroo> ah ok
[11:15] <zetheroo> will try again then and leave it for 5 min ...
[11:15] <zetheroo> my Nexus 5 gets it instantly :)
[11:16] <DanChapman> If it still doesn't work I would suggest filing a bug against accounts-polld https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/account-polld.
[11:17] <zetheroo> ok
[11:19] <zetheroo> well a message notification came - no sound though ...
[11:24] <zetheroo> is there a way to sync Google Photos to the Gallery?
[11:28] <rbasak> jibel: yes, though it is a big hack.
[11:28] <rbasak> Let me upload it somewhere for you.
[11:29] <zetheroo> One thing I am seeing is that the launcher gets crowded very quickly ... any way to group app icons together?
[11:36] <jibel> rbasak, thanks.
[11:37] <rbasak> jibel: https://git.launchpad.net/~racb/+git/drain
[11:38] <rbasak> jibel: there aren't any instructions, sorry. Run "python3 drain.py" from an ssh client (or something else that won't cause it to be frozen in the background, so not the Terminal app).
[11:38] <rbasak> You can background it (ie. python3 drain.py&)
[11:39] <rbasak> It will create a "report" every five minutes, which you can tweak by editing add-report.sh
[11:39] <rbasak> If the phone is asleep, it will do it on wakeup, but won't cause any additional wakeups, so may be a little late.
[11:39] <rbasak> add-report.sh may be a little hardcoded for the Aquaris 4.5.
[11:42] <jibel> rbasak, thank you, it's definitely useful.
[11:48] <rbasak> jibel: np. I pushed a README.
[12:01] <tathhu> morning
[12:39] <zetheroo> seems like GPS doesn't work on the Nexus 4 :P
[12:39] <zetheroo> at least not in uNav
[12:45] <robin-hero> zetheroo, which channel are you using?
[12:46] <zetheroo> the one it says to use here https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/start/ubuntu-for-devices/image-channels/
[12:46] <lotus|xenial> zetheroo: ask dobey wich channel runs best on n4
[12:46] <robin-hero> zetheroo, this is the problem
[12:46] <zetheroo> ?
[12:47] <robin-hero> The HERE AGPS fix isn't included that channel
[12:47] <robin-hero> you need to use ubuntu-touch/stable/bq-aquaris.en (it works for N4 too
[12:48] <zetheroo> so I have to reinstall Ubuntu Touch?
[12:48] <robin-hero> I've been using that channel on my N4 for months
[12:48] <robin-hero> no, you can reflash it without data loss
[12:48] <tathhu> robin-hero, k4xx works with bluez5, but still no bt on nexus 7 :(
[12:49] <lotus|xenial> tathhu: maybe ota9?
[12:49] <zetheroo> if the 'fix' for GPS is in the other channel and it works with the nexus 4, why isn't the 'fix' also in the nexus 4 channel?
[12:49] <zetheroo> (or is that channel just a generic channel?)
[12:50] <tathhu> lotus|xenial, nope, it just stays off while it works on android.. :l
[12:50] <robin-hero> zetheroo, yes
[12:50] <robin-hero> zetheroo, ubuntu-device-flash touch --channel=ubuntu-touch/stable/bq-aquaris.en
[12:50] <zetheroo> ok
[12:50] <robin-hero> zetheroo, but do a backup just to be sure :)
[12:51] <zetheroo>  robin-hero: if I don't care about the data on the phone do i have to backup?
[12:52] <robin-hero> No in that case, and it should work without data loss (I did that more than 50 times :D)
[12:53] <tathhu> ähhhh
[12:53] <zetheroo> do I have to fastboot reboot first?
[12:54] <zetheroo> "device cannot be detected over adb"
[12:54] <robin-hero> no
[12:54] <robin-hero> but you need to enable developer mode
[12:54] <robin-hero> fist
[12:54] <robin-hero> in System Settings
[12:54] <robin-hero> About the Phone / Developer Mode
[12:55] <zetheroo> I already have that enabled
[12:55] <tathhu> have you tried rebooting? :P
[12:55] <tathhu> (usb cable)
[12:55] <zetheroo> now it started but then says "error pushing"
[12:56] <robin-hero> zetheroo, try to disconnect and reconnect USB cable
[12:56] <zetheroo> k
[12:56] <robin-hero> or try another port
[12:56] <zetheroo> well adb devices shows its there
[12:56] <davmor2> zetheroo: do you have the device unlocked and if you are on 14.04 are you all up-to-date so the udev rules are in place for the device?
[12:56] <jgdx> zetheroo, the phone needs to be unlocked
[12:57] <jgdx> listen to davmor2 is also a good tip
[12:57] <robin-hero> oh, yes you need to unlock the phone with swipe and passcode or passphase
[12:57] <zetheroo> I did this just a couple hours ago https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/start/ubuntu-for-devices/installing-ubuntu-for-devices/
[12:57] <zetheroo> so whatever is there for the install I did
[12:57] <zetheroo> robin-hero: I am looking at the Apps screen on the phone
[12:58] <zetheroo> so it's unocked
[12:58] <robin-hero> and is it still not working?
[12:58] <zetheroo> error pushing
[12:58] <robin-hero> Did you try another USB port on your computer/laptop?
[12:59] <zetheroo> yes
[13:00] <zetheroo> I will reboot the phone again ..
[13:00] <robin-hero> could you show the full error message? (use pastebin.ubuntu.com)
[13:01] <zetheroo> going to switch PC (chatting from another one)
[13:02] <zetheroo1> http://paste.ubuntu.com/14597420/
[13:03] <zetheroo1> adb devices shows :  0171a30ed94cb3e4	device
[13:04] <zetheroo1> after phone reboot it's the same
[13:04] <robin-hero> zetheroo1, hmm, your computer sees your devices (mako), the problem is somewhere else
[13:05] <robin-hero> try to delete the image cache: rm -rf .cache/ubuntuimages/
[13:05] <robin-hero> and try again
[13:06] <zetheroo1> I don't need to be booted into the phones bootloader do I?
[13:07] <robin-hero> no, that is not necessary
[13:07] <zetheroo1> ok... now it seems to be doing something after deleting the cache
[13:07] <zetheroo1> do I have to keep the phone awake?
[13:07] <robin-hero> it redownloads the images first
[13:08] <robin-hero> zetheroo1, not sure about that, but I say yes :)
[13:08] <zetheroo1> k
[13:09] <zetheroo1> will my phone end up with two images on it?
[13:09] <robin-hero> no
[13:13] <robin-hero> any progress? :)
[13:14] <zetheroo1> just finished downloading
[13:14] <zetheroo1> 2016/01/22 14:14:00 Start pushing /home/zeth/.cache/ubuntuimages/pool/ubuntu-0612f1183b56c12bfb61e9a2dd122714567c6083dc65b7204e3e26a4deb21c18.tar.xz to device
[13:15] <zetheroo1> 2016/01/22 14:15:26 Rebooting into recovery to flash
[13:15] <robin-hero> yeah :)
[13:16] <robin-hero> there will be an error message in a few seconds
[13:16] <robin-hero> but that doesn't matter
[13:16] <zetheroo1> on the phone?
[13:16] <robin-hero> no, in the terminal
[13:16] <zetheroo1> terminal is back to prompt ... no error
[13:16] <robin-hero> hmm, did your phone reboot?
[13:16] <zetheroo1> yes
[13:17] <zetheroo1> ubuntu logo spinning around
[13:17] <robin-hero> cool, it takes a few minutes
[13:17] <zetheroo1> k
[13:17] <zetheroo1> so there is more development going on in this channel than in the ubuntu one?
[13:17] <robin-hero> no, just the HERE AGPS
[13:18] <robin-hero> as I know, but I'm only a user :)
[13:18] <zetheroo1> ok
[13:18] <zetheroo1> and HERE AGPS is not in the ubuntu channel ... why?
[13:20] <robin-hero> I don't know the proper answer :)
[13:20] <zetheroo1> ok
[13:20] <zetheroo1> so I am back in uNav ...
[13:21] <zetheroo1> when I enable GPS the map freezes
[13:22] <jgdx> zetheroo1, robin-hero: it collects anonymous data, maybe that's part of the reasoning.
[13:22] <robin-hero> zetheroo1, freezes?
[13:22] <zetheroo> well I cannot move the map around - I can only zoom in and out
[13:23] <robin-hero> you need click the "circle" icon
[13:23] <zetheroo> I did - so it has the black dot in the middle
[13:23] <robin-hero> if it's enable, it positions you to the center of the map
[13:23] <zetheroo> I am guessing that's enabling GPS?
[13:23] <robin-hero> no
[13:24] <robin-hero> do you enable GPS and location detection in the indicator?
[13:24] <robin-hero> *did
[13:24] <zetheroo> so with the black dot there GPS is off?
[13:24] <zetheroo> Yes, GPS and Location are enabled in the dropdown menu from the top of the screen
[13:25] <robin-hero> the black dot means GPS is enabled, but it locks the screen, so you can't move it
[13:25] <robin-hero> if you "disable" it, you can move the map with you finger
[13:25] <zetheroo> eh!?
[13:25] <zetheroo> so is GPS enabled in the App if the black dot is not there?
[13:25] <robin-hero> zetheroo, Sorry, English is not my native language :D
[13:26] <robin-hero> could you show a screenshot?
[13:26] <zetheroo> don't know how one the phone :D
[13:27] <zetheroo> in the uNav app there are 4 icons on the top right
[13:27] <zetheroo> the second icon is a circle
[13:27] <zetheroo> is you tap the circle a black dot appears in the middle
[13:27] <robin-hero> zetheroo, push the volume up and volume down in the same time
[13:27] <robin-hero> button
[13:27] <zetheroo> I was guessing this is turning GPS/Location "on"
[13:28] <zetheroo> ok ... now I am laughing :D
[13:28] <zetheroo> screenshot technique ay ... :D
[13:29] <robin-hero> :D
[13:29] <zetheroo> ok, now gotta get it onto the PC ... sec
[13:31] <zetheroo1> http://tinypic.com/r/oubjfr/9
[13:32] <robin-hero> Hmm, as the label says in the bottom, you don't have a good GPS signal yet
[13:32] <zetheroo> btw, the place its pointing to is not where I am - it's an address I searched for
[13:33] <robin-hero> zetheroo, I know, that's the destination :)
[13:33] <zetheroo> yeah, but with Android I get fine GPS signal right where I am sitting
[13:33] <robin-hero> zetheroo, I works for me well on my BQ Aquaris E4.5 and mx Nexus 4 as well
[13:33] <zetheroo> I can go outside and see if it works ... 2 mi
[13:33] <zetheroo> 2min*
[13:34] <robin-hero> abot 5-10 sec to get a good signal in my office
[13:34] <robin-hero> *about
[13:36] <zetheroo> ok, it worked out there
[13:36] <zetheroo> but odd that it locks the screen like that
[13:37] <zetheroo> also it doesn't seem to go into a kind of fullscreen mode
[13:37] <zetheroo> is that normal?
[13:37] <robin-hero> there's an icon for that
[13:37] <robin-hero> two squares
[13:37] <zetheroo> ah ... those squares
[13:37] <zetheroo> cool
[13:37] <robin-hero> yeah :)
[13:38] <zetheroo> about the map tiles - I get the feeling its downloading them fresh every time
[13:38] <zetheroo> is that right?
[13:39] <robin-hero> sorry, but I don't know that :) you need to ask the developer (Marcos Costales), he's a very nice guy :)
[13:40] <zetheroo> hehe .. ok ;)
[13:55] <zetheroo> I am giving OSMScout a try
[13:57] <robin-hero> I prefer uNav :)
[14:03] <zetheroo> it just crashed on me :P
[14:04] <zetheroo> I guess it's a matter of the tiles and whether or not they are stored/updated on the device or if they are freshly downloaded each time
[14:13] <V99_> hi to everyone
[14:15] <robin-hero> hey!
[14:21] <jgdx> anyone here a user of gmail notifications on the phone?
[14:22] <lotuspsychje> yes
[14:22] <lotuspsychje> jgdx: that gmail app makes a sound for new mail, but not always
[14:22] <jgdx> lotuspsychje, right, do you know why?
[14:23] <zetheroo> when uNav is not running is the GPS in the phone off or is it constantly on ?
[14:23] <lotuspsychje> jgdx: no sorry, its pretty random here
[14:23] <jgdx> lotuspsychje, would it make more sense if you knew that query for checking unread messages is "in:inbox is:unread category:personal"? You can run that search in gmail.
[14:25] <lotuspsychje> jgdx: wait, not sure i understand that
[14:26] <jgdx> lotuspsychje, we hit gmail's api with that search, and what we get back becomes notifications. So if an unread email in the inbox is not in the "personal" category, we simply won't notify you.
[14:27] <jgdx> Now, maybe that makes sense in some scenarios, but we might have to change it
[14:27] <robin-hero> zetheroo, In theory it should sleep if an app doen't use that.
[14:27] <zetheroo> robin-hero: I like theories :) Just asking 'cause my battery is getting sucked pretty fast
[14:28] <zetheroo> jgdx: what do you mean by "personal" category? Is that a Gmail-specific thing?
[14:29] <robin-hero> zetheroo, I don't disable it, just the location detection. But I'm using rc-proposed channel (development release), where there's no toggle to GPS, just location detection.
[14:29] <jgdx> zetheroo, yes, gmail tries to categorize stuff for you (I think)
[14:29] <zetheroo> hmm ok
[14:30] <lotuspsychje> jgdx: so what to do, to get all mail 'personal' then?
[14:30] <zetheroo> jgdx: I can only see "Primary" and "Social" in my gmail (Chrome browser on laptop)
[14:30] <lotuspsychje> jgdx: would love to hear a bell for every mail :p
[14:30] <DanChapman> jgdx, in my opinion all mail that gmail lands in inbox should become a notification. And expect that the user has trained gmail well enough to filter out crap. (which it's pretty good at by default anyway)
[14:31] <zetheroo> DanChapman: +1
[14:31] <lotuspsychje> DanChapman: i understand what jgdx says because google tries to sort stuff a weird way...
[14:32]  * mcphail 's gmail has been told very firmly there will be trouble if it tries to categorise his mail
[14:32] <jgdx> lotuspsychje, me too, I'm currently not getting it all.
[14:32] <lotuspsychje> oO
[14:32] <jgdx> DanChapman, yeah, agreed.
[14:32] <jgdx> mcphail, so "in:inbox is:unread" would make sense to you
[14:33] <mcphail> jgdx: yep
[14:33] <lotuspsychje> jgdx: like when sending a mail on googlegroups, you dont get a mail yourself....because gmail thinks...its from yourself
[14:33] <jgdx> lotuspsychje, right :)
[14:33] <lotuspsychje> you only get the reply from it
[14:33] <mcphail> jgdx: but would that repeatedly notify about the same unread mail?
[14:34] <DanChapman> does anyone actually use gmails search keywords? A while back I was thinking of allowing them in dekko
[14:35] <mcphail> I found Dekko's notifications were often missed as well, and when they came they didn't always make a sound/vibration. I don't think the notification thing really works
[14:35] <lotuspsychje> DanChapman: you mean like searching in your mail?
[14:35] <jgdx> mcphail, we do save state, but I'll have to look at that
[14:35] <DanChapman> lotuspsychje, yeah but using the advanced keywords https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7190
[14:36] <zetheroo> DanChapman: I almost never use search in my email on the phone - but it's handy when I need it ;)
[14:36] <lotuspsychje> ah i dont use that stuff :p
[14:36] <zetheroo> mcphail: I never get notifications from dekko - you get some?
[14:36] <lotuspsychje> reminds me of firefox about:config
[14:36] <robin-hero> Hey, could somebody take care of this bug? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntuone-credentials/+bug/1368788
[14:37] <zetheroo> DanChapman: I don't use that
[14:37] <robin-hero> It says it is triaged, but noone's assigned to it.
[14:40] <lotuspsychje> would 'desktop notifications' enable in gmail make the email sounds work?
[14:40] <mcphail> zetheroo: you need some black magic to get dekko notifications
[14:40] <zetheroo> heh
[14:40] <robin-hero> mcphail, I hope it will be change soon :)
[14:51] <lotuspsychje> good evening genii
[14:57] <genii> lotuspsychje: Well, still morning here :)
[14:57] <lotuspsychje> jgdx: think your theory must be right, when i send myself a gmail to gmail= no sound when i send a hotmail to gmail=sound
[14:58]  * lotuspsychje slides genii a cuppa coffee
[15:04]  * genii gurgles 
[15:04] <lotuspsychje> :p
[15:26] <elijah> The how to buy link on http://www.ubuntu.com/phone/devices takes you to Cyanogen edition.
[15:26] <elijah> https://store.bq.com/gl
[15:26] <elijah> Should be https://store.bq.com/gl/ubuntu-edition-e5/
[15:29] <sergiusens> davmor2, hey, in the latests testing cycles has there been online accounts testing? The last updates broke my notes app, I disabled evernote and it seems to be working; if I try to add an evernote account now it just fails
[15:30] <davmor2> sergiusens: should of been, pretty sure it is covered in regression suite
[15:30] <sergiusens> davmor2, another thing. I get no telegram notification sounds; I saw the push logs (on krillin) and it is telling the notif system to use buzz.mp3 which is of course not on this phone. Maybe that is a karni thing
[15:31] <davmor2> sergiusens: that's been around for ages blame karni I can't remember the exact cause of it but it only happens on krillin
[15:32] <sergiusens> davmor2, it is because it wants to play a file that doesn't exist, if I recall the architecture correcly, the push helper for the package says what sound to play
[15:32] <sergiusens> davmor2, is there an existing bug?
[15:33] <davmor2> sergiusens: ah definitely one for karni then, there is I don't know it off the top of my head though
[15:34] <davmor2> actually might not be karni might just need the tone adding to the right place not sure who deals with that though
[15:34] <sergiusens> davmor2, well I doubt buzz.mp3 is a standard sound
[15:35] <sergiusens> davmor2, oh, it might be the push client itself setting that, as the helper on telegram is not specifying one
[15:37] <davmor2> sergiusens: and I would assume that it is set across the board and iirc it works on arale mean the sound got removed from krillin which I'm just checking now :)
[15:40] <davmor2> hmmm I don't find buzz.mp3 on arale either so I wonder if the custom tarball change the sound file called
[15:41] <jgdx> sergiusens, hey, what do you think about changing the gmail notification query which you set here [1] to something like "in:inbox is:unread"? [1] http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-push-hackers/account-polld/trunk/revision/10.2.4
[15:42] <sergiusens> davmor2, http://paste.ubuntu.com/14598242/
[15:43] <sergiusens> davmor2, that's what I see in the push logs
[15:44] <sergiusens> jgdx, if you do that, all the things categorized will trigger messages
[15:44] <sergiusens> jgdx, which goes away a bit from what android does
[15:44] <sergiusens> were Forum, Social and Updates don't trigger pings
[15:45] <jgdx> sergiusens, only if they land in the inbox
[15:46] <jgdx> sergiusens, is what android does docced somewhere?
[15:47] <sergiusens> jgdx, I just experimented... we had this discussion with chihchun a while back fwiw
[15:47] <sergiusens> sorry
[15:47] <sergiusens> I meant Chipaca
[15:48] <jgdx> sergiusens, any conclusions? Or did you conclude with the current query, perhaps.
[15:49] <sergiusens> jgdx, we kept it as it is now with that conclusion
[15:50] <sergiusens> jgdx, with the idea in the future to hook up the filters in the configuration/settings app
[15:52] <Chipaca> sergiusens: me what?
[15:53] <davmor2> Chipaca: blaming you for the lack no notification noises ;)
[15:54] <Chipaca> davmor2: something something arare can't play mp3 something?
[15:54] <jgdx> or, trying to have a discussion, because a lot of people do not get their notifications
[15:54] <jgdx> Chipaca, no, that's fixed
[15:55] <Chipaca> jgdx: promise?
[15:55] <Chipaca> because the issue would automagically fix itself for people
[15:55] <jgdx> Chipaca, no way
[15:56] <jgdx> Chipaca, well, this is the case where you have unread things in your inbox and do a search for "in:inbox is:unread category:personal" and then the search draws a blank
[15:56] <jgdx> :)
[15:56] <Chipaca> what does that have to do with mp3s?
[15:56] <jgdx> Chipaca, not sure where mp3s came from, but there are two discussions
[15:56] <davmor2> Chipaca: I think it is more that it points to an mp3 that find doesn't find :)
[15:57] <Chipaca> there are at least three different kinds of inboxes in gmail, no way of detecting which one the user is doing, and no single search that'll give the right results for all inbox types
[15:57] <Chipaca> so that search is a compromise
[15:59] <jgdx> ios seems to do "in:inbox is:unread", which makes sense to me
[15:59] <Chipaca> davmor2: about the mp3, there are at least three separate things that i know of: arare not shipping with the default sound (and the people removing that not updating the push config to point to the right one), arare not being able to play the mp3 or ogg or whatever it was, and the android-side mixer having the wrong volume level for the notification type
[16:00] <Chipaca> jgdx: that fails hilariously if you're using priority inbox or categories
[16:00] <Chipaca> jgdx: (it spams you with junk)
[16:00] <davmor2> Chipaca: hahaha so big fail all round then :) nice :)
[16:01]  * lotuspsychje likes sounds for every mail in inbox
[16:01] <lotuspsychje> even if its spam
[16:02] <Chipaca> jgdx: at one point i thought of making it configurable, but then that would only help people comfortable editing config (because it has no ui)
[16:02] <Chipaca> davmor2: but for me, it worked, on arare. I'm not sure if it's because different images were different, or if the phones themselves were different
[16:03] <Chipaca> davmor2: or if everything is terrible and on fire all the time
[16:03] <Chipaca> davmor2: at some point i thought somebody was actually going to fix it, after i despaired of being able to reproduce the issue consistently
[16:04] <jgdx> Chipaca, maybe we introduce after: last_check to the query?
[16:04] <davmor2> Chipaca: so the issue I see from sergiusens is that it point to buzz.mp3 that file can not be found on either arale or krillin so I assume if we change that to something that does exist in theory it should play something right?
[16:05] <Chipaca> davmor2: yes. You can change that in /etc/xdg/ubuntu-push/config.json, or in the equiv user config
[16:05] <Chipaca> .config/ubuntu-push/config.json i mean
[16:05] <jgdx> Chipaca, if you were thinking of the case with an inbox with 10^132 unread emails
[16:05] <Chipaca> davmor2: or by starting ubuntu-push by hand with the config in cmdline
[16:05] <Chipaca> jgdx: i thought it was already doing some kind of time-limiting thing?
[16:06] <zetheroo> I am seeing there  is a pretty big issue with notifications in general. The app hangups also doesn't notify
[16:06] <jgdx> Chipaca, the query is not, but every fetched email is put in a json.
[16:06] <Chipaca> jgdx: would now be a good time to mention that maybe we can implement the gmail push thing?
[16:06] <Chipaca> zetheroo: what do you mean? does hangups use notifications?
[16:06] <Chipaca> zetheroo: in general, app devs haven't been implementing notifications
[16:07] <lotuspsychje> telegram does the trick nicely here
[16:07] <zetheroo>  Chipaca: I have no idea, but a chat app that doesn't notify on a mobile is pretty useless
[16:07] <jgdx> Chipaca, yeah, that's another pack of wild evil rabbits
[16:07] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: yes
[16:07] <Chipaca> jgdx: but they're so cuuuute! and a little gamey, granted
[16:08] <dobey> night of the lepus?
[16:08] <Chipaca> zetheroo: unfortunately having notifications requires a server
[16:08] <jgdx> Chipaca, I'm all for
[16:08] <jgdx> but it doesn't fix account-polld :p
[16:08] <Chipaca> zetheroo: and unfortunately², for hangups this probably means giving them your google credentials to put on that server
[16:09] <Chipaca> zetheroo: which I'm not sure you'd want
[16:09] <jgdx> Chipaca, but more time limiting would fix the hilarious fail you mentioned?
[16:09] <Chipaca> jgdx: you mean about the search not working properly across inbox types?
[16:09] <jgdx> ignoring that
[16:10] <jgdx> for now
[16:12] <zetheroo> just wondering ... Ubuntu Touch/Phone has been around for a year or so ... (right!?) ... is the reason for the low/poor app selection due to while there are plenty of developers the development is harder than for other mobile OS's, or are there just not enough developers?
[16:14] <mcphail> zetheroo: There aren't enough phones or installs to have a large number of apps. App development on Ubuntu is very easy. But the pool of users (and developers) is very small
[16:15] <zetheroo> mcphail: well the fact that not so many people use it may have something to do with the low/poor number of apps :)
[16:15] <zetheroo> But if the developers are in short supply that's a real problem
[16:15] <mcphail> zetheroo: it is a vicious circle, indeed
[16:15] <zetheroo> yeah
[16:16] <zetheroo> how many app devs do you think there are?
[16:16] <zetheroo> I mean all I need is email and chat working seamlessly  -  I am not asking too much no!? :D
[16:17] <mcphail> zetheroo: all contributions are welcome ;) This is Ubuntu, not Android. "Ask not what your phone OS can do for you, ask what you can do for your phone OS"
[16:18] <zetheroo> I am no developer :P
[16:18] <zetheroo> my brother is though (seriously) :)
[16:18] <dobey> zetheroo: please help convince developers of apps on android that you want to see on ubuntu, to port them
[16:18] <mcphail> zetheroo: neither am I, but I've got a few apps on the store. It is easy to package an app
[16:19] <zetheroo> mcphail: i just might have a look, but I suspect if it were THAT easy it would have already been done
[16:19] <dobey> there could be 50K apps in the store, but if they aren't the ones you're wanting, you'd still say the selection is poor
[16:20] <dobey> and most of the ones that most people coming from android want, are unfortunately closed proprietary apps
[16:20] <lotuspsychje> who wants those dangerous exploity android apps anyway
[16:20] <zetheroo> I don't want those apps per se - just the functionality
[16:21] <zetheroo> like email and chat :)
[16:21] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: dekko, gmail app and kiwi irc..
[16:21] <lotuspsychje> done
[16:21] <zetheroo> without notifications it's no good
[16:21] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: there working on it, give them a lil patience here
[16:21] <zetheroo> kiwi?
[16:21] <zetheroo> yes
[16:22] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: at least we have a nice safe ubuntu on a phone now
[16:22] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: and tell your brother to come port stuff here lol
[16:22] <zetheroo> lotuspsychje: yes, it's awesome! But unfortunately for me it's not useful atm :P
[16:23] <zetheroo> yeah, will do
[16:23] <lotuspsychje> what you mean not usefull
[16:24] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: until they fix the sound, open your email app?
[16:24] <lotuspsychje> check once in a while
[16:28] <zetheroo> What I do with my phone: gmail, work email, google chat, facebook chat, facebook, navigation (google), photos/videos (google), ebooks (google), music (Jango/online radio), calender (google) ... those are the main things that I cannot do without on a mobile phone (ok, maybe the online radio can pass) :)
[16:29] <zetheroo> now with all that communication stuff on Android I of course get alerted the moment there is something new. That is non-negotiable to me.
[16:30] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: give it a lil time, meanwhile enjoy your safe Os on phone
[16:30] <zetheroo> And at the moment I have all my photos/videos on Google and I cannot find anyway to sync that content to the Gallery app or anywhere else ftm
[16:31] <zetheroo> it may be safe, but at present it's safely not going to be doing much :D I know ... just gotta be patient ...
[16:31] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: look at it this way, your on a different community right now with ppl working on it all over the world
[16:32] <zetheroo> is there a date set when Canonical will say "Ok, now it's ready"?
[16:32] <lotuspsychje> zetheroo: when is something ready?
[16:32] <lotuspsychje> its evolution mate
[16:32] <lotuspsychje> gets better every ota
[16:32] <zetheroo> When it's comparable in functionality to whats already available!?
[16:33] <DS-McGuire> Can somebody help me out? I've tried to flash  my MX4 using the ubuntu-device-flash method and it failed to enter recovery in the process and now my phone wont boot. Anybody who helps me out I'll donate £5 via paypal!
[16:33] <lotuspsychje> lets not compare 'ready' with another Os
[16:33] <k1l> DS-McGuire: is it an ubuntu mx4? or is it the android mx4?
[16:33] <DS-McGuire> Ubuntu MX4
[16:34] <zetheroo> lotuspsychje: I am comparing 'ready' based on functionality - I think that's fair enough ... ;)
[16:34] <dobey> frankly, i'm happy i don't get a million notifications a second on my ubuntu phone
[16:34] <dobey> quite nice actually
[16:34] <DS-McGuire> k1l, ^^
[16:34] <dobey> DS-McGuire: did you use the recovery image mentioned on the web site
[16:34] <lotuspsychje> dobey: would be nice if we had a choice no?
[16:34] <lotuspsychje> enable/disable
[16:35] <k1l> DS-McGuire: i was just to make sure because the android mx4 is not flashable at all, iirc, due to locked bootloader.
[16:35] <zetheroo> dobey: i don't know anyone who gets that many notifications :D
[16:35] <DS-McGuire> dobey, No I had someone from IRC help me out because I couldn't get it to work
[16:35] <dobey> zetheroo: you obviously don't get enough e-mail then :)
[16:35] <DS-McGuire> k1l, No problem :)
[16:35] <k1l> DS-McGuire: what did you flash and what is the error? (i am not experienced with mx4 or flashing ubuntu too much.)
[16:36] <DS-McGuire> command on destkop: ubuntu-device-flash touch --channel ubuntu-touch/rc-proposed/meizu.en
[16:36] <dobey> DS-McGuire: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices#Working_with_ubuntu-device-flash <- you need the mx4 recovery.img from here, and you have to pass it to ubuntu-device-flash
[16:36] <DS-McGuire> It went through, rebooted the phone and then failed in recovery.
[16:36] <zetheroo> dobey: you bet
[16:37] <DS-McGuire> Would the command be:
[16:37] <DS-McGuire> ubuntu-device-flash touch --channel ubuntu-touch/rc-proposed/meizu.en --bootstrap --recovery-image ~/home/daniel/Downloads/recovery.img
[16:37] <DS-McGuire> And what state should the phone be in?
[16:38] <dobey> --bootstrap is for flashing from the boot loader, and will wipe all data on the phone
[16:39] <DS-McGuire> So I remove that?  and put the phone in recovery?
[16:40] <DS-McGuire> dobey, ^
[16:41] <dobey> i'm not sure if you can get into recovery to avoid losing data at this point
[16:41] <DS-McGuire> There isn't any important data on there that I can't get back dobey.
[16:42] <dobey> DS-McGuire: then i'd suggest getting into fastboot and using --bootstrap if it's ok to lose the data
[16:42] <DS-McGuire> dobey, What's the process for the MX4?
[16:43] <dobey> DS-McGuire: i'm not sure, as i don't have one. but maybe holding volume dn while powering on
[16:44] <DS-McGuire> dobey, Got it
[16:44] <zetheroo> is everything in the Ubuntu app store open source?
[16:44] <DS-McGuire> dobey, right, now I get ://system-image.ubuntu.com to device arale can't flash recovery image
[16:46] <dobey> zetheroo: no
[16:47] <zetheroo> ok
[16:47] <zetheroo> does what's offered there get checked at all by Canonical?
[16:47] <DS-McGuire> dobey, Any idea?
[16:47] <dobey> not via manual review usually no, but apps are confined
[16:48] <zetheroo> confined?
[16:48] <dobey> DS-McGuire: i'm sorry,, i don't have the device, so i can't realy help any further
[16:48] <DS-McGuire> dobey, No problem :(
[16:48] <dobey> zetheroo: yes, apps can't run things in the background, or even run themselves in the background. and they can't talk to arbitrary dbus services or read all your files, etc
[16:49] <zetheroo> ok
[16:49] <mcphail> DS-McGuire: when I semi-bricked my bq phone, I had to flash an ADB-enabled recovery image, as the stock one has adb removed
[16:50] <DS-McGuire> mcphail, Oh, how do I do that?
[16:50] <dobey> most of the apps in the store are also webapps i think, which just runs a browser in confinement, on a particular page, and with a little less functionality than a normal browser
[16:50] <zetheroo> right
[16:50] <zetheroo> bbl ;)
[16:51] <mcphail> DS-McGuire: you need to locate the adb-enabled recovery image (which is probably one you have already downloaded) and flash it from fastboot. I can't remember the exact syntax - 2 secs and I'll google
[16:51] <DS-McGuire> mcphail, Thank you so much! Paypal donation is order if you get my phone back!
[16:52] <mcphail> DS-McGuire: don't be daft. Syntax is "fastboot flash recovery /path/to/recovery/image"
[16:53] <mcphail> DS-McGuire: you can then reboot into recovery and try flashing from there. If that doesn't work, use the --bootstrap method to nuke everything
[16:55] <DS-McGuire> mcphail, Don't be silly, have a beer on me!
[16:57] <DS-McGuire> mcphail, Sorry I'm in recovery now but I can't figure out the next command
[16:58] <mcphail> DS-McGuire: just run the ubuntu-device-flash command and wait ;)
[16:59] <DS-McGuire> mcphail, I ran ubuntu-device-flash touch --channel ubuntu-touch/rc-proposed/meizu.en --bootstrap
[16:59] <DS-McGuire> And I have: Expecting the device to be in the bootloader... waiting
[16:59] <mcphail> DS-McGuire: not with --bootstrap
[17:00] <DS-McGuire> mcphail, More errors...:
[17:00] <DS-McGuire> 2016/01/22 16:59:53 Expecting the device to expose an adb interface...
[17:00] <DS-McGuire> 2016/01/22 16:59:53 Device is |/sbin/sh: getprop: not found|
[17:00] <DS-McGuire> Device /sbin/sh: getprop: not found not found on server https://system-image.ubuntu.com channel ubuntu-touch/rc-proposed/meizu.en
[17:02] <mcphail> DS-McGuire: interesting one. Do other channels work?
[17:02] <DS-McGuire> mcphail, I don't know
[17:02] <mcphail> DS-McGuire: try flashing the stable channel first, to get you back to a working phone
[17:03] <DS-McGuire> mcphail, ubuntu-device-flash touch --channel ubuntu-touch/stable/meizu.en
[17:04] <dobey> the channel isn't the problem there
[17:04] <DS-McGuire> shows the same error
[17:04] <dobey> it's failing to get the device name
[17:04] <mcphail> aah
[17:04] <dobey> try passing --device arale as well
[17:04] <DS-McGuire> dobey, nailed it!
[17:04] <mcphail> !yay
[17:04] <dobey> heh
[17:05] <DS-McGuire> Seems to be working! :D
[17:05] <dobey> great
[17:05] <DS-McGuire> mcphail, If you want a beer on me let me know :P
[17:05] <mcphail> DS-McGuire: I'm fine, but I think you owe dobey one
[17:06] <DS-McGuire> mcphail, Only if your sure!
[17:06] <DS-McGuire> dobey, PM your paypal email and I'll chuck you £5
[17:06] <dobey> DS-McGuire: are you in london?
[17:12] <dobey> DS-McGuire: if you're in london, and really want to buy me a beer, you can buy me one next time i'm there.
[17:18] <lotuspsychje> beer where :p
[17:19] <mcphail> Isn't it odd that Friday afternoon thoughts turn to the pub? ;)
[17:20] <lotuspsychje> evening here :p
[17:25] <DS-McGuire> dobey, Sorry the download of the image killed my internet for a bit. No sorry I'm in south wales :(
[17:28] <dobey> DS-McGuire: ah ok. no worries
[17:28] <DS-McGuire> dobey, I am a west ham supporter so I might be there some time later this year haha
[17:33] <dobey> DS-McGuire: heh. well buy yourself a beer. i'm having too many this week already anyway :)
[17:36] <jgdx> beer! buy. bye
[17:44] <DS-McGuire> dobey, haha, I will then :D
[18:28] <zetheroo> So are apps not developed by Canonical not allowed to work in the background?
[18:32] <DanChapman> zetheroo, yep that's pretty much it.
[18:33] <zetheroo> isn't that a problem for just about any communication app being LIVE all the time?
[18:34] <DanChapman> zetheroo, tedg 's talk on app lifecycle gives a good overview of what an app can do etc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5iY2NgaBeY
[18:35] <zetheroo> if apps cannot work in the background can they still be LIVE and thus give out LIVE notifications ?
[18:36] <ogra_> zetheroo, they need to use a system service
[18:37] <DanChapman> no need to keep uppercasing live. I get your point :-) but no the idea is an app would hand that over to a system provided service.
[18:38] <tedg> To be clear, it's not a Canonical provided service, it's a system service. Most of them aren't provided by Canonical.
[18:38] <tedg> No confined service can run arbitrarily in the background.
[18:38] <zetheroo> DanChapman: sorry :)
[18:44] <zetheroo> So an app like Dekko not being live - why is that?
[18:45] <zetheroo> or Hangups, Gmail etc ...
[19:06] <Wristwatch> Just saying Hi for now. E4.5 is my first smart-phone and  I am really enjoying the experience.
[19:07] <Wristwatch> Thought to pop in to see what is going on, what's new.
[19:12] <tathhu> Wristwatch, \o/
[19:15] <Wristwatch> Well it's quite a steep learning curve, even that little black stick for poking the screen! Took me  a while to figure out the other end went in the audio out.
[19:16] <zetheroo> is it possible to get Ubuntu Touch to look like this anymore? https://youtu.be/P4SsU9xRxU8
[19:16] <zetheroo> I prefer the background in the video
[19:18] <dobey> zetheroo: not really, no
[19:19] <zetheroo> so the Background setting is only for the lock screen?
[19:20] <dobey> yes
[19:22] <dobey> zetheroo: services like gmail could send push notifications if the server implemented it
[19:23] <zetheroo> dobey: don't google servers support that?
[19:23] <zetheroo> or does google themselves have to make the app?
[19:23] <dobey> no, google doesn't support push notifications on ubuntu
[19:24] <dobey> they support it on android, but they also made android
[19:24] <zetheroo> ok
[19:24] <zetheroo> so it doesn't matter what app is made for gmail, if google don't do something from their end notifications will never work?
[19:24] <dobey> maybe at some point in the future everyone will use the w3c specified push notifications implementation, and then arbitrary services wouldn't need extra work to enable that
[19:25] <dobey> zetheroo: right, push notifications are something sent from the server
[19:26] <zetheroo> So when I am using Ubuntu on the desktop and I get a notification from Thunderbird because my gmail account got a new email ...
[19:27] <zetheroo> how does that happen?
[19:27] <ogra_> because the thunbderbird maintainer has root on your system and because TB has background services running on your system ....
[19:27] <ogra_> *thunderbird
[19:28] <ogra_> neither is possible for phone apps
[19:29] <ogra_> (or rather "TB *is* a background service")
[19:30] <zetheroo> I don't get it -- is the reason apps are not live on Ubuntu phone because google needs to do something on their end? - or because the app is not effectively running
[19:30] <zetheroo> ?
[19:30] <dobey> your PC isn't runnning apps confined
[19:30] <ogra_> right
[19:30] <dobey> zetheroo: it has nothing to do with "live"
[19:31] <ogra_> a) on a PC the app is constantly running and eating resources (which isnt such a big issue on a PC) ... b) deb packages give the package maintainer massive (root) rights ...
[19:32] <zetheroo> dobey, well I don't know what else to call it - Thunderbird is open and gets new emails as soon as they get to gmail, and I get notified. With Android any email account I use in the email app acts the exact same way as Thunderbird in Ubuntu Desktop.
[19:32] <dobey> zetheroo: thunderbird is polling the server
[19:33] <zetheroo> But on Ubuntu Touch Dekko seems to effectively stop checking for emails as soon as it's not on-screen
[19:33] <dobey> google's mail app on android is just gmail, so it adds your accounts into gmail, and the server sends notifications, iirc
[19:33] <dobey> yes, because it is confined
[19:33] <dobey> and the lifecycle means it is paused when not in foreground
[19:33] <dobey> or when screen is off
[19:33] <zetheroo> right, so it's not getting emails because of Ubuntu, not because of google - right?
[19:34] <tedg> Google could choose to send push notifications, but they're not.
[19:34] <dobey> getting e-mails != getting notifications
[19:34] <tedg> Really push messages. They don't have to be notifications.
[19:35] <zetheroo> tedg: so google has to decide to send push messages to each operating system individually?
[19:35] <dobey> yes
[19:35] <ogra_> alternatively you could set up a polling server that does what TB would do on a desktop and simply sends push notifications when it sees new mails
[19:36] <dobey> ios implements a different api than android which is different from ubuntu
[19:36] <ogra_> i.e. a push message proxy
[19:36] <zetheroo> So google pushes notification out to Ubuntu Desktop but not to Ubuntu Touch?
[19:36] <ogra_> no
[19:36] <ogra_> thunderbird constantly polls the server for new mails
[19:36] <andywork> TB is polling the gmail server for new emails
[19:37] <zetheroo> so which server does TB user to poll from? - the PC?
[19:37] <ogra_> the gmail server
[19:37] <zetheroo> use*
[19:38] <zetheroo> So why can't dekko poll like TB does?
[19:38] <ogra_> imagine a process that coonstantly runs in a loop and looks if there are unread mails on the server
[19:38] <dobey> zetheroo: it can. but only while it's actively running
[19:38] <ogra_> if you would do that on a phone it would mean your phone doesnt go to sleep
[19:38] <dobey> but it's not actively running when it's not in the foreground with the screen on
[19:38] <ogra_> and your battery life would suck
[19:38] <zetheroo> so is it planned to get it to be live?
[19:39] <zetheroo> or is that not the plan?
[19:39] <dobey> no. google should implement push notifications
[19:39] <zetheroo> implement to Ubuntu as a whole ...
[19:40] <zetheroo> and I guess the same goes for Google hangouts?
[19:40] <dobey> and whatever other e-mail provider you want to use on the phone, would need push notifications
[19:40] <dobey> hangouts is an entirely different thing from e-mail
[19:42] <zetheroo> well hangups also bascially shuts off as long as it's not on-screen
[19:42] <zetheroo> :P
[19:42] <zetheroo> It looks open in the launcher but when I tap on the icon it starts Authenticating all over again
[19:43] <dobey> i don't know what all hangups supports with hangouts
[19:43] <ogra_> it would need proper integration with a backend service to not do that ....
[19:43] <zetheroo> The only thing that actually runs like a proper communication app so far is Telegraph - and nobody uses it :D
[19:43] <dobey> but yes, if you want push notifications of hangout things, then google has to implement push notifications
[19:43] <dobey> telegram
[19:43] <dobey> and lots of people use it
[19:44] <zetheroo> telegram :)
[19:44] <ogra_> definitely :)
[19:44] <zetheroo> nobody i know uses it - because they all use iphones and Android
[19:44] <ogra_> there are telegram clients for both
[19:45] <andywork> please mind that ubuntu touch phones are still a relatively new thing
[19:45] <zetheroo> so people are developing apps that are pretty useless on a mobile phone ... hmm ... is that because its so hard to "integrate with a backend service"?
[19:45] <ogra_> no, because there are still background services missing
[19:46] <flux__> zetheroo, ogra_ Background services coming to phones with snappy on the phones, according to Mark Shuttleworth
[19:46] <ogra_> (well, and in the case of hangups also integration with the system accounts)
[19:46] <zetheroo> ogra_: oh :P
[19:46] <ogra_> flux__, yep :)
[19:46] <tvoss> flux__, we have background services today, just saying
[19:47] <flux__> i really need a home router with ubuntu
[19:47] <ogra_> tvoss, a limited amount though
[19:47] <dobey> very limited amount
[19:47] <tvoss> ogra_, that's out of the question
[19:47] <zetheroo> so the background services are there bit missing?
[19:47] <tvoss> zetheroo, on the one hand, on the other hand it is services integrating with our push infrastructure
[19:48] <tvoss> zetheroo, if an app is polling the gmail server or a background service on the phone is not important (to come back to your gmail/dekko example)
[19:48] <zetheroo> "our push infrastructure"?
[19:48] <zetheroo> who's?
[19:49] <dobey> ubuntu
[19:49] <zetheroo> " if an app is polling the gmail server or a background service on the phone is not important" - Sorry I didn't understand that
[19:49] <flux__> uuuuuuuuuuu i don't care!!! i want an ubuntu router! orange :D
[19:49] <dobey> flux__: make one
[19:50] <flux__> noh :D i want to buy one :P
[19:50] <flux__> more like 4-5
[19:50] <flux__> just make one
[19:50] <flux__> and sell it, simple as that
[19:51] <tvoss> zetheroo, so if there is no push notification integration, something would have to poll on the phone
[19:51] <tvoss> zetheroo, if that polling is done by an app or a background service does not matter, both is wasting resources
[19:51] <flux__> i'd also love to be able to install an irc bouncer on the router :D
[19:51] <dobey> …
[19:51] <zetheroo> tvoss: ok, I see that making perfect sense.
[19:51] <flux__> snappy install bouncer
[19:51] <flux__> make it super easy
[19:52] <zetheroo> So google is pushing to its apps and Facebook is pushing to it's apps - right?
[19:52] <flux__> here you can get 1Gb/s for 10$ :))
[19:53] <flux__> you can't even get <300 or 100Mb/s  because that's so 2010
[19:53] <tvoss> zetheroo, yes, they push to the respective platform's push infrastructure, which then pushes to the devices, which then goes to the app
[19:53] <tvoss> zetheroo, for the sake of completeness
[19:53] <zetheroo> ok
[19:54] <zetheroo> So we basically have to wait for Google to do something ...
[19:54] <zetheroo> and facebook ..
[19:54] <tvoss> zetheroo, either that, or ask them to support Ubuntu (users asking for support is usually a strong argument)
[19:55] <mcphail> tvoss: well, that's not true, and hasn't been true in the history of linux
[19:55] <tvoss> mcphail, that's not entirely true in recent years
[19:56] <tvoss> mcphail, and yes, it's obviously a question of how many people ask for support
[19:56] <dobey> what i need are bluetooth connection from app, serial port comms, nfc, and ios-like background processing
[19:57] <dobey> mcphail: more people asking is always a good indication that maybe they should actually support this thing
[19:57] <dobey> but it's not a guarantee, indeed
[19:57] <tvoss> zetheroo, alternatively, as ogra_ suggested, come up with a server that you run, that does the polling in the cloud, translating to our push infra
[19:57] <zetheroo> well a horde of Linux users have been asking for years for a native Google Drive app and have gotten absolutely nothing in return :D
[19:57] <tvoss> zetheroo, the code to do it is out there, write one :)
[19:57] <dobey> vocal minority
[19:57] <tvoss> and what dobey said
[19:58] <ogra_> convergence demo at SCaLE starts now ;)
[19:58] <dobey> some people have been complaining loudly on social media and such
[19:58] <ogra_> zetheroo, google just misunderstood them and created a self driving car instead
[19:58] <ogra_> :P
[19:58] <dobey> but doesn't mean a "horde" is asking
[19:58] <flux__> :D
[19:58] <andywork> do you remember what happened with youtube on windows phone?
[19:58] <andywork> google basically gave ms the finger
[19:59] <zetheroo> waiting on Google for something like this ... hmmm
[20:00] <zetheroo> tvoss: regarding the server idea - if it were that simple why wouldn't people have done it already? Why hasn't Canonical done it?
[20:00] <dobey> simple doesn't mean secure
[20:00] <tvoss> zetheroo, you would have to hand out your credentials to the server
[20:00] <dobey> the server has to read your e-mail
[20:01] <tvoss> zetheroo, running it for you personally -> fine, someone hosting it for you (Canonical for example) -> way more difficult
[20:01] <zetheroo> well I do trust Google with that :D
[20:01] <tvoss> zetheroo, you wouldn't trust the man in the middle if it is hosted
[20:01] <dobey> you trust me with your gooogle password?
[20:01] <zetheroo> what about on my own hosting?
[20:01] <ogra_> you can indeed do that
[20:01] <zetheroo> dobey: sure man ... anything ;)
[20:02] <tvoss> zetheroo, for your own hosting: perfectly fine :) as long as you trust yourself ;)
[20:03] <zetheroo> is it like an email service that is run? does one need root access to the hosting?
[20:04] <ogra_> it would be a very small email client
[20:04] <ogra_> that then sens the push message to your phone if it sees new unread mail
[20:04] <zetheroo> so like forwarding?
[20:04] <dobey> or you could run your own mail server
[20:06] <zetheroo> this is all so over my head :D
[20:06] <dobey> i wonder how hard it would be to implement something for dovecot
[20:07] <dobey> hard part is adding an account on the phone for it though
[20:07] <ogra_> dobey, Chipaca has some universal push thingy written in python ... should be easy to hook up with dovecot via i.e. procmail
[20:07] <tvoss> dobey, what ogra_ said
[20:09] <dobey> ogra_: yeah, that part is trivial. it's all the other parts that are hard :)
[20:09] <zetheroo> so if you have an email server - how do you then push to Ubuntu Touch?
[20:10] <tvoss> zetheroo, https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/start/platform/guides/push-notifications-server-guide/
[20:11] <dobey> zetheroo: implement push notifications for the server
[20:12] <zetheroo> I can see now why it's not being done :)
[20:12] <dobey> well, i don't know why google hasn't done it
[20:12] <flux__> random live feed from SCaLE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gt-KI4J4Pg o_O
[20:13] <tvoss> dobey, it would be cool if dekko integrated with it @gmail
[20:13] <dobey> they've ceertainly got enouhg developers to immplement it pretty quickly
[20:13] <dobey> tvoss: tell google :)
[20:13] <dobey> what i want, is an expensify app
[20:13] <zetheroo> dobey: does google listen to anyone? :P
[20:13] <flux__> $
[20:15] <dobey> drop a few hamiltons and maybe
[20:19] <zetheroo> found this discussion https://github.com/tim-sueberkrueb/ubuntu-hangups/issues/5
[20:25] <zetheroo> according to the above "Dekko is using account-polld" ?
[20:26] <dobey> no it's not
[20:26] <zetheroo> oh
[20:26] <dobey> dekko cannot use accounts-polld
[20:27] <zetheroo> so dekko doesn't do any polling while not on-screen
[20:27] <dobey> it cannot
[20:28] <zetheroo> k
[20:28] <dobey> i think dekko does use caxton though, which is something that can let your PC send push notifications to your phone
[20:28] <dobey> but that requires stuff to be running on your PC
[20:29] <zetheroo> seems here that polld is soon to be implemented https://bugs.launchpad.net/dekko/+bug/1421923
[20:31] <dobey> well, that's not dekko at that point
[20:32] <zetheroo> right - the plugin between the two ..
[20:33] <dobey> not exactly, no
[20:33] <zetheroo> gah
[20:33] <zetheroo> :P
[20:38] <zetheroo> https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/tag-manager/sxMMa2oKKiM;context-place=forum/tag-manager
[20:38] <zetheroo> there, I started a request :D
[20:47] <zetheroo> I was just chatting with my brother about developing for Ubuntu Touch ... he was not keen :P
[20:48] <dobey> zetheroo: get him more beers, then he'll come around :)
[20:48] <zetheroo> seems he was wary of Ubuntu Touch vanishing - said he wasn't confident in it being around very long
[20:49] <zetheroo> he actually also has a Nexus 4 and has Ubuntu Touch dual booting on it with Android
[20:49] <dobey> stop saying ubuntu touch; it's just ubuntu
[20:49] <dobey> and ubuntu is not going to vanish
[20:49] <zetheroo> ok sorry ... though it was Ubuntu Phone and then was told it's Ubuntu Touch .. so ...
[20:50] <dobey> it's just ubuntu. phone images are just special builds, because phone manufacturers do not make open hardware
[20:50] <zetheroo> ok
[20:50] <dobey> and we have confinement, etc… for better security
[20:52] <zetheroo> I thought he would be keen to get in on something like Ubuntu apps while it's still new and fresh
[20:55] <zetheroo> is there anything for owncloud?
[20:57] <dobey> some people have been working on an owncloud app
[20:57] <zetheroo> ok
[20:58] <zetheroo> I wonder if owncloud pushes to Ubuntu ...
[20:59] <dobey> no idea
[20:59] <dobey> i guess the developers working on that might be working on push support too
[21:07] <ajalkane> Umm... I'd say Ubuntu Touch and Ubuntu are very different even if they share much of the same codebase. You wouldn't want to use Ubuntu Touch on desktop, for example you would not have multitasking with applications
[21:08] <tvoss> ajalkane, that's not true ;)
[21:08] <ajalkane> tvoss: explain?
[21:08] <tvoss> ajalkane, (a.) check out the convergence demos, (b.) the lifecycle policy is adjusted for that specific scenario
[21:09] <ajalkane> ah, okay convergence... I might be a bit behind the curve on that aspect :).
[21:10] <k1l_> ajalkane: the actual ubuntu desktop is not the same codebase than ubuntu-touch
[21:10] <k1l_> the desktop still uses xorg and unity7. the convergence ubuntu is MIR and unity8
[21:10] <ajalkane> The basic point was that if you expect Ubuntu experience on phone running Ubuntu Touch you have unrealistic expectations
[21:11] <ajalkane> k1l_: debatable. Most of the basic infrastructure is the same
[21:11] <tvoss> ajalkane, sure, primarily because it's a phone ;)
[21:11] <k1l_> most people have an unrealistic experience when it comes to what is usable (really usable) when it comes to touch
[21:11] <k1l_> ajalkane: nope
[21:12] <ajalkane> tvoss: that's debatable, but I'm not going there :-D
[21:12] <k1l_> ajalkane: MIR is totally different. so are snappy packages and not dpkg
[21:12] <ajalkane> aah... Ubuntu Touch is already snappy based totally?
[21:13] <ajalkane> I'm impressed at the pace if that's so
[21:13] <tvoss> ajalkane, k1l_ nope, it isn't
[21:13] <k1l_> they started with click packages. but apt-get is not to be used
[21:13] <tvoss> k1l_, and it is still using click today
[21:14] <k1l_> i dont mind as long as it works ;p
[21:14] <ajalkane> that's what I thought, snappy replaces click packages eventually. But base system is apt based and shares with common Ubuntu base
[21:14] <k1l_> i just been told that the target was snappy
[21:14] <k1l_> ajalkane: but you dont use apt to install on phone.
[21:15] <ajalkane> k1l_: no you don't... but the base system uses apt. And you can drop to shell and hack around using apt. That's the base system.
[21:16] <k1l_> ajalkane: yes. but that stops getting OTA updates.
[21:16] <k1l_> ajalkane: that is one of the things people get confused "but i got a linux so i apt-get all i can"
[21:16] <dobey> well, that breaks your phone
[21:16] <ajalkane> But this goes to what I said previously, you can't expect Ubuntu Touch to be same as Ubuntu. Click packages and various restrictions make it quite a different experience
[21:16] <dobey> and so you get to deal with anything that breaks
[21:17] <dobey> you can however us a chroot on the phone just fine to mess with packages from apt
[21:17] <dobey> there is no ubuntu touch. only ubuntu
[21:17] <dobey> :)
[21:17] <ajalkane> I don't see how that would stop OTA updates
[21:17] <k1l_> that is where your argument get killed ;p
[21:17] <dobey> system-image blocks updates when the system is set to writable mode
[21:18] <ajalkane> Ouch
[21:18] <dobey> and if you did update, you would lose things you installed with apt anyway
[21:18] <dobey> which is why you should use a chroot
[21:18] <tvoss> unless you are actually doing development on the base system
[21:19] <ajalkane> Pff... you always learn something new everyday... The older you get, the more it seems the new things you learn are annoying things :P
[21:19] <dobey> in which case you re-flash the phone quite a lot
[21:31] <mcphail> ajalkane: wait and se how things go. To my eyes, the confinement models of click and snappy have definite advantages and disadvantages compared to debs. I think further thought is required before they can replace debs entirely
[21:38] <dobey> mcphail: they won't replace debs entirely.
[21:39] <mcphail> dobey: they have on snappy core ;)
[21:40] <dobey> mcphail: one system not using debs does not mean that debs have been replaced entirely
[21:43] <mcphail> dobey: maybe, but you've got to wonder about the final model for Ubuntu. A hotch-potch of .snaps and .debs is rather unappealing
[21:44] <dobey> no, i don't have to wonder :)