[00:00] <keithzg> bob2021: That's interesting, I would have thought at very least it would give the "Run google-chome" option since it's a valid command. Hmm.
[00:03] <keithzg> bob2021: Do you have /usr/share/applications/google-chrome.desktop  ?
[00:06] <bob2021> keithzg yes that's there
[00:14] <keithzg> bob2021: Ostensibly, KDE should be reading that.
[00:14] <keithzg> Have you restarted your session since you've installed Chrome?
[00:15] <bob2021> keithzg: yes
[00:16] <keithzg> bob2021: In a terminal, does "locate google-chrome.desktop" return any results other than that?
[00:17] <bob2021> keithzg: yeah, one in ~/.local/share...
[00:18] <keithzg> bob2021: I'd run a diff between that one and the /usr/share/applications one; differences between them could be screwing things up. Might even be worth just removing the ~/.local/share one and seeing if that solves things.
[00:18] <bob2021> keithz: looking in ~/.local/share, there are a lot of chrome- entries as well and one Chrome.desktop
[00:18] <bob2021> keithz: do i need to do anything for kde to re-read the DIR?
[00:19] <valorie> you can always `mv ~/.local/share/whatever ~/.local/share/whatever.bak
[00:20] <keithzg> It should automatically do that upon starting a new session, I *think*. There's probably a way to re-run the scraping manually, though; the "xdg-desktop-menu" command should do that, not entirely sure if KDE uses only that or does additional indexing of some kind.
[00:20] <valorie> from if you logout and do it from a terminal
[00:20] <bob2021> keithzg & valorie: looking in the one in .local, it was installed by Unity.  Should i just kill it?
[00:20] <valorie> mv is always safer
[00:21] <valorie> since that way you can mv it back
[00:22] <bob2021> yup! that did it, thanks guys, as soon as i moved the one Unity installed, it started working
[00:23] <bob2021> ok... next issue -- linux thinks my apple Magic Trackpad 2 is a tablet or a mouse, and its not using the Synaptics driver, which disables multi-touch and gestures.
[00:23] <bob2021> how can i force it to think of the trackpad as a touchpad?
[00:26] <valorie> might do to look at the synaptics driver rc file or so
[00:26] <valorie> either in .local or in .config
[00:27] <valorie> what version of kubuntu are you runnin, bob2021?
[00:27] <valorie> running
[00:27] <valorie> because in kde4 days, that would be ~/.kde/share/config probably
[00:28] <bob2021> valorie: i started with ubuntu 15.10 and installed kde desktop yesterday.  so, yesterday's version
[00:29] <valorie> ok, forget the .kde then
[00:29] <valorie> it's all in ~/.local or ~/.config now
[00:29] <valorie> and if you find an old conflicting file in .kde, blow it away
[00:30] <bob2021> valorie i'd think it has to do with hci and udev
[00:31] <valorie> ok, I don't know anything about that
[00:31] <valorie> !touchpad
[00:31] <valorie> best I got
[00:31] <valorie> good old ubottu
[00:32] <bob2021> yeah tried that
[00:33] <valorie> :(
[00:46] <bob2021> oh wow its not getting any sound either
[00:46] <bob2021> not seeing the sound card
[00:49] <valorie> we've had reports that for some reason, some users were removed from the Sound group
[00:49] <valorie> once added back in, all was well
[00:49] <valorie> I think that's how the fix went....
[00:50] <bob2021> valorie: you mean in /etc/group? I don't even have a sound group
[00:50] <valorie> audio group I should have said
[00:50] <valorie> user management has the groups I believe, in systemsettings
[00:51] <bob2021> valorie you're right i'm not there, should i be?
[00:51] <valorie> oops, dinner time
[00:51] <valorie> yes, you should
[01:00] <bob2021> anything else i need to be added to?
[01:00] <bob2021> lightdm?
[01:00] <bob2021> pulse?
[01:03] <bob2021> valorie: is there a way to see if this works without rebooting or logging out?
[01:27] <bob2021> can anyone tell me how to restart audio?
[01:58] <frogonwheels_> bob2021: you probably want to logout
[01:59] <frogonwheels> bob2021: groups are a bit funny like that.
[01:59] <bob2021> frogonwheel: if i logout, then processes running inside of screen will terminate, right?
[01:59] <frogonwheels> bob2021: you mean 'screen' program? Just detach the screen session and reattach later
[01:59] <frogonwheels> bob2021: or do you mean just on the display.. yeah.. they will stop.
[02:00] <bob2021> frogonwheels yes.  if i logout completely though, won't they terminate if detached?
[02:00] <frogonwheels> bob2021: if you reboot they will. but if you just logout, why should they?
[02:01] <bob2021> because the parent process terminated?  ok i guess i can try it
[02:07] <bob2021> ok here goes...
[02:22] <em> Sometimes when I turn on my laptop I see this error on the black screen before it goes to the KDE GUI --- ".... *ERROR* The master control interrupt lied (SDE)!"
[02:22] <em> what does it mean?
[02:22] <em> could it be the root cause of my other buggy experiences with Kubuntu?
[02:43] <bob2021> hey - can someone help me get my sound working?  i just tried logging in and out after adding myself to the audio group,a nd still nothing
[02:43] <bob2021> all the working audio cards are greyed-out and the only one not greyed out is the "dummy"
[02:48] <bob2021> i take that back - now i see the cards in "Audio Hardware Setup" but not in "Device Preference"
[02:55] <kroot_> hi@all
[04:00] <bob2021> my sound still isnt working :(
[04:00] <bob2021> will someone help me? i feel like i'm deaf
[04:42] <bob2021> hey?
[04:52] <buriedalive> bob2021 I'm alive :)
[04:56] <bob2021> but buried, sadly
[04:56] <bob2021> anyway, i have no sound???
[04:57] <buriedalive> bob2021 what is ur distro?
[05:01] <bob2021> ubuntu 15.10 with kde desktop installed on top
[05:02] <buriedalive> I'm more than about 14.04 dont know, sorry
[05:03] <buriedalive> 15.10 never installed
[05:03] <bob2021> buriedalive well nevertheless you may be able to help
[05:04] <bob2021> the sound cards all show up in "Phonon Audio and Video", but all the ones that work are greyed out, and only Dummy Output is selectable
[05:09] <buriedalive> maybe ull try remove all filesand folders, associated with soundserver pulseaudio? for example - ~/.pulse, ~/.pulse-cookie, ~/.config/pulse
[05:09] <buriedalive> and restart?
[05:11] <buriedalive> but I'm not so sure about it
[05:11] <bob2021> buriedalive i can't restart now though; and hwo do i make sure its using phonon instead of pulse?
[05:13] <buriedalive> dont know, or try to full restart pulseaudio
[05:44] <bob2021> can someone help me with my sound?
[05:59] <valorie> em: look at http://www.spinics.net/lists/intel-gfx/msg81325.html -- it's just a warning
[06:00] <valorie> bob2021: have you gone through the ubuntu doc on sound?
[06:00] <valorie> !sound
[06:00] <valorie> the troubleshooting one
[06:03] <bob2021> valorie: yes, i did fix it! just a minute ago.  it was a combination of what you said about the audio group, and what buriedalive said about restarting pulse
[06:03] <bob2021> i thought i restarted pulse, but its a stubborn little f'er
[06:04] <bob2021> thanks both of you!!!
[06:04] <bob2021> now, what about the trackpad? :)
[06:04] <bob2021> I'm hving this issue:  https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/274078
[06:05] <valorie> bob2021: for starters, add yourself as affected by that bug
[06:06] <valorie> hmmm, I don't see that button
[06:06] <valorie> maybe because janitor closed it
[06:07] <valorie> I assume that this is a kernel bug, and not an Ubuntu one
[06:07] <valorie> so I guess I would chat with the wise folks in #ubuntu-kernel and get their opinion
[06:08] <valorie> they helped me a lot when I had an equivalent issue
[06:09] <TJ-> You know about the sysfs /new_id bind-adhoc-device-to-driver facility?
[06:10] <bob2021> valorie: i did add myself, i'm the last commenter
[06:11] <bob2021> i think its a HID bug
[06:11] <bob2021> do they have a channel?
[06:11] <valorie> HID?
[06:11] <valorie> perhaps ask alis
[06:11] <valorie> !alis
[06:11] <TJ-> If a driver has the /new_id node you can simply do "echo vendor device >/sys/..../new_id" to have the driver (attempt to) bind to that device
[06:11] <bob2021> HID is what on linux tells linux what each piece of hardwarwe goes with which driver
[06:12] <TJ-> e.g. "echo 004c 0265 > /sys/bus/hid/drivers/hid-generic/new_id"
[06:12] <valorie> if it was simple to fix, wouldn't it already be done?
[06:12] <valorie> in general, writing drivers for closed stuff like Apple is difficult
[06:13] <TJ-> valorie: it's not a fix; it's a workaround when a driver doesn't currently declare a (new) device ID in its internal 'alias' structures
[06:13] <valorie> the people I know who do software <> hardware integration work are the smartest people I know
[06:14] <bob2021> valorie: its probably just adding an entry for this hardware id to a text file
[06:15] <TJ-> bob2021: which driver should handle the device? I presume the synaptic driver?
[06:15] <bob2021> TJ- Yes
[06:15] <bob2021> as far as i know
[06:15] <bob2021> oh hey tj! remember me?
[06:15] <bob2021> i'm bob2017 in mac os x, but i got ubuntu working
[06:16] <TJ-> hmmm, or it might be hid-multitouch.ko
[06:17] <bob2021> tj- well either way
[06:18] <TJ-> I just manually loaded that module. If it is loaded you can do (as UID 0) "echo $VENDOR $DEVICE > /sys/bus/hid/drivers/hid-multitouch/new_id" to test it
[06:18] <TJ-> So, worth testing it out
[06:20] <bob2021> TJ- do i have to do anything before and after so the system knows it needs to do that?
[06:20] <bob2021> or the system rather sees the change
[06:20] <TJ-> identify the VENDOR DEVICE ID values, then (as UID 0) issue that command with the specific (hexadecimal) values
[06:21] <TJ-> if the device is USB then "lsusb"
[06:22] <bob2021> TJ- its bt, and i knew what they are before, i can't recall the commad to bring it up though
[06:23] <bob2021> got it let me try...
[06:24] <TJ-> if it is Bluetooth then use "bluetoothctl" then at its command-line prompt "list-devices", get the MAC ID of the connected device, then do "info <MAC_ADDRESS>" and look at the "Modalias" value
[06:24] <bob2021> TJ- I don't have a hid-multitouch directory, should i create that?
[06:25] <bob2021> i found the ids with cat /proc/bus/input/devices
[06:25] <TJ-> bob2021: "sudo modprobe hid-multitouch" to load the module
[06:26] <TJ-> bob2021: if using 'sudo' then "echo $VENDOR $DEVICE | sudo tee /sys/bus/hid/drivers/hid-multitouch/new_id"
[06:26] <TJ-> after that check the tail of the kernel log to see how the driver reacted. "tail /var/log/kern.log" or "dmesg | tail"
[06:26] <bob2021> do i need to quote 'vendor device'
[06:26] <TJ-> bob2021: no, but ensure there's a space between the 2 values
[06:27] <bob2021> TJ- I mean for the echo command, because its not expecting multiple arguments
[06:27] <TJ-> bob2021: echo will 'echo' everything until the end of the command-line; in this case up to the | pipe operator
[06:28] <bob2021> from my own uid i get permission denied.  from sudo su, i get "echo: write error: Invalid argument"
[06:30] <TJ-> bob2021: "echo $VENDOR $DEVICE | sudo tee /sys/bus/hid/drivers/hid-multitouch/new_id"
[06:30] <bob2021> tj- yes, and replacing the $ with the hex, i've been doing that exactly
[06:30] <TJ-> bob2021: what absolute values are you gucing it
[06:30] <TJ-> giving
[06:30] <bob2021> sudo echo 004c 0265 > sudo tee /sys/bus/hid/drivers/hid-multitouch/new_id
[06:30] <TJ-> let me check that
[06:30] <bob2021> and as root... echo 004c 0265 > /sys/bus/hid/drivers/hid-multitouch/new_id
[06:31] <bob2021> oh pipe
[06:31] <bob2021> oops
[06:31] <bob2021> ok with the pipe,   tee: /sys/bus/hid/drivers/hid-multitouch/new_id: Invalid argument
[06:32] <TJ-> hmm; try making the Letters UPPER CASE (004C)
[06:32] <TJ-> I thought in the kernel it doesn't matter, but maybe I'm confusing that with something else
[06:33] <bob2021> no you're right but i tried it anyway and same thing
[06:33] <bob2021> what does it mean? if anything?
[06:33] <TJ-> let me check the source
[06:33] <TJ-> have you looked at the kernel log in case the module is reporting a problem ?
[06:34] <bob2021> just did, it hasn't logged anything for 30 minutes
[06:35] <rvk> hi
[06:35] <TJ-> bob2021: OK, give me a moment to check whether it's the new_id part failing, or the device+driver combo after the device tries to bind
[06:35] <bob2021> thanks :)
[06:36] <bob2021> oh - btw did you see the link i pasted? it has links to a bunch of other people reporting the same issue in october/november.  but then there was no activity
[06:37] <TJ-> OK...
[06:37] <TJ->   ret = sscanf(buf, "%x %x %x %lx",
[06:37] <TJ->       &bus, &vendor, &product, &driver_data);
[06:37] <TJ->   if (ret < 3)
[06:37] <TJ->     return -EINVAL;
[06:37] <bob2021> you want me to run this?
[06:37] <TJ-> that's in drivers/hid/hid-core.c::store_new_id()
[06:38] <TJ-> No, I'm showing you the code that is throwing the error. You see the "sscanf(...)" function call
[06:38] <bob2021> yes
[06:38] <TJ-> the "%x %x %x %lx" means read 4 space-separated numbers. 0-2 are integers, 3 is a long-integer
[06:39] <bob2021> so what's the type of ret?  a tuple?
[06:39] <bob2021> g-d every time i see C i'm reminded why i stopped coding in C
[06:39] <TJ-> and the next line shows which variable names those values are put into, so we know the format is 'bus' 'vendor' 'product' 'driver-data' ... which doesn't match the standard way that new_id is processed
[06:39] <bob2021> so should i just put the bus in first?
[06:40] <TJ-> the function is called with "const char *buf" so I think that comes directly from userspace; let me check that first
[06:40] <TJ-> That's what I'm wondering
[06:42] <TJ-> I'm guessing the sub-system fills in the 'bus' and 'driver_data' and then calls the hid-core
[06:46] <TJ-> OK, the "if (re < 3) means it must have at least 3 args. In the equivalent USB code it only needs 2
[06:46] <TJ-> So, now the question is, what kind of value does the 'bus' take
[06:46] <bob2021> i just checked, and apt told me multitouch isn't installed.  i apt installed it, and then modprobe multitouch told me the module couldn't be found
[06:46] <bob2021> TJ- well that's easy, the Bus is part of the same line in /proc/whatebver
[06:47] <bob2021> I: Bus=0005 Vendor=004c Product=0265 Version=0062
[06:47] <bob2021> ok that time the command did not return an error
[06:47] <bob2021> how do i check if it worked?
[06:50] <TJ-> I'm making progress tracing it:
[06:50] <TJ-> struct hid_device_id {
[06:50] <TJ->   __u16 bus;
[06:50] <TJ->   __u16 group;
[06:50] <TJ->   __u32 vendor;
[06:50] <TJ->   __u32 product;
[06:50] <bob2021> TJ- well the command worked
[06:50] <bob2021> but i'm not seeing any change, i'm not sure where to check
[06:51] <TJ-> right, so, 'bus' is a 16-bit number on the specific PC, not some static value as in bus-type (USB, BT, PCI, etc.). If there's nothing in the kernel log that means the device probe didn't match
[06:51] <bob2021> nothing in the kernel log
[06:52] <TJ-> So, either we're messing with the wrong device driver entirely, and should try some other, or there is no suitable support currently available
[06:54] <bob2021> ok what do you suggest?
[07:02] <TJ-> I'm doing some reading; It looks as if due it the 2's very recent release no-one has yet worked on it that I can find
[07:03] <bob2021> wow really?  in 3 months?
[07:03] <TJ-> there's some indication that it has to be sent commands to enable the expected functionality
[07:03] <bob2021> there are at least 4 bugs posted about it
[07:03] <bob2021> where do you see this?
[07:03] <TJ-> 3 months? usually I'd expect a proprietary device like that to be 12 months at the earliest before it is reverse-engineered; and that depends on some developer being interested enough
[07:03] <bob2021> i figured if all the bug posts were from the start of november, and there's no resolution but they died-out in a week, it must have been solved
[07:04] <bob2021> Apple isn't releasing the basic driver protocol?
[07:04] <TJ-> This is why closed-source hardware/software is not appreciated
[07:04] <bob2021> often there are api's though.
[07:04] <bob2021> why would anyone care about protecting the protocol for a trackpad handshake?
[07:05] <TJ-> Ask Apple, they've made a business out of it
[07:05] <bob2021> the protocols?
[07:05] <TJ-> the entire approach
[07:05] <TJ-> locking out owners of devices from using it as they choose
[07:05] <bob2021> well Steve J always thought his competitor was Sony, not MS.  he was in the personal electronics business
[07:06] <bob2021> wow down 30% over the year
[07:06] <bob2021> poor Tim Cook
[07:07] <TJ-> I've spent/wasted years reverse-engineering devices that the manufacturers have locked up like this; I eventually realised if they're not going to provide the technical info needed I'm not going to donate my time to making their device more useable
[07:08] <bob2021> but anyway, so you think i shouldn't bother?  is there a link to what you saw?
[07:09] <TJ-> The links off the AskUbuntu question you posted
[07:10] <TJ-> Hmmm, looks like we were messing with the wrong driver. Apparently the original Magic Trackpad uses the hid-magicmouse driver
[07:11] <TJ-> So "sudo modprobe --remove hid-multitouch"
[07:11] <TJ-> then "sudo modprobe hid-magicmouse" and check it exposes the /new_id node
[07:12] <TJ-> OK, the target node for that would be "/sys/bus/hid/drivers/magicmouse/new_id"
[07:13] <bob2021> done
[07:13] <bob2021> so what do i check now?
[07:14] <TJ-> if you've echoed the ID, check the kernel log again. Inserting the new_id causes the device to be probed. So if it is recognised there'll be messages in the log
[07:14] <bob2021> nope
[07:14] <bob2021> nothing in the log
[07:14] <TJ-> which kernel version are you using "uname -r"
[07:15] <bob2021> 4.2
[07:15] <TJ-> let me see if there are any recent commits for that driver
[07:16] <TJ-> No, nothing
[07:18] <TJ-> And unfortunately the driver hasn't been converted to use dyanmic_debug, so we can't enable additional reporting easily
[07:19] <TJ-> I wonder if we need to *unbind* the device from its current driver first. Does your system show it has bound to another driver?
[07:19] <bob2021> TJ where would i check that?
[07:21] <TJ-> The node is /remove_id but I don't see one accessible via sysfs that seems to relate to the generic HID
[07:29] <TJ-> Looks like you could use the /unbind interface. In that case, you have to write the HID ID of the device-node, which you can see as a symlink with "ls -l /sys/bus/hid/drivers/hid-generic/" as 4 groups of hexadec numbers xxxx:xxxxx:xxxx.yyyy.
[07:30] <TJ-> e.g. for a BT mouse I see "0005:046D:B002.0016 -> ../../../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.2/usb7/7-2/7-2.1/7-2.1:1.0/bluetooth/hci0/hci0:11/0005:046D:B002.0016/" so "0005:046D:B002.0016" is the HID ID
[07:42] <NastyButtler> hey dudes
[07:43] <NastyButtler> new to this, want to connect with http://irc.evilzone.org/
[07:51] <hateball> NastyButtler: Do you have a Kubuntu support question?
[12:17] <benvantende> morning people! i have tried many things to make (Baloo) search work in Dolphin. Since 15.10 search is mostly greyed. I have tried most steps available on the internet. Does anyone have a magic bullet?
[12:18] <hateball> benvantende: is this a fresh install or an upgrade?
[12:19] <hateball> benvantende: what does "balooctl status" say?
[12:21] <madmouser1> hi all, is there a way to set the wallpaper in Kubuntu via the terminal?
[12:22] <hateball> madmouser1: well you can edit plasmarc and supply your own path
[12:22] <hateball> I am not sure if there is a qdbus command to do it
[12:24] <madmouser1> thanks hateball that put me on the right track
[12:24] <hateball> :)
[12:25] <madmouser1> there she is ... usersWallpapers=
[12:30] <benvantende> hateball: upgrade and status says:
[12:30] <benvantende> Baloo File Indexer is running
[12:30] <benvantende> Indexer state: Idle
[12:30] <benvantende> Indexed 47365 / 47365 files
[12:30] <benvantende> Current size of index is 195,86 MiB
[12:31] <benvantende> hateball: i rebuilt the index a couple of times. the first time that worked, but did not last
[12:32] <benvantende> hateball: what seems interesting is what the criteria for greying out for dolphin are
[12:32] <hateball> hmmm
[12:33] <benvantende> hateball: hmmm indeed ;)
[12:33] <hateball> I don't really have any other troubleshooting advice than to wipe the index and rebuild
[12:33] <hateball> Not sure how you can trace where it craps up
[12:34] <benvantende> i did that wiping a few times already, so that is probably not going to work.
[12:35] <benvantende> does dolphin have a dedicated issue tracker btw?
[12:36] <hateball> benvantende: not sure, #kde will know
[12:37] <benvantende> hateball: thanks - makes sense
[13:17] <BluesKaj> Hey all
[15:51] <starcraftman> Question, recently started using kubuntu 15.10. Have set autostart script in startup settings and on reboot it dissapears (including link in ~/.config/autostart-scripts).
[15:51] <starcraftman> Anyone else had this? Google only showed me an old closed bug.
[17:10] <BluesKaj> Maxiride_, check your irc connection
[21:21] <cosec_> how do i dual boot kubuntu with another distribution
[21:22] <cosec_> i let kubuntu use the entire hard drive while installing it
[21:23] <soee_> cosec_: and you have 2 dardrives ?
[21:23] <soee_> *harddrives?
[21:23] <cosec_> i have only one drive
[21:23] <cosec_> :(
[21:23] <cosec_> laptop
[21:24] <soee_> anad what systems do you want to have ?
[21:24] <cosec_> a lenovo y460 running kubuntu 15.10
[21:25] <cosec_> soee_: any ideas?
[21:26] <cosec_> the way i figure it, i need to make another partition
[21:26] <soee_> so one system not dualboot ?
[21:26] <cosec_> the system is not dual boot
[21:26] <cosec_> :(
[21:26] <cosec_> TT
[21:26] <soee_> ah 2 distributions you want
[21:27] <cosec_> yes yes
[21:27] <cosec_> one light weight distribution for conserving battery
[21:27] <soee_> well i never tried that but yes i suggest atleast 2 partitions
[21:27] <cosec_> yes, thats  what i figured i should do
[21:28] <soee_> but maybe even better option would be:
[21:28] <cosec_> really ?
[21:28] <soee_> 1 partition for / of first distro, 1 partition for / second distro and separate (third) partition for /home (both distro can share same home - ust give users different names)
[21:29] <cosec_> that sounds really cool
[21:29] <cosec_> how do i partition my drives ?
[21:30] <soee_> do you plan to install Kubuntu ?
[21:30] <cosec_> nope
[21:30] <cosec_> lubuntu perhaps
[21:30] <cosec_> coz its lightweight'
[21:30] <soee_> so why are you on Kubuntu support channel ?
[21:30] <cosec_> i am using kubuntu r8 no
[21:30] <cosec_> w
[21:31] <soee_> ok but if you want to use dofferent distros, join their support channel as i can't help with different distros setup
[21:32] <cosec_> wahaaha
[21:52] <dobigeon> Hello / Bonjour !
[22:01] <Stern> Does anyone have an alternative for Okular? My PDF files show up half empty due to some exotic PDF format.
[22:02] <Fritigern> The only alternative that I am aware of (although there may be ones that I don;t know of) would be the actual Adobe Reader
[22:03] <genii> Stern: Have you tried opening it in LibreOffice Writer?
[22:08] <acher88> foxit reader https://www.foxitsoftware.com/downloads/
[22:08] <acher88> evince (gnome)
[22:09] <acher88> atril (equivalent from mate desktop)
[22:31] <Stern> genii: Unfortunately still half empty in LibreOffice Write
[22:31] <Stern> Gonna try foxit
[22:31] <genii> Sounds like some screwy pdf file
[22:31] <Stern> It's an invoice of my telephone company
[22:32] <Stern> Low budget in everything, even IT
[22:38] <Stern> Opening the PDF with Chromium browser solves the problem. Still gonna file a complaint though.
[22:43] <genii> Maybe it has something like web links embedded it in it that just appear as empty space when you use a regular viewer
[22:46] <Stern> Or maybe it contains XFA?