[00:39] <shibboleth> Anyone even alive in here?
[00:41] <lpotter> I am.
[00:42] <shibboleth> nice :)
[00:45] <Bray90820> Can i install unity on ubuntu touch so i can basically have a desktop experience on my tablet
[01:02] <matv1> lpotter hey
[01:02] <lpotter> hi
[01:03] <matv1> about the xhr discussion :)
[01:03] <matv1> i was still wondering.
[01:03] <matv1> you confirmed the error i was getting right
[01:03] <lpotter> yes
[01:04] <matv1> and you pointed out that at least the yandex app also generated that error
[01:04] <matv1> even though the programmer that made that, said it worked
[01:04] <lpotter> yes, as would any click app that uses QNetworkRequest
[01:05] <matv1> ok
[01:05] <lpotter> yes, it's possible the request can succeed, if QNAM thinks Accessibility is Unknown, which most likely would be
[01:06] <lpotter> we are working on getting around that issue by creating a new bearer plugin that does not talk to network manager directly
[01:07] <matv1> I see
[01:09] <matv1> I assumed UT just used regular qt bearer
[01:12] <matv1> but I dont really know enough about the inner workings of that :(
[01:13] <matv1> anyway whta your saying is that as an app developer I neednt worry about these errors. especially once that fix lands
[01:13] <lpotter> qt bearer has platform specific backends it can use
[01:13] <matv1> ah
[01:13] <lpotter> well, depends on the application
[01:13] <lpotter> if the request succeeds, then no worries
[01:16] <matv1> hm so in which kinds of situations would qnam through a blocking error instead  of accepting accessibility unknown?
[01:17] <lpotter> if it cannot determine the online state, the it is Unknown, until user explicitly sets the NetworkAccessibility.
[01:18] <lpotter> to NotAccessible
[01:19] <matv1> ah i see
[01:19] <lpotter> normally, Accessibility follows the online state
[01:19] <lpotter> some weird left over symbian thing
[01:20] <matv1> wow that is old indeed
[01:20] <matv1> :)
[01:20] <matv1> well I am older actually
[01:20] <matv1> anyway thanks for clarifying
[01:20] <lpotter> and until recently, never actually worked!
[01:21] <matv1> not even in the symbian days ??
[01:21] <lpotter> maybe. for symbian
[01:22] <matv1> and when will that bearer fix land do you know?
[01:23] <lpotter> not real sure, depends on when the connectivity-api fixes land first :)
[01:23] <matv1> oh
[01:24] <matv1> and thats not even in a proposed image yet right?
[01:25] <lpotter> no
[01:25] <matv1> ok no worries
[01:26] <matv1> well thanks very much for clearing stuff up for me!
[01:26] <matv1> im off cheers
[01:26] <lpotter> ok. bye
[02:14] <dobey> Bray90820: the ubuntu phone/tablet images already have unity on them
[02:33] <muka> has new upgrade fixed mako's tethering?
[02:34] <muka> how about hotspot?
[02:37] <dobey> muka: have you filed a bug about rndis being broken on mako?
[02:38] <muka> well, I just added a comment to existing filed bug.
[02:40] <dobey> ok
[02:41] <dobey> i just tried here and it doesn't work for me on latest rc-proposed image; but the phone is on wifi only
[03:09] <muka> is it possible to share phone's camera with computer? This connection may be via usb.
[03:15] <dobey> no
[03:16] <dobey> muka: i don't think android low level provides a way to do that
[03:17] <muka> ok, thank you.
[06:14] <Bray90820> dobey: I meant the desktop version on unity
[09:07] <yellabs-r2> hello there
[09:08] <yellabs-r2> is this the right place to ask questions about the ubuntu phone ?
[09:08] <yellabs-r2> E5 Bq
[09:09] <yellabs-r2> with update OTA-9
[09:10] <lotuspsychje> yellabs-r2: yes
[09:10] <yellabs-r2> can i somehow improve video playback ? cant find any settings to set it to a lower quality video so that it does not stutter
[09:10] <lotuspsychje> yellabs-r2: what kind of format your playing?
[09:11] <yellabs-r2> http://www.actualized.org/
[09:11] <yellabs-r2> from this website
[09:11] <yellabs-r2> i think its html 5 video
[09:11] <lotuspsychje> yellabs-r2: does other video play well?
[09:12] <yellabs-r2> have not tried that yet ..
[09:12] <lotuspsychje> yellabs-r2: try a youtube
[09:18] <yellabs-r2> tried normal and hd
[09:18] <yellabs-r2> of youtube
[09:18] <yellabs-r2> that seems okey
[09:19] <yellabs-r2> still the question remains , can i acces settings somehow for video quality settings
[09:20] <tvoss> yellabs-r2, looking at the website, the videos are hosted on youtube, aren't they?
[09:20] <yellabs-r2> maybe the stutter ( video ) is due to network ( wifi ) , but there is no networkspeed settings
[09:20] <tvoss> yellabs-r2, it's the web page's responsibility to provide means for adjusting the video quality
[09:21] <yellabs-r2> actually no , they are not..
[09:22] <yellabs-r2> sure i understand that, but i think for the phone its not a bad idea for future development to add some control
[09:22] <yellabs-r2> that is for video settings / and network wifi speed settings
[09:23] <tvoss> yellabs-r2, that's not possible, unfortunately. we have no control over the content/content delivery mechanism, so while we could scale down the video on the device, it would still require the full resolution to be transmitted unless the website offers different resolutions themselves
[09:23] <yellabs-r2> in theory , it tries to load the highest quality video and that causes stutter / or and / it stutters on wifi speed connection issue's
[09:24] <tvoss> yellabs-r2, sure, the site needs to announce other/lower resolutions. if those are available, they will be used (see youtube hd setting)
[09:24] <tvoss> yellabs-r2, the youtube hd setting is provided by youtube, not by the platform
[09:25] <tvoss> yellabs-r2, I also just tried this one: http://www.actualized.org/articles/free-will-vs-determinism
[09:25] <tvoss> yellabs-r2, there is a little knob on the bottom right of the video that allowed me to switch to 240p (typical youtube setup)
[09:27] <yellabs-r2> hmm, i dont have that botton
[09:27] <yellabs-r2> thats odd
[09:27] <yellabs-r2> i do see a botton to switch to fullscreen
[09:27] <yellabs-r2> wich afcause works fine .. ;)
[09:27] <yellabs-r2> what phone do you have ?
[09:28] <lotuspsychje> i play video's fine on bq 4.5 here
[09:28] <yellabs-r2> it play's but stutters
[09:28] <yellabs-r2> http://www.actualized.org/
[09:29] <yellabs-r2> over here ..
[09:31] <tvoss> yellabs-r2, hmmm, krillin, vegetahd and arale
[09:32] <victor_bq> Hi all! someone to lend a hand?
[09:33] <tvoss> yellabs-r2, it might well be that I'm using a funky dev version here :) at any rate: I will file a bug to make sure that youtube html5 player quality options are always available
[09:33] <tvoss> victor_bq, how can I help?
[09:34] <yellabs-r2> that would be great
[09:35] <JamesTait> Good morning all!  Happy Friday, and happy Doodle Day! 😃
[09:36] <yellabs-r2> also , maybe ,  a way to check and toggle wifi connection settings ( b/bg/n etc )
[09:36] <yellabs-r2> but there might be other things that the developers need to adress, i understand that there is more than just this small thing .. ;)
[09:38] <yellabs-r2> checked bitrate , its at 65 Mb/s , so that seems to be okey ..
[09:38] <yellabs-r2> ;)
[09:38] <yellabs-r2> wifi ..
[09:39] <victor_bq> well we've got a customer worried about performance
[09:39] <victor_bq> if you enable rw permissions and do an update && upgrade you can install hto
[09:39] <victor_bq> htop to watch CPU ram consumption etc
[09:40] <victor_bq> and wen running htop only 2 cores appear
[09:40] <victor_bq> he feels like we are hidding smthing hehe
[09:40] <tvoss> victor_bq, that's a krillin, correct?
[09:40] <victor_bq> yeah
[09:41] <victor_bq> I'm doing the same in vegeta as we speak
[09:42] <john-mcaleely> victor_bq, I'm not sure when the krillin goes to max, as it were
[09:42] <tvoss> victor_bq, we are also working on improving that specific part
[09:43] <tvoss> john-mcaleely, do we have a public bug tracking the issue already?
[09:43] <john-mcaleely> tvoss, not that I'm aware of
[09:44] <victor_bq> reporting if you let me :)
[09:44] <tvoss> victor_bq, feel free
[09:44] <victor_bq> great
[09:44] <victor_bq> thank you all! =)
[09:54] <victor_bq> https://bugs.launchpad.net/canonical-devices-system-image/+bug/1542244
[09:54] <tvoss> victor_bq, yw
[09:54] <ubot5`> Launchpad bug 1542244 in Canonical System Image "htop does not show all cores in krillin and vegeta" [Undecided,New]
[10:27] <mcphail> In the aftermath of the malicious app which was posted to the Store a few months ago, was a fix applied purely to the Store uploads, or was there also a fix applied to the phone platform?
[10:30] <pa> hello
[10:30] <pa> i was cheching in the wrong channel: are you guys still supporting the choice of having a carousel-alike open app overview on ubuntu phone/touch?
[10:31] <pa> i mean this: http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news2/Ubuntu-Touch-RTM-Update-10-Important-Milestone-Achieved-Screenshot-Tour-466165-8.jpg
[10:31] <k1l_> pa: that is still used
[10:32] <pa> k1l_, but will it still be the preferred and only option ?
[10:32] <k1l_> iirc yes
[10:32] <pa> :(
[10:32] <pa> k1l_, do yourself think it's a sensible one?
[10:32] <k1l_> i am not aware of a setting to change that
[10:32] <pa> don't you think a simple matrix would work much better?
[10:32] <k1l_> where is the issue with that?
[10:32] <pa> k1l_, like it's not usable?
[10:33] <pa> like at all?
[10:33] <mcphail> pa: it is quick, simple and intuitive. What's not to like?
[10:33] <pa> it's not on windows
[10:33] <pa> imagine on a touch
[10:33] <pa> intuitive: not
[10:33] <pa> quick: not
[10:33] <pa> simple: neither
[10:33] <pa> please consider a bloody matrix
[10:33] <k1l_> pa: i think its ery usable
[10:33] <pa> like meego/bb10/jolla
[10:33] <pa> at least as an option
[10:33] <mcphail> pa: try to keep the language polite
[10:34] <k1l_> pa: android uses a simial thing, and we all know how much marketshare android got :)
[10:34] <k1l_> *similar
[10:34] <pa> k1l_, that's the wrong argument, if you ask me.
[10:34] <pa> Beside, i'm asking here because i really wish ubuntu touch not to be the next firefox OS
[10:34] <k1l_> pa: then "but jolla uses that" is not an argument, too
[10:34] <pa> k1l_, have you used an N9?
[10:35] <k1l_> pa: no.
[10:35] <pa> k1l_, are you an ubuntu touch developer?
[10:35] <k1l_> nope
[10:35] <pa> ok
[10:35] <pa> coz if you were, i'd strongly advice you to use an N9 for a month or two
[10:35] <pa> then you would reconsider some of the ubuntu touch desing choices
[10:36] <k1l_> glad i dont have to now :)
[10:36] <pa> k1l_, you don't know, believe me
[10:37] <mcphail> pa: I would be hugely surprised if the ubuntu devs would want to spend time changing this. The task switcher is very slick, very fast, works well and looks beautiful. There are more pressing priorities for improvement, imho
[10:37] <pa> anyway, i hope there will be a second choice to that carousel
[10:37] <pa> i find it completely unusable
[10:37] <pa> it was already on windows
[10:37] <pa> imagine on a touch
[10:37] <k1l_> pa: what about the OSS hammer: "its OSS just code a better one"? :)
[10:37] <mcphail> pa: you have used it on the Ubuntu phone?
[10:37] <pa> mcphail, sadly yes
[10:38] <mcphail> pa: and what do you find difficult?
[10:38] <pa> the conclusion was "interesting. Far far from being ready"
[10:38] <pa> mcphail, using it
[10:38] <mcphail> hokay
[10:38] <mcphail> interesting
[10:38] <k1l_> with the swipe gestures that is a very intuitive task switcher following the swipe gesture
[10:39] <pa> swipe gestures are okay, but could be better
[10:39] <pa> the task switcher is not okay
[10:39] <pa> because what it fails to provide is a sensible overview
[10:39] <pa> if you have more than 4 apps open, you have to pass them all to find the one you want
[10:39] <MCMiic> pa: I like the carousel for daily use. But you don’t have to use it there is the task bar on the left which also lists open applications.
[10:40] <pa> MCMiic, yeah.. that would better go soon..
[10:40] <MCMiic> ?
[10:40] <k1l_> pa: which is a quite fast process on the carousel
[10:40] <MCMiic> What do you mean?
[10:40] <pa> i can use your arguments, guys: android doesn't have such bar :)
[10:41] <pa> the so beloved launcher canonical keeps forcing everywhere is the most hated interface element of unity
[10:41] <MCMiic> You seem hard to content…
[10:41] <pa> together with the fact that on desktop it cant be relocated
[10:41] <pa> MCMiic, well i used better interfaces
[10:41] <MCMiic> I don’t use the bar because the carousel is fine for me
[10:41] <pa> i wish ubuntu touch to be better
[10:41] <pa> because i would like to use it
[10:41] <MCMiic> I’d just like a gesture for closing an app without using the carousel.
[10:42] <k1l_> ok, so ubuntu touch should be sailfish os. ok. we got that.
[10:42] <mcphail> pa: I suspect choosing an Ubuntu phone was a mistake on your part, if you don't like Unity. What were you expecting..?
[10:42] <pa> MCMiic, top swipe like on N9? :)
[10:42] <MCMiic> But I think ubuntu touch has far more urgent problems than these details
[10:42] <pa> mcphail, i didnt choose it. i tried it
[10:42] <pa> k1l_, no please
[10:43] <mcphail> pa: aah. Well, I'd suggest it isn't the platform for you as Unity isn't going away
[10:43] <pa> k1l_, sailfish sadly is meego done wrong. those guys started from an amazing starting point, and managed to screw it in almost every detail
[10:43] <pa> i think sailfish is even less usable than ubuntu touch
[10:43] <pa> mcphail, well i know that. i hope unity to improve
[10:43] <k1l_> pa: if you dont like unity. ubuntu touch will not be the GUI for you.
[10:44] <MCMiic> Maybe plasma mobile then? I’d love to try it ^^
[10:44] <pa> beside, if this is the attitude canonical keeps having, the firefoxOS end is close..
[10:44] <pa> i mean "this is the way. stick to it or go elsewhere"
[10:44] <k1l_> pa: sorry, but your attitude is even worse than what you accuse caninical for
[10:45] <MCMiic> I did not fill that reporting bug on ubuntu touch, they listen, at least a bit ^^
[10:45] <pa> k1l_, it's not for the simple fact that people complained for years about unity, and canonical just kept locking it down more and more
[10:45] <k1l_> pa: the attitude is "we do it our way, if you want another one use the open source and make it better"
[10:46] <k1l_> pa: there are enough other desktops. just use another one. there are millions of people fine with unity. just not the linux elite. they want their old gnome2 back.
[10:47] <pa> i do use ubuntu with another DM
[10:47] <k1l_> pa: that is fine
[10:47] <pa> if i cant do the same with ubuntu touch it's very likely i'm not getting an ubuntu phone
[10:47] <pa> and i fear, for canonical, that most of the users that use ubuntu without unity, will do the same
[10:49] <k1l_> so make a better gui for ubuntu-touch
[10:49] <pa> if it will get merged, i could think about i
[10:49] <k1l_> afaik kde mobile uses the ubuntu-touch base for their stuff.
[10:49] <pa> t
[10:49] <pa> what i essentially would like is the N9 interface, with the problems fixed
[10:50] <mcphail> pa: wishing doesn't help. Roll up your sleeves and do the work
[10:50] <k1l_> then i would ask the n9 guys to do that. and not others to be the n9 os
[10:51] <mcphail> pa: and don't expect everyone to share _your_ vision. There are more wishes than there are developers in the world
[10:57] <pa> k1l_, n9 is dead as nokia does not exist anymore. some of the guys tried to create sailfish, and we see they screwed and because of that they are in troubles
[10:57] <pa> mcphail, ok. but at least i tried ubuntu touch and im giving feedback. have you tried what im suggesting you to try?
[11:01] <pa> look at some video at least
[11:08] <mcphail> pa: no, because I'm not in the least bit interested. I have no will to port a UI to the phone. If you want to do it, go ahead or pay someone else to do it.
[11:09] <pa> there you go.
[11:09] <mcphail> pa: where did you get this sense of entitlement?
[11:10] <pa> from the fact i bothered to check what is out there and what has been done before. you apparently can't care less about the rest, are content with your unity, and even if there are solutions which are much better, you are not in the least bit interested.
[11:10] <pa> and if this is the sentiment in ubuntu and unity, well.
[11:10] <pa> then bye
[11:11] <pa> fail like firefox os or jolla
[11:25] <JanC> I doubt any OS fails by losing 1 user  ;)
[11:25] <JanC> unless that user is the financer of the OS
[11:25] <yellabs-r2> depends on the user .. ;)
[11:25]  * mcphail searches for one of those ragingly successful N9s to buy
[11:26] <JanC> oh, the N9 was pretty good AFAIK
[11:26] <k1l_> seems like everyone doesnt only want a android that isnt android, it needs to be meego that isnt meego now too.
[11:26] <mcphail> JanC: but quality != success
[11:26] <yellabs-r2> is this "happy news"?
[11:26] <yellabs-r2> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/02/bq-m10-ubuntu-tablet-everything-you-need-to-know
[11:27] <mcphail> yellabs-r2: of course!
[11:27] <JanC> mcphail: the lack of success of the N9 wasn't really because of the OS design though
[11:27] <mcphail> JanC: neither was the troll's assertion that adopting the Meego UI was going to be the key to Ubuntu's success or failure
[11:27] <k1l_> i waited for a proper new qwertz smartphone very long after i bought my motorola milestone. i thought "everyone needs a keyboard slider". but the facts were: no on beside some few nerds wants that.
[11:27] <yellabs-r2> finally convergence
[11:28] <yellabs-r2> i had contact with Bq , for my E5 Phone , and asked about convergence
[11:28] <yellabs-r2> they had never heard of it..
[11:28] <yellabs-r2> can i use the usb to hmdi to get convergence ?
[11:28] <yellabs-r2> on this phone ?
[11:28] <JanC> mcphail: what I mean is that you can't use the lack of success of the N9 to dismiss its OS/UI design
[11:28] <mcphail> yellabs-r2: not on the E5, I think
[11:28] <yellabs-r2> E5 ubuntu edition
[11:29] <k1l_> imho the bq phones cant do that.
[11:29] <yellabs-r2> hmm, can i get usb to hdmi ?
[11:29] <k1l_> the video output is not solded onto the SoC
[11:30] <yellabs-r2> okey, so all i have to do is open it up , solder it and i am on my way to convergence.. ?
[11:30] <mcphail> JanC: no, but you can't deny that MeeGo has been a failure
[11:30] <yellabs-r2> LOL
[11:30] <k1l_> yellabs-r2: well. it sounds quite easy :)
[11:30] <mcphail> yellabs-r2: send pictures!
[11:31] <JanC> mcphail: it mostly failed because of company politics & such
[11:31] <k1l_> mcphail: no. it was only shutdown because it was too successful.
[11:31] <mcphail> JanC: good things _did_ escape from Nokia, though. Qt, for example, didn't die the way MeeGo did
[11:34] <JanC> many good things also died with Nokia  :)
[11:34] <jfc> notes/reminders  - why export notes to enex file (without connecxion to evernote site ?
[11:40] <ogra_> JanC, they arent dead ! they still produce car tires ;)
[11:42] <k1l_> hihi
[11:42] <JanC> ogra_: I mean their mobile division
[11:42] <JanC> :)
[11:42] <ogra_> :)
[11:42] <JanC> they probably make a lot of other things still
[11:44] <JanC> like networking equipment equipment (they just bought Alcatel-Lucent apparently)
[11:45] <jfc> notes/reminders  - why export  .....  or  import ...... notes to enex file (without connecxion to evernote site ?
[11:45] <JanC> and AFAIK they plan to sell mobile phones, tablets & such again too
[11:47] <ogra_> yep, some chinese ones i heard
[11:47] <JanC> maybe Canonical should try to get them to use Ubuntu  ;)
[11:49] <JanC> they still _do_ have a well-known brand after all
[12:14] <popey> mzanetti, Saviq I have interesting good and bad news. Have you tried associating a bluetooth game controller recently? (Specifically an Ouya one, which is a joypad and mouse combined)?
[12:15] <popey> (by mouse I mean it has a touchpad area, so you get a mouse cursor when you associate it)
[12:15] <popey> press _any_ button and it nukes unity/mir
[12:16] <Saviq> popey, .crash file?
[12:16] <popey> nope
[12:16] <Saviq> interesting
[12:17] <Saviq> popey, please clear ~/.cache/upstart/ before nuking and file a bug + attach unity8.log from there
[12:17] <Saviq> popey, and see if syslog says anything about SIGSEGV
[12:17] <popey> qtmir.surfaces: MirSurfaceItem::MirSurfaceItem
[12:17] <popey> QObject: Cannot create children for a parent that is in a different thread.
[12:17] <popey> (Parent is DashCommunicator(0xfe96b0), parent's thread is QThread(0xf1ef90), current thread is DashCommunicator(0xfe96b0)
[12:17] <popey> UbuntuKeyboardInfo - socket error: "QLocalSocket::connectToServer: Connection refused"
[12:17] <popey> Fail to connect with service: QDBusError("org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.Disconnected", "Connection was disconnected before a reply was received")
[12:17] <popey> Oops
[12:17] <popey> thats the lines that appear as soon as I press a button
[12:18] <Saviq> popey, and it exits "cleanly"...? interesting
[12:18] <popey> Will do as you suggest and file a bug
[12:18] <Saviq> popey, also, "sudo gdb -program `pidof unity8`" then "c" inside gdb, then touch
[12:19] <Saviq> s/touch/button/
[12:19] <Saviq> popey, this way we should be able to see if why it exits
[12:19] <popey> Program received signal SIGTERM, Terminated.
[12:19] <popey> 0xb6aa4fa8 in QV4::ExecutionEngine::qmlContextObject() const () from /usr/lib/arm-linux-gnueabihf/libQt5Qml.so.5
[12:40] <greyback> anpok_: ^^ can Mir deal with game controllers at all? Or does it just ignore them?
[12:46] <popey> Saviq, done https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity8/+bug/1542305
[12:46] <ubot5`> Launchpad bug 1542305 in unity8 (Ubuntu) "Pressing button on bluetooth game pad crashes unity" [Undecided,New]
[12:46] <anpok_> greyback: libinput ignores them at the moment
[12:47] <Saviq> popey, so something just tells unity8 to shut down ;P
[12:47] <popey> heh
[12:47] <Saviq> popey, you sure that button's not ctrl+alt+del or something :P
[12:47] <popey> haha
[12:48] <popey> I actually don't know what that button does
[12:48] <popey> probably "A"
[12:49] <mcphail> ogra_: I have Nokian tyres. They're great!
[12:50] <popey> associated gamepad with my desktop and I get nothing in xev, no matter what button I press - but the mouse works
[13:26] <anpok_> greyback: there were a few discussions on that topic on the wayland devel list..
[13:27] <anpok_> iirc the last consensus was 'no'
[13:27] <greyback> anpok_: fair enough. Was just curious in case you knew about mir and gamepads, if it would explain popey's crash above
[13:28] <popey> shame, i wanted to test out some game ideas with a gamepad
[13:28] <anpok_> oh
[13:29] <anpok_> too bad.. for now people are still forced to directly open respective evdev devices..
[13:30] <ogra_> which confinement makes kind of impossible
[13:44] <popey> yup, can't do that at all.
[13:54] <OerHeks> yay, march! http://www.zdnet.com/article/here-comes-the-first-ubuntu-linux-tablet/
[14:36] <dobey> popey: obviously you need to write a gamepad-service that has a trust prompt and proxies all device interaction through an annoying dbus API :)
[14:37] <ogra_> which surely improves latency a lot :P
[14:50] <yellabs-r2> any news on whatsapp , will it come to ubuntu phone ?
[14:50] <yellabs-r2> my wife asks .. ;)
[14:54] <matv1> yellabs-r2 there is a wishlist for ubuntu on https://uappexplorer.com/wishlist
[14:56] <matv1> she could +1 the whatsapp wish
[14:57] <yellabs-r2> lot of apps on the list are actually services of big company's
[15:00] <yellabs-r2> what is the main focus of the coming development of the touch, wich direction is it going ?
[15:01] <pmcgowan> right we need some momentum and volume for them to be sufficiently interested
[15:04] <jdstrand> mcphail: regarding malicoius app question: both
[15:07] <mcphail> jdstrand: thanks. I'd been pondering the dangers of sideloader apps
[15:08] <mcphail> *sideloaded
[15:08] <matv1> yellabs-r2 convergence, and after that outer space :)
[15:09] <yellabs-r2> convergence , the news ( tablet ubuntu now in store )  did say it has convergence > it needs more work i guess ?
[15:10] <matv1> yellabs-r2 yes, but then these things never stop
[15:10] <yellabs-r2> you are right, its for ever beta ...
[15:10] <yellabs-r2> LOL
[15:11] <matv1> yellabs-r2 haha thats not exactly what i meant
[15:11] <matv1> but it´s kinda complicated :D
[15:11] <yellabs-r2> outer space , that never stops ?
[15:11] <yellabs-r2> :P
[15:12] <matv1> also if people would just quit muckin about with their game pads and get a move on we´d be somewhere
[15:13] <yellabs-r2> so about the whats app, is it not just asking nicely over at whatsapp developers to add the ubuntu touch to the https://web.whatsapp.com/
[15:13] <yellabs-r2> and then it works .. ..
[15:14] <matv1> yellabs-r2 I would certainly do that If that´s high on your wishlist
[15:14] <matv1> every person asking counts
[15:16] <yellabs-r2> sorry to aks so much..
[15:16] <yellabs-r2> but whats the backend of the ubuntu phone browser ?
[15:16] <yellabs-r2> webkit .. ?
[15:17] <pmcgowan> yellabs-r2, have you tried the webwhatsapp in the store?
[15:17] <pmcgowan> the backend is chromium content api
[15:17] <garro> Why whatsapp when you can have telegram?
[15:18] <yellabs-r2> ah i see its actually webkit
[15:18] <yellabs-r2> based on ..
[15:18] <yellabs-r2> garoo , why not both , more choice = better ?
[15:18] <yellabs-r2> *garro
[15:19] <matv1> garro +1. its just about better and safer in every way. I have never looked back since I switched
[15:19] <matv1> but it´s a personal choice
[15:19] <matv1> ofcource it would require that any client they bring to the store would be open source
[15:20] <matv1> that might be a problem for them
[15:20] <yellabs-r2> sure there are more important matters then whatsapp
[15:20] <pmcgowan> we dont require apps to be open source
[15:21] <garro> I beg to differ, because Whatsapp now apply censorship
[15:22] <jdstrand> mcphail: you should still be careful of sideloaded apps since they can specify whatever security policy they want
[15:24] <dobey> just don't talk to people. most secure chat ever. :)
[15:25] <garro> that's not a chat
[15:26] <dobey> it's inner chat
[15:26] <garro> LOL
[15:27] <garro> it's good sometimes, but I need also a service that let me chat with other people
[15:28] <garro> without being spyed
[15:28] <garro> nor censored
[15:29] <dobey> well good luck :)
[15:30] <garro> Telegram seems to be a good service
[15:36] <matv1> pmcgowan we may have to be carefull how we phrase things like this then :)
[15:36] <matv1> https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/apps/
[15:37] <pmcgowan> mathe platform is open, doesnt mean apps are :)
[15:37] <pmcgowan> sorry matv1
[15:38] <rpadovani> hello all guys, I'm having issues creating 15.04 chroot on 16.04 host. I have the sdk ppa team and the system is updated. This is the error: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/14887864/
[15:38] <rpadovani> Any hint? :)
[15:38] <matv1> pmcgowan yes, if only, in a perfect world
[15:39] <popey> ooh, rpadovani i had that the other day!
[15:39] <dobey> matv1: "everything is as it should be"
[15:39] <popey> (hello btw)
[15:39] <popey> zbenjamin_, ^^ see that from rpadovani - i had that in docker, thought it was a docker thing, turns out maybe not
[15:39] <popey> rpadovani, anything special about your setup?
[15:40] <matv1> pmcgowan i hope you at least ´urge´them to open-source anything they bring to the store ?
[15:40] <rpadovani> nothing at all, I also tried to purge everything, delete cache and config and reinstall it
[15:42] <dobey> matv1: do you urge every web site you access to open source all their content?
[15:43] <matv1> dobey i´m not sure that´s a legitimate comparison
[15:43] <matv1> in fact i am sure its not :)
[15:43] <dobey> matv1: why not? you don't use an open source browser? :)
[15:44] <dobey> matv1: why should facebook make an open source client app, but not open source the software running on their server and provide open access to their APIs?
[15:45] <matv1> dobey i never said they shouldnt
[15:45] <dobey> matv1: you implied we should advocate for one, but suggest a comparison to advocating for the other, is invalid
[15:46] <matv1> its just not the same thing. I am a user. not a platform
[15:47] <dobey> matv1: besides, ubuntu on the phone is not a fully open stack anyway.
[15:47] <matv1> i know, base firmware and such
[15:47] <dobey> matv1: you imply your opinion is irrelevant because you are a single person? so what relevance is canonical's opinion compared to Google, Apple, and Microsoft?
[15:49] <dobey> sure, if Canonical had Google's resources, meaningful advocations for open source clients, and open source drivers, could be made.
[15:49] <dobey> alas, it is not the case
[15:54] <matv1> dobey in the comparison (fwiw) a platform is something you have to have before you can stick things on top of them. Like apps. in the user-website analogy the user would be more like the app
[15:55] <matv1> a website user needs a website. a website doenst realy need to have a user to be a website
[15:55] <dobey> matv1: no, in that analogy the browser is the platform
[15:55] <matv1> ah different analogy
[15:56] <matv1> this is getting pretty meta
[15:56] <matv1> awsum
[15:56] <dobey> not really
[15:56] <dobey> an app doesn't need a user to be an app
[16:04] <JanC> does anybody know what bq tablet will be released with Ubuntu?
[16:05] <matv1> dobey I am not sure this is getting us anywhere :) anyway Ubuntu being -largely- open source as a platform must mean they care about it. It is not a casual choice. Why not try and convince app makers why we believe that is important?
[16:05] <JanC> Aquaris M10 HD or Aquaris M10 Full HD ?
[16:05] <pmcgowan> matv1, afaik the vast majority of the store apps are open, but I do not have stats
[16:06] <matv1> pmcgowan I know. this is mostly an academical discusion :)
[16:07] <JanC> dobey: even Google hasn't managed to get open source drivers :)
[16:08] <matv1> But I hope that whatsapp when they do come to the store, come with an open source client. And I dont mind telling them that
[16:08] <dobey> JanC: assuming they've been pressuring anyone for it, but Android isn't all open source either
[16:08] <dobey> matv1: tell them :)
[16:09] <matv1> I will. Can I tell them dobey agrees ?
[16:09] <dobey> it would be great if they released an open source client
[16:09] <pmcgowan> JanC, Full HD per http://www.ubuntu.com/tablet/devices
[16:09] <dobey> but i probably still won't use it
[16:09] <JanC> dobey: they said they (= some people inside Google) tried at least, IIRC
[16:10] <matv1> haha me neither
[16:10] <dobey> JanC: i guess they didn't try very hard, given they bought motorola and still don't have open drivers :)
[16:11] <JanC> Motorola doesn't make GPUs
[16:11] <JanC> pmcgowan: that says "Full HD (1080p) camera"
[16:11] <dobey> GPU is only one of many things
[16:12] <JanC> pmcgowan: but 1.5GHz seems to indicate the Full HD version
[16:12] <dobey> but they didn't make a nexus device either
[16:12] <genii> I'm pretty sure Motorola has licensed PowerVR from Imagination Technologies, and builds processors which have this
[16:12] <pmcgowan> JanC, let me check
[16:13] <JanC> I'm pretty sure Motorola uses SoCs from other companies (mostly at least)?
[16:13] <pmcgowan> JanC, I am told Full HD
[16:14] <JanC> pmcgowan: told by Canonical or bq?
[16:14] <pmcgowan> Canonical peson with one in hands
[16:14] <JanC> okay
[16:14] <JanC> I ask because on-line news reports seem to be divided
[16:15] <pmcgowan> yep a bit confusing
[16:15] <JanC> so might be useful to clarify that  :)
[16:20] <mhall119> mariogrip: ping
[16:20] <mariogrip> mhall119: pong
[16:20] <mhall119> mariogrip: hey, were you able to finish rebuilding on 15.04?
[16:20] <mariogrip> mhall119: yeah, no different
[16:20] <mhall119> exactly the same errors?
[16:21] <mariogrip> yes
[16:21] <mhall119> tvoss: ^^ so it looks like this wasn't caused by toolchain mismatch
[16:22] <mhall119> tvoss: abeato: can you guys help mariogrip debug this mir problem?
[16:48] <tvoss> mhall119, it's not a mir problem
[16:49] <mhall119> well, it's a problem preventing Mir from running
[16:52] <tvoss> mhall119, sure, but it's a problem with the android side of things, I will read the code, but there is not much else I can do without a phone
[17:03] <mhall119> tvoss: dpm has one we could get to you if needed, he'll be back on Monday
[17:04] <tvoss> mhall119, my plate is pretty much full tbh
[17:04] <mhall119> hopefully abeato can help then
[17:05] <mhall119> or maybe ondra if it's on the Android side
[17:05] <abeato> mhall119, I share plate with tvoss right now :)
[17:05] <abeato> mhall119, after mwc things should get better
[17:21] <mhall119> abeato: you're not going to have a fairphone to demo at MWC if we don't get help before then
[17:25] <ondra> mhall119 is that fairphone 2?
[17:31] <victorp> mhall119, we are 100% aware of that
[17:33] <victorp> mhall119, the team is working in a priority list and if we can help on the fairphone before we will, but we have other blocking issues that must be resolve first, if those are cleared soon then great if not then we understand that fairphone might not be present at mwc stand
[17:33] <victorp> well, at least not turn on
[17:34] <victorp> abeato, tvoss|dinner^^
[17:34] <mhall119> victorp: ack, as long as everyone is aware
[17:35] <victorp> yes, I think the whole world is aware of it now
[17:35] <ogra_> spread more wisdom !
[17:35] <ogra_> :)
[17:36] <victorp> ogra_, could help :P
[17:36] <ogra_> heh
[17:36] <victorp> ogra_ free?
[17:36]  * victorp hugs ogra_
[17:36] <ogra_> lol, no, MWC seems to also be an interesting snappy target ;)
[17:36]  * ogra_ hugs victorp 
[17:39] <victorp> :0
[18:38] <mcphail> jdstrand: yes. I was thinking it would be good to have an app like Permy, but aimed at click packages _before_ they are sideloaded
[18:39] <jdstrand> mcphail: running the review tools on it would be a great step
[18:39] <jdstrand> apt-get install click-reviewers-tools
[18:39] <jdstrand> click-review /path/to/click
[18:39] <jdstrand> that will tell you if it is doing anything weird with the security policy, etc (that is what the store runs)
[18:39] <mcphail> jdstrand: thanks!
[18:40] <jdstrand> np :)
[18:56] <dobey> well, there's probably a reason it isn't in the store and "doing things weird with security policy" is a primary reason
[18:57] <mcphail> dobey: yep, but there are many reasons an app can't make it to the store, and most reasons are not malicious
[18:58] <dobey> mcphail: well, review-tool won't tell you if it's malicious. you'll have to read the source to figure that out
[19:01] <mcphail> dobey: agreed, but I'm just looking to see if an app asks for something reasonable (such as access to sd card) or unreasonable (such as allowed to run a service which isnt needed)
[19:02] <mcphail> dobey: i wouldn'5 have the knowledge to do a full source code audit
[19:03] <dobey> mcphail: the review tool won't tell you if it's trying to run a service though
[19:04] <mcphail> dobey: aargh. That's what I was hoping for.
[19:05] <mcphail> dobey: by 'service' I mean something which adds an upstart job. Thougt that had to be done via hooks, and hoped the review tool would pick those up
[19:06] <dobey> mcphail: also, even "unconfined" security policy apps are still limited to the app lifecycle policy. you'd have to open up the click and examine things to see if it has a .desktop file that's trying to run an "app" which doesn't havea  UI (which is then somewhat free of lifecycle management)
[19:06] <dobey> mcphail: no, clicks can't install new upstart jobs
[19:07] <mcphail> dobey: ok. Someone had told me non-default store apps could do that
[19:08] <dobey> mcphail: i don't think so, no. being in the store or not doesn't change the basics of what can be included in a .click
[19:09] <mcphail> dobey: I think it was mzanetti who mentioned that apps in the Open Store might be able to do that. I probably got it wrong
[19:10] <mcphail> dobey: That led me to worry that a hook would start the service before the app was opened, and before it could be inspected with Permy
[19:13] <dobey> mcphail: not afaict. there is i think an issue where "apps" (.desktop files) which run the main process which doesn't have a gui that connects to mir and has a window in unity8, will not be paused; and some things were trying to rely on that, but i am not entirely sure if that's still the case
[19:14] <jdstrand> mcphail: there is no way to start a service in click. what you may be thinking of is there is an app (iirc) in the store that allows you to add an exception for an app for application lifecycle
[19:14] <mcphail> dobey: yes, that still works. I abuse that in one of my apps
[19:14] <jdstrand> mcphail: that would allow an app, when launched, to launch a long running process in the background
[19:14] <jdstrand> but there is nothing in click for a background service
[19:15] <dobey> oh right, there's that tweak app that allows you to do that too i guess
[19:15] <jdstrand> I haven't done that myself, but istr people doing stuff like that
[19:16] <mcphail> jdstrand: ok. mzanetti had mentioned something when we were talking about putting syncthing in the Open Store. I didnt really understand how the upstart job would be added. I assumed there was a hook
[19:27] <jdstrand> maybe that is future work. there currently isn't a hook
[19:43] <dobey> i don't think a hook to allow adding upstart jobs is going to be the solution to the background processing problem
[19:43] <dobey> many reasons, not least of which is that we're moving away from upstart
[19:46]  * tvoss gets back to putting finishing touches on feedback to lifecycle bugs
[20:41] <sergiusens> popey, pmcgowan hey, is it a known issue that the notes/evernote integration does not support shared notes?
[20:41] <sergiusens> my lovely wife switched to an ubuntu phone and she can't see my shared notepads
[22:47] <mzanetti> dobey, fwiw, if an app is unconfined it can create an upstart file
[22:47] <mzanetti> also, openstore has a feature to generate an upstart file for packages that have a service hook in the manifest
[23:05] <mcphail> mzanetti: so this wouldn't be automatically available to a sideloaded .click package which didn't have full unconfined permissions? That's good to know
[23:59] <dobey> mzanetti: well, "an unconfined app can create" is different from "a click package can include." an unconfined app can't create the upstart file until after it's been run, so you'd have to examine the code to verify whether it does that or not. as for service hook, how are you doing that? openstore requires installing a .deb that has that hook?