| davidcalle | Morning o/ | 08:35 |
|---|---|---|
| dholbach | good morning | 09:07 |
| davidcalle | dholbach, hey :) | 09:08 |
| dholbach | salut davidcalle | 09:10 |
| davidcalle | dholbach: wie geht's? | 09:11 |
| dholbach | sehr gut, ich brauch aber noch einen neuen kaffee :) | 09:12 |
| davidcalle | dholbach: same :) | 09:16 |
| popey | Morning! | 09:28 |
| * dholbach relocates to the office, brb | 09:34 | |
| dholbach | balloons, davidcalle, dpm, mhall119, popey: for the Q&A tomorrow, do you think we can get somebody who can answer a few questions about the tablet? | 10:23 |
| dholbach | _sponge just pinged me in #u-on-air about it | 10:23 |
| dpm | dholbach, let me ask pat when he's online later on today | 10:30 |
| dholbach | awesome :) | 10:34 |
| popey | dholbach: please don't approve file manager yet | 12:43 |
| popey | dholbach: (in the store) - I don't actually know how to undo the manual review request | 12:44 |
| davidcalle | Meh https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges | 12:46 |
| popey | call them, tell them how awesome they are ㋛ | 12:49 |
| davidcalle | popey: can you remind me your credit card number? They need one and you suggested this fantastic idea :) | 12:54 |
| popey | \o/ | 12:54 |
| davidcalle | "Not a valid card number" | 12:55 |
| popey | dholbach: nvm, I rejected it | 12:55 |
| popey | Time to migrate to MediaWiki ㋛ | 12:56 |
| dholbach | popey: I was out for lunch with doko and larsu :) | 13:14 |
| popey | \o/ | 13:14 |
| popey | dholbach: calendar and terminal could do with an eye though ㋛ 😃 | 13:15 |
| dholbach | sure | 13:17 |
| popey | thank you! 😃 | 13:20 |
| dholbach | done | 13:21 |
| popey | \o/ | 13:21 |
| * davidcalle afk for 30min | 13:31 | |
| dholbach | dpm: did you try unity8 on your desktop again? | 13:53 |
| dholbach | I just got a black screen and couldn't do anything but use magic sysrq do get out of it again | 13:54 |
| dholbach | ...to get out of it again | 13:54 |
| dpm | dholbach, it works fore me, but it does not load apps - let me find the bug... | 13:57 |
| dpm | dholbach, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity8/+bug/1535058 - I didn't have any more time last week to debug it more | 13:58 |
| dholbach | dpm: maybe we should start tagging the bugs a certain way? | 14:02 |
| dpm | dholbach, perhaps - that one would certainly be a blocker | 14:03 |
| dholbach | dpm: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity8/+bugs?field.tag=unity8-desktop | 14:10 |
| dholbach | I filed bug 1543133 | 14:10 |
| dholbach | brb | 14:13 |
| balloons | the GCI winners will be revealed in 30 mins :-) | 15:30 |
| * mhall119 fingers crossed | 15:31 | |
| balloons | dpm, hangouts working for you? | 16:00 |
| dpm | balloons, so far, they do | 16:01 |
| pleia2 | fyi, wiki.ubuntu.com is locked down, with the usual no communication with IS | 17:46 |
| pleia2 | when asked in channel they told us, but that's after my morning of working on UWN was ruined | 17:47 |
| dpm | pleia2, who did you talk to from IS? | 18:20 |
| pleia2 | jose followed up #canonical-sysadmin | 18:21 |
| jose | neale | 18:21 |
| pleia2 | they're working on it, but communication would have been nice, UWN release is now blocked | 18:21 |
| pleia2 | and they didn't update the /topic in channel until jose asked | 18:23 |
| pleia2 | actually updating the topic in a timely manner and having it available somewhere easier to find (not just channel topic) would be lovely | 18:23 |
| pleia2 | I don't fault individual IS engineers, they are awesome and work hard <3 just frustrated yet again about priorities and communication with the community | 18:25 |
| pleia2 | it's deeply discouraging | 18:25 |
| wxl | i can echo that frustration | 18:26 |
| wxl | my concern is that perhaps canonical is spreading its resources too thin | 18:26 |
| wxl | and if that's the case, i'd rather just have them honestly say they can't do something rather than try to do it and have it not done well, or in a timely manner | 18:26 |
| * pleia2 nods | 18:27 | |
| popey | Canonical IS has never not been spread thin. If they closed the gates and worked on every single RT that's been filed, I doubt they'd be done by the heat death of the universe. | 18:44 |
| popey | </speculation> 😃 | 18:45 |
| pleia2 | I am a volunteer and a busy person, when I keep getting blocked by their inability to support me in my community work, I creep closer and closer to quitting and finding a project that will support me | 18:45 |
| pleia2 | (there are plenty out there) | 18:46 |
| popey | We can certainly help to improve comms. | 18:47 |
| wxl | yeah i think that's more of the issue | 18:47 |
| wxl | i think defining reasonable expectations for timing would be wise | 18:47 |
| * pleia2 nods | 18:47 | |
| wxl | we should be able to define average response time on rt tickets very easily | 18:48 |
| popey | Well, some places have a twitter account or status page somewhere with updates. | 18:48 |
| pleia2 | it's been 3 weeks since I requested something be done about the help.ubuntu.com/community wiki that's been locked down since the holidays, no response | 18:48 |
| pleia2 | so the ubuntu-doc list is all "can someone with edit powers please fix..." | 18:48 |
| pleia2 | which adds even more work for me, that I don't have time for | 18:48 |
| pleia2 | anyway, just grumping now, haven't gotten enough sleep ;) | 18:49 |
| wxl | popey: i think a status page would be nice, but i think even more important is defining reasonable expectations. most places have a timeline they expect to get tickets resolved | 18:50 |
| wxl | i mean, if we're going to judge what we should do based on industry standards XD | 18:50 |
| knome | one thing that could take a lot of load off the canonical IS team is if they set up a server for purely community maintained stuff, and let community members have even *some* access to it | 19:44 |
| wxl | +12,000,005 knome | 19:45 |
| hggdh | heh | 19:45 |
| knome | but of course i understand they want to keep everything very much in their control... but from my POV, that means they have to maintain it too, then | 19:45 |
| wxl | i agree | 19:45 |
| knome | or else community teams will just go elsewhere | 19:45 |
| wxl | i could see council members having access | 19:46 |
| knome | i think that's a bad idea, because they don't seem to be any less busy than the canonical IS | 19:46 |
| hggdh | but this would not be a solution | 19:46 |
| knome | let's not bottleneck the work to a few people | 19:46 |
| hggdh | indeed | 19:46 |
| knome | the problem i see is that even relatively trivial tickets seem to take a lot of time to complete | 19:47 |
| wxl | yeah that's true | 19:47 |
| knome | this means "everybody in the community" using IS servers think they are crap and avoid centralizing stuff in the future | 19:47 |
| hggdh | when you are many tickets, it is difficult to select one | 19:47 |
| hggdh | and when everything is a priority, nothing is really important | 19:47 |
| knome | i also know from experience that tickets related to the xubuntu website are cleared lately VERY fast | 19:47 |
| hggdh | you can see a similar thing on lp/bugs | 19:48 |
| wxl | knome: i think that's because of a certain young lady :) | 19:48 |
| knome | that's partly because i've made sure i commit often enough that they remember me, the diff's aren't huge and that i always provide sensible requests with everything set up and clearly explained | 19:48 |
| knome | wxl, nope. | 19:48 |
| knome | so while everybody points fingers at the IS, sometimes things might be easier if the requests were clearly specified | 19:48 |
| wxl | well that much is true for sure | 19:49 |
| wxl | i've been trying to dig through the loco queue and plenty of the tickets are just not very clear | 19:49 |
| knome | contact persons for community might work too, but i'm not sure if that fixes the issue; it might just move the blame from IS to the community person | 19:49 |
| hggdh | the best option would be selective access. But this might (I do not know) require heavy changes | 19:49 |
| knome | i have a pad somewhere where i list a few dozen issues that are actually invalid/obsolete by now, but they have an open status | 19:49 |
| knome | MAYBE clearing them out would help a bit. | 19:50 |
| knome | (this isn't passed on to the IS yet though, so not complaining that they aren't doing this) | 19:50 |
| wxl | knome: bugs or rt? | 19:50 |
| knome | rt. | 19:50 |
| hggdh | and I am going thru the LoCo queue at RT, closing things that really do not make sense anymore | 19:50 |
| wxl | yeha i'd pass that on | 19:50 |
| wxl | i mentioned a few things to them and they took care of them right away | 19:50 |
| knome | then i should know where that is | 19:50 |
| wxl | i mean if you hit up the vanguard and tell them they can easily reduce their potential workload, they act fast XD | 19:51 |
| knome | anyway, i don't think there is a good reason to hold off things like "set up wordpress for us" forever | 19:51 |
| wxl | yeah our loco faced that, too | 19:51 |
| knome | because it is (or at least should be) a simple operation to add one more site to their farm | 19:52 |
| wxl | yeah it's just a juju charm they use anyways | 19:52 |
| knome | well i wouldn't know - and i don't want to know :) | 19:52 |
| wxl | hehehe | 19:53 |
| knome | and about realistic expectations, there should be some documentation as to what kind of services canonical IS usually provides and doesn't provide | 19:54 |
| knome | eg. say at the very beginning that no file access will be granted for loco teams | 19:54 |
| hggdh | THAT would be very good | 19:54 |
| wxl | agree | 19:54 |
| knome | and that bzr branches are the recommended way to handle updates (then you can just request revision X to be pushed to production) | 19:55 |
| hggdh | one of the problems is we do not know what what we can really request | 19:55 |
| knome | i have a vague idea. | 19:55 |
| hggdh | so we end up requesting what is doable and what is absurd | 19:55 |
| knome | clearly. | 19:55 |
| knome | but even in that case, they should simply just reply that something isn't realistic, if it isn't | 19:56 |
| knome | and not let the tickets rot | 19:56 |
| wxl | knome: yet how do we get the production configuration and such put in a bzr branch? can we request that? | 19:56 |
| knome | production configuration? what are you referring to? | 19:56 |
| hggdh | knome: tickets tend to rot (everywhenre) because you got new tickets to work on | 19:56 |
| wxl | you were referring to using bzr branches to handle updates | 19:56 |
| knome | hggdh, "oh, everybody else neglects their clients, we just do the same" | 19:57 |
| knome | hggdh, my point is that tickets that don't even have a reply rot | 19:57 |
| knome | hggdh, even if they were silly, like "grant me ssh access to everything" | 19:57 |
| hggdh | no, this is not it. But -- since I did work on tehnical support, I know how it goes | 19:57 |
| knome | so instead of letting it rot, PLEASE reply to the ticket saying this is unrealistic and not going to happen | 19:57 |
| knome | *any* communication is better than *no* communication | 19:58 |
| knome | well, if it is like you say, maybe the canonical IS should just say they won't support community stuff because they don't have the resources | 19:58 |
| hggdh | I *always required my folks to have a reply. And we had meetings every so often when bug rot was revisited | 19:58 |
| knome | that would be fair too. | 19:58 |
| knome | wxl, yes, for example, if you run a wordpress site, push your theme to a branch so they have easy access to it and diffs | 19:59 |
| knome | wxl, no specific set up documentation is needed | 19:59 |
| knome | wxl, tbh, i don't think they would mind if you used git either. | 19:59 |
| knome | one thing that i HOPE helps a bit with this maintaining is the ubuntu community teams wordpress theme: https://github.com/knomepasi/ubuntu-community-wordpress-theme/ | 20:00 |
| hggdh | I see. You propose a diff, somebody "in charge" approves, and the diff is committed to the repository *and* prod | 20:00 |
| knome | with this theme, canonical would only need to maintain ONE theme for most of the community teams | 20:00 |
| wxl | knome: i tried to use your theme on our site and they couldn't get it to work for whatever resaon | 20:00 |
| knome | hggdh, the diff should be committed to the repository by the requestor | 20:00 |
| knome | wxl, "it doesn't work" isn't helpful | 20:00 |
| knome | wxl, and who is "they"? | 20:00 |
| hggdh | knome: I would rather have the approval be the trigger | 20:00 |
| wxl | knome: you can inquire with neale about the specifics | 20:00 |
| wxl | they is IS | 20:01 |
| knome | wxl, sigh | 20:01 |
| knome | wxl, so i asked you to not send the theme to IS yet, and the first thing you do is that? | 20:01 |
| wxl | apparently because of load balancing and such the wordpress instance consists of several machines | 20:01 |
| * knome facepalms so hard it hurts the face and hand | 20:01 | |
| wxl | which i guess is problematic | 20:01 |
| wxl | knome: i don't remember being asked that | 20:01 |
| hggdh | wxl: "they is IS" failed a series of parsers here until I got your meaming ;-) | 20:01 |
| wxl | hehehe | 20:02 |
| knome | wxl, that was clearly mentioned in the mail i sent to the list, which i pointed you to. | 20:02 |
| knome | but thanks for the cooperation. | 20:02 |
| knome | let's hope people do not start switching to the WIP theme now. | 20:02 |
| knome | and please, point people to me if something on the theme isn't working | 20:02 |
| wxl | oic heheheh didn't see the p.s. | 20:02 |
| knome | it's enough work to work on it, let alone ask everybody that might be testing it if they are ok with it | 20:03 |
| wxl | knome: well when you DO have it available thorugh IS, i'd be happy to test it | 20:04 |
| knome | i need testing BEFORE that | 20:05 |
| knome | as we have JUST discussed, getting updates in via IS is slow | 20:05 |
| knome | so i don't want to be sitting here waiting them to land the updates so you can test | 20:05 |
| * knome facepalms again | 20:05 | |
| knome | i told you that too when we talked the last time | 20:05 |
| knome | PAY ATTENTION! | 20:05 |
| knome | sorry for the outburst, but you clearly haven't read a thing i told you | 20:06 |
| hggdh | knome: if I understand you correctly, you would like to *also* have a test environment where changes could be verified. If this is correct, I am with you | 20:06 |
| knome | for starters, i would like people who are interested in using the theme take the time and install wordpress and use the theme with it. | 20:07 |
| knome | on their local, or testing servers | 20:07 |
| knome | everything on IS is more or less production, so that's not a good idea. | 20:07 |
| wxl | knome: i didn't read your "PLEASE NOTE" from your mailing list message because it was an after thought to your whole email. i saw your salutation and ended reading. next time you consider something so important, include it in the body of your email. | 20:07 |
| * knome shrugs | 20:07 | |
| knome | it was only in caps... | 20:07 |
| hggdh | easy, folks | 20:07 |
| knome | hggdh, come on, are we avoiding confrontation? | 20:08 |
| hggdh | heh | 20:08 |
| knome | funny? | 20:08 |
| hggdh | I rarely see a need for confrontation :-) | 20:08 |
| knome | seems like the bacon legacy lives on | 20:08 |
| knome | AWESOME! | 20:09 |
| hggdh | ok | 20:09 |
| knome | the IS is doing AWESOME work guys | 20:09 |
| knome | yeah. | 20:09 |
| knome | wxl, so apparently you missed the part where it said " If you intend to use the theme, PLEASE READ | 20:10 |
| knome | THE NOTE at the end of this email. " | 20:10 |
| knome | too | 20:10 |
| knome | i'm not trying to ashame you. | 20:10 |
| wxl | knome: i'm not arguing with you anymore. i didn't get the message. so sorry. move on. | 20:10 |
| knome | apology accepted, but please take care in reading mail in the future | 20:11 |
| knome | PLEASE | 20:11 |
| knome | anyway, several people from the community has set up the theme and they had no problems with it | 20:12 |
| knome | the set up, that is | 20:12 |
| wxl | i saw an email where pleia2 outlined some problems she had, which she filed bugs for | 20:12 |
| pleia2 | all addressed already by knome \o/ | 20:12 |
| knome | i'm aware of them; two of them are related to wordpress configuration and one is a feature request | 20:12 |
| knome | other than her mail on the list, i've basically got "feedback" like "can i see the screenshot", which isn't really useful | 20:13 |
| wxl | knome: how many people do you need to test this and tell you all is well until you feel comfortable enough to move forward? | 20:13 |
| knome | especially as the screenshot is "hidden" in the repository with the name "screenshot.png" | 20:13 |
| knome | wxl, there isn't an answer to that question | 20:14 |
| knome | wxl, i would like to get some serious feedback from a few more persons | 20:14 |
| knome | if that helps... | 20:14 |
| wxl | knome: if there's no problems, what serious feedback do you expect? | 20:14 |
| knome | i said no problems setting the theme up | 20:15 |
| wxl | setting up = installing? | 20:15 |
| knome | besides, serious feedback doesn't mean you need to send a bug report. | 20:15 |
| knome | yes. | 20:15 |
| knome | i was referring to that since you said IS had problems setting it up. | 20:15 |
| wxl | yeah i get you want people to test it with actual posts and tweaking the theme, etc | 20:16 |
| knome | it can be without real posts too, as long as their intention is to configure the theme to be something that they'd actually use | 20:16 |
| wxl | and i said that's related to the way they have their machines setup, from what i understand | 20:16 |
| knome | or if they have old content, make sure they can present the same content with the new theme (not necessarily exactly the way as before) | 20:17 |
| knome | and i don't believe they can't set it up | 20:17 |
| * wxl shrugs | 20:17 | |
| wxl | that's up to you to figure out it sounds like | 20:17 |
| knome | what i told you in the mail was that i would take care of making this available in the IS farm | 20:18 |
| wxl | meanwhile we'll see what we can do to get you some more tests beyond just installing | 20:18 |
| knome | now i'm not in the loop of you communicating with them | 20:18 |
| knome | so i can't be very useful | 20:18 |
| wxl | knome: right, so all that's mostly irrelevant. a waste of time on everyone's part. like i said, my mistake. i do hope we can move beyond that at some point | 20:18 |
| knome | part of the reason why i told i would do the communicating is because i knew it can sometimes be hard or slow | 20:19 |
| knome | i'm still not blaming you | 20:19 |
| knome | so yes, as i originally asked... | 20:20 |
| knome | please test the theme on a test/local server | 20:20 |
| knome | then give me feedback | 20:20 |
| knome | so i can make sure the theme works for you (and everybody else) | 20:20 |
| knome | then when it's ready for production, i will make it available for you | 20:21 |
| popey | ooh | 20:27 |
| * popey sees a theme he may be interested in using | 20:28 | |
| popey | We've been looking for a new theme for ubuntupodcast.org | 20:28 |
| knome | popey, you would be welcome, and as a bonus, if you test it now, before it's in production, i might even fulfill (some of) your feature requests if you need any | 20:29 |
| knome | popey, you can totally change the header color with the theme too! | 20:29 |
| popey | knome: thank you for making that, and making it available. | 20:32 |
| knome | popey, no problem, i hope it will bring joy for many | 20:32 |
| wxl | knome: don't normally have the joy of taking care of wordpress installs. must i restart apache2 to get it to recognize the wp-content/themes/ubuntu-community theme? i've already chown'd it recursively to www-data. | 21:25 |
| wxl | knome: well, just restarted to no avail. shall i install the zip file instead of manually installing as the README suggests? | 21:31 |
| popey | mhall119: saw this and thought of you https://www.reddit.com/r/britishproblems/comments/44rgre/as_a_coder_every_time_i_have_to_write_the_word/ | 21:41 |
| popey | knome: we're testing it out - http://ubuntupodcast.org/ | 21:42 |
| popey | knome: needs a bit of fiddling, which Martin is doing. Burying every link at the bottom of the page doesn't work for our use case. | 21:42 |
| popey | but will provide you some feedback :) | 21:42 |
| popey | thank you | 21:42 |
| pleia2 | popey: yeah, similar to the issues I filed on github when I tried it | 21:44 |
| pleia2 | (also, glad to see someone else testing it, yay!) | 21:44 |
| mhall119 | popey: forget u, who needs u? | 22:43 |
| popey | wat | 22:43 |
| popey | oh, i see | 22:43 |
| knome | wxl, no apache2 restart needed, it should be picked up automatically | 23:27 |
| knome | wxl, if you are running multisite, you will need to network enable the theme first | 23:28 |
| knome | popey, yeah, i will add a sidebar sooner or later :) | 23:28 |
| popey | knome: okay 😃 | 23:29 |
| knome | popey, what are your other inital reactions? | 23:29 |
| knome | oh, you said will provide feedback | 23:29 |
| * knome gets on with things he was doing | 23:30 | |
| popey | knome: the links on the bottom is a bit of a blocker | 23:30 |
| popey | we flipped back to our other theme for now | 23:30 |
| popey | will test more later. | 23:30 |
| knome | popey, what links? | 23:30 |
| knome | is it something that isn't fixable with a sidebar? :) | 23:31 |
| popey | well, it's the lack of sidebar, yeah | 23:31 |
| knome | yeah, well, that'll come | 23:31 |
| knome | maybe after this fifa match :P | 23:31 |
| popey | heh | 23:32 |
| wxl | knome: well, i got it to behave once i put it in the RIGHT wp-content/themes directory XD but there's something funky still. i'm going to try a different browser. | 23:54 |
| knome | okay | 23:55 |
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