davidcalleMorning o/08:35
dholbachgood morning09:07
davidcalledholbach, hey :)09:08
dholbachsalut davidcalle09:10
davidcalledholbach: wie geht's?09:11
dholbachsehr gut, ich brauch aber noch einen neuen kaffee :)09:12
davidcalledholbach: same :)09:16
* dholbach relocates to the office, brb09:34
dholbachballoons, davidcalle, dpm, mhall119, popey: for the Q&A tomorrow, do you think we can get somebody who can answer a few questions about the tablet?10:23
dholbach_sponge just pinged me in #u-on-air about it10:23
dpmdholbach, let me ask pat when he's online later on today10:30
dholbachawesome :)10:34
popeydholbach: please don't approve file manager yet12:43
popeydholbach: (in the store) - I don't actually know how to undo the manual review request12:44
davidcalleMeh https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges12:46
popeycall them, tell them how awesome they are ㋛12:49
davidcallepopey: can you remind me your credit card number? They need one and you suggested this fantastic idea :)12:54
davidcalle"Not a valid card number"12:55
popeydholbach: nvm, I rejected it12:55
popeyTime to migrate to MediaWiki ㋛12:56
dholbachpopey: I was out for lunch with doko and larsu :)13:14
popeydholbach: calendar and terminal could do with an eye though ㋛  😃13:15
popeythank you!  😃13:20
* davidcalle afk for 30min13:31
dholbachdpm: did you try unity8 on your desktop again?13:53
dholbachI just got a black screen and couldn't do anything but use magic sysrq do get out of it again13:54
dholbach...to get out of it again13:54
dpmdholbach, it works fore me, but it does not load apps - let me find the bug...13:57
dpmdholbach, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity8/+bug/1535058 - I didn't have any more time last week to debug it more13:58
dholbachdpm: maybe we should start tagging the bugs a certain way?14:02
dpmdholbach, perhaps - that one would certainly be a blocker14:03
dholbachdpm: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity8/+bugs?field.tag=unity8-desktop14:10
dholbachI filed bug 154313314:10
balloonsthe GCI winners will be revealed in 30 mins :-)15:30
* mhall119 fingers crossed15:31
balloonsdpm, hangouts working for you?16:00
dpmballoons, so far, they do16:01
pleia2fyi, wiki.ubuntu.com is locked down, with the usual no communication with IS17:46
pleia2when asked in channel they told us, but that's after my morning of working on UWN was ruined17:47
dpmpleia2, who did you talk to from IS?18:20
pleia2jose followed up #canonical-sysadmin18:21
pleia2they're working on it, but communication would have been nice, UWN release is now blocked18:21
pleia2and they didn't update the /topic in channel until jose asked18:23
pleia2actually updating the topic in a timely manner and having it available somewhere easier to find (not just channel topic) would be lovely18:23
pleia2I don't fault individual IS engineers, they are awesome and work hard <3 just frustrated yet again about priorities and communication with the community18:25
pleia2it's deeply discouraging18:25
wxli can echo that frustration18:26
wxlmy concern is that perhaps canonical is spreading its resources too thin18:26
wxland if that's the case, i'd rather just have them honestly say they can't do something rather than try to do it and have it not done well, or in a timely manner18:26
* pleia2 nods18:27
popeyCanonical IS has never not been spread thin. If they closed the gates and worked on every single RT that's been filed, I doubt they'd be done by the heat death of the universe.18:44
popey</speculation>  😃18:45
pleia2I am a volunteer and a busy person, when I keep getting blocked by their inability to support me in my community work, I creep closer and closer to quitting and finding a project that will support me18:45
pleia2(there are plenty out there)18:46
popeyWe can certainly help to improve comms.18:47
wxlyeah i think that's more of the issue18:47
wxli think defining reasonable expectations for timing would be wise18:47
* pleia2 nods18:47
wxlwe should be able to define average response time on rt tickets very easily18:48
popeyWell, some places have a twitter account or status page somewhere with updates.18:48
pleia2it's been 3 weeks since I requested something be done about the help.ubuntu.com/community wiki that's been locked down since the holidays, no response18:48
pleia2so the ubuntu-doc list is all "can someone with edit powers please fix..."18:48
pleia2which adds even more work for me, that I don't have time for18:48
pleia2anyway, just grumping now, haven't gotten enough sleep ;)18:49
wxlpopey: i think a status page would be nice, but i think even more important is defining reasonable expectations. most places have a timeline they expect to get tickets resolved18:50
wxli mean, if we're going to judge what we should do based on industry standards XD18:50
knomeone thing that could take a lot of load off the canonical IS team is if they set up a server for purely community maintained stuff, and let community members have even *some* access to it19:44
wxl+12,000,005 knome19:45
knomebut of course i understand they want to keep everything very much in their control... but from my POV, that means they have to maintain it too, then19:45
wxli agree19:45
knomeor else community teams will just go elsewhere19:45
wxli could see council members having access19:46
knomei think that's a bad idea, because they don't seem to be any less busy than the canonical IS19:46
hggdhbut this would not be a solution19:46
knomelet's not bottleneck the work to a few people19:46
knomethe problem i see is that even relatively trivial tickets seem to take a lot of time to complete19:47
wxlyeah that's true19:47
knomethis means "everybody in the community" using IS servers think they are crap and avoid centralizing stuff in the future19:47
hggdhwhen you are many tickets, it is difficult to select one19:47
hggdhand when everything is a priority, nothing is really important19:47
knomei also know from experience that tickets related to the xubuntu website are cleared lately VERY fast19:47
hggdhyou can see a similar thing on lp/bugs19:48
wxlknome: i think that's because of a certain young lady :)19:48
knomethat's partly because i've made sure i commit often enough that they remember me, the diff's aren't huge and that i always provide sensible requests with everything set up and clearly explained19:48
knomewxl, nope.19:48
knomeso while everybody points fingers at the IS, sometimes things might be easier if the requests were clearly specified19:48
wxlwell that much is true for sure19:49
wxli've been trying to dig through the loco queue and plenty of the tickets are just not very clear19:49
knomecontact persons for community might work too, but i'm not sure if that fixes the issue; it might just move the blame from IS to the community person19:49
hggdhthe best option would be selective access. But this might (I do not know) require heavy changes19:49
knomei have a pad somewhere where i list a few dozen issues that are actually invalid/obsolete by now, but they have an open status19:49
knomeMAYBE clearing them out would help a bit.19:50
knome(this isn't passed on to the IS yet though, so not complaining that they aren't doing this)19:50
wxlknome: bugs or rt?19:50
hggdhand I am going thru the LoCo queue at RT, closing things that really do not make sense anymore19:50
wxlyeha i'd pass that on19:50
wxli mentioned a few things to them and they took care of them right away19:50
knomethen i should know where that is19:50
wxli mean if you hit up the vanguard and tell them they can easily reduce their potential workload, they act fast XD19:51
knomeanyway, i don't think there is a good reason to hold off things like "set up wordpress for us" forever19:51
wxlyeah our loco faced that, too19:51
knomebecause it is (or at least should be) a simple operation to add one more site to their farm19:52
wxlyeah it's just a juju charm they use anyways19:52
knomewell i wouldn't know - and i don't want to know :)19:52
knomeand about realistic expectations, there should be some documentation as to what kind of services canonical IS usually provides and doesn't provide19:54
knomeeg. say at the very beginning that no file access will be granted for loco teams19:54
hggdhTHAT would be very good19:54
knomeand that bzr branches are the recommended way to handle updates (then you can just request revision X to be pushed to production)19:55
hggdhone of the problems is we do not know what what we can really request19:55
knomei have a vague idea.19:55
hggdhso we end up requesting what is doable and what is absurd19:55
knomebut even in that case, they should simply just reply that something isn't realistic, if it isn't19:56
knomeand not let the tickets rot19:56
wxlknome: yet how do we get the production configuration and such put in a bzr branch? can we request that?19:56
knomeproduction configuration? what are you referring to?19:56
hggdhknome: tickets tend to rot (everywhenre) because you got new tickets to work on19:56
wxlyou were referring to using bzr branches to handle updates19:56
knomehggdh, "oh, everybody else neglects their clients, we just do the same"19:57
knomehggdh, my point is that tickets that don't even have a reply rot19:57
knomehggdh, even if they were silly, like "grant me ssh access to everything"19:57
hggdhno, this is not it. But -- since I did work on tehnical support, I know how it goes19:57
knomeso instead of letting it rot, PLEASE reply to the ticket saying this is unrealistic and not going to happen19:57
knome*any* communication is better than *no* communication19:58
knomewell, if it is like you say, maybe the canonical IS should just say they won't support community stuff because they don't have the resources19:58
hggdhI *always required my folks to have a reply. And we had meetings every so often when bug rot was revisited19:58
knomethat would be fair too.19:58
knomewxl, yes, for example, if you run a wordpress site, push your theme to a branch so they have easy access to it and diffs19:59
knomewxl, no specific set up documentation is needed19:59
knomewxl, tbh, i don't think they would mind if you used git either.19:59
knomeone thing that i HOPE helps a bit with this maintaining is the ubuntu community teams wordpress theme: https://github.com/knomepasi/ubuntu-community-wordpress-theme/20:00
hggdhI see. You propose a diff, somebody "in charge" approves, and the diff is committed to the repository *and* prod20:00
knomewith this theme, canonical would only need to maintain ONE theme for most of the community teams20:00
wxlknome: i tried to use your theme on our site and they couldn't get it to work for whatever resaon20:00
knomehggdh, the diff should be committed to the repository by the requestor20:00
knomewxl, "it doesn't work" isn't helpful20:00
knomewxl, and who is "they"?20:00
hggdhknome: I would rather have the approval be the trigger20:00
wxlknome: you can inquire with neale about the specifics20:00
wxlthey is IS20:01
knomewxl, sigh20:01
knomewxl, so i asked you to not send the theme to IS yet, and the first thing you do is that?20:01
wxlapparently because of load balancing and such the wordpress instance consists of several machines20:01
* knome facepalms so hard it hurts the face and hand20:01
wxlwhich i guess is problematic20:01
wxlknome: i don't remember being asked that20:01
hggdhwxl: "they is IS" failed a series of parsers here until I got your meaming ;-)20:01
knomewxl, that was clearly mentioned in the mail i sent to the list, which i pointed you to.20:02
knomebut thanks for the cooperation.20:02
knomelet's hope people do not start switching to the WIP theme now.20:02
knomeand please, point people to me if something on the theme isn't working20:02
wxloic heheheh didn't see the p.s.20:02
knomeit's enough work to work on it, let alone ask everybody that might be testing it if they are ok with it20:03
wxlknome: well when you DO have it available thorugh IS, i'd be happy to test it20:04
knomei need testing BEFORE that20:05
knomeas we have JUST discussed, getting updates in via IS is slow20:05
knomeso i don't want to be sitting here waiting them to land the updates so you can test20:05
* knome facepalms again20:05
knomei told you that too when we talked the last time20:05
knomePAY ATTENTION!20:05
knomesorry for the outburst, but you clearly haven't read a thing i told you20:06
hggdhknome: if I understand you correctly, you would like to *also* have a test environment where changes could be verified. If this is correct, I am with you20:06
knomefor starters, i would like people who are interested in using the theme take the time and install wordpress and use the theme with it.20:07
knomeon their local, or testing servers20:07
knomeeverything on IS is more or less production, so that's not a good idea.20:07
wxlknome: i didn't read your "PLEASE NOTE" from your mailing list message because it was an after thought to your whole email. i saw your salutation and ended reading. next time you consider something so important, include it in the body of your email.20:07
* knome shrugs20:07
knomeit was only in caps...20:07
hggdheasy, folks20:07
knomehggdh, come on, are we avoiding confrontation?20:08
hggdhI rarely see a need for confrontation :-)20:08
knomeseems like the bacon legacy lives on20:08
knomethe IS is doing AWESOME work guys20:09
knomewxl, so apparently you missed the part where it said " If you intend to use the theme, PLEASE READ20:10
knomeTHE NOTE at the end of this email. "20:10
knomei'm not trying to ashame you.20:10
wxlknome: i'm not arguing with you anymore. i didn't get the message. so sorry. move on.20:10
knomeapology accepted, but please take care in reading mail in the future20:11
knomeanyway, several people from the community has set up the theme and they had no problems with it20:12
knomethe set up, that is20:12
wxli saw an email where pleia2 outlined some problems she had, which she filed bugs for20:12
pleia2all addressed already by knome \o/20:12
knomei'm aware of them; two of them are related to wordpress configuration and one is a feature request20:12
knomeother than her mail on the list, i've basically got "feedback" like "can i see the screenshot", which isn't really useful20:13
wxlknome: how many people do you need to test this and tell you all is well until you feel comfortable enough to move forward?20:13
knomeespecially as the screenshot is "hidden" in the repository with the name "screenshot.png"20:13
knomewxl, there isn't an answer to that question20:14
knomewxl, i would like to get some serious feedback from a few more persons20:14
knomeif that helps...20:14
wxlknome: if there's no problems, what serious feedback do you expect?20:14
knomei said no problems setting the theme up20:15
wxlsetting up = installing?20:15
knomebesides, serious feedback doesn't mean you need to send a bug report.20:15
knomei was referring to that since you said IS had problems setting it up.20:15
wxlyeah i get you want people to test it with actual posts and tweaking the theme, etc20:16
knomeit can be without real posts too, as long as their intention is to configure the theme to be something that they'd actually use20:16
wxland i said that's related to the way they have their machines setup, from what i understand20:16
knomeor if they have old content, make sure they can present the same content with the new theme (not necessarily exactly the way as before)20:17
knomeand i don't believe they can't set it up20:17
* wxl shrugs20:17
wxlthat's up to you to figure out it sounds like20:17
knomewhat i told you in the mail was that i would take care of making this available in the IS farm20:18
wxlmeanwhile we'll see what we can do to get you some more tests beyond just installing20:18
knomenow i'm not in the loop of you communicating with them20:18
knomeso i can't be very useful20:18
wxlknome: right, so all that's mostly irrelevant. a waste of time on everyone's part. like i said, my mistake. i do hope we can move beyond that at some point20:18
knomepart of the reason why i told i would do the communicating is because i knew it can sometimes be hard or slow20:19
knomei'm still not blaming you20:19
knomeso yes, as i originally asked...20:20
knomeplease test the theme on a test/local server20:20
knomethen give me feedback20:20
knomeso i can make sure the theme works for you (and everybody else)20:20
knomethen when it's ready for production, i will make it available for you20:21
* popey sees a theme he may be interested in using20:28
popeyWe've been looking for a new theme for ubuntupodcast.org20:28
knomepopey, you would be welcome, and as a bonus, if you test it now, before it's in production, i might even fulfill (some of) your feature requests if you need any20:29
knomepopey, you can totally change the header color with the theme too!20:29
popeyknome: thank you for making that, and making it available.20:32
knomepopey, no problem, i hope it will bring joy for many20:32
wxlknome: don't normally have the joy of taking care of wordpress installs. must i restart apache2 to get it to recognize the wp-content/themes/ubuntu-community theme? i've already chown'd it recursively to www-data.21:25
wxlknome: well, just restarted to no avail. shall i install the zip file instead of manually installing as the README suggests?21:31
popeymhall119: saw this and thought of you https://www.reddit.com/r/britishproblems/comments/44rgre/as_a_coder_every_time_i_have_to_write_the_word/21:41
popeyknome: we're testing it out - http://ubuntupodcast.org/21:42
popeyknome: needs a bit of fiddling, which Martin is doing. Burying every link at the bottom of the page doesn't work for our use case.21:42
popeybut will provide you some feedback :)21:42
popeythank you21:42
pleia2popey: yeah, similar to the issues I filed on github when I tried it21:44
pleia2(also, glad to see someone else testing it, yay!)21:44
mhall119popey: forget u, who needs u?22:43
popeyoh, i see22:43
knomewxl, no apache2 restart needed, it should be picked up automatically23:27
knomewxl, if you are running multisite, you will need to network enable the theme first23:28
knomepopey, yeah, i will add a sidebar sooner or later :)23:28
popeyknome: okay  😃23:29
knomepopey, what are your other inital reactions?23:29
knomeoh, you said will provide feedback23:29
* knome gets on with things he was doing23:30
popeyknome: the links on the bottom is a bit of a blocker23:30
popeywe flipped back to our other theme for now23:30
popeywill test more later.23:30
knomepopey, what links?23:30
knomeis it something that isn't fixable with a sidebar? :)23:31
popeywell, it's the lack of sidebar, yeah23:31
knomeyeah, well, that'll come23:31
knomemaybe after this fifa match :P23:31
wxlknome: well, i got it to behave once i put it in the RIGHT wp-content/themes directory XD but there's something funky still. i'm going to try a different browser.23:54

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!